Guild Wars 2

Someone posted to remove enrage timers from raids.. please do not listen to him or anyone else agreeing with him. If you want to continue producing good pve content it is required to have enrage. If there is no enrage mechanic everyone will just build the heaviest unkillable specs in the game and slowly whittle the bosses down with zero effort and allot of time. I personally like a challenge, im tired of “Face-Roll 2” I want the raids to remain hard. I love what you guys are doing and for the people complaining about berserker? there will always be people running it. Raids require DPS just as much as they require tanks and heals. its more about strategy than your kitten gear build. If people really want a fix on damage output for raids..look at Engi’s and their insane condition dmg.. mabey it will finally make for a nice fat nerf for them in pvp too. (Love: a thief with no condi cleanse..)

Finally someone brained

I’ll agree with keeping enrage timers, but let’s leave Engineers alone. It’s nice having something besides Elementalists get stacked 2-3 at a time for once.

I dont think the stance was necessarily “Remove them entirely” (to be fair, havent really read the thread much).

My preference (and what I thought the point was), was to stop the HARD enrage timer. Having a static enrage at X number of minutes means it come down to a DPS race, if you have more damage you’ll kill it faster, its that simple.

Soft enrage timers (where the boss simply gets harder over time for example) encourages different play styles, while having the same effect of having an enrage timer (to prevent your proposed super tank group / super heal group / etc that just wins via attrition). With a Soft Enrage timer a group focussing more on support / toughness will take longer to kill the boss, but can handle the stacking damage / soft enrage mechanic longer than other groups, while a DPS focussed comp will kill it faster, but be killed faster by the soft enrage.

This way a Soft Enrage timer promotes multiple play styles, a hard enrage timer simply pushes a gear and dps check.

However, I don’t mind either way, because the content should be tuned to be challenging, its not like an enrage timer makes it impossible. The only complaint I have is it fosters a DPS centric mentality, where guild wars has always promoted “play what you want, as long as you’re good”. Obviously stupid builds shouldnt be able to kill a raid, but some variety outside of maximizing your DPS would be nice.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I’ll agree with keeping enrage timers, but let’s leave Engineers alone. It’s nice having something besides Elementalists get stacked 2-3 at a time for once.

Seriously

That said, I do think condi’s need to be looked at, not to nerf Engi, but just the condi field in general needs some work. Burning is required to do well at this point, not sure that’s right. Bleeds are very weak unless you stack them super high, which some can do but it still can’t compete with burn. It’s no surprise that Engi/Ranger are the two best considering they have a lot of access to burn and solid bleeds as well, I think a nerf of around 15% to the coefficient and base of burning and a raise of like 15% to bleed coefficient would be right around right (maybe even more buff on bleed honestly, but stick to the coefficient). With this to keep guardians viable the amplified Wrath trait needs a buff as well.

This would help any profession with more bleed and little burn (warrior has ok burn, but more bleed so should help them, and surely help necro, can’t say I really know much about other professions with condi).

Anyways it needs a look at, not just nerf Engi.

Arctarius.2649:

Someone posted to remove enrage timers from raids.. please do not listen to him or anyone else agreeing with him. If you want to continue producing good pve content it is required to have enrage. If there is no enrage mechanic everyone will just build the heaviest unkillable specs in the game and slowly whittle the bosses down with zero effort and allot of time. I personally like a challenge, im tired of “Face-Roll 2” I want the raids to remain hard. I love what you guys are doing and for the people complaining about berserker? there will always be people running it. Raids require DPS just as much as they require tanks and heals. its more about strategy than your kitten gear build. If people really want a fix on damage output for raids..look at Engi’s and their insane condition dmg.. mabey it will finally make for a nice fat nerf for them in pvp too. (Love: a thief with no condi cleanse..)

^^This +R9K

Yeah definitely agreed don’t remove enrage timers. That being said I don’t think condi engi needs a nerf. You have to remember to get out that top DPS you need to have perfect rotations and the enemy not moving outside of your fields. Realistically there DPS is just fine.

Eh, give boss health regen. If DPS < #, you are simply not doing enough damage to overcome it = loss (you can keep going for 2 hours if you want, but hp will just stay where it is). Oh, to make it more fun also require keeping poison uptime at 100% to lower the regen to levels that the raid can overcome.

Raid wide damage that has increasing ticks with time will force dps check just as well if you balance it correctly. Eventually it’ll tick for 20k+ one shotting most of the players in raid causing a wipe. Full bunker might survive a few extra ticks, but due to the loss of damage they won’t be able to gain anything from it before massive ticks will overcome any extra sustain the raid has.

I have no problems with dps checks. I just feel that the ticking clock is…uninspired.

I do agree that not all rage timers should simply be clocks; ANet can and should implement more sophisticated means and effects to achieve the same thing in other encounters. The core idea that raids are time-limited, however, must stay.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I do agree that not all rage timers should simply be clocks; ANet can and should implement more sophisticated means and effects to achieve the same thing in other encounters. The core idea that raids are time-limited, however, must stay.

I’m fine with enrage timers, I’m happy to fight bosses with them, and I’ll enjoy them. And here’s the but, do we want another 2 Ele, 1 Thief, 1 Guardian, 1 PS Warrior situation? There will always be a meta, and that’s fine, but surely we don’t want a restrictive meta? Surely we’d rather see a situation like LF 1 Might Stack, 1 Reflect, 1 Stealth, 2 high DPS? There we can take a Herald, PS Warrior, or D/D Elementalist for the might stack, and a Mesmer or Guardian for Reflects, and a Mesmer, Engineer, or Thief for Stealth, and finally, for High Damage, we have quite a bit of choice, since a lot of classes can provide good damage, if they’re not compared to Elementalists.

I’m talking in 5 man terms, and this isn’t going to help for translating the analogy to raiding, but I feel it’s still valid. Do we want to feel pressured into only going with the highest damage composition possible to finish the raid? I don’t, and I can’t imagine many folk enjoy not being able to player Rangers, Necromancers, and Mesmers (Ignore the rapidly shifting meta, it’ll just be different classes that are irrelevant instead).

Enrage timers encourage high damage compositions, and that’s a bad thing. We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible.

Now, we haven’t touched on the raid with the Mastery’s in play, so we might be going in only partially prepared, and ArenaNet said we’d want ‘Something Else’ instead of Slaying Potions, and I don’t think we had that either, so there’s something else we’re missing, and these might make the Enrage Timer feel less restrictive, and I feel this is all worth considering.

As I played the raid, without Mastery’s (Gliding DPS needs a huge buff, it’s terrible), and without ‘Something Else’, in a group built with the words “Who wants to raid?” with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, and later 1 Tank/Healer, and the rest Damage, we were going to be scraping the timer.

But let’s look at the Vale Guardian as not a boss in a raid, but as the first boss: Does the Vale Guardian ensure that players are good enough for raiding? If you can’t beat that timer, is the Vale Guardian saying you don’t deserve to try the rest of the fights? Alternatively, is this meant to be warming us up, into raiding?

TL:DR: There’s too many ways to look at this to say either “Ditch the Enrage Timer” or “Keep the Enrage Timer”. I also think it’s worth ArenaNet considering both camps of thought.

Enrage timers are fine – they should be part of the raid. Otherwise raids will become pointless and boring and not to mention very easy really quickly.

Undoer.6381:

I’m fine with enrage timers, I’m happy to fight bosses with them, and I’ll enjoy them. And here’s the but, do we want another 2 Ele, 1 Thief, 1 Guardian, 1 PS Warrior situation? There will always be a meta, and that’s fine, but surely we don’t want a restrictive meta? Surely we’d rather see a situation like LF 1 Might Stack, 1 Reflect, 1 Stealth, 2 high DPS? There we can take a Herald, PS Warrior, or D/D Elementalist for the might stack, and a Mesmer or Guardian for Reflects, and a Mesmer, Engineer, or Thief for Stealth, and finally, for High Damage, we have quite a bit of choice, since a lot of classes can provide good damage, if they’re not compared to Elementalists.

I’m talking in 5 man terms, and this isn’t going to help for translating the analogy to raiding, but I feel it’s still valid. Do we want to feel pressured into only going with the highest damage composition possible to finish the raid? I don’t, and I can’t imagine many folk enjoy not being able to player Rangers, Necromancers, and Mesmers (Ignore the rapidly shifting meta, it’ll just be different classes that are irrelevant instead).

Enrage timers encourage high damage compositions, and that’s a bad thing. We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible.

Now, we haven’t touched on the raid with the Mastery’s in play, so we might be going in only partially prepared, and ArenaNet said we’d want ‘Something Else’ instead of Slaying Potions, and I don’t think we had that either, so there’s something else we’re missing, and these might make the Enrage Timer feel less restrictive, and I feel this is all worth considering.

As I played the raid, without Mastery’s (Gliding DPS needs a huge buff, it’s terrible), and without ‘Something Else’, in a group built with the words “Who wants to raid?” with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, and later 1 Tank/Healer, and the rest Damage, we were going to be scraping the timer.

But let’s look at the Vale Guardian as not a boss in a raid, but as the first boss: Does the Vale Guardian ensure that players are good enough for raiding? If you can’t beat that timer, is the Vale Guardian saying you don’t deserve to try the rest of the fights? Alternatively, is this meant to be warming us up, into raiding?

TL:DR: There’s too many ways to look at this to say either “Ditch the Enrage Timer” or “Keep the Enrage Timer”. I also think it’s worth ArenaNet considering both camps of thought.

“We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible. "

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta! Support ( both offensive and defense, AKA might, vuln, reflects, condi removal, stealth etc etc etc ), control ( CCs, definitely more important in these raids ) and finally damage. It’s just support doesn’t come in the form of gear. And if anet ditched the enrage timer raids would no longer be challenging at all. Just go defensive enough to not have to worry about dying and just grind the boss down. And all for what? So that you can wear different armor? I’m all up for build diversity, but I am NOT up for making CHALLENGING group content facerole.

Arctarius.2649:

Someone posted to remove enrage timers from raids.. please do not listen to him or anyone else agreeing with him. If you want to continue producing good pve content it is required to have enrage. If there is no enrage mechanic everyone will just build the heaviest unkillable specs in the game and slowly whittle the bosses down with zero effort and allot of time.

Like it happens in dungeons already
…oh wait, it doesn’t. Surprise surprise.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta!

You might look closer at the current calculations as to what will be the best setup.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

“We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible. "

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta! Support ( both offensive and defense, AKA might, vuln, reflects, condi removal, stealth etc etc etc ), control ( CCs, definitely more important in these raids ) and finally damage. It’s just support doesn’t come in the form of gear. And if anet ditched the enrage timer raids would no longer be challenging at all. Just go defensive enough to not have to worry about dying and just grind the boss down. And all for what? So that you can wear different armor? I’m all up for build diversity, but I am NOT up for making CHALLENGING group content facerole.

The Might and Vuln stacking part are simply an aspect of getting the highest damage possible on the boss. It’s an offensive support role, and it’s also filled 9 times out of 10 by classes who put out the most damage whilst fulfilling that role, and it’s still part of ensuring the group has the highest damage possible, and because only the highest damage offensive supports are taken it restricts the classes and builds we can take. I’m not interested in just wearing different armour, I’m interested in seeing fewer, or preferably zero, classes left out, just because they don’t bring either Vulnerability, Might Stacking, or High Damage.

I want CHALLENGING group content to be just that, but Challenging shouldn’t mean “Exclusive to only the most viable classes with the most viable build”. Why take any Condi other than an Engi, for example, when they’re so much better at it than anything else, and we’ve got this Enrage Timer breathing down our neck? Why take any other mightstack than a Phalanx Strength warrior? A D/D Ele can might stack, a Thief can using their Shortbow on someone elses fields (And there’s enough fields about), but they won’t do as much damage, so they’re not welcome. In Dungeons, we can take these things, we don’t, because the 2 minute time difference is apparently unforgivable, but it’s easy enough to fill the role of Might Stack with either of them, and go a little bit slower, but we can’t afford to go a little bit slower with an enrage timer.

An Enrage timer, in my opinion, shouldn’t be a concern for a group that has composed itself for the maximum damage output possible, including Offensive Supports, and the highest damage classes that can provide those supports. It should be a concern for groups stacking obscene amounts of Tanky Stats, like Toughness, Vitality, or Healing Power, it should be a concern for groups that do not consider Offensive Supports at all (No Vuln or Might), and for players who don’t know their rotations at all, and just press every button like a game of whack-a-mole. However, like I said in my last post: We don’t know what it will be like on release, with the inclusion of Masteries and ‘Something Else’, with those, the Enrage Timer may become trivial, and I’d be more worried about the time it takes to kill the boss being too short for a Raid Boss.

This Enrage Timer brings up the issue of balance far more than any other mechanic in that fight, plenty of classes can put out enough Condi Damage to kill the Red Guardian at the split, and enough classes can remove Boons effectively enough that a Mesmer or Chronomancer is simply better, not vital.

Time for a lesson.

Enrages timers are thought of by dummies a “dps checks.” Well that’s true, to an extent. But everything is a give an take. If you can’t pass the “dps check” initially, you have to pull resources from support to bring additional DPS.

But that change could/should result in your team being under greater pressure to play perfectly mechanically and may put too much strain on the capabilities of your remaining support classes. Since that can easily cascade into your support failing and causing a wipe, the enrage timer essentially becomes a support-gate.

The entire dynamic of raiding is based around the push-pull of DPS vs Support. Bring enough dps to beat the enrage timer but also bring enough support to actually get to use that DPS. When the enrage timer is tuned properly, it’s a beautiful challenge and your margin of victory or defeat should be a razor’s edge.

Astralporing.1957:

Arctarius.2649:

Someone posted to remove enrage timers from raids.. please do not listen to him or anyone else agreeing with him. If you want to continue producing good pve content it is required to have enrage. If there is no enrage mechanic everyone will just build the heaviest unkillable specs in the game and slowly whittle the bosses down with zero effort and allot of time.

Like it happens in dungeons already
…oh wait, it doesn’t. Surprise surprise.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta!

You might look closer at the current calculations as to what will be the best setup.

The current setup for the first raid boss? OK. Blinds for the circles on the ground that tick damage/healing to survive them. Protection too. And just take a look at dungeons. Reflects are taken yet they are normerly not a DPS increase. Same goes for condition removal. And aegis in fractals. etc etc etc. You see?

@Undoer

" I’m interested in seeing fewer, or preferably zero, classes left out, just because they don’t bring either Vulnerability, Might Stacking, or High Damage."

Your in luck again! Classes aren’t left out for just those reasons. Revenant can provide boon duration + protection+fury. Warrior has banners. Ranger has frost spirit, spotter, and sun spirit.

“I want CHALLENGING group content to be just that, but Challenging shouldn’t mean “Exclusive to only the most viable classes with the most viable build”.”

Well removing the enrage timer would remove the CHALLENGING from challenging group content. And that’s why it’s a bad idea. And there will always be a meta. Buffing other builds such as nomads won’t somehow prevent there being a most optimal comp.

“Why take any Condi other than an Engi, for example, when they’re so much better at it than anything else, and we’ve got this Enrage Timer breathing down our neck?”

Condition damage ranger so you don’t have to take that ridiculous sword auto attack and you can provide buffs.

“Why take any other mightstack than a Phalanx Strength warrior? A D/D Ele can might stack, a Thief can using their Shortbow on someone elses fields (And there’s enough fields about), but they won’t do as much damage, so they’re not welcome.”

So your suggestion would be?? Buff d/d ele so Phalanx Strength warrior isn’t taken? Then in two weeks you will be like buff Phalanx Strength warrior!