Guild Wars 2

So are not all classes good in dungeons? Cant all classes have some kind of role that makes them very viable in different situations? I mean it cant just be guardians, warriors, eles, and mesmers. Every profesion can bring somehting to the party right?

No.

/15chars

No.

/15chars

Most classes have their own utility, mostly Eles and Necro viable as a replacement, not exactly a necessity for a group.

And then there is bear class with a ranger pet that can summon spirits for mostly timekilling/masochistic purposes.

If it is just a group of friends who are probably only going to do each path once they are not going to notice anything and will have fun doing it. Which is probably how this game was meant to be played.

You might have a big debate on your hands if more people see this thread and post. War/Guard/Mes vs bringing other classes is one of the most popular topics to discuss about.

I like Slither’s take on it; I have tons of fun running dungeons with friends even if our party does not consist of a certain kind of class. Along with that note, once you play with that group, you might eventually find the perfect dungeon class set up for your needs (speed run/casual/farming/etc).

“Good” is a very ambiguous term. You are correct in saying that " Every profession can bring something to the party," this is true 100%. The reason why many people run Guards, Warriors, Mesmers, and even Eles in dungeons is that the Guard/War/Mes set up is arguably the closest to a “Trinity (of DPS/Tank/Utility)” that we have in GW2. The general consensus is that:

1. Warriors have the best DPS in the game
2. Having a competent Guardian arguably is the best factor in many runs
3. Mesmers, though in some occasions not necessary, bring an overall finishing touch

Of course, many of the speed runs that have been posted on youtube/forums consist of the War/Guard/Mes or some variation of those classes. Does that mean other classes can’t speed run faster than the War/Guard/Mes? Of course not; But I haven’t had the urge to watch every speed run video and compare the times to War/Guard/Mes times.

War/Guard/Mes is situational. If you’re speed running CoF 1, you probably don’t need to bring a Guard. If you’re doing a LV 48 Fractal, you might ditch the mesmer for another Guard. It really depends on what you’re trying to do.

You should try using the search function.

In short, No.

Longer version. No, the main dungeon classes do it better.

Every class is viable in a dungeon. If you take a Ranger into a dungeon, it will not literally do nothing and it will do more for the run than if you had just 4 man’d the instance, it isn’t a detriment in terms of “oh this class is totally kitten we may as well have a leecher”. It’s seen as a detriment because it takes up the party slot that a more useless profession could have filled.

However; there is a very large difference in efficiency between the classes. The reason why Guardians/Eles/Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers are popular is because they all excel in a particular area. For example Eles, Warriors and thieves are all top tier DPS. Guardians and Mesmer’s are top tier support (Guardians actually do a lot of damage as well, if built for it). The thing that has people saying “No I don’t want your poopy ranger/necro/engineer”, is that they don’t really excel at anything. They don’t provide anything that another class couldn’t, while bringing even more to the table, or perhaps just providing it better.

This is just a brief explanation, but I think it should give a basic understanding of why some people treat some classes like they do. Basically, every class is viable. You can do play what you want, where you want and you can be successful with it. However in terms of efficiency, or even just run stability, it is quite desirable to have less rangers/necros/engi’s and more warriors/guardians etc.

I think that this is a pretty good quote:

Slither Shade.4782:

If it is just a group of friends who are probably only going to do each path once they are not going to notice anything and will have fun doing it. Which is probably how this game was meant to be played.

Krispy.7809:

…very viable in different situations…

Correct.

Dungeon farming = not different situations.

There are some classes that are kinda must have because they make it a lot easier (guardian, warrior, mesmer). Other spots are up for grabs.

Btw has every player the right to build his or her group like they want. You dont get a spot in other groups? Open your own.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Every class is viable in a dungeon. If you take a Ranger into a dungeon, it will not literally do nothing and it will do more for the run than if you had just 4 man’d the instance, it isn’t a detriment in terms of “oh this class is totally kitten we may as well have a leecher”. It’s seen as a detriment because it takes up the party slot that a more useless profession could have filled.

However; there is a very large difference in efficiency between the classes. The reason why Guardians/Eles/Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers are popular is because they all excel in a particular area. For example Eles, Warriors and thieves are all top tier DPS. Guardians and Mesmer’s are top tier support (Guardians actually do a lot of damage as well, if built for it). The thing that has people saying “No I don’t want your poopy ranger/necro/engineer”, is that they don’t really excel at anything. They don’t provide anything that another class couldn’t, while bringing even more to the table, or perhaps just providing it better.

This is just a brief explanation, but I think it should give a basic understanding of why some people treat some classes like they do. Basically, every class is viable. You can do play what you want, where you want and you can be successful with it. However in terms of efficiency, or even just run stability, it is quite desirable to have less rangers/necros/engi’s and more warriors/guardians etc.

I think that this is a pretty good quote:

Slither Shade.4782:

If it is just a group of friends who are probably only going to do each path once they are not going to notice anything and will have fun doing it. Which is probably how this game was meant to be played.

What about Ranger pets drawing aggro when you don’t want them to? What if in COE p1 you want to knock Bjarl against a wall and he just runs at your bear?

That, coupled with dreadful DPS does mean the class is literally doing nothing, and worst of all you’re slowing down everyone else in your team.

No.

/15 sexy charrs dancing.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Every class is viable in a dungeon. If you take a Ranger into a dungeon, it will not literally do nothing and it will do more for the run than if you had just 4 man’d the instance,

When said ranger is a wrongbow ranger it can actually be much worse than 4 manning the instance. When you’re balling mobs up and cleaving them and suddenly dat ranger uses knockback and you’re wasting time chasing after mobs and not really cleaving as much as you can, said ranger actually made the run go for the worse and contributed negative dps since you’d have more dps without the wrongbow user.

Oh, and dem piercing arrows and aggro..

Nikaido.3457:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Every class is viable in a dungeon. If you take a Ranger into a dungeon, it will not literally do nothing and it will do more for the run than if you had just 4 man’d the instance,

When said ranger is a wrongbow ranger it can actually be much worse than 4 manning the instance. When you’re balling mobs up and cleaving them and suddenly dat ranger uses knockback and you’re wasting time chasing after mobs and not really cleaving as much as you can, said ranger actually made the run go for the worse and contributed negative dps since you’d have more dps without the wrongbow user.

Oh, and dem piercing arrows and aggro..

That’s a really poor argument, too be honest. You’re taking scenarios that are completely player controlled and using them as examples to make an argument against the class. A Guardian can knock back a boss when the warriors are trying to DPS, a Mesmer can curtain something away, a warrior can rush away into the distance, miles away from the boss.

Let’s not play the game of ‘List how poopy players can ruin runs with their class’. There’s another thread dedicated for that kind of thing.

For the record, I don’t have a Ranger or a Necro, I just enjoy playing the impartial role.

The other classes can but none of them fit the stereotype as well as the ranger. Particularly as most rangers player are attracted to the ranger for the wrongbow. You don’t really see a lot of players state how much they wanted to play ranger because of the Greatsword.

The problem with the ranger class goes beyond its own class mechanic, it attracts a certain type of player, that seeks it for the whole idea behind playing a ranged class in the first place.

Nikaido.3457:

The problem with the ranger class goes beyond its own class mechanic, it attracts a certain type of player, that seeks it for the whole idea behind playing a ranged class in the first place.

That, I can agree with.

Stop making these same threads over and over. It turns into the same 8-10 people arguing over the same 2-3 things which turns into a who’s is bigger contest that Is only stopped by another dumb thread like this where it gets started all over again.

Anet does not give a kitten right now. Lets say you buff rangers, then there OP in pvp and you will have the pvp people kittening. The only fix is to split the skills for pvp and pve but they will not put the time into that in the first couple years of release.

The first 2 years of this game all you are going to see is them pumping out as much gem shop content as they possibly can while they have a nice size player base to profit off of. This whole game is geared towards people spending money in their gem shop with real cash.

They have made it blatantly obvious by how hard it is to obtain in game gold. They nerf all the farming spots, they charge you to WP, they charge you to sell something on the TP. They even set up the achievements so that people will WP all around the world map forcing more of that in game gold out f the economy.

As of right now this entire game is a race for cash to Anet as it should be. They make a game thy want profit. So until the population moves on to other games and only the hardcores are left stop making these threads because its not their main concern at the moment. Their vigorously working on a new a new back piece for the gem shop.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Nikaido.3457:

The problem with the ranger class goes beyond its own class mechanic, it attracts a certain type of player, that seeks it for the whole idea behind playing a ranged class in the first place.

That, I can agree with.

Thirded. Just check out the ranger forums – it’s a hotbed of dysfunction. It really is the mentality of the players that gravitate to the class more than it is the class itself.

Still, pets are a liability in dungeons and there’s nothing rangers particularly excel at.

Nikaido.3457:

The other classes can but none of them fit the stereotype as well as the ranger. Particularly as most rangers player are attracted to the ranger for the wrongbow. You don’t really see a lot of players state how much they wanted to play ranger because of the Greatsword.

The problem with the ranger class goes beyond its own class mechanic, it attracts a certain type of player, that seeks it for the whole idea behind playing a ranged class in the first place.

Right.
Even in my case where I’m using ReefDrake & Greatsword 90% of the time, and only switching to Bear/Wrongbow to “PoolShoot” or lure one of the straggler mobs back into the heap with the rest of the ones being AOE’d… there’s still a HUGE disparity in the GROUP DPS that it can provide when compared to my Guardian who is even a bit on the squishy side TBH. My guardian for instance keeping 12 stack of might on the whole team and also has a Hammer in order to get those straggler mobs back in the heap where they belong…. PLUS better reflecting thats almost Perma, Elite spammable MEGAHEALZ, and just plain better aggro management in general.

Yeah … you can * play * support ranger or support engie if you want to (I’ve done it myself!), but why bother?? Guardian and Ele do it so much better. Hell even Mesmer does it better now with how badly Beastmastery got kittened in the Kit

It doesn’t matter how well you play these sub-par classes. B/c the disparity between them and the truly great support classes is like night and day and you’re only taking it where the sun don’t shine when you try. It even works this way with pure-twitch games. Sure you could be an awesome sniper and kill half their team yourself in CSS with the Autosnipers, but why when you could be killing their WHOLE team with the AWP?

x per fection x.2096:

snip

I started off agreeing with you but the more I read, the less I agreed.

I do agree that they need to split PvP and PvE skills. This is by far the single biggest reason for the imbalance (maybe other than dev laziness or lack of testing).

However all the stuff you mentioned (nerf farming spots, wp fees, TP %) is to keep inflation down. This does NOT drive people to the gem store, because the gold to gem ration is based off a set amount. If it were a constant 2g=100gems then you would have a point. But the gem prices inflate and deflate (indirectly) with gold.

^ + 1 … if we were big on playing the Market and compensating for macroflation, we wouldn’t be here in the dungeon forums, we’d be on the BLTC forum. Dungeons are where economics go to die

I love doing dungeon runs on my ranger. I play SB – S/D, with high crit and condition damage. I feel I bring something to the group. I may not be pumping out the DPS like my warrior does but setup I have for my Ranger is fun for me. I also micro manage my pet so it doesn’t die to quick.

I also play with my guild and we are a good group of players, not great but good. We understand the classes we play and we understand the different mechanics of the different dungeon paths so we can bring almost any class and still have a successful run. It may be a little longer then some but it is fun doing it.

When I picked the ranger as another class to play I looked at for the point of view, is it fun for me, what do I bring to the group, and can I stay alive. I never once really looked at the hiding behind the range aspect. I really love the sword/dagger setup, as it allows me to stack poison and other conditions. But I do run my ele and war a lot in dungeons also, really depends on which dungeon, what are the other classes in the group and how much time I have to do the dungeons.

Hjorje.9453:

I love doing dungeon runs on my ranger. I play SB – S/D, with high crit and condition damage. I feel I bring something to the group. I may not be pumping out the DPS like my warrior does but setup I have for my Ranger is fun for me. I also micro manage my pet so it doesn’t die to quick.

I also play with my guild and we are a good group of players, not great but good. We understand the classes we play and we understand the different mechanics of the different dungeon paths so we can bring almost any class and still have a successful run. It may be a little longer then some but it is fun doing it.

When I picked the ranger as another class to play I looked at for the point of view, is it fun for me, what do I bring to the group, and can I stay alive. I never once really looked at the hiding behind the range aspect. I really love the sword/dagger setup, as it allows me to stack poison and other conditions. But I do run my ele and war a lot in dungeons also, really depends on which dungeon, what are the other classes in the group and how much time I have to do the dungeons.

While it’s great you are having fun, that is not ‘bringing something to the group.’ You say you feel you bring something to the group, but feelings aren’t the same as facts. It would be better to explain just what it is you are doing that brings something another class cant do better. I too enjoy my ranger, but came to the sad realization that it’s not providing as much as me playing another class in any area other than aoe cc’s and a healing field which aren’t really needed.

Hjorje.9453:

I love doing dungeon runs on my ranger. I play SB – S/D, with high crit and condition damage. I feel I bring something to the group. I may not be pumping out the DPS like my warrior does but setup I have for my Ranger is fun for me. I also micro manage my pet so it doesn’t die to quick.

I also play with my guild and we are a good group of players, not great but good. We understand the classes we play and we understand the different mechanics of the different dungeon paths so we can bring almost any class and still have a successful run. It may be a little longer then some but it is fun doing it.

When I picked the ranger as another class to play I looked at for the point of view, is it fun for me, what do I bring to the group, and can I stay alive. I never once really looked at the hiding behind the range aspect. I really love the sword/dagger setup, as it allows me to stack poison and other conditions. But I do run my ele and war a lot in dungeons also, really depends on which dungeon, what are the other classes in the group and how much time I have to do the dungeons.

Okay, now watch a full zerk speed run of any dungeon of your choice and tell me how much you bring in comparison to the players there.

You know, I should probably record one of my COE runs, the only support I ever need to give my party is my blocks and maybe condi removal for alpha’s burning or if somebody misses a dodge and gets 6 bleed stacks, apart from that I’m full DPS and just join my party in bursting down everything mercilessly.

You might want to clarify what types of dungeon runs you’re interested in. If you’re interested in speed runs, you should have a zerker guardian, warrior, or mesmer, even if you want to experiment with other classes/builds.

If you’re just interested in fun, easy, successful dungeon runs, then most professions can bring plenty to runs if played and built well. You won’t bring as much support as a full support guardian, or as much damage as a zerker warrior, but there are plenty of builds that can bring a mix of useful damage, support, and utility in random dungeon runs. A great player of a non-meta class will still bring more to most PUGs than an average player of a meta class.

Well figuring I watch my numbers and can see the damage I am doing to mobs and watching the numbers for condition damage I am bringing something to the group. Also my guild doesn’t require specific classes to run dungeons and we have went with 4 rangers in a group and had no problems what so ever with the run.

@colesy, maybe you didn’t read my post very good, I did say when I didn’t have a lot of time to run a dungeon, I would go on my warrior to speed it up. I am not all about the most efficient way of doing a dungeon path. I am about having the most fun and enjoying my time with my friends online. Rangers can bring stuff to a group if played right.

@swiftpaw, I could also say the same thing about most other classes, what do they bring that another class can’t. Some classes do things better then others but they all can contribute to a run. Warriors are king when it comes to DPS, but does that mean other classes can’t DPS, no it doesn’t, it does mean a fight will last a little longer because they can’t do as much DPS as fast as a warrior can.

Most of these threads look at the most efficient way of doing a dungeon. Of course the standard setup is going to be the best way to do it. But when it comes to fun doing them, peoples opinions are going to differ. I don’t mind speed runs, but I have fun just doing the run in general. It doesn’t matter to me whether I am on my Ranger, Ele, Warrior, they are all fun for me. Just like the responses to my post, I never talked about the run being the most efficient, I talked about I can see what I bring to a group in a dungeon run and my group can see it and it is fun for us. Otherwise they would say bring your ele, your ranger is crap.

Hjorje.9453:

@swiftpaw, I could also say the same thing about most other classes, what do they bring that another class can’t. Some classes do things better then others but they all can contribute to a run. Warriors are king when it comes to DPS, but does that mean other classes can’t DPS, no it doesn’t, it does mean a fight will last a little longer because they can’t do as much DPS as fast as a warrior can.

Yes, a warrior brings dps but can’t do things other classes can. However, a ranger cant bring anything that another class cant do better. You are contributing but not as much as you could on any other class speed run or not.

SRY! i didnt know people would argue about this. im newish

1) Diversity in single dungeon instances
Anet could make the critters in the dungeon more sophisticated and varied, to make it viable to play other classes than the main classes (war/guard/mes). Some could only be vulnerable to conditions (making a the classes with the best condition damage preferable), some could always deal 100k damage (making classes that are best at blinding preferable), some could reflect 100% of physical damage, etc and so forth. And Anet could remember to add closed gates, to avoid skipping those.

2) Character classes
I do think Anet has made a terrible mistake with the game design, by making every class able to do almost everything. When they do this, some classes (at least the way they have designed the system now) become undesirable in many situations. To promote playing other classes than the mains, they should limit some abilities to one class only, like they have done with portal for mesmer. Limit fear to necro, mass stealth to theif, etc.

3) Slow vs fast runs
The other point is (and I’ve seen this in several threads on the forum): Some players simply don’t understand (or they like to troll) that they have two different views; one being ‘I don’t mind if my dungeon runs takes hours’ and the other being ‘I want my dungeon runs to be as fast and smooth as possible’. I prefer mine to be fast and smooth and if someone prefers to wipe, be slow, bring magic find gear, or the like, then they should go with their peers. Without making this view clear, they go on arguing that this and such is just as good as other stuff (because they don’t mind how long a run takes). Trolling or stupidity – one never knows.

4) Relevance
Could you pls move the ranger/necro/whatever hate to some other thread created for the purpose and make this thread more constructive. Ty.

sorenrye.7238:

But I think anet has made a terrible mistake with the game design, by making every class able to do almost everything. When they do this, some classes (at least the way they have designed the system now) become undesirable in many situations.

This is what happens when you: minimize roles; provide everyone with resources to avoid damage; and reduce the impact of healing others and CC in PvE — while basing your class design philosophies around PvP role differentiation.

x per fection x.2096:

Stop making these same threads over and over. It turns into the same 8-10 people arguing over the same 2-3 things which turns into a who’s is bigger contest that Is only stopped by another dumb thread like this where it gets started all over again.

Anet does not give a kitten right now. Lets say you buff rangers, then there OP in pvp and you will have the pvp people kittening. The only fix is to split the skills for pvp and pve but they will not put the time into that in the first couple years of release.

The first 2 years of this game all you are going to see is them pumping out as much gem shop content as they possibly can while they have a nice size player base to profit off of. This whole game is geared towards people spending money in their gem shop with real cash.

They have made it blatantly obvious by how hard it is to obtain in game gold. They nerf all the farming spots, they charge you to WP, they charge you to sell something on the TP. They even set up the achievements so that people will WP all around the world map forcing more of that in game gold out f the economy.

As of right now this entire game is a race for cash to Anet as it should be. They make a game thy want profit. So until the population moves on to other games and only the hardcores are left stop making these threads because its not their main concern at the moment. Their vigorously working on a new a new back piece for the gem shop.

A very good expression of how I feel.

Krispy.7809:

SRY! i didnt know people would argue about this. im newish

Sorry, but I dont quite get why you openend this thread if you didnt want people to discuss the topic?

x per fection x.2096:

Anet does not give a kitten right now. […] they are focusing on making new back pieces for the gem shop

I agree. The funny thing is; the reason I haven’t bought any gems is because it’s so obvious that we are still beta testing (you can even lose the stuff you buy with gold due to bugs, and support doesn’t give a crap). So do they expect you to spend cash, under these circumstances?

No, but there are 3 classes that are so much better than every other class that it’s a waste of time to even consider anything else.