Guild Wars 2

Description

Simple voting system has been added to http://gw2dungeons.net/Voting. Each week I will create a discussion topic on forums and add relevant polls there, if needed. Guild leaders are given an account which can be used to vote. Polls stay up for one week.

Guild leaders can apply for a vote by sending me your preferred login name and reason why you should have a vote (was in previous rule meetings, have records, etc.) via in-game, forums or email. Optionally you can also give me your email so I can send a reminder about new polls if there hasn’t been any for a while.

Current vote holders:

• Daemoniic [HeX]
• Enko [LOD]
• Deathly [qT]
• Skywalker [TDN]
• Der/p/y Moa [vC]
• Ashlee [geek]
• Jerem [SC]
• Nikephoros [DnT]
• Sanderinoa [rT]

Keep in mind that anyone is free to give their opinion and ideas on this topic!

Results of week 22 voting

• 86% agreed to keep voting system, 14% didn’t care.
• 63% agreed to decide exploits/etc case by case, 37% would have let me decide.

As a result, this week will be about this “case by case” deciding on restricted rule set.

Issue1: Safespotting trash

Currently rules only mention bosses. I would say it’s generally agreed on that this includes both legendary enemies and champions. If someone disagrees please let me know so I add another vote option. The real question is about the trash, especially those immobile enemies in CMP2 which can be attacked through walls.

A) Allow safespotting trash.

• Removes the need to draw a line in pretty trivial cases (it’s trash).
• No need to care about “made up” barrier in pretty trivial cases.

B) Extend safespotting rule to trash.

• May have to decided more stuff case by case.
• Playing as “intended”.

Issue 2: AC story gate skip

Instead of getting a boulder from next room to keep the gate open, players can just leap over the gate or teleport before the gate closes.

A) Allow by-passing the gate.

• Every (or at least most) professions can do it.
• Uses legit mechanics, no “made up” barrier.

B) Don’t allow by-passing the gate.

• Skips one room.
• Encourages splitting (one stands on the pressure plate, rest proceed while he gets a boulder to get through on his own).

Issue 3: CoE exp door skip

First Alpha can be reached by just jumping over the door while waiting for the path selection. This is clearly unintended as Alpha is inactive.

A) Allow jumping over the door.

• It’s only jumping.
• It skips a timegate.

B) Don’t allow jumping over the door.

• Dumps down Alpha even more.

Issue 4: ArahP3 door skip

By delaying the path selection, you can walk to the closed door. After selection it briefly opens allowing you to enter fast.

A) Allow delaying the path selection.

• Legit mechanic.
• It’s just thrash.

B) Don’t allow delaying the path selection.

• Clearly unintended.
• Dumps down the path.

Issue 5: AC exp burrow skip

By delaying the path selection you can prevent the first burrow from appearing.

A) Allow delaying the path selection.

• Burrow is pointless.

B) Don’t allow delaying the path selection.

• Consistency.

Issue 6: Molten Facility lightning riding

A leap can be used (https://youtu.be/FjCGwiVtStE?t=6m29s) to jump over a gap, land on weapontest room fences and magically skip dialogue.

A) Allow the riding.

• Not out of bounds.
• Skips a timegate.

B) Don’t allow the riding.

• Not all professions can do it.
• Unintended area.

Issue 7: Arah p4 final jumping puzzle

With some jumping you can move over top of walls and reach end area faster.

A) Allow jumping.

• Harmless
• Skips an easy skip (jumping may actually be harder!).

B) Don’t allow jumping.

• Dumps down the path.
• Unintended area.

I might have forgot something so let me know if you think something else should be included.

I thought the Hex guys were saying that the Molten Facility jump could be done with any leap not just RtL?

Voted.

FWIW, I voted “no” to allowing Arah p3 door. Everything else I voted in line with the current usage of restricted ruled.

Trash, not thrash.

Thrash: beat (a person or animal) repeatedly and violently with a stick or whip.

Jerus.4350:

I thought the Hex guys were saying that the Molten Facility jump could be done with any leap not just RtL?

The jump can be done with any leap from the right side of the door (and then it looks far less “exploity” because it’s just one single leap.

Also, concerning the coe door jump, what bothers me personally most is not the door jump itself but rather that you can attack alpha while he does nothing. Maybe it would be a compromise to allow the door skip but to allow damaging him only after the path is selected.

Can you please put right tag next to my name?
And voted.

So it looks like the rule for “out of bounds” needs to just mean “unintended area that people don’t like” since a couple of the things we’re voting on are clearly not supposed to be accessible.

Yeah, since people wanted case by case the rule set is more like a guide line.

If results conflicts rules too much then we can just alter rules next week.

I’m still of the opinion that there should be a standardized set of rules across everything. We’re literally making up a new rule set for every single dungeon now.

Standardized ruleset would look something like:
No gemstore exclusive items
No third party programs like teleport hacks and such
No breaking out of maps like going under the map.
All required events to advance progress must be completed.

Other than that, have at it. Basically if something is available to everyone then it should be allowed. This is sounding pretty much like Unrestricted at this point.
This was pretty much how records were done in GW1 and there was a heck of a lot less drama then.

If we still wanted rules like no non food or oil consumables, then fine but the rules should be pretty much standardized across everything.

We currently have some people voting “Yes ok” for some options that state unintended area while they’re voting “No shouldn’t be allowed” for other areas where the same statement unintended area is used. This shows an inconsistency.

Well 83% percent of people chose to keep the voting system, turns out we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship

Matt.7413:

Well 83% percent of people chose to keep the voting system, turns out we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship

who was this even in response to? you’re talking like someone complained about the voting system in this thread.

Enko.6123:

I’m still of the opinion that there should be a standardized set of rules across everything. We’re literally making up a new rule set for every single dungeon now.

This would mean that you couldn’t have a voting system, otherwise the argument would still come up as in what’s a breech of the rules and not, its quite easy for each person to interpret something differently. You would have to have one person who decides whether it is a violation otherwise (in my opinion) one set of rules just wouldn’t work, hence my previous comment. I didn’t mean it in a bitey way or an offensive way, was just a jokey comment, I apologise if it came across like that

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 2: AC story gate skip

I don’t see much difference between leaping over the gate and having 1 guy standing on the button and then having a mesmer portal him through. In both cases you are using profession mechanics to skip having to walk up and fetch a rock. I say allow it.

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 3: CoE exp door skip

I believe it’s already established that bosses can’t be safe-spotted and there must be a camera angle for every deviating player. You can just check the skippers footage if he strikes Alpha and void it. Otherwise I see no issue with this.

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 5: AC exp burrow skip

I didn’t realise this was an issue. It’s an optional event and not hard to run past whether it’s spawned or not. It doesn’t really save any time either…

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 6: Molten Facility lightning riding

I want to start by poiting out that it doesn’t “magically skip dialogue”, the NPCs still have to do all the talking. What you skip is their run down. Even if it can be considered OOB it’s not used to skip any run or event or so, only the NPCs run. I don’t see it as any different to any other NPC manipulation like Magg in CoF2 (err…I don’t even know if that’s allowed, but it should be).

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 7: Arah p4 final jumping puzzle

Whereas here you make a decent run through OOB, this is the only one I think shouldn’t be allowed of the ones listed.

Zorby.8236:

Wethospu.6437:

Issue 6: Molten Facility lightning riding

I want to start by poiting out that it doesn’t “magically skip dialogue”, the NPCs still have to do all the talking. What you skip is their run down. Even if it can be considered OOB it’s not used to skip any run or event or so, only the NPCs run. I don’t see it as any different to any other NPC manipulation like Magg in CoF2 (err…I don’t even know if that’s allowed, but it should be).

The issue at hand for this one was never about skipping dialogue. The issue is if the top of the fence should be considered out of bounds since that is a place that you shouldn’t be able to get to.

Matt.7413:

Enko.6123:

I’m still of the opinion that there should be a standardized set of rules across everything. We’re literally making up a new rule set for every single dungeon now.

This would mean that you couldn’t have a voting system, otherwise the argument would still come up as in what’s a breech of the rules and not, its quite easy for each person to interpret something differently. You would have to have one person who decides whether it is a violation otherwise (in my opinion) one set of rules just wouldn’t work, hence my previous comment. I didn’t mean it in a bitey way or an offensive way, was just a jokey comment, I apologise if it came across like that

What I mean by a standardized ruleset is that there is a general ruleset that covers everything. Specific questions can be answered for specific dungeons like what was being done previously. My issue here is that for the last two questions, they are both out of bounds issues yet some people said yes to one but no to another which makes it inconsistent. Out of bounds should be pretty cut and dry. All the other issues on this weeks discussion are all in line with the previous restricted ruleset.

Enko.6123:

Matt.7413:

Enko.6123:

I’m still of the opinion that there should be a standardized set of rules across everything. We’re literally making up a new rule set for every single dungeon now.

This would mean that you couldn’t have a voting system, otherwise the argument would still come up as in what’s a breech of the rules and not, its quite easy for each person to interpret something differently. You would have to have one person who decides whether it is a violation otherwise (in my opinion) one set of rules just wouldn’t work, hence my previous comment. I didn’t mean it in a bitey way or an offensive way, was just a jokey comment, I apologise if it came across like that

What I mean by a standardized ruleset is that there is a general ruleset that covers everything. Specific questions can be answered for specific dungeons like what was being done previously. My issue here is that for the last two questions, they are both out of bounds issues yet some people said yes to one but no to another which makes it inconsistent. Out of bounds should be pretty cut and dry. All the other issues on this weeks discussion are all in line with the previous restricted ruleset.

It’s only inconsistent if you view them as both equally egregious. Personally, I am against both of them, but I can fairly say the Arah p4 JP is worse.

NikeEU.7690:

Enko.6123:

Matt.7413:

Enko.6123:

I’m still of the opinion that there should be a standardized set of rules across everything. We’re literally making up a new rule set for every single dungeon now.

This would mean that you couldn’t have a voting system, otherwise the argument would still come up as in what’s a breech of the rules and not, its quite easy for each person to interpret something differently. You would have to have one person who decides whether it is a violation otherwise (in my opinion) one set of rules just wouldn’t work, hence my previous comment. I didn’t mean it in a bitey way or an offensive way, was just a jokey comment, I apologise if it came across like that

What I mean by a standardized ruleset is that there is a general ruleset that covers everything. Specific questions can be answered for specific dungeons like what was being done previously. My issue here is that for the last two questions, they are both out of bounds issues yet some people said yes to one but no to another which makes it inconsistent. Out of bounds should be pretty cut and dry. All the other issues on this weeks discussion are all in line with the previous restricted ruleset.

It’s only inconsistent if you view them as both equally egregious. Personally, I am against both of them, but I can fairly say the Arah p4 JP is worse.

I’m not considering how much it affects the path. I’m looking at it specifically from what the rule says “8.) If any party member(s) at any point enter ‘out of bounds’ on a dungeon map, the time will be void”.

Out of bounds is out of bounds. It shouldn’t matter if it makes it so that the path is 5 seconds long or only shaves off 10 seconds off of a 5 minute run. Out of bounds is out of bounds.

So yes, voting yes on one and no on the other is inconsistent.

That was kind of point of last week voting. Do people want enforced and consistent rule set or more freedom? While opinions are always great, I have to say you are one week late.

Also the point isn’t to keep the current rule set but to evolve it as people want. If existing rules get too controversial, I will refine or remove them. For example based on current votes, I can just add new rule about allowing delaying path selection. Similarly ‘out of bounds’ will get changed to disallow getting inside walls or geometry.

Wethospu.6437:

That was kind of point of last week voting. Do people want enforced and consistent rule set or more freedom? While opinions are always great, I have to say you are one week late.

Also the point isn’t to keep the current rule set but to evolve it as people want. If existing rules get too controversial, I will refine or remove them. For example based on current votes, I can just add new rule about allowing delaying path selection. Similarly ‘out of bounds’ will get changed to disallow getting inside walls or geometry.

I made the same point last week as well.

Let me try to rephrase the point I’m trying to make.

All of the current voting things are in line with asking if things should be allowed. As Nike stated earlier, he voted according to if they were allowed under the current rules which is almost how everybody voted. When we were deciding on voting things, I saw it more as that we were voting on things that were questionable and how the rules applied to them.

If you go through them and ask yourself"does this violate any of the rules?", then vote accordingly.

1. Safespotting trash: More of an expansion on Rule 12 which was only on bosses before. This was a reasonable question to ask if safespotting should be expanded for any enemy.

2. Bypassing AC gate: Using a teleport to stand on the gate and get past it before it closes doesn’t violate any of the current rules. Jumping over the gate is what is questionable as you’re bypassing a progress blocking event of standing on the weight panel to open the gate so rule 5 may apply.

3. CoE door skip. Rule 5 applies.

4. Arah P3 first door skip. What rule was anyone saying this violated? 12a with event spawns?

5. AC burrow. What rule was anyone saying this violated? 12a with event spawns?

6. Molten Furnace leaping on top of the fence. Is this violating Rule 8? Out of bounds seems pretty cut and dry.

7. Arah P4 Tree Jump. Is this violating Rule 8? Out of bounds seems pretty cut and dry.

In every one of these cases, our existing rule set can be looked at and applied to see if each of these instances are violated. If people feel like these should be allowed, then the overall rule should be changed so that the Restricted ruleset is consistent.

If you look at the current Path specific rules, the majority of them are clarifications if they are allowed per the ruleset which the things we’re voting on this week should be the same. The other items listed under Path Specific Rules are things that don’t really fall under any rules and only apply in that dungeon and no where else such as CM P3 air guns on bosses, Reflects on top of the wall for Arah, and Volcanic replenishing infused stones.

Basically what I’m saying is that we have a an overall governing set of rules and if people have questions or have an argument to make if something does or does not violate a rule, it is put up for a vote. Everything this week was based on does this violate a current rule or not with the exception of #1 which was an expansion to a rule.

So we have a set of rules and we basically have a voting system in place on how the rules applies to situations.

So from this week’s votes, it looks like Rule 12 needs to be modified to state all enemies instead of just bosses.

Rule 8 still needs clarification on what is considered out of bounds since for votes 6 and 7 people voted opposite ways. Noticed your statement about changing it to disallow getting inside walls or geometry so guess we will have to wait to see how that’s worded.

Everything else can be placed under the path specific rules to clarify if these issue violate the current rules or not.

This all falls into what we voted on last week

Now some clearly unintended stuff are allowed because rules don’t explicitly ban it or just because.

We are clarifying if the rules ban something or not with this week’s vote.

A discussion clarifying how rules 12a probably needs to happen on what exactly are we defining as an event script. A lot of records being done now are due to manipulating NPCs to avoid their pathing, to avoid their dialogues, or to avoid other NPC interactions. Are we considering these event scripts or are we only counting events that actually display on your screen as events? BTW, why is this 12a and not just 13 or 5a as 12a seems more related to rule 5.

I might have explained myself poorly but you shouldn’t vote to clarify rules. While you can do that, nothing forces others to do the same. With this system people can vote to allow things which are clearly against rules overriding the rule.

The whole point of last week was do people want to decide “case by case” to allow exceptions.

Do you think I should open the last week’s vote with a better clarification?

Wethospu.6437:

I might have explained myself poorly but you shouldn’t vote to clarify rules. While you can do that, nothing forces others to do the same. With this system people can vote to allow things which are clearly against rules overriding the rule.

The whole point of last week was do people want to decide “case by case” to allow exceptions.

Do you think I should open the last week’s vote with a better clarification?

So in other words, we really are just throwing the rules out the window and deciding on whatever we want to allow per path.

Yes, if that’s the case, we probably should re open last week’s vote with it being more explicit on what we’re voting for.

I opened the vote for few days if anyone wants to change his mind.

Are you changing the wording on the votes at all so there’s clarification on what people are actually voting on?

Not really sure what you want to me to put there. It’s already state that the first option allows exceptions (encounter rules overriding general rules).

That we’re basically throwing the rules out so people can vote for path specific rules for each dungeon instead of having a baseline and voting on questionable things that should or should not be allowed based on the general ruleset.

There’s a difference between voting on exceptions that should be allowed because they’re questionable vs voting on exceptions because we want to ignore a rule completely.

There isn’t really such thing as “voting on questionable things”. If something is questionable that means rules have to be refined.

Wethospu.6437:

There isn’t really such thing as “voting on questionable things”. If something is questionable that means rules have to be refined.

Which is pretty much the point I think I was making last week and this week.

For some reason, people thought “out of bounds” had questionable areas.

In an earlier post, I went through all the issues we were voting on this week and was wondering why we were even voting on them as the current rules all applied.

As stated earlier, issue number 1 is the only one that contributed to a need to adjust a rule to include mobs can’t be safespotted either.

The current ruleset all applied to the other issues so if there’s no such thing as “voting on questionable things” since it just means the rules need to be refined, then why are we voting on specific issues instead of just adjusting the rules?

“Out of bounds” is questionable. For some it means areas where you get inside geometry. For some it means areas you shouldn’t access normally. Then what “normally” exactly means is another question.

People agreed that

• Each “unintended” trick will be decided case by case.
• Encounter specific rules may override general rules.

so that’s why those tricks are now being reviewed.

We probably really just need to clarify what out of bounds means and leave it at that since issue 6 and 7 were the only ones that people were disagreeing with despite both of them stating that they were unintended areas. If you modify the out of bounds rule to state getting inside of map geometry is not allowed and that’s it, then we’d be pretty much done since the Arah tree jump would not be allowed and the molten facility wall jump will. We shouldn’t need to vote on specific exceptions in areas if we just adjust/fix the overall rule that’s in question. The idea is that you have a general consistent ruleset.

The rest of them besides issue 1 for an expansion of rule 12 are already pretty clear in the rules.

That all was explained last week. If you want consistent rule set, you vote for option B.

Wethospu.6437:

That all was explained last week. If you want consistent rule set, you vote for option B.

Well the vote is now at 4 and 4 so how do we break ties?

1d 14h time left for vote and the leader of [SOLO] hasn’t voted yet.