Guild Wars 2

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).

I remember this. But. It shows the difference. If they lack in speedruns => they lack in normal runs too. Its just harder to notice, cause they hiding on your back.

Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call him experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.

Hm….now, that i mentioned full clears…as i remember…all low levels, that did “just fine” felt like that in full clear dungeons, where u dont even have speedrun option. Yep. Looks like u c difference only in speedruns. In other options… They just hiding to good.

Sergoros.4398:

Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call em experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.

Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).

But wouldn’t that be elitist? I mean, why exclude sub 80s from speed runs?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call em experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.

Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.

Learning the dungeon is one thing. Most likely, (dont forget, that player is a newbie and still learning, and cause of it he would allways miss some parts) after 2-3 runs, he would learn most of the dungeon. But to learn, how he can maximise his efficiency in this dungeon is another thing. he would need to try some skills and utilitys. Change his weapons. Try and retry all the traits (and every 5 levels he would get a new one). And etc and etc. Thats a lot to learn. He would understand His Own Class only at 80 lvl, when some time passes, and he would finaly find his “perfect build”. Only then he would be full fledged player. Before that, he is just a child among adults.

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).

But wouldn’t that be elitist? I mean, why exclude sub 80s from speed runs?

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence and actual experience to the contrary?

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).

But wouldn’t that be elitist? I mean, why exclude sub 80s from speed runs?

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

That’s why I slap on my dungeon master title to my level 49 engi alt, and outplay all the 80s in the dungeon.

Usually they notice too

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?

Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.

Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Sergoros.4398:

Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.
Learning the dungeon is one thing. Most likely, (dont forget, that player is a newbie and still learning, and cause of it he would allways miss some parts) after 2-3 runs, he would learn most of the dungeon. But to learn, how he can maximise his efficiency in this dungeon is another thing. he would need to try some skills and utilitys. Change his weapons. Try and retry all the traits (and every 5 levels he would get a new one). And etc and etc. Thats a lot to learn. He would understand His Own Class only at 80 lvl, when some time passes, and he would finaly find his “perfect build”. Only then he would be full fledged player. Before that, he is just a child among adults.

And this is the definition of a troll, right down to the incomprehensible grammar. There’s really no point in discussing anything with him, he’s literally trying to bait you with exaggerated condescending remarks such as referring players to adults and children…I guess to make the 13 year olds that play the game feel superior for some reason.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.

Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.

Trolls don’t read. I mean, they can barely write English and comprehending is just out of the question. I doubt anyone has actually read anything in those links, let alone clicked them.

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Don’t sink to that level. Keep your chin up and keep arguing for the side of common sense. They can only bait you if you let them.

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Well the best thing would be to simply ignore posts like his. All it does is circle around the point. No one is providing evidence that it’s faster or slower, if you hit harder or weaker, or if it’s all the same. Going on hearsay just perpetuates ignorance so the thread is just better off closed.

IMO, the amount of comments and reads is proof enough that the subject is controversial enough not to simply dismiss. So the point is already made whether those plugging their ears feel the issue is simple to dismiss or not.

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Care to prove your point? I have yet to see any counterarguments for mine.

Right now it is u who trolling. Adding nothing to discussion and accusing others in trolling. To obvious.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Don’t sink to that level. Keep your chin up and keep arguing for the side of common sense. They can only bait you if you let them.

He is already way below mine level.

-Points back to his previous posts-

Have you read them? I doubt it.

Please keep this conversation from becoming closed. There is good information here for people to consider as long as it doesn’t become closed by the mods. So please play nice.

Leo G.4501:

Well the best thing would be to simply ignore posts like his. All it does is circle around the point. No one is providing evidence that it’s faster or slower, if you hit harder or weaker, or if it’s all the same. Going on hearsay just perpetuates ignorance so the thread is just better off closed.

No Evidence? Rly? Try to read this thread. One side showed, that stats r balanced. Other side showed, that even though they balanced, lowlevels still lack to much. And that is where we right now.

1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”

Leo G.4501:

-Points back to his previous posts-

Have you read them? I doubt it.

Yep. I did read it. SO?

Sergoros.4398:

1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”

I did accept that there is a minor speed difference. Again, this is not accounting for speed runs but normal dungeon clears.

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

I was thinking about using a word like “Fast run”. But I don’t know. The impression I got from synful was you just had to type “speed run” and then you were exempt from having to play with sub 80s without being labelled an elitist.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”

I did accept that there is a minor speed difference. Again, this is not accounting for speed runs but normal dungeon clears.

Well…srry if my wording wasnt right. But thats exactly what i tryed to say.

U accept, that there is difference, and now, basicaly, we arguing the size of this difference.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

I was thinking about using a word like “Fast run”. But I don’t know. The impression I got from synful was you just had to type “speed run” and then you were exempt from having to play with sub 80s without being labelled an elitist.

Actualy it helps. Yep. U use speed run group option in lfg and its now a given, that u would skip trash mobs and do only rewarding bosses/champs. U dont even need to argue. U just point out, that your lfg had “speedrun”.

-guys help! I can’t pass this mobs!
- U shouldn’t have joined then! If u can’t pass this mobs – ur not fir for speed run.
- Ok. Srry. Didnt notice speed run option.

Rly helps.

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Wrong, yours are not arguments, just poor excuses to keep your bad attitude againsts others, attitude you get from another game I bet.

Counterarguments? No, you just say the same old cool story about gear and how you need an 80 to run “without problems” a LOW level dungeon. Read yourself…

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

I was thinking about using a word like “Fast run”. But I don’t know. The impression I got from synful was you just had to type “speed run” and then you were exempt from having to play with sub 80s without being labelled an elitist.

Well there is no inbetween, you know. You’re either a leecher nub that has to be carried, or an elitist jerk that isn’t capable of running a dungeon without being carried by all 80s…at least that’s how the circular argument goes.

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

There are so many people wanting their lowbies to be taken in the lvl 80 groups, why not just form your own lowbie groups? I see them on the lfg a fair bit, people running their lowbie alts through, looking for more like-minded and like-leveled players.

My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.

If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.

Invest your all the trait points you have.

As you level, craft the next set and so on… I have done this for all my alts as I go and it has led to a much better experience in the dungeon and with my fellow pugs. As you dungeon your way up through the levels, the money from them will not only pay for your gear as you go, but you will have plenty of gold left over.

Many times I get verbal abuse for letting the lvl 35 in the group and asking him to ping his gear, he yells that I am an elitist when I tell him his whites are not acceptable. I don’t think so. I just do not think it’s fair on my team to carry someone to that much of a degree.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Wrong, yours are not arguments, just poor excuses to keep your bad attitude againsts others, attitude you get from another game I bet.

Counterarguments? No, you just say the same old cool story about gear and how you need an 80 to run “without problems” a LOW level dungeon. Read yourself…

Wow. just wow. Gj. Nothing to say. And now pls read my posts. Cause right now u just proven, that u read nothing.

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.

swiftpaw.6397:

My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.

If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.

Invest your all the trait points you have.

Asking one to ping gear is not something that should be done. But at the same time, if you are running a sub-80 in dungeons you should be running blues (minimum) or greens (greatly preferred) close to your current level. And you should be traiting properly as you level as well. If you are expecting others to play well, you should as well.

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Leo G.4501:

I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.

Last straw for ya? When u can’t support your argument with anything solid. U just keep pushing on gramar? Right. Thats how u should do it.

It’s rather that, the argument is supported but you’d just handwave it away with a “Nuh Uh!”

SynfulChaot.3169:

swiftpaw.6397:

My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.

If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.

Invest your all the trait points you have.

Asking one to ping gear is not something that should be done. But at the same time, if you are running a sub-80 in dungeons you should be running blues (minimum) or greens (greatly preferred) close to your current level. And you should be traiting properly as you level as well. If you are expecting others to play well, you should as well.

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.

And food…yep. For speed runs its fine to use mf food. And this point is where i lose, cause im usualy only one, who using not only mf food, but also +10% dmg and +10% resistance.

Leo G.4501:

It’s rather that, the argument is supported but you’d just handwave it away with a “Nuh Uh!”

Empty post again. Mby some quote for proof? Or to bothersome for ya?

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.

Last straw for ya? When u can’t support your argument with anything solid. U just keep pushing on gramar? Right. Thats how u should do it.

Let’s keep this discussion on track to avoid getting it closed by the moderators. Thanks. ^.^

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.

Sergoros.4398:

Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.

Hmm. I’d want to see info on that. I wasn’t aware that those aspects were downscaled. Great if they are, but I’d like to actually see info on that.

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.

I even believe you here. But what we get from it? Not much. Even if they downscaled, thats just stats, which we already discussed, to be even. The problem is % parts, that could slow party down easily. How? Easy example:

Here we have party of 5 80 lvl with trait +15% to dmg. And here we have same party of 35 lvls, that had no place for such trait. Only 1! Most likely they lack much more, but in this example it would be only 1.

So…what we have from here? They would kill all mobs 15% slower. Thats to easy to understand. Aaaand…it would make run not minorly slower, but 15% slower. Just 1 trait. I think, it is a good example.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.

Hmm. I’d want to see info on that. I wasn’t aware that those aspects were downscaled. Great if they are, but I’d like to actually see info on that.

I believe it’s in the linked reddit post from the link someone posted in a thread complaining about dynamic level scaling.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/y2ggw/complaint_dynamic_level_scaling_allows_stats_to/

SynfulChaot.3169:

swiftpaw.6397:

My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.

If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.

Invest your all the trait points you have.

Asking one to ping gear is not something that should be done. But at the same time, if you are running a sub-80 in dungeons you should be running blues (minimum) or greens (greatly preferred) close to your current level. And you should be traiting properly as you level as well. If you are expecting others to play well, you should as well.

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

I do not often gear check, but when I do it is because I am running high level fractals, or I am taking lowbies into dungeons, and I feel these are times when that is appropriate to avoid issues later on. Gear checking is not something I enjoy doing, but it has often times saved my team alot of trouble.

anyone requiring lvl 80 for AC, CM and TA are terrible players imo
ive had brilliant; fast runs with sub 80 players; ive also had horrible train wreck runs with full 80 exo players

- more than that; players should check lower level characters achievement points to ascertain whether or not they’re a ‘newbie’

Linguistically Inept.6583:

anyone requiring lvl 80 for AC, CM and TA are terrible players imo
ive had brilliant; fast runs with sub 80 players; ive also had horrible train wreck runs with full 80 exo players

- more than that; players should check lower level characters achievement points to ascertain whether or not they’re a ‘newbie’

TBH I dont even mind the noobies so long as they come prepared with appropriate gear and traits for their level. I’ve taken a few in the past and as long as they listen to instruction there isn’t too much of an issue. I find they are often very eager to learn and do the right thing which certainly helps.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Hmm. I’d want to see info on that. I wasn’t aware that those aspects were downscaled. Great if they are, but I’d like to actually see info on that.

I believe it’s in the linked reddit post from the link someone posted in a thread complaining about dynamic level scaling.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/y2ggw/complaint_dynamic_level_scaling_allows_stats_to/

Searched the reddit. Found no mention of sigils or runes. I’ll be able to do the checking myself once I get yet another alt to 35.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?

What is this magic source of +20% damage from traits that is impossible for a lower level chara to get?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?

What is this magic source of +20% damage from traits that is impossible for a lower level chara to get?

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

swiftpaw.6397:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

anyone requiring lvl 80 for AC, CM and TA are terrible players imo
ive had brilliant; fast runs with sub 80 players; ive also had horrible train wreck runs with full 80 exo players

- more than that; players should check lower level characters achievement points to ascertain whether or not they’re a ‘newbie’

TBH I dont even mind the noobies so long as they come prepared with appropriate gear and traits for their level. I’ve taken a few in the past and as long as they listen to instruction there isn’t too much of an issue. I find they are often very eager to learn and do the right thing which certainly helps.

- to clarify; i didnt mean; kick them if they are a newbie, i just meant to gauge their game experience (and offer to walk them through what they need to do at certain parts of the dungeon/what to expect if they are new)

newbies are often much more eager to learn because they arent arrogant and think they know everything (ive met alot of ‘elitists’ whove blamed lowbies in the group for their failing to dodge a scavenger/ kholers scorps, meleeing the troll -which is doable; with a very skilled group/guard spam-, getting screamed to death -HK/CR- or getting hit by a boulder -CR-…)

- i notice the level elitist attitude mostly in AC (people joining then instantly leaving when they see a non level 80)… theres the obvious mesmer/warr/guard only CoF parties… and several times ive been told not to invite someone because theyre a ranger or thief (which -as well as being immensely annoying to me; my main main is ele with ranger as my secondary- is ridiculous; and has occasionally -depending on how much i want to do the dungeon in question- made me leave a party)

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.

What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.