Guild Wars 2

https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/58zahk/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/

Ty qT

I like how they write prof XY is not viable and then post tiny comment to the main post like: "Ok so I want to make something clear. If we say something like: “something something is not viable”, we don’t mean you can’t play this class/build anymore. For us, viable is almost the same as optimal, since we are a hardcore speedclear guild and only look at stuff that will help us getting fast and good kills."

THEN WRITE FLIPPING DISCLAIMER IN BEGIN OF THE POST. There is enough of monkeys blindly following such posts and thinking prof XY can’t be taken in the raid anymore.

This guild is prime example why raid community gets so toxic on first place.

Raid community is not toxic. Toxic are the people who need that disclaimer.

Shadowstep.6049:

I like how they write prof XY is not viable and then post tiny comment to the main post like: "Ok so I want to make something clear. If we say something like: “something something is not viable”, we don’t mean you can’t play this class/build anymore. For us, viable is almost the same as optimal, since we are a hardcore speedclear guild and only look at stuff that will help us getting fast and good kills."

THEN WRITE FLIPPING DISCLAIMER IN BEGIN OF THE POST. There is enough of monkeys blindly following such posts and thinking prof XY can’t be taken in the raid anymore.

This guild is prime example why raid community gets so toxic on first place.

You should be thankful instead of hating on them. A lot of work goes into these guides and they are a reliable source of builds for everyone to use. If you think that’s the reason why the raid community is toxic, you might wanna take a look at these builds and rotations yourself

Shadowstep.6049:

I like how they write prof XY is not viable and then post tiny comment to the main post like: "Ok so I want to make something clear. If we say something like: “something something is not viable”, we don’t mean you can’t play this class/build anymore. For us, viable is almost the same as optimal, since we are a hardcore speedclear guild and only look at stuff that will help us getting fast and good kills."

THEN WRITE FLIPPING DISCLAIMER IN BEGIN OF THE POST. There is enough of monkeys blindly following such posts and thinking prof XY can’t be taken in the raid anymore.

This guild is prime example why raid community gets so toxic on first place.

I personally can’t keep up with all the changes so these guides and updates are always enjoyable. I choose to run slightly more off meta builds like the ones Brazil makes which are easier to execute with a slight dip in dps. However, these serve as a great guideline. It’s upsetting whenever someone tries to share something with the community, someone has to feel needless threatened. These guys are far from toxic, but the hate you’re sending their way definitely is.

Anyone invested in the game enough to actually be able to find those guides should already know that “viable” there would really mean “passing our stringent requirements”.
After all, if some people can do it in less than complete group, your build would have to be actually detrimental to the fight to not be viable.

So just read it as non-viable meaning “we really, really don’t recommend this” and you’ll be fine.

No need to hate on the people that are trying to help you.

Nice to see most people appreciate what they did for the community

You don’t have to use the guides if you don’t like them for whatever reason.

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

My problem is not what i am reading from it, my problem is that they just so easily label what is useless and not, even though it is far from truth and they are well aware that every raid group will follow that labeling bs causing a lot of griefing. This is toxic.

That is why there should be disclaimer with big letters right in the begin of the post: HELLO THIS IS OPTIMAL BUILDS FOR SPEED ELITIST 6 MAN RUNS. Hello, this build is not the best for speed runs etc. not just: this is not viable. Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

What is worse, now we are going to have revs being insta-kicked from raids (yesterday i had to listen to chrono throwing tantrum about how rev is useless and we should kick him zzzz) which will result in a lot of QQ which once again will result in some massive buffs to revs and cause them being stupidly broken in pvp and wvw.

Yeah its qT’s fault , they think that all ppl have enough brain , but it isnt so :p /s

I appreciate these. I personally do not take much from them beyond knowing limits on each profession, but I know they are helpful.

I’m not some record setter, I don’t care to be, my goal is to finish content, regardles of time it takes, while using the build and set up I and my group finds the most fun

Shadowstep.6049:

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

My problem is not what i am reading from it, my problem is that they just so easily label what is useless and not, even though it is far from truth and they are well aware that every raid group will follow that labeling bs causing a lot of griefing. This is toxic.

That is why there should be disclaimer with big letters right in the begin of the post: HELLO THIS IS OPTIMAL BUILDS FOR SPEED ELITIST 6 MAN RUNS. Hello, this build is not the best for speed runs etc. not just: this is not viable. Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

That’s rather rude to assume. I’ve seen plenty of groups take “other” classes with far from meta build. It’s also up to the raid organizer to choose what he/she wants in his/her raid. Sure a few are going to ask for specifics, but that’s up to them to decide. It’s not unreasonable for them to do this as they don’t know you or your skill level, but they can know your gear/build. You’re welcomed to make your own raid as well with your own requirement as well if you don’t agree.

Thank you qt for giving us the updated information. Your hard work is appreciated.

KickzNGigglez.4958:

Shadowstep.6049:

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

My problem is not what i am reading from it, my problem is that they just so easily label what is useless and not, even though it is far from truth and they are well aware that every raid group will follow that labeling bs causing a lot of griefing. This is toxic.

That is why there should be disclaimer with big letters right in the begin of the post: HELLO THIS IS OPTIMAL BUILDS FOR SPEED ELITIST 6 MAN RUNS. Hello, this build is not the best for speed runs etc. not just: this is not viable. Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

That’s rather rude to assume. I’ve seen plenty of groups take “other” classes with far from meta build. It’s also up to the raid organizer to choose what he/she wants in his/her raid. Sure a few are going to ask for specifics, but that’s up to them to decide. It’s not unreasonable for them to do this as they don’t know you or your skill level, but they can know your gear/build. You’re welcomed to make your own raid as well with your own requirement as well if you don’t agree.

It happens more often than you think, i have multiple characters for raid, i don’t even bother to join on rev anymore due to instakick. Problem is with organizing own groups is in example i brought before: chrono joins, we have a rev, chrono starts to throw tantrum that we should kick rev because rev is “not viable”, we don’t kick rev, chrono quits. Sure, i can organize own group, but i can’t solo raids and i can’t stop players that join the group from blindly following that elitist bs. Chronos are especially an issue right now – you kind of need them and they know it, so they attempt to dictate you what to run and not. Thanks to lazy labeling from qT and people mindlessly following it now you have wonderful choice of either being a jerk and kick rev or lose a chrono tank.

Shadowstep.6049:

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

Reading comprehension and a little bit of thinking of your own help a lot.

Shadowstep.6049:

Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

Nope. Anet dooms those builds by their sledgehammer approach to “balancing”. Unfortunately, the differences between “optimal” and “not recommended” setups are so big, that, for all practical reasons, only the small groups of top skilled raiders can afford to take them. An average pug just has to be aware of the fact, that taking any of the hugely suboptimal builds can signifixcantly negatively impact their success chances.

Shadowstep.6049:

What is worse, now we are going to have revs being insta-kicked from raids (yesterday i had to listen to chrono throwing tantrum about how rev is useless and we should kick him zzzz) which will result in a lot of QQ which once again will result in some massive buffs to revs and cause them being stupidly broken in pvp and wvw.

Which points again to most problems you brought up resulting from not paying attention to what you read.

The post linked up above clearly states that

qT

In the end if your group still decides to run with a Revenant, it won’t make the difference between success or failure in a raid, Rev still brings some nice utility to a group but is now an optional safe, decent DPS choice rather than a mandatory slot in a raid group as it was before the patch.

Reading comprehension ftw.

Astralporing.1957:

Shadowstep.6049:

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

Reading comprehension and a little bit of thinking of your own help a lot.

Shadowstep.6049:

Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

Nope. Anet dooms those builds by their sledgehammer approach to “balancing”. Unfortunately, the differences between “optimal” and “not recommended” setups are so big, that, for all practical reasons, only the small groups of top skilled raiders can afford to take them. An average pug just has to be aware of the fact, that taking any of the hugely suboptimal builds can signifixcantly negatively impact their success chances.

Shadowstep.6049:

What is worse, now we are going to have revs being insta-kicked from raids (yesterday i had to listen to chrono throwing tantrum about how rev is useless and we should kick him zzzz) which will result in a lot of QQ which once again will result in some massive buffs to revs and cause them being stupidly broken in pvp and wvw.

Which points again to most problems you brought up resulting from not paying attention to what you read.

The post linked up above clearly states that

qT

In the end if your group still decides to run with a Revenant, it won’t make the difference between success or failure in a raid, Rev still brings some nice utility to a group but is now an optional safe, decent DPS choice rather than a mandatory slot in a raid group as it was before the patch.

Reading comprehension ftw.

I am well aware what they wrote. They wrote whole paragraph about how you shouldn’t bring rev to raid and then added small sentence in the end that rev is ok. Maybe you are not capable of reading what i wrote and don’t understand my issue with their blanket statement and how community reacts to it. Look in the mirror. Reading comprehension ftw.

Also, Anet balances raids around accepted not elitist levels. Not to mention there are other modes in this game that suffered since HoT came out because of balancing around raids.

Shadowstep.6049:

There is enough of monkeys blindly following such posts and thinking prof XY can’t be taken in the raid anymore.

Read what you wrote — the issue is anyone blindly following any sort of guide, not the people posting the guide.

If you want qT to move their disclaimer to the front of the guide, I recommend (a) telling them (not the forums) and (b) making an attempt to ask nicely. Yelling at them for being the root of toxicity is almost guaranteed to get people arguing with you about what toxic means, about what cause or causes there might be, and about whether you’ve accurately linked cause and effect — none of that encourages qT to edit their article or to get monkeys to take off their blindfolds.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Shadowstep.6049:

There is enough of monkeys blindly following such posts and thinking prof XY can’t be taken in the raid anymore.

Read what you wrote — the issue is anyone blindly following any sort of guide, not the people posting the guide.

If you want qT to move their disclaimer to the front of the guide, I recommend (a) telling them (not the forums) and (b) making an attempt to ask nicely. Yelling at them for being the root of toxicity is almost guaranteed to get people arguing with you about what toxic means, about what cause or causes there might be, and about whether you’ve accurately linked cause and effect — none of that encourages qT to edit their article or to get monkeys to take off their blindfolds.

Or he can make his own guides. It’s much easier to criticize than create.

And there was nothing wrong with stating that rev when from a staple in most compositions to an optional one.

I see nothing wrong with the guide.

They said if you want to optimize for fastest potential times, run with x and not y.

They didn’t say using x makes your raid impossible. Optimalization =/= winning. By that I mean you can win without optimizing, and conversely you can lose while optimizing.

Thank you for this spreadsheet qT. Awesome job as usual.
One tiny suggestion tho (to make ppl understand better and get less angry), substitute “viable” with “optimal”.
“Non-viable” is term that describes something that cannot live and is pretty radical. “Not optimal” might be a proper term and would create less negative feedback.
Also , people needs to be reassured that raids are not that toxic and tehnically, all are mechanic wise dependent more than “dream” composition. They can indeed be completed with any comp but “optimal composition/builds” means better times, more room for small errors and less overall struggle.
Ty again

I’m curious as to what that ranger dps would be when they’ve got 2 mesmers farting ethereal fields everywhere instead of being able to reliably land fire/poison finishers.

MorganLeFay.5816:

Thank you for this spreadsheet qT. Awesome job as usual.
One tiny suggestion tho (to make ppl understand better and get less angry), substitute “viable” with “optimal”.

I’d suggest “recommended”, as not all of those builds there are optimal, but those that are close, or offer something in exchange, are still considered okay.

Fay.2357:

I’m curious as to what that ranger dps would be when they’ve got 2 mesmers farting ethereal fields everywhere instead of being able to reliably land fire/poison finishers.

Or when a boss gets out of the traps/bonfire. Actually that is valid for any builds and people mostly forget about it. Condi necro is lower but does not lose any thing (actually gains in intensity) when the boss moves because they are ranged and do not rely on pulsating fields.
One can also argue that Ele or thief are actually more prone to be under 90% health and hence lose scholar 6th bonus very often (VG dot ticking for example). When I look at video, even from renown guilds, I notice that scholar is not reached 100% time, nor are boons.
That is why the qT guild provides a benchmark in ideal condition (even with realistic buffs). From here one can decide to make it so the conditions will be met (making VG not moving or ignoring greens, no updraft Gorse….) or choose a lower DPS option that will be easier to reach its max DPS because he is not hindered by fight mechanics.

Shadowstep.6049:

How is it helping when they write: build X is not viable.

My problem is not what i am reading from it, my problem is that they just so easily label what is useless and not, even though it is far from truth and they are well aware that every raid group will follow that labeling bs causing a lot of griefing. This is toxic.

That is why there should be disclaimer with big letters right in the begin of the post: HELLO THIS IS OPTIMAL BUILDS FOR SPEED ELITIST 6 MAN RUNS. Hello, this build is not the best for speed runs etc. not just: this is not viable. Posts like this pretty much doom any player that is maining class that is currently “not viable” for qT elitist speed runs.

What is worse, now we are going to have revs being insta-kicked from raids (yesterday i had to listen to chrono throwing tantrum about how rev is useless and we should kick him zzzz) which will result in a lot of QQ which once again will result in some massive buffs to revs and cause them being stupidly broken in pvp and wvw.

People are sheeps, they will believe anything… Just ignore this “top pro nobodies” and play the game. You will feel much better

First things first: Thank you qT for providing us with these guides as well as the commentary as to the how’s and why’s you made the decisions you did.

Second thing second: the raid community as a whole is not toxic. I’ve come across plenty of pug groups that are warm an welcoming of a pug/guest so long as there’s open communication. If I had had to make a silly comparison about it I would say pug-ing is like speed-dating. If you don’t like the person across the table from you in about a min or two? You’re moving on to the next person.

Lastly, the whole optimal vs viable debate has been around since day 1 when dungeons were a thing. Generally speaking, everything is viable. We’ve seen things such as 10 [same class] runs, 3-4-5-6 man runs, [mechanic] avoidance runs (e.g. no updraft). So, that being said there is plenty of margin for creativity of class selection, builds, and composition. Now, where does optimal comes in? Optimal (or meta) is effectively how you go about clearing an encounter the fastest and cleanest way possible (at least in GW2).

By today’ standards that means that 2 Druid, 2 PS, 2 Chrono, and 4 DPS have the potential to clear today’s raid content in the fastest time possible. Granted, there’s a huge gotcha, Playing the classes alone will not get you a free kill. The qT folks have gone as far as providing rotation videos for each profession so in order to maximize the use of the optimal comp you have to be able to adhere (as much as possible) to the optimal rotations. E.G. You can’t just grab the optimal comp and expect to clear something by just pew-pewing your autoattack.

So, does that mean that EVERYone has to adhere to the meta if they want to clear a raid boss? No, not at all. In fact, your squad members may actually do worse if they’re not used to the fragile builds nor know when to use what skills (E.G. Druids blowing their Empowerment Glyphs during VG invuln state before splitting). At that point I would say your squad has a better chance at clearing the content with their sub-optimal builds that they’re more comfortable and experienced with rather than trying to awkwardly play with something they don’t know how to.

Does that mean we should be upset when players get kicked from LFG groups because they’re not optimal? Well, yes and no. If the LFG post is clear about expectation in regards to class, gear, and experience? Well, you have only yourself to blame if you try to force anything else upon that group. However, everyone has the freedom to post whatever they want as their requests. I mean I’ve seen something as ridiculous as “Sexy Korean Girls only”. Did I meet those standards? No not at all, nor did I really want to know what they meant by those standards. So I just poked around a bit more and found another group asking for a Druid. I popped in said “Hi, Magi or Condi” and after a bit more conversation found that my “dating profile” matched what the squad was looking for.

TL;DR
qT (and similar folks) are such a doing us a great service publishing their guides and findings (with appropriate commentary and direction). If you don’t like what they published or don’t agree with it? That’s fine, there are plenty of people that feel that way and can make their own groups that are less strict. Likewise, those who are in favor of the meta will use qT’s guide as a standard/baseline for their squad members.

Condi ranger actually really fun to play xD

condi ranger with take root is so fun. But when people play condi ranger when there is no druid in the sub squad, It triggers me.

If you only hv1 druid the druid should go alone in group. I am confident to solo heal druid actually more fun
But yeah can take two druids plus the condi ranger for certain boss I suppose