As stated in another topic many boss in video game history have phase during wich the player can do limited or no dps at all and are based on surviving potentialy lethal blow. While the current mentality is to run maximum damage and speed rush things trought, Fight like Mai trin may actualy hold the answer to making pve a balanced place for everyone.
What im subjesting is not an increase in boss armor not a nerf to zerker damage or an increase of class stats but litteraly an overhaul of some of the boss mechanics.
So here comes 4 boss model i know (from various MMO including this one)
Tank and spank: The classic boss wich requires you to simply burn his health bar as fast as possible while staying alive. The boss does a few dangerous move wich can be avoided and dies after a set amount of damage
Phased fight: The boss style change during combat and may involve an invulnerable or heavily armored phase during wich the players have to survive a constant barrage of attack. In some case the boss is still vulnerable but produce a lethal aoe at its feet to prevent melee range fighting so melee unit are penalised while ranged unit can still do their damage. (Mai Trin is a two phased battle using an invulnerability phases, Lupicus is also a phased battle but doesnt use invulnerability and has 3 defrent phase)
Survival battle: This fight is based on surviving an endless mob spawn battle for a set amount of time. Weve seen it already in Citadel of flame in the suicide room and it can easily be counted as a boss fight. In other games this kind of fight is often emphased by a boss in the middle of the room constantly spawning trash adds to assist him while the players have to contend with both the adds and the boss trying to thin the adds or kites them around.
The gimmick: This fight doesnt rely on damage at all and might as well be done naked but can still be lethal to the player should they get hit (Jade Maw). In the current case Jade Maw is easily defeated because of the player behing able to simply ’’dodge’’ the death ray at the last second. If the death ray coulnt be dodged in the first place wed all have to hide behind crystals while slowly killing tentacle one by one in order to get enought crystals to be ready for the next ray or share a single crystal amonst ourselves when behing targeted (people also would stop complaining constantly about pets and stuff behing targeted instead of them because it slow down the fight).
The DPS or death race: This is a kind of fight that hasnt been fully seen yet in guild wars 2 but do exist on other MMO. Its prety much in the emphasis of what guild wars 2 currently promote wich is to burn the boss as fast as possible to avoid death. The defrence is that the death race kills the player from a debuff stack a boss buff stack or an enrage timer if the player dont kill the boss fast enought. The team gets wiped by overwelming stacking damage wich either is coming from the boss itself or from a debuff on them (the ice elemental boss in shiverpeak fractal could have been a death race if not for the fact the ice stacks to fast and the debuff can be removed with a fireplace) rather then by random boss attack wich are generaly weak by default but cause the player to gradualy die faster. Another exemple of the death race is that the boss attack may cause a debuff that will increase the player damage taken every time they get hit, implementing this kind of fight in Guild Wars 2 would be somewhat easy.
Anet needs to make it so that less fight in the game are tank and spank doable and more of the other types to promote actual various play in boss battle and force player to do something else then burn boss down.
Any idea of how they could make theyre future boss? Write it down here
(edited by kyubi.3620)
The invuln phase is the most boring mechanic they ever implemented to a boss. Mai trin wouldnt be too bad if they removed the barrage phases or made it so you could speed them up or do something to damage her during that phase. I do not want to see more boring timegated invuln phases on bosses. Every phase should have counters and approaches that can be used to continue to fight the boss.
Principe of the invulnerability phase is to force the player to focus on their survivability rather then their damage. While mai trin invulnerability phase is boring they could give it an actual interesting gimmick like a couple of switch on the walls wich when all activated force teleport the boss back in the scene and end the cannon barrage but trigger a few adds to come out and assist the boss. Principe is to force the player to concentrate on a task wich does not involve dpsing the boss for now.
The alternate to invulnerability is the Anti melee zone (death circle) wich force the players to range the boss for a set amount of time all while dodging lethal attack (the golem suit boss in sorrow embrace is one of those exemple where a death aoe zone is used, however it is not a phase of the fight and is very short so the players dont realy need to adapt but just to withdraw and wait for the aoe to leave) and the armored mode (Gaeron Baelfire) wich force the players to remove the armor of a boss before hiting it as hard as possible but the player can still hit the boss for minor or major damage depending on their specialisation.
Principe of those armored phase is to deeply reduce player damage and force them to work on breaking down or survive the mechanic so to resume dpsing the boss again.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Make bosses steal banners and use themselves <.<
Theres also the counter principe wich we saw in guild wars 1 with shiro tagashi and in guild wars 2 with the slime boss in inquest fractal. The boss charge an attack and if hit during that time deals damage to the player in proportion to its damage taken.
Make bosses steal banners and use themselves <.<
Isnt the Ascalonian captain in charr fractal already using banners?
That’s the scribe guy with the banner that he summons.
And lol at wanting to not be able to dodge Maw’s beam. Let’s take the little bit of skill required in that fight (understanding when to dodge) and replace it with a mechanics that will likely make parties wipe due to the lack of crystals. GG.
Well lets be honest Maw is way to easy as it is right now and i could actualy afk during fight if i wanted to. Do you have an idea of how they could increase the trill in this fight without actualy harming the dodge mechanic? like idk make it so boss have a random very large tentacle slap in a line where a player located so to force movement and awareness?
Well lets be honest Maw is way to easy as it is right now and i could actualy afk during fight if i wanted to. Do you have an idea of how they could increase the trill in this fight without actualy harming the dodge mechanic? like idk make it so boss have a random very large tentacle slap in a line where a player located so to force movement and awareness?
Well I don’t know what game you’re playing, but i move around the map A LOT in Maw to kill it quicker by killing all of the tentacles. I think you’re basically saying that you just wait there with a crystal hoping to get targeted and to hurt the boss that way, and don’t actually know the mechanics of the boss fractal that actually promote teamwork and movement and kills.
didn t they remove maw damage through Killing tentacles?
i got molten 15 times in a row and i almost never get maw anymore.
didn t they remove maw damage through Killing tentacles?
i got molten 15 times in a row and i almost never get maw anymore.
Did they?
I haven’t gotten maw for a while either, but I mean, why would they get rid of that? It promotes active play. Oh wait, maybe they don’t want it to be active. Never mind.
Not realy its more like i shoot down a tentacle and take crystal and when targeted i take one and shoot it in his eye. I could longbow or rangestaff the tentacle the whole fight never actualy taking damage. Risk in Jade maw is not rewarded well enought and it realy doesnt mather if you got 1 crystal faster because jade maw is so slow at attacking and so easy to evade you might as well just auto attack tentacles one by one with a staff or a rifle to gather crystals while dodging the ray. I could somewhat stand in the same place (aka left corner) the whole time while gathering crystals from the tentacle using ranged attack and id still make it trought. Just get a ranged weapon and a melee alternative weapon and start choping the elemental one by one while dodging the ray and you likely could solo the fight on your own.
Damage on killing the tentacle? If it ever existed it was on melee range only because i never noticed any (unless you talking about the agony from phase 2 and 3).
Not realy its more like i shoot down a tentacle and take crystal and when targeted i take one and shoot it in his eye. I could longbow or rangestaff the tentacle the whole fight never actualy taking damage. Risk in Jade maw is not rewarded well enought and it realy doesnt mather if you got 1 crystal faster because jade maw is so slow at attacking and so easy to evade you might as well just auto attack tentacles one by one with a staff or a rifle to gather crystals while dodging the ray. I could somewhat stand in the same place (aka left corner) the whole time while gathering crystals from the tentacle using ranged attack and id still make it trought. Just get a ranged weapon and a melee alternative weapon and start choping the elemental one by one while dodging the ray and you likely could solo the fight on your own.
Damage on killing the tentacle? If it ever existed it was on melee range only because i never noticed any (unless you talking about the agony from phase 2 and 3).
It used to be that killing a tentacle did damage to Maw (and I guess isn’t anymore since after Fractured? But I’m not sure on that) so you could effectively speed up the fight by killing the tentacles.
I just can’t imagine why anyone would feel the need to range a tentacle.
Killing it for its crystal quicker will always be better.
Yeah they stopped the damage from killing tentacles. So it is now even more of an afk fest. The good thing about it before was you could speed it up legit by killing tentacles so you didnt completely die of boredom. Or you could use dark fields and life steal jade maw in seconds. They fixed both of those and made it the simplest, most boring and worst encounter in the game (not that it wasnt already).
No, Mai Trin is not the actual answer. The actual answer is making the dungeon paths nobody does at this moment worth doing, like CoF path 3, SE path 2, TA Aetherpath, ect.
There are already plenty of varied encounters in this game. It’s just that effort required to complete those paths far outweighs the rewards received for completing them. I remember that CoF path 3 had several passages where damage wasn’t a priority, and am sure there are more of such paths. But why waste my time doing those when I can get rewards from 4 other dungeons for the same time invested? Just adjust the rewards for those paths adequately with their time requirements/difficulty and there will be variety in this game.
That was for the easy part, let’s not forget that everything becomes stale after time. We need new dungeons, or at least new dungeon paths. No matter how difficult content is, when you are running it for the 100th time, it WILL become trivial.
Best way to beat Mai is still zerkers. Nice try though.
Reduce attack damage by 66%.
Increase attack rate by 300%.
That would basically fix the zerker problem overnight.
Maybe but we will likely see way less ‘’burn the boss style’’ fight if they start making more fight like her (You wont be able to take down the boss without risking a few serious hit mid way. Also making the first last longuer without actualy increasing the health bar leave a bigger chance for mistake to happen wich may not be so apparent in a shorter battle. Skilled player will still be rewarded while player who cant take the heat of dodging right several time will crumble to dust.
This isnt about if those boss can be done with zerker or not its about preventing player from overdamaging bosses to the point they cant fight back and end up behing even more harmless then before. We need more encounter based on those kind of gimmick wich actualy force the player to take a deep breath and start thinking because as it is right now the boss rush are prety much mindless (eating strawberry while fighting alpha).
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Alpha has plenty of time to attack against a full zerker group— we just know how to dodge. Similarly, Mai has plenty of time to attack, but in a good group that knows the mechanic (spread out) barrage is super easy to dodge.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either.
Kyubi, I don’t know if you realised that, but this forum is called Professions Balance.
technicaly its a topic about avoiding zerker behing nerfed to the ground or class behing fixed in the favor of fixing dungeon boss instead, its practicaly in prety much both dungeon and prof balance topic. In some way however your right the topic name is somewhat misleading
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Kyubi, I don’t know if you realised that, but this forum is called Professions Balance.
i’m reading “Dungeons”… ?
Kyubi, I don’t know if you realised that, but this forum is called Professions Balance.
i’m reading “Dungeons”… ?
It was moved an hour ago from Professions Balance.
Maw would be a lot more interesting if it had 2-3 times more health but it would target every party member (or 5 random targets) . Then also add Irukandjis which would eat Crystals and explode for massive damage.
Kyubi, I don’t know if you realised that, but this forum is called Professions Balance.
i’m reading “Dungeons”… ?
It was moved an hour ago from Professions Balance.
ah. things make sense now… ^^
Principe of the invulnerability phase is to force the player to focus on their survivability rather then their damage.
Dead God shoot me if I read another one of Kyubi’s threads…
Best way to beat Mai is still zerkers. Nice try though.
mmm no….
Unless you have the OP party support of certain professions available in dps builds (the real issue of pve), you will lose time trying to get mai debuff or will get downed too often since every attack and aoe stacks conditions.
Everything is avoidable.
Yea, the pug tactic seems to be stack on her while she is immune and everyone eats bleeding. Once stacks go down people disperse due to low health.
Just dance around her until stacks go down and then burst.
And now this thread will result in the usual showoff….rather than trying to consider balance from pugs pov.
Even good pugs will lose time in fullzerk or risk more that is something balanced..
Pugs don’t have blocks, evades, reflects and cannot use cc properly. In that case we’re showing off. How can I consider balance from pugs pov when I don’t pug. I have no clue what they “invented” this time.
Try to find like-minded people instead of pugging for more 1.5 year.
I approve this thread, and i only PuG, we need to pull the bar up or pugs will never learn, you have to hit them hard.
How can I consider balance from pugs pov when I don’t pug
Your fault…
This is a mmorpg…..in a mmorpg you are expected to pug…..
And balance team is expected to balance for pugs and not for you being the exception.
Pugging is challenging and less straightforewarded….playstiles, party compositions, tactics are often different…if i played with the same people forever would be boring as cof1 speedruns.
How can I consider balance from pugs pov when I don’t pug
Your fault…
This is a mmorpg…..in a mmorpg you are expected to pug…..
And balance team is expected to balance for pugs and not for you being the exception.Pugging is challenging and less straightforewarded….playstiles, party compositions, tactics are often different…if i played with the same people forever would be boring as cof1 speedruns.
You do realise explorable paths were designed specifically for organised groups? That doesnt mean pugs. The paths are just too easy and have been around too long so pugging is possible. But dungeons should not be balanced around pugs.
And they shouldnt be balanced around speedclear groups either. They should be balanced around coordinated groups (ignoring gear choices). This means making cc, communication and adaptation important.
(edited by spoj.9672)
How can I consider balance from pugs pov when I don’t pug
Your fault…
This is a mmorpg…..in a mmorpg you are expected to pug…..
And balance team is expected to balance for pugs and not for you being the exception.
Funny, that’s what we’ve been saying to Kyubi when he complains about Lupi speed kills. There’s no reason to balance around organized groups. So why nerf zerk? Casual pugs aren’t abusing the zerk meta. I just don’t get what you people want. You’re hot and you’re cold, you’re yes and you’re no.
This infact is not a zerk nerf thread.
Its more about bosses that walks straight agaoinst a wall to eat firey GS in the aoe of warrior sbanners with players full buffed by a guardian.
Elitist thinking they are the only “organized” party are silly….
Pug coordinates and communicate….
First reason for booting in pug is infact people not listening/answering…..
This infact is not a zerk nerf thread.
Its more about bosses that walks straight agaoinst a wall to eat firey GS in the aoe of warrior sbanners with players full buffed by a guardian.
Elitist thinking they are the only “organized” party are silly….
Pug coordinates and communicate….
First reason for booting in pug is infact people not listening/answering…..
I pug. I only pug, really. There’s no communication because no one designates a clear leader.
I’m sorry, but you’re so wrong it hurts.
Also this post by Kyubi is a not so clever attempt at masking their previous thread where he literally said: “I want to murder the berserker meta” in those words.
My pugs are better than yours…
If pug don t communicate i quit and look for another pug party….i suggest to do the same.
P.S. i m instead proZerkers and people pugging knows the importance of having a non zerk equip to save bad runs….if you notice too late.
(edited by LordByron.8369)
This infact is not a zerk nerf thread.
Its more about bosses that walks straight agaoinst a wall to eat firey GS in the aoe of warrior sbanners with players full buffed by a guardian.
Elitist thinking they are the only “organized” party are silly….
Pug coordinates and communicate….
First reason for booting in pug is infact people not listening/answering…..
The average pug doesnt communicate very well or even need to. Thats why i say it should be balanced around organised groups. Meaning coordinating burning of defiant stacks and so on. I wasnt talking specifically about zerk groups either. You can clearly see that in my post. Im fully aware that many casual guilds have organised groups that clear dungeons and not all of them use voice comms. But they do communicate because they know each other.
The average pug will always have an issue so you cant balance around them. You have higher expectations in your pugs so you are in above average pug groups. Which is pretty much the same level as organised casual groups. Which is fine for anet to balance around. But I still feel difficulty should be raised and even well coordinated pugs should have a hard time. Dungeons are meant for organised and well coordinated groups afterall, so they shouldnt be so easy for pug groups of any kind.
(edited by spoj.9672)
My pugs are better than yours…
If pug don t communicate i quit and look for another pug party….i suggest to do the same.
Well, I try to make it work with my pugs.
And now, who’s the elitist here?
I mean, really.
I must be lucky since we pinged not only defiant but the skill we wanted to use when stack are removed….and aso planning when (ex lava shaman phase).
If you can t communicate with players you can’t “work with pugs”.
Also its not i force them….the best part is Learning many tactics for each boss…some are more optimal some are less…some are easier some worse……
I think if you haven t experienced that, you don t have the right to complain about endgame…
I must be lucky since we pinged not only defiant but the skill we wanted to use when stack are removed….and aso planning when (ex lava shaman phase).
If you can t communicate with players you can’t “work with pugs”.
Also its not i force them….the best part is Learning many tactics for each boss…some are more optimal some are less…some are easier some worse……I think if you haven t experienced that, you don t have the right to complain about endgame…
Please read my post again. Im obviously saying balancing around pugs is not an option because most pugs arent remotely organised. Your groups arent pugs if you look at the level of coordination involved therefore you asking for stuff to be balanced around pugs is asking for it to be balanced around groups you dont play in. So you are in exactly the same boat as us….
Your fault…
This is a mmorpg…..in a mmorpg you are expected to pug…..
Could you show me what kind of dictionary you are using?
And balance team is expected to balance for pugs and not for you being the exception.
Let’s balance for pugs and have all guild members that like to play with each others quit the game because there’s nothing to do unless they pug. However, they don’t want to, which was the reason why they formed or joined their guilds.
Pugging is challenging and less straightforewarded….playstiles, party compositions, tactics are often different…
I can agree here, pugging is challenging… for you mental state.
if i played with the same people forever would be boring as cof1 speedruns.
Better boring than deadly for your health.
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