Guild Wars 2

I posted this in the necro forum, but havent gotten a response yet so I thought I’d post here.

So now that viper trinkets are avaliable through raiding, has the optimal gear set-up changed for necro? I had been using nightmare runes on my reaper, and now I’m wondering if there is any advantage to swtiching to berserker runes and swaping out some of my sinister trinkets for the new viper ones.

Eyeballing it my thought is that it would somewhat lower condi damage and precision, but raise direct damage and perhaps have an overall increase in total dps. Has anybody done calculations looking at this?

I dont have a condi engi, but I’d also be curious to know if engi build has changed at all

I fooled around on gw2 skills and tried to compare these two scenerios. I dont know how reliable gw2 skills is, but for what its worth, going full viper with berserker runes appears to raise BOTH direct and condi damage on a necro. I base that just on looking at the skill attack damage. No way I can convert that into a dps figure.
The only thing that seems to suffer is crit chance. Based on what I saw, going all viper with bersker runes rather than sinister trinkets with nightmare runes, drops crit chance from about 41 to 36%.

I could be wrong, I will need to do more research (as i am looking at this too. )

my understanding currently.

Viper armour,
Viper trinkets.
Viper weapons.
Beserker runes.

Should be the max damage loadout. Depending on if you want to run a sigil of malice or bursting and what kind of food you can work with may change it a bit. I need to actually get my hand on the trinkets and see what they actually do.

I am personally running a sinister trinket combo with a nightmare and trapper rune set up. simply because Getting into a raid guild in my time zone is not existant. So i have to make do with what I have available.

I thought trinkets except for amulet were supposed to be sinister, the rest is viper. Look at Spoj’s guide on dulfy.net

I don’t know what’s best now that viper trinkets are more accessible. Ropechef is probably right.

This is what I use on my Condi Necro. I’ve done some math and it seems that Nightmare runes are bit better than Besersker’s one – but I’ve only calculated condition damage and skipped direct damage as it is quite low in comparison to condi.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArY7dnM0AlbiN3AW3As3gliBLKAMASATrgZQMIuHWETiA-TRiHQB06JAQQlZA4kAsLlGQRJ4vsggc6Hon6PBZ/ASBsoyK-e
(I use Viper backpack – however its not included in gw2skills.net database)

However both builds running on those runes seems to be quite similar. Worst of those ‘top3’ is Nigthmare+Trapper rune set.

But as I’ve said. While comparing Berserk to Nightmare I’ve only have taken condi dmg into account.

TheLilith.2849:

This is what I use on my Condi Necro. I’ve done some math and it seems that Nightmare runes are bit better than Besersker’s one – but I’ve only calculated condition damage and skipped direct damage as it is quite low in comparison to condi.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArY7dnM0AlbiN3AW3As3gliBLKAMASATrgZQMIuHWETiA-TRiHQB06JAQQlZA4kAsLlGQRJ4vsggc6Hon6PBZ/ASBsoyK-e
(I use Viper backpack – however its not included in gw2skills.net database)

However both builds running on those runes seems to be quite similar. Worst of those ‘top3’ is Nigthmare+Trapper rune set.

But as I’ve said. While comparing Berserk to Nightmare I’ve only have taken condi dmg into account.

You can’t just ignore the direct damage, it’s a lot more significant than you think. Now that ascended viper’s trinkets are more accessible, the best DPS you can get on a necro is by using berserker runes and maxing out condition duration with expertise and a sigil of malice.

One thing I’m not sure about is if it’s better to use full viper’s gear. If you are decked out in all viper’s then you will be 33 expertise over 100% condi duration for bleed and chill, meaning you can use a sinister helmet to be only 3 expertise over (or backpack to be 6 over). However, necro uses more conditions than just bleed and chill, and the duration increase on your torment and poison might outdo the direct damage gained from using sinister on the helmet or backpack.

The DPS difference is pretty minor either way but hey it’s a thread called “optimized condi necro” so why not.

If you want condi and survivability forget the viper stuff and go with trailblazers gear and weapons, dire trinkets and nighmare 4 trapper 2 runes this gives you a tone ot toughnesss and vitality plus running rise with flesh of the master transfers all the damage to your shambling horrors aslong as they are attacking run rise for extra coni clean and freezing and blood is power to boost the coni damage, you can run flesh golem or chill to the bone I switch back and forth this gives you chill of 87% almost without food plus poison you put on is 46.46% longer if you want more damage out put and lower time go with the runes of undead I will be looking into that once I have full ascended gear but I have run dire with undead and the damage is crazy it was on a ranger but I think the same will be true for the reaper

(( has fanboi moment over Spoj and subli ))

:)

i really need to find an oceanic raid group…

food for thought Dino, I would wonder about the direct damage, over the excess duration. Something to look into i guess. I really wish there was more on crit or on swap condie sigils.

Stajan,
You are not wrong, And you are describing a loadout i use in WvW. But for PvE stuff the added durability is wasted, (at least for me). Its nice to know that I CAN sit around and wait for stuff to die. I just dont like to.

Sublimatio.6981:

I thought trinkets except for amulet were supposed to be sinister, the rest is viper. Look at Spoj’s guide on dulfy.net

That’s only because Viper ascended trinkets (besides amulet) are only obtainable by raids. But as it turns out, Viper exotics are better than Sinister ascended for necro’s because the extra precision from sinister stats are wasted.

should be best to use as much viper as possible and fill in the rest of your condi duration with whatever combo of runes, sigils, and 1-2 sinister pieces gets you closest to 100%.

and as kaga says, necro only needs base 30% crit chance.

Ascended Viper’s Everything except Sinister helmet with Berserker runes puts you at 50.2% condi duration. AFAIK, that’s the most optimal you can get.

I converted my helm yesterday.

@Dinosaurs, it’s an interesting question because of the prevalence of Epidemic as a source of DPS, means that you actually get a substantial amount of alternative damage sources than bleeds alone, but I’m fairly sure that Epidemic is ignorant of condi duration, though not of condi damage. So regarding that question it’s a little different to consider (since the expertise does nothing for it). Still, the majority of a necro’s damage is going to its bleeding, but there is a substantial amount to consider from poison, direct damage, leeches and torment. I think you’re right in that most people underestimate the direct damage.

with food I can get 100% duration I can drop all attacks and run along and get xp for it a short time later when things are dead but buy that time I am onto the next victim.

the build I posted is good for all three levels of play.

the reason I use such a high toughness ant vit is I like to pull many enemies to me and get a large number of them and do the old gw spike which with chill to the bone is crazy strong

Using this build :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRtG2JDNQ5mYzNg1NA7NYpYwi7hFxkYUAYAkAk+AhgOAA-TBSAQBYTJXIVO0GlgRU9HGu/AFOJAA4JAEQ9DkCYRlVA-e

I don’t know why people don’t use the rune of thorn. This rune is amazing (+ 250/300 condi damage in Raid).

I’m a bit overcaped in poison and I have less physical damage than berserker rune but my bleed and my caped poison hit really hard.

You can do the math and see the difference between berserker and thorn (bleed will hit harder with thorn).

Assuming you can get a stack from thorn every 10s, then thorn will outperform other choices. But that begs the question why are you getting hit every 10s? In general, you should be stuck to the boss’s but and out of cleaving range unless you are the tank. Now if the environmental tic of damage is sourced from the Boss (which you should be poisoning), then I can see why Thorn would be the superior option in any circumstance.

Well i know the environmental tic procs mesmer sword block on the boss. So it might be worth testing Thorn runes.

[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11223087/gw012.jpg[img]

Well Slothasor is hitting me with Volatile Arua, so Rune of Thorns is looking much more appealing. Expensive as all crud though.

That’s a great idea, the only problem is fights without damaging auras, which I think right now is bandit trio and sabetha. But otherwise that definitely sounds like a great idea, and the poison condi duration is a nice bonus too.

Collecting 1500 airship parts is daunting, but that kind of increase might be worth it. It might be a good idea to craft another set for fights it doesn’t do anything for, but since those are in the minority it would probably be okay to just have the one.

Sabetha is the only boss who is hard to maintain 5 stacks (2-3 stacks approx)
Sloth and matthias are very easy to stack. The rune expensive but I like the result

And may i point out that it will be a dps increase at least 3 stacks=150 condi damage.

Thank you for giving me a goal to work.

With Viper + zerker runes a poison tick will hit for 205.34, with viper + thorn(5 stacks) the tick will hit for 204.98. Both calcs are 25 might, though more condi dmg favours zerker runes if you were to add banners.

Refernce chart I am using

Alrighty Ima gonna try this theory crafting thing. Tell me if i suck

Using the chart I linked above. necromancer will cap out on bleed and Chill By a mere 2 percent. The chart assumes Full viper and a sigil of malice with traits Barbed precision and cold shoulder. Lingering curse of course does not count to this as it is a base duration not a percentile cap increase.

All that being said. The chart also does NOT include a rune set. Which will serve our purpose nicely in this particular debate.

Assuming 25 might,
Beserker tick poison for 205.34
Thorns (5 stacks, ) will tick 204.98

So, damage wise it looks to be a wash. Beserker will pull ahead i feel simply due to its not as Situational. As you need to be able to maintain the 5 stacks, and it takes at minimum 50 seconds to get there. Also to note, again using the chart, the rune of thorns will also not just over cap, but sail past it by about 15 percent. 2 or 3 percent is negligible. but 15??

The other side of the equation that should be considered is the power side. So far it appears as though via condition damage alone they come out on par with each other. But the beserker rune will outpace in the power department. Reapers can crit very well. so you will always be getting that damage boost. And in a more optimized party, Grace of the land moves your power damage vs condie.

Interesting,
That chart also is missing a sigil slot….

in my opinion. Max Damage Condition reaper
Viper Armour,
Viper Trinkets.
Viper weapons.
Beserker runes.
Sigil of malice,
and sigil of Venom,

100+ percent bleed, Chill, and poison.
82 percent torment.

0.o
ok you can tell me I suck and tell me what i did wrong.

But you’re not caped in poison so this is not comparable. My CPC will hit harder than you no mather what. With 100% poison caped, CPC will have 8 stacks at the same time).

SlyDevil.3952:

With Viper + zerker runes a poison tick will hit for 205.34, with viper + thorn(5 stacks) the tick will hit for 204.98. Both calcs are 25 might, though more condi dmg favours zerker runes if you were to add banners.

Can you give me your math ? I may be wrong but this is how I calc :

Condi damage thorn user : 1954 (cf my previous post)
Condi damage zerk user : 1904 (full viper, helmet sinister)
Both use rabid back because I don’t know the stats of a viper one.

Poison damage thorn user 25 might stacks 5 thorn stacks :
1959 + 750 + 250 = 2959
(2959 * 0.06) + 33,5 = 211.04

Poison damage zerk user 25 might stacks :
1904 + 750 = 2654
[(2654 * 0.06) + 33,5] *1,05 = 202,377

You can check out how thorn stacks go on my old raid video wing 1 (look at my buff and turn off sound) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR4Noaq4Yak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5C9Erxg-FM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzz80xJ7T18

Ropechef.6192:

tell me what i did wrong.

Thorn runes add 45% poison duration, venom sigil adds 20%, condi duration with full viper’s + food/util+malice is 80.4%, so your poison is at 145.4%, a little bit over the cap. Geo would probably be a better sigil over venom, or earth if you can’t rotate through your weapons to get geo procs.

That is barely a 4.5% difference between the two. Considering thorn will take 50 seconds to reach that level and only at 5+ stacks does it outperform Zerk in condi damage alone, I am becoming suspicious that Zerk is better.

Also, Geo outperforms all other options handedly. By timing Death Shroud, Lich and Weapon swap appropriately, you can get it every 9s instead of 10s.

maxinox.6283:

Can you give me your math ? I may be wrong but this is how I calc :

Condi damage thorn user : 1954 (cf my previous post)
Condi damage zerk user : 1904 (full viper, helmet sinister)
Both use rabid back because I don’t know the stats of a viper one.

Poison damage zerk user 25 might stacks :
1904 + 750 = 2654
[(2654 * 0.06) + 33,5] *1,05 = 202,377

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLRDbkhGauxqbw7G4wxSxgJ9BCBdg4eYRMJGFAGAJAA-TxhHQBA4kAQQlfQRJI50LUrHAA9U/pc7PQKAIWWB-e for berserker runes. With 1988 condi damage instead of 1904, could probably be a bit higher if I went looking for the stats on 4stat backs. The build I was using for thorn was trading off some condi dmg for overcapped poison, so it was only at 1858 condi dmg, adding agony sigil and sinister puts it at 1959 condi dmg.

Warning with the skill editor you have to set up 5 runes and not 6. The website add 5% like sigil of bursting. We know the rune don’t do the same thing. I agree with 1959 for the thorn rune.
Thorn rune 1959
Zerk rune 1893 (based on your link, drop your 6th rune )

My set up have more condi damage but it’s more situationnal.

I will give a try to the geo. But in the new wing I don’t go on shroud off cd (emergency) and I keep my 2nd weapon set for CC.

I was kind of wondering about the poison duration sigil over geo or earth.

I think its just a matter of how reliably you can proc the goe sigil when you want it to due to shroud also being a weapon swap.

thanks Sly,

By the way all, this is a cool debate and fun to theory craft. thanks for keeping it light and fun