Guild Wars 2

Sergoros.4398:

rozcinana.7249:

I have been leveling my new guardian in AC so I’ve done a lot of runs this weekend and didn’t have any problems getting a group. However I noticed a lot of my 80 teammates going down or dying a lot more than me so level ain’t nothing but a number it seems!

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

This is the perfect example of those who need to be carry by a group of 80s because they found the low level dungeons “too hard”.

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

rozcinana.7249:

Sergoros.4398:

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

Your first paragraph makes a good point about aggro that I didn’t think of before I posted my previous comment, but then you ruined it with the second paragraph by calling players under 80 leechers and claiming that we don’t add anything of use to the group. Anyone that meets or is above the recommended level for a dungeon shouldn’t be considered a leecher. And being complimented and thanked for my contributions despite my character being in her 40-50s in a few of my PUGs over the weekend tells me that I sure as hell did something for the group. Don’t generalize, some of us “lowbies” know what we’re doing and know how to maximize what we got.

Boy, this forum is great for weeding out people I would never want to play with.

Well… that was intended. I just like to use strong words. Thats make it more fair and fun, then using “player, who brings a little less, then others in his team”

Want it or not, but lvl 80 is carrying lowlevels, no matter how u look at it. Thats not to bad. But thats how it should be looked. Mby its true, and u had rly bad team, where u was usefull enough. But thats it. In pro team u would be falling out, cause of lack of efficiency.

I dont bring non 80’s into my dungeons unless:

1. They are guildie/friend
2. Im feelin a charitable mood

Every person in a dungeon party has a value. Their value is dependant on several factors. Their individual skill player, their gear, their trait setup. By limiting the level to 80, you lower the risk of a “bad” gear or lack of trait points. Keep in mind, it only LOWERS the risk, it doesn’t get rid of it. People in general want as low risk as possible since they can’t possibly know how skilled the player is until they’re inside already.

Meh, I consider myself pretty skilled (lawlz, enter elitist joke here). I can rock fotm on my 80 ele, so I thought hey, I can grab a guild group and do it on my lvl 40 mesmer.

Unfortunately I felt very weak and I wasn’t contributing to my group much. I was getting downed a lot and I felt like I was a burden on my guild group. I would have felt a lot worse in a PUG.

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Ah yes, the weapon traits. Granted lower cooldown on things like the Prestige or Chaos Storm is nice, it’s hardly a trait someone needs to be able to swap to that weapon and use it for what effects it has. I was unaware Warden’s Feedback had any effect on the damage reflected projectiles had, besides retaliation, I thought it just made things reflected. However, if such a trait is pivotal, it’s only a Master trait and can be obtained by a lvl 35 character. Healing mantras, on the other hand, are a gimmick at best.

There are a few traits for mesmer that really turn their effects up, but they are hardly going to net you so much of a difference that a lvl 80 mesmer will completely overshadow.

-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

This is the perfect example of those who need to be carry by a group of 80s because they found the low level dungeons “too hard”.

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.

I think it’s a fact that pugs do better with 80s only than with lower levels, the difference is quite noticable most of the time. I’ve done both full 80 groups and groups with alts and with our alts it takes us longer to kill things and the dungeon is a little more challenging than just killing through with our 80s, reason of course are things already mention like gear/traits/runes and sigils.

Isslair.4908:

So what’s the point in talking about bad players at all? They’ll be bad regardless of level. And even then lvl 80 gives him chanse to survive the mistake.

The only argument all these leacher-defenders are using is that low levels are super-skilled pros and all the lvl 80s are bad braindead people.
This is really ridiculous.

Now this is such a strawman.
If one can’t play correctly on a lvl 80 character with hundred hours of gameplay, he won’t be able to play on a low level character with no traits, skills and experience.

Like you said, bad players will be bad regardless of level and good players will be good regardless of level. Having better equipment will only be a slight push.
Of course, except that there aren’t many players that roll the same profession…Someone who played a necromancer won’t necessarily be good as an elementalist.

Thus what I meant by my “straw man”.
You don’t hundreds of hour of gameplay to have a level 80 character in full exotic. And some players are still awful with hundreds of hour of gameplay.
Someone could have chosen an elementalist as his first character, got carried by his guild through dungeons, only to figure out that his awful as an elementalist and is more comfortable and better when playing a guardian.

Just to throw my 2 cents into the discussion. One thing I’ve noticed is that the general understanding of how the leveling system works within dungeons appears to be misunderstood. I will agree that looking for a group of lvl 80’s is likely to yield a faster run, as this group probably is properly geared.

However: I ran some tests while leveling an alt, and found that the level/traits are not the most significant factor in determining a player’s effectiveness in a dungeon. It is how well they are geared in proportion to their level. For instance, at level 35 in AC, I saw my power was well about 1,000 (and fully geared at that level). I continued to run this dungeon to level up my character, and noticed my damage getting progressively worst with every level. I wasn’t keeping up with gearing my guy, as my primary focus was speed leveling. What was interesting was the fact that at level 70+, I was dealing less damage than when I was 35.

Now, there are other factors to consider (as I’m not drawing a hard line). I just wanted to share an observation I’ve noticed, which does appear to have more impact than just a simple matter of level. If anything, we should be more concerned if a person is properly geared (if we should concern ourselves with anything imo). Just something to consider you go looking for a group.

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

You are the one having trouble understanding than we can do low level dungeons at the min req lvl at the same speed at any level. You are the one having a hard time undertanding the mechanics of the game.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

You are the one having trouble understanding than we can do low level dungeons at the min req lvl at the same speed at any level. You are the one having a hard time undertanding the mechanics of the game.

Wrong. I did prove my words. Your only proof is the fact, that lowbies and highlevels have same stats in dungeon. But that changes nothing. They still lack traits and experience.

And…as been mentioned…they also lack sigils, runes and food.

Ah yes…thx to another player here…we have another nail in “same stats theory” coffin. After every path in dungeon we getting level up. Usualy. So… After every path, gap in stats between 80 lvl and 35,36,37,38 lvls would grow. Cause he still would wear 35 lvl equip.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

You are the one having trouble understanding than we can do low level dungeons at the min req lvl at the same speed at any level. You are the one having a hard time undertanding the mechanics of the game.

Same skilled player: lvl 80 > lvl 35.

You forget that a person’s skill can compensate for the difference giving you the false conception that you are running same speed with lower levels. You put the best 80’s in a dungeon, you’ll get a record time. You put the same 80’s on a lower lvl character do the dungeon, I guarantee you, they will not beat their record.

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

Thus why I will do it with lower levels. Even with no hugs, if you learned your dodges and brought Vigor boon to CoE you were fine.

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

You obviously either didn’t bother to read what I said or don’t have reading comprehension.

People create 80 only teams or have gear check because they want to get through the dungeon QUICKLY and with the least amount of trouble.

Zenith.7301:

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

Thus why I will do it with lower levels. Even with no hugs, if you learned your dodges and brought Vigor boon to CoE you were fine.

No way. Without hug, they would die instantly. Honestly, even for a full 80 lvl group, alpha without hugs is a Huge Challenge. I can kite him for a while, but, eventualy, he would still get me. I mean path 2/3 alpha. Path 1 is easy.

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

Thus why I will do it with lower levels. Even with no hugs, if you learned your dodges and brought Vigor boon to CoE you were fine.

No way. Without hug, they would die instantly. Honestly, even for a full 80 lvl group, alpha without hugs is a Huge Challenge. I can kite him for a while, but, eventualy, he would still get me. I mean path 2/3 alpha. Path 1 is easy.

You can pretty much dodge every attack of his with vigor up. Every attack of his is both staggered and heavily telegraphed. The autoattack is rough but even then some people can help rez quick if someone can’t handle it.

In most cases you go with people who are 80 especially in pugs. Because you’d like to think they have some kind of experience. It’s hard in some fractals to carry people like the swamp fractal for instance. You atleast like people to know a little bit what they are doing by that point. Not to say everyone 80 is pro but it’s definately a higher chance they are solid at 80.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

Sergoros.4398:

-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.

If the person knows the class, the difference is small. If a person was so useless as to be contributing nothing, yes I would agree. But a skilled player can contribute greatly.

Anyone who thinks, despite all evidence to the contrary, that all sub-80 charas are leechers are elitists.

It’s all about working to ensure a smooth run. You’re more likely to get through without any issues with a team of cap levels than a mix. It’s true. If you don’t like it, make your own group. Then everyone is happy.

Zenith.7301:

You can pretty much dodge every attack of his with vigor up. Every attack of his is both staggered and heavily telegraphed. The autoattack is rough but even then some people can help rez quick if someone can’t handle it.

Autoattk+ all dodges+ u need to attk him all this time = One of this attks would hit ya. Usualy its his autoattk, that manages to hit ya. And if u make even one mistake (for 80 lvl u could make more) – u dead. If even 80 lvl have so much trouble, then low level would be constant “rez me”. Also dont forget his crystal, which not every class have counter for.

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

You can pretty much dodge every attack of his with vigor up. Every attack of his is both staggered and heavily telegraphed. The autoattack is rough but even then some people can help rez quick if someone can’t handle it.

Autoattk+ all dodges+ u need to attk him all this time = One of this attks would hit ya. Usualy its his autoattk, that manages to hit ya. And if u make even one mistake – u dead. If even 80 lvl have so much trouble, then low level would be constant “rez me”. Also dont forget his crystal, which not every class have counter for.

Crucible of Eternity is a recommended level 80 for explorable. No sub-80s should be there anyways.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.

If the person knows the class, the difference is small. If a person was so useless as to be contributing nothing, yes I would agree. But a skilled player can contribute greatly.

Anyone who thinks, despite all evidence to the contrary, that all sub-80 charas are leechers are elitists.

Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.

But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.

I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”

Leo G.4501:

Exotic 80s running low level dungeons ad-nauseum are usually doing it because they’re not good enough to farm the harder dungeons.

I think this is way off the mark. It’s not because they aren’t good enough for other higher level dungeons, it’s because it is more time effective to run the lower dungeons for the reward. The only reason I ran AC was so I could get soldier stats on my pants because the temple vendors don’t sell them and was faster than getting them through WvW. This is the same reason players will farm Fractals more than dungeons too, it is more rewarding. I would rather spend all my time in WvW but due to bad game design, I must subject myself to doing PvE dungeons to get the gear with the attributes I am looking for. I also think it is bad design that 80s must do lower level dungeons for such gear, it would be ideal if there were three dungeon types, story, explorable and then 80 explorable.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”

Again, yes a fully traited 80 will be more effective. That has never been argued. All we are saying is that is that a sub-80, if traited right, is still a great boon. Those missing traits will make it a bit weaker, but it will not make such a difference that they are useless or not worth partying with.

Sergoros.4398:

Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.

But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.

I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”

Recently while running AC story to help a few complete strangers I saw a level 38 (or so; sub-40 anyways) engineer outperform the level 80 warrior in the party. Level honestly means nothing.

And with all of this, you forget that not all 80s are in full exotic/ascended everythings.

Elthurien.8356:

I also think it is bad design that 80s must do lower level dungeons for such gear, it would be ideal if there were three dungeon types, story, explorable and then 80 explorable.

If there were those three dungeon types, which I think most would welcome (myself included), then I would hope it would stop these discussions. Unfortunately, people would still exclude sub-80s due to perceived inadequacy and elitism.

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

You obviously either didn’t bother to read what I said or don’t have reading comprehension.

People create 80 only teams or have gear check because they want to get through the dungeon QUICKLY and with the least amount of trouble.

Call it what ever you like, your staments are just poor excuses of people who cant learn the mechanics of the dungeons. But elitists will be elistists no matter what, they will always hold the old excuses, they are elitists because they dont understand the game, plain and simple.

Go do map comp on your own time to level an alt, but when you do a dungeon just be on an 80. Regardless of how “skilled” you are, you are going to be more of an asset to the team as an 80 than as a sub 80, because the difference is huge. Dungeons in this game are all about experience and decent gear as they really don’t take a tremendous amount of skill.

I could have levelled an 80 in the time some people have been arguing not being an 80 makes no difference in this thread, literally!

Syn Sity.5826:

Go do map comp on your own time to level an alt, but when you do a dungeon just be on an 80. Regardless of how “skilled” you are, you are going to be more of an asset to the team as an 80 than as a sub 80, because the difference is huge. Dungeons in this game are all about experience and decent gear as they really don’t take a tremendous amount of skill.

The difference is not huge. The difference is pretty minor. Remember that gear is downscaled taking into account the best-in-slot rarity for the level in question.

sostronk.8167:

I could have levelled an 80 in the time some people have been arguing not being an 80 makes no difference in this thread, literally!

Yes, you could have. Good for you. And noone has said there is no difference. We have said that there is little difference and exclusion should not be the norm.

We are simply talking of the exclusionary nature of some which is, and should not be, representative of the Guild Wars community as a whole.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”

Again, yes a fully traited 80 will be more effective. That has never been argued. All we are saying is that is that a sub-80, if traited right, is still a great boon. Those missing traits will make it a bit weaker, but it will not make such a difference that they are useless or not worth partying with.

U Can’t be more wrong. Wy would i choose weak char over strong char? He would lack many vital skills, which would make him way weaker. I showed u traits, Losing even 1 of em makes char way weaker. And he would lack more than one. How could u argue after that? Its like choosing handicapped for basketball team. Yep. Best of the best handicapped would pwn worst non-handicapped ppl u could find. But it doesn’t make any difference. Handicapped would still be bad choice.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.

But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.

I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”

Recently while running AC story to help a few complete strangers I saw a level 38 (or so; sub-40 anyways) engineer outperform the level 80 warrior in the party. Level honestly means nothing.

And with all of this, you forget that not all 80s are in full exotic/ascended everythings.

Recently I did dungeon with 59 lvl war and most of the time he was dead on the ground. Among all low lvl chars i played with. 95% of em was dead on the ground. Im showing u what they lack and wy they weaker. U answering with real experience “but sometimes they good!!!!!”. Thats wont do it man. Thats not how numbers work.

Where we disagree is with the statement that “there is little difference”. Its not what I have found in my time playing the game. I do agree exclusion should not be the norm, but it is. No thread with players arguing that there is little difference is going to make a difference, because everyone who has been there and done that knows it takes a long time and can potential cause a wipe on something that would have been quite easy if we were running full 80 exotics. The only people who can change that are from Anet.

All of these arguments just remind me of how arrogant people can be. No compromise, no working together, just do it ‘my’ way or gtfo.

Sigh*

No one wants to play for fun? Or wait, let me guess, some of you are defining fun as the ambitious rush to achieve the highest accolades (so you can impress others I imagine). That’s fun to you? Get the top stuff the fastest way so you can be on top “first”, then what?

I always thought fun in video games was a repetitive thing that came merely from the imagination – think back to when you were a child. The simplest things could get you going for ages.

Now it’s all about ego; selfish bullkitten.

Blackmoon.6837:

All of these arguments just remind me of how arrogant people can be. No compromise, no working together, just do it ‘my’ way or gtfo.

Sigh*

No one wants to play for fun? Or wait, let me guess, some of you are defining fun as the ambitious rush to achieve the highest accolades (so you can impress others I imagine). That’s fun to you? Get the top stuff the fastest way so you can be on top “first”, then what?

I always thought fun in video games was a repetitive thing that came merely from the imagination – think back to when you were a child. The simplest things could get you going for ages.

Now it’s all about ego; selfish bullkitten.

Who said we can’t play for fun? Sometimes we let them in as extra challenge for ourself, for fun…or by charity reasons. Its just not given. If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Usualy it happens if we have enough free time. But when u have only 4 hours to do everything… u can’t afford to slow down.

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

People should chill…sub level 80s are not making your run taking much longer (if it’s even noticable) if they know what they’re doing (i.e. an alt or has run it before). For most dungeons knowledge (of how the paths are run) → skill → level.

IMO if you don’t advertise for 80 only beforehand, you don’t have the right to kick someone below 80 if they are high enough for the cap, 35, 45, 55 etc

Have you guys who feel “80s only” is elitist considered maybe organizing your own dungeons with sub-80s only? Serious question. The majority of us aren’t going to be persuaded, so why not even things out a bit.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

You are right of course. But unless it’s friends/guildies, I believe with PUGs they usually want to minimise the risk of badly skilled players. Sub-80s are well capable of all three of course, especially if they already have multiple 80s. The thing is you don’t go into a party and holler out I have 5 80s all fully geared but just wanting to play this. And people usually are more willing to bet that a level 80 should possibly be more familiar with a game, experimented more, and did his research.

I actually preferred to look at their achievement points. That’s more telling. Usually (USUALLY, not always) if their points are high and they bring in an alt, they are usually OK. Sub-1k points with a sub-80 means they are really new with the game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

IndigoSundown.5419:

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

You cannot guarantee that anyone will be fully geared. Chances are that a sub-80 will be running decent gear in dungeons as they need to. Also, please see the links here and here for information on Dynamic Leveling and how it does balance out stats between high and low level charas.

Nice avoiding my question. I am aware of what down-leveling is, and that it was recently adjusted to more heavily impact down-leveled characters. That’s irrelevant to my question. More than once in this thread you’ve admitted that if equally skilled, an 80 trumps a lower level. A pug group has no way of knowing who is skilled until they see the character played. They are thus controlling the only variable they can.

So, again… for a group that has an interest in speed/efficiency, what is the upside of taking a sub-80 character? From all the arguments I’ve seen in this thread, it would be that the player might be skilled. Well, that 80 might be also, and if he is, he is the better choice. Still, I’d like to hear other upsides, if there are any.

Don’t get me wrong. I do not discriminate by level, but, I am not inclined to support anyone besides the developers telling others how to play the game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.

Sorcerer.3095:

People should chill…sub level 80s are not making your run taking much longer (if it’s even noticable) if they know what they’re doing (i.e. an alt or has run it before). For most dungeons knowledge (of how the paths are run) -> skill -> level.

IMO if you don’t advertise for 80 only beforehand, you don’t have the right to kick someone below 80 if they are high enough for the cap, 35, 45, 55 etc

Alts is fine in most cases. Yep. They still being carryied. But not as much as newbies in dungeons. And if it is not alt…its a newbie. With all the learning curve to do. He WIll be troublesome.

abelooi.9156:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

You are right of course. But unless it’s friends/guildies, I believe with PUGs they usually want to minimise the risk of badly skilled players. Sub-80s are well capable of all three of course, especially if they already have multiple 80s. The thing is you don’t go into a party and holler out I have 5 80s all fully geared but just wanting to play this. And people usually are more willing to bet that a level 80 should possibly be more familiar with a game, experimented more, and did his research.

I actually preferred to look at their achievement points. That’s more telling. Usually (USUALLY, not always) if their points are high and they bring in an alt, they are usually OK. Sub-1k points with a sub-80 means they are really new with the game.

The majority of players with multiple 80s join a party with their 80, do the dungeon with their 80 and then switch to their lower level character towards the end of the boss fight.

^ To me it’s more fun to run with the lower level, I get more xp , get to loot end boss and can play with different skills than with my main. Another reason I prefer to run with my lower level is that switching chars mid dungeon takes a long time for me because of my slow PC.

sostronk.8167:

Have you guys who feel “80s only” is elitist considered maybe organizing your own dungeons with sub-80s only? Serious question. The majority of us aren’t going to be persuaded, so why not even things out a bit.

I know that I can always find a group regardless of the chara that I run. Others may get pushed away by this kind of elitist behaviour and give up on dungeons entirely, which would be a bloody shame. We want a friendly welcoming community here, not a dismissive elitist one.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.

The time difference is never that great if players are equally skilled. And if you assume lower level charas are less skilled regardless, you are doing neither yourself or the community any favours.

I run with groups with sub-80s frequently, and I have never seen the level of fail you are attributing to all lower level players. Never.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.

You can still use the weapons and your utility skills just fine, even below level 80. And if you need a long time to acquaint yourself with new traits then you are not a skilled player.

And anyone that thinks that they have ‘perfected’ a class is someone who refuses to learn anything new. And that is bad.

Sergoros.4398:

Sorcerer.3095:

People should chill…sub level 80s are not making your run taking much longer (if it’s even noticable) if they know what they’re doing (i.e. an alt or has run it before). For most dungeons knowledge (of how the paths are run) -> skill -> level.

IMO if you don’t advertise for 80 only beforehand, you don’t have the right to kick someone below 80 if they are high enough for the cap, 35, 45, 55 etc

Alts is fine in most cases. Yep. They still being carryied. But not as much as newbies in dungeons. And if it is not alt…its a newbie. With all the learning curve to do. He WIll be troublesome.

Low levels are not carried. I cannot stress that enough. Bad players are carried, but low levels are not.

So your just going to dungeon with sub 80s now?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.

The time difference is never that great if players are equally skilled. And if you assume lower level charas are less skilled regardless, you are doing neither yourself or the community any favours.

I run with groups with sub-80s frequently, and I have never seen the level of fail you are attributing to all lower level players. Never.

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.

You can still use the weapons and your utility skills just fine, even below level 80. And if you need a long time to acquaint yourself with new traits then you are not a skilled player.

And anyone that thinks that they have ‘perfected’ a class is someone who refuses to learn anything new. And that is bad.

Not much time to learn basic mechanics. Much time to learn how to do em most efficient. Much time to know every little thing about this weapon and little tricks of it. Same with utilitys.

And last line. EXACTLY. Your "just fine’ is far from perfect. As i said. Even at 80 lvl u still learn new things about your class. So u can’t say, that newbie, that only been few weeks in a game, would be a skilled player with his class. Average as max. No more.

To tell the truth…. I used fast casting nearly from the start of the game. Cause its faster….but..cause of it i didnt know, that mind stab of gs is a targeted skill. For around a month i thought that its random sword comming from the ground and its just another chaotic part of a mesmer…

Sergoros.4398:

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).