Guild Wars 2

Sorin Noroku.5342:

Astralporing.1957:

Sorin Noroku.5342:

The most logical place to apply a gate is raids.

Nope. Considering the exclusivity and narrowness of that gate, it’s the least logical option. It’s just completely out of place compared to all the rest of the game

I ask you then, where would YOU have placed a gate for legendary armor that was not crafting with the mastery like the weapons, that could show prestige? The only location that made sense to me was raids. Now, remember, it must be in a location that is exclusive to HoT as wether you disliked it or I liked it, which to be honest at the time I didn’t care, it was a selling point of HoT. We can’t place it in WvW, as nonHoT players do that too. Can’t just drop it in PvP for same reason. Sure they could have you grind out the metas over and over and over for a chance at the drop, but then we have things like chak eggs. Or we could have it like the new weapons, which is running around the world and then spending gold, which for more casual players is just as bad as raiding, because then you have to farm AB nonstop. Not many enjoy that. The next logical sense to me would be to tie it to raiding. It’s a new thing, they needed something to push people in that way, to play it and learn the hard content. So they put legendary armor gate there.

we have HOT stat ascended armor in pvp that im pretty sure free players dont have access to. we can have legendary armor in both of those places.

Sorin Noroku.5342:

I ask you then, where would YOU have placed a gate for legendary armor that was not crafting with the mastery like the weapons, that could show prestige? The only location that made sense to me was raids. Now, remember, it must be in a location that is exclusive to HoT as wether you disliked it or I liked it, which to be honest at the time I didn’t care, it was a selling point of HoT. We can’t place it in WvW, as nonHoT players do that too. Can’t just drop it in PvP for same reason. Sure they could have you grind out the metas over and over and over for a chance at the drop, but then we have things like chak eggs. Or we could have it like the new weapons, which is running around the world and then spending gold, which for more casual players is just as bad as raiding, because then you have to farm AB nonstop. Not many enjoy that. The next logical sense to me would be to tie it to raiding. It’s a new thing, they needed something to push people in that way, to play it and learn the hard content. So they put legendary armor gate there.

Even one HoT-exclusive collection piece in first tier makes the whole thing HoT-exclusive too, which is kinda invalidates your whole post.

sophiewhite.3149:

we have HOT stat ascended armor in pvp that im pretty sure free players dont have access to. we can have legendary armor in both of those places.

The HoT ascended PvP armor is new. It also doesn’t show much prestige (see how many people who got The Ascension prior to the new change felt about the tier thresholds being removed). Remember, I said a gate that would make it feel prestigious, also, why would PvP need legendary armor? Why would they need a legend back either is my question too…

WvW I could see needing legendary armor, as it actually uses your current equipped gear. But how do you gate WvW legendary armor? What would you be able to do in WvW that warrants it?

Rednik.3809:

Even one HoT-exclusive collection piece in first tier makes the whole thing HoT-exclusive too, which is kinda invalidates your whole post.

The question was for what gate do you put it behind in another section of the game that would make sense. To me, raids is a logical gate, that is for HoT. If they only wanted to make it HoT only, that’s easy. Just not have the collection unlock unless you have it. Just like s2 weapons needing a mastery. They wanted it to be behind a skill wall. What skill wall would you use if you didn’t use raids?

However, this is starting to get off topic.

sophiewhite.3149:

and if they do make content that can only be completed by a minority (raids are that currently. most players dont raid) then itll just be sold until its lost all prestige like raids are right now.people can still be carried through any level of difficult content if the others are good enough. you seem to think this is only a problem because raids are “easy” for exp players. newish players struggle rather hard which is why the raid population is so low.

First of all not everyone buys Raid kills.
Second, for the average casual player Raid kills are expensive, so it takes some grind to get that gold to buy the Raid kills.
Third, funny thing when talking about “prestige” while some ask for Legendary Armor to be available in let’s say WvW. In WvW you don’t even have to grind gold to buy anything like Raid kills, you just follow a tag with your level 2 character in white gear and get all the rewards offered by WvW. So using CURRENT systems, you’d need to press 1 on your keyboard and get Legendary Armor, how prestigious.
And how would Legendary Armor from PvP work? It takes absolutely no skill to get the Ascended set in S5, since you are rewarded when you lose. As for the Ascension, you could back during S1-S4 pay to get carried by a group of pros. And after they made it clear that you can still get it, it’s only a matter of time, you don’t even have to get beyond Sapphire, just get the division crossing achievement by crossing to Sapphire and in a few seasons you’ll get the Ascension. Again, prestigious indeed.

At least there is some amount of effort required to get the armor from Raids, either doing the encounters themselves or grinding for the gold to buy the Raid kills. I’d love to read about an alternative method of getting Legendary Armor involving PvP and/or WvW that actually takes a tiny bit of effort and requires a tiny bit of skill, because the current reward systems of PvP/WvW do not exactly require skill.

Fourth: got some data showing that raid population is low?

maddoctor.2738:

At least there is some amount of effort required to get the armor from Raids, either doing the encounters themselves or grinding for the gold to buy the Raid kills. I’d love to read about an alternative method of getting Legendary Armor involving PvP and/or WvW that actually takes a tiny bit of effort and requires a tiny bit of skill, because the current reward systems of PvP/WvW do not exactly require skill.

Fourth: got some data showing that raid population is low?

You know, saying that fighting against a few lines of script is actually somehow requires more skill than fighting against alive opponents – this is hilariously funny.

Rednik.3809:

You know, saying that fighting against a few lines of script is actually somehow requires more skill than fighting against alive opponents – this is hilariously funny.

It is indeed funny but that’s the sad reality of the situation. The main issue is that in WvW/PvP you don’t have to actively fight opponents. In PvP you can lose and get all the rewards, just afk at the start and boom you get nearly full Ascended armor set, and since you don’t need to reach some high division to get rewards you’ll have to fight only really low skill players to get that too. A Raid boss is a much more “skilled” opponent than the average low Bronze player, who is equal in skill to a Moa in Queensdale.

In WvW you let others do the fighting while you follow and use aoe skills to tag as many people as possible for maximum rewards. Which is the same as in the open world PvE. In both cases individual skill means next to nothing, while in most cases those “lines of script” require all players to pull their weights and it’s much harder to get carried, unless the group is good enough to low-man the encounter and carry the trash. How many groups are actually capable of doing that?

Sorin Noroku.5342:

sophiewhite.3149:

we have HOT stat ascended armor in pvp that im pretty sure free players dont have access to. we can have legendary armor in both of those places.

The HoT ascended PvP armor is new. It also doesn’t show much prestige (see how many people who got The Ascension prior to the new change felt about the tier thresholds being removed). Remember, I said a gate that would make it feel prestigious, also, why would PvP need legendary armor? Why would they need a legend back either is my question too…

WvW I could see needing legendary armor, as it actually uses your current equipped gear. But how do you gate WvW legendary armor? What would you be able to do in WvW that warrants it?

However, this is starting to get off topic.

your pretending it has to be super easy to get it in pvp like the armor is. im just suggesting its possible to keep it from core players which was your original argument. now youve moved it to how would you do it. im willing to bet you could put some insanely long term achievments into there pretty easily. “obtain 1 million kills” “take 5,000 keeps” etc. you could really make that long term. seeing how even behind raids its not showing prestiege just time invested. like all legendary items. raids in any game dont require skill per say. you just copy people better than you and become successful. their tactics their builds their rotations. “get to legendary rank in spvp 3 times” could be another. it shows true skill much more than raids. especially with the new system. im just spit balling here. there are people paid to do things like this. anyone with some time and creative thinking could come up with it.

maddoctor.2738:

sophiewhite.3149:

and if they do make content that can only be completed by a minority (raids are that currently. most players dont raid) then itll just be sold until its lost all prestige like raids are right now.people can still be carried through any level of difficult content if the others are good enough. you seem to think this is only a problem because raids are “easy” for exp players. newish players struggle rather hard which is why the raid population is so low.

First of all not everyone buys Raid kills.
Second, for the average casual player Raid kills are expensive, so it takes some grind to get that gold to buy the Raid kills.
Third, funny thing when talking about “prestige” while some ask for Legendary Armor to be available in let’s say WvW. In WvW you don’t even have to grind gold to buy anything like Raid kills, you just follow a tag with your level 2 character in white gear and get all the rewards offered by WvW. So using CURRENT systems, you’d need to press 1 on your keyboard and get Legendary Armor, how prestigious.
And how would Legendary Armor from PvP work? It takes absolutely no skill to get the Ascended set in S5, since you are rewarded when you lose. As for the Ascension, you could back during S1-S4 pay to get carried by a group of pros. And after they made it clear that you can still get it, it’s only a matter of time, you don’t even have to get beyond Sapphire, just get the division crossing achievement by crossing to Sapphire and in a few seasons you’ll get the Ascension. Again, prestigious indeed.

At least there is some amount of effort required to get the armor from Raids, either doing the encounters themselves or grinding for the gold to buy the Raid kills. I’d love to read about an alternative method of getting Legendary Armor involving PvP and/or WvW that actually takes a tiny bit of effort and requires a tiny bit of skill, because the current reward systems of PvP/WvW do not exactly require skill.

Fourth: got some data showing that raid population is low?

you ask for data showing the raiding population is low. why bother asking. anet doesnt release it. just go look at lfg of raiding for 8 hours. ive done it. then go look at the lfg for auric basin. see the difference? your not going to take any of this seriously i know that already. but from what ive seen its a very small community. everything from the lfg to streams to posts. its a minority of the game i dont really think you can argue that unless of course you have the numbers and can prove its actually large. all youve proved is you can buy the legendary backpiece in pvp. which you can do in raids. so we should just remove it from the game entirely and never implement it because it can be bought is what your getting at? i get you dont like pvp or wvw. thats fine. but having a very wanted item locked behind a extreme minority of the playerbase is dumb.

maddoctor.2738:

It is indeed funny but that’s the sad reality of the situation. The main issue is that in WvW/PvP you don’t have to actively fight opponents. In PvP you can lose and get all the rewards, just afk at the start and boom you get nearly full Ascended armor set, and since you don’t need to reach some high division to get rewards you’ll have to fight only really low skill players to get that too. A Raid boss is a much more “skilled” opponent than the average low Bronze player, who is equal in skill to a Moa in Queensdale.

In WvW you let others do the fighting while you follow and use aoe skills to tag as many people as possible for maximum rewards. Which is the same as in the open world PvE. In both cases individual skill means next to nothing, while in most cases those “lines of script” require all players to pull their weights and it’s much harder to get carried, unless the group is good enough to low-man the encounter and carry the trash. How many groups are actually capable of doing that?

In raids you can buy 1 fullclear with AB-farmed gold, then tag stuff in training groups, get shards or even boss kills, and buy whatever you want with shards.
And?

Sorin Noroku.5342:

Astralporing.1957:

Sorin Noroku.5342:

The most logical place to apply a gate is raids.

Nope. Considering the exclusivity and narrowness of that gate, it’s the least logical option. It’s just completely out of place compared to all the rest of the game

I ask you then, where would YOU have placed a gate for legendary armor that was not crafting with the mastery like the weapons, that could show prestige?

Prestige? sPvP tournaments probably. There’s not much of a prestige to be had in raids. They are exclusive, but not prestigious.

Sorin Noroku.5342:

The only location that made sense to me was raids. Now, remember, it must be in a location that is exclusive to HoT as wether you disliked it or I liked it, which to be honest at the time I didn’t care, it was a selling point of HoT. We can’t place it in WvW, as nonHoT players do that too. Can’t just drop it in PvP for same reason. Sure they could have you grind out the metas over and over and over for a chance at the drop, but then we have things like chak eggs. Or we could have it like the new weapons, which is running around the world and then spending gold, which for more casual players is just as bad as raiding, because then you have to farm AB nonstop. Not many enjoy that. The next logical sense to me would be to tie it to raiding.

There’s a major difference between the new weapon requirements, and raiding ones. First is done through content most players are supposed to do. The second is done through content that, by design (and devs statements) was not meant for majority. HoT map completion and metas was something Anet assumed most players will be doing anyway. Raids were supposed to be a side content only for those that enjoyed that kind of thing.

Sorin Noroku.5342:

It’s a new thing, they needed something to push people in that way, to play it and learn the hard content. So they put legendary armor gate there.

What they needed was to entice the players to try raids, to see whether they’ll like it. Legendary armor is not that. It’s way too heavyhanded, and requires too much grind in raids.

You can’t push people to have fun. It never works. And if you try too hard, you will only cause an opposite reaction.

Rednik.3809:

In raids you can buy 1 fullclear with AB-farmed gold, then tag stuff in training groups, get shards or even boss kills, and buy whatever you want with shards.
And?

If you can’t see the difference between buying a Raid kill (how many full AB-ML to get enough for a complete Legendary Armor set?) and afking for free and getting a reward then I can’t help you.

sophiewhite.3149:

you ask for data showing the raiding population is low. why bother asking. anet doesnt release it.

Low compared to what exactly? By following your logic all parts of the game other than AB ML have low population.
Ever checked the LFG how many people run Challenge Mode 100 Fractals? How about Arah P4 runs? Any other dungeon run? T3 fractals? Non-AB HoT maps you might find 1 listing tops. Judging by the LFG the game is dead and only AB ML is what people are running. They should rename it to Octovine Wars 2. That’s a far more extreme issue than the popularity of Raids.

i get you dont like pvp or wvw. thats fine. but having a very wanted item locked behind a extreme minority of the playerbase is dumb.

I play both pvp and wvw, I already got the Ascension before S5 started. The reward systems for both pvp and wvw are terrible and allow players to earn any reward of those game modes by not actively playing those game modes.

Astralporing.1957:

Prestige? sPvP tournaments probably. There’s not much of a prestige to be had in raids. They are exclusive, but not prestigious.

It depends from the point of view you are looking at. I know a lot of players finding raids prestigious and see GW2 PvP as a cheap & boring freakshow.

Astralporing.1957:

Prestige? sPvP tournaments probably. There’s not much of a prestige to be had in raids. They are exclusive, but not prestigious.

So… something like a sPvP tournament for Raids would be prestigious? Like that Raid challenge with different teams trying to clear the Raid wings with a set of rules?

maddoctor.2738:

sophiewhite.3149:

you ask for data showing the raiding population is low. why bother asking. anet doesnt release it.

Low compared to what exactly? By following your logic all parts of the game other than AB ML have low population.
Ever checked the LFG how many people run Challenge Mode 100 Fractals? How about Arah P4 runs? Any other dungeon run? T3 fractals? Non-AB HoT maps you might find 1 listing tops. Judging by the LFG the game is dead and only AB ML is what people are running. They should rename it to Octovine Wars 2. That’s a far more extreme issue than the popularity of Raids.

i get you dont like pvp or wvw. thats fine. but having a very wanted item locked behind a extreme minority of the playerbase is dumb.

I play both pvp and wvw, I already got the Ascension before S5 started. The reward systems for both pvp and wvw are terrible and allow players to earn any reward of those game modes by not actively playing those game modes.

so your saying you can afk in spvp and get to legendary 3 times in a row? stop assuming pips are the only way to lock a reward behind something. achievments are a thing you know. and yes there are tons of groups running fractals daily. maybe not challenge mode but thats only 1 fractal. check around reset. raids only are populated monday. then it dies.

Oh look the same crew who say easy mode raids are needed are the same ones who now are saying legendary armor ismy even special anyway.

Whatever helps you guys rationalize away your shortcomings works, right?

sophiewhite.3149:

so your saying you can afk in spvp and get to legendary 3 times in a row?

You don’t need to get to Legendary 3 times in a row to get the Ascension… now that they changed how divisions I’m not sure how the division crossing achievement work.

maybe not challenge mode but thats only 1 fractal. check around reset. raids only are populated monday. then it dies.

You compared the activity that attract more players than everything else in the game combined, with Raids. You can check and compare Raids and Fractals on their reset days.

Of course it’s populated on Monday and then it dies, remember how Raid rewards are behind a WEEKLY lock? Remove the lock and you’ll see way more players running Raids during the week, but that would probably cause more problems than it would solve, there is a reason it’s there.

maddoctor.2738:

If you can’t see the difference between buying a Raid kill (how many full AB-ML to get enough for a complete Legendary Armor set?) and afking for free and getting a reward then I can’t help you.

If you can’t see the difference between very-very narrow slice of PvE and whole game modes – I can’t help you either. Because if I will stop pointing finger at raids only and start talking about nobrain farming trains and activities in PvE… well, you know that comparison will be kinda one-sided, and not in your favor.

Rednik.3809:

If you can’t see the difference between very-very narrow slice of PvE and whole game modes – I can’t help you either. Because if I will stop pointing finger at raids only and start talking about nobrain farming trains and activities in PvE… well, you know that comparison will be kinda one-sided, and not in your favor.

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

On the other hand not every bronze, silver, gold and platinum pvp player is able to be successful in raids because those leagues are kinda trash tier. ^^

So overall, it’s huge bs to compare between PvE and PvP like this but we will see this again and again in the future. Although it’s nonsense.

Rednik.3809:

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

No the discussion didn’t start there, you are mistaken or are trying to change it on purpose to suit your needs. It started here, at least the part that concerns me:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/raid-selling-own-lfg-right/page/2#post6474372

Claims against the prestige of Raids because people can buy the Raid kills. But since a fraction of a tiny minority is selling the Raid kills, it’s irrelevant.

Also, I never compared Raiders to top PvP players, I compared the rewards of Raids with the rewards of PvP. And as I said multiple times, getting any of the PvP rewards does NOT require you to win an official ESL cup, it requires afking in a corner. While getting any rewards in Raids requires to actually beat the content, or be one of that fraction of a tiny minority that buys them, which as explained above is irrelevant.

So doing content (Raids) versus afking in a corner (PvP).

Yeah, that comparison fits exactly because even the “casual” PvP player won’t be able to win an ESL tournament and win prizes of greater value than ingame rewards..

I do agree that selling raids cheapens the achievements etc. But consider the benefits. The existence of raid selling creates rewarding content with a higher level of difficulty. I think that’s a very valuable addition to this game. It is in essence, ‘hard mode’ for raids.

Additionally you could even argue that it unlocks ‘easy mode’ for raids. Players can spend time earning gold however they want, and then get an easier kill. You can even do this to finish up the envoy armor achievements, and then just do the easy kills weekly to get legendary armor eventually.

Raid selling is pretty much players putting their own content into the game, satisfying demand for both elite pve players and more casual players.

maddoctor.2738:

sophiewhite.3149:

so your saying you can afk in spvp and get to legendary 3 times in a row?

You don’t need to get to Legendary 3 times in a row to get the Ascension… now that they changed how divisions I’m not sure how the division crossing achievement work.

maybe not challenge mode but thats only 1 fractal. check around reset. raids only are populated monday. then it dies.

You compared the activity that attract more players than everything else in the game combined, with Raids. You can check and compare Raids and Fractals on their reset days.

Of course it’s populated on Monday and then it dies, remember how Raid rewards are behind a WEEKLY lock? Remove the lock and you’ll see way more players running Raids during the week, but that would probably cause more problems than it would solve, there is a reason it’s there.

i feel like your purposely ignoring my comments because it doesnt fit your agenda. we are not talking about the ascension. its like your comparing raid armor in raids with ascended armor from raids. one is way easier than the other. if they actually made legendary armor in pvp getting to legendary 3 times could be one of the achievments. stop ignoring the majority of my comment so you can completely pretend pvp is super easy and you can afk in it and get legendary armor. no. you can create achievments that are actually difficult and require skill. its not hard. im betting your going to ignore this too though.

sophiewhite.3149:

i feel like your purposely ignoring my comments because it doesnt fit your agenda.

In my very first post I used these:

So using CURRENT systems

and

I’d love to read about an alternative method of getting Legendary Armor involving PvP and/or WvW that actually takes a tiny bit of effort and requires a tiny bit of skill, because the current reward systems of PvP/WvW do not exactly require skill.

The old Ascension (pre S5) did require an amount of skill to get because it was time limited. You had to get to Diamond once and Ruby 3 times in order to do the Division crossing achievement, and get enough wins with 3 different professions, within the time limit, to acquire the Ascension. Then they broke everything with S5.

Can they make hard achievements in PvP? Of course they can.
Will they add such hard achievements in PvP? That’s the question.

I never talked about what they can do. I was talking about what they currently do.

maddoctor.2738:

sophiewhite.3149:

so your saying you can afk in spvp and get to legendary 3 times in a row?

You don’t need to get to Legendary 3 times in a row to get the Ascension… now that they changed how divisions I’m not sure how the division crossing achievement work.

maybe not challenge mode but thats only 1 fractal. check around reset. raids only are populated monday. then it dies.

You compared the activity that attract more players than everything else in the game combined, with Raids. You can check and compare Raids and Fractals on their reset days.

Of course it’s populated on Monday and then it dies, remember how Raid rewards are behind a WEEKLY lock? Remove the lock and you’ll see way more players running Raids during the week, but that would probably cause more problems than it would solve, there is a reason it’s there.

To get the precursor wings for PvP you can pretty much grind out PvP to get them, no biggy. However if you want the legendary you need to do the achievements which will take a while as you need to play 3 matches a day for 60 days I believe and there’s a certain amount of wins per class, wins, different classes and rank points you need and it get higher each tier. The division boundaries has changed to the reward chests so you need to get 1 reward chest for 1st tier, then 2 for the 2nd etc, however your previous reward chests don’t count for the new one. So you can’t just get to Byzantium in rewards and be done with the whole lot.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

But isn’t it highly uninteresting for this topic which game mode requires more skill to do successfully?
It’s more about: where do i get rewards without any skill at all?

You can be absolutely awful at pvp (or afk most of the time) and still grind all rewards. It just takes longer.

But you will have a very hard time getting any raid reward at all if you contribute nothing. (Unless you pay others of course)

All caused by the simple fact that raids can just replace you while pvp teams have to live with the trash teammates they get.

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

Considering the fact that quite a few pvpers and wvw players have come from games like old school Everquest and DaoC, yes. And if you think the raid content in GW2 is comparable to a fraction of those games in terms of difficulty and organization required, you’re both ignorant and delusional.

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

Considering the fact that quite a few pvpers and wvw players have come from games like old school Everquest and DaoC, yes. And if you think the raid content in GW2 is comparable to a fraction of those games in terms of difficulty and organization required, you’re both ignorant and delusional.

Other games mean jack kitten to me, we are talking about GW2 here.
What if I told you that quite a few PvE players came from other competitive PvP games? Does that make them good PvP players (Looking at myself, I can safely say it doesn’t)?
Instead of claiming that all those hardcore pvp/wvw players are so good at pve, why don’t you go ahead and prove it?

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

Considering the fact that quite a few pvpers and wvw players have come from games like old school Everquest and DaoC, yes. And if you think the raid content in GW2 is comparable to a fraction of those games in terms of difficulty and organization required, you’re both ignorant and delusional.

Other games mean jack kitten to me, we are talking about GW2 here.
What if I told you that quite a few PvE players came from other competitive PvP games? Does that make them good PvP players (Looking at myself, I can safely say it doesn’t)?
Instead of claiming that all those hardcore pvp/wvw players are so good at pve, why don’t you go ahead and prove it?

Did you even bother to read the previous comment that I responded to in the first place that brought this topic up? What I said was simply a response to what they said that they shouldnt assume that pvpers were not capable of doing pve stuff. Its just a matter of having no interest in it. The argument goes both ways, that was my whole point.

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

Considering the fact that quite a few pvpers and wvw players have come from games like old school Everquest and DaoC, yes. And if you think the raid content in GW2 is comparable to a fraction of those games in terms of difficulty and organization required, you’re both ignorant and delusional.

Other games mean jack kitten to me, we are talking about GW2 here.
What if I told you that quite a few PvE players came from other competitive PvP games? Does that make them good PvP players (Looking at myself, I can safely say it doesn’t)?
Instead of claiming that all those hardcore pvp/wvw players are so good at pve, why don’t you go ahead and prove it?

Did you even bother to read the previous comment that I responded to in the first place that brought this topic up? What I said was simply a response to what they said that they shouldnt assume that pvpers were not capable of doing pve stuff. Its just a matter of having no interest in it. The argument goes both ways, that was my whole point.

I’m sorry, it’s getting a bit hard to follow because I don’t bother reading some comments of the regular raid haters.
I did read your previous comments, my personal favorite quote from you was:

since condi builds are no skill cheese

.

I agree that the argument goes both ways, there are players from every mode that are capable of playing other modes, but the discussion started as comparison between amount of effort required to get reward per game mode, and the facts are: You can get any/most PvP/WvW rewards simply by AFKing, you cannot do that in raids unless you buy them.

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

Coconut.7082:

Nikkinella.8254:

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

What in the world are you talking about? Anyone and everyone can indeed get any WvW or PvP reward without putting any kind of effort, their reward systems are designed so you don’t need to actually be good at those game modes to be rewarded.

You said that the same is true for Raids because you can buy the raid kills. However it’s people like you who say that a very tiny minority is raiding, and a small portion of that tiny minority is selling Raid kills. So we are talking about a small fraction of a tiny minority. How is that tiny amount of players who are getting the Raid kills through an easy method devaluing the “prestige” of Raids?

Discussion originally started when you tried to make a statement that raids are actually require higher skill than pvp modes, and tried to prove it by comparing most basic level in them with most advanced level in PvE. Which is kinda hilarious.
Can you say that qT/DnT/SC/etc cant actually win in official ESL world cup in spvp? Or defeat some top guild like old RG in wvw clash? I don’t think so.

I can’t speak for every pve raiding guild but I know for a fact that there are people in dnt and qt who were/are pro level pvpers in other games. Don’t mistake a lack of interest or dedication with a lack of skill.

The same could be said of pvpers that don’t raid in this game. Its not that we cant, we just find it boring and have no interest in the pve content in this game.

Were those pvpers, pro raiders tho?

(this is going in such a dumb direction)

Considering the fact that quite a few pvpers and wvw players have come from games like old school Everquest and DaoC, yes. And if you think the raid content in GW2 is comparable to a fraction of those games in terms of difficulty and organization required, you’re both ignorant and delusional.

Other games mean jack kitten to me, we are talking about GW2 here.
What if I told you that quite a few PvE players came from other competitive PvP games? Does that make them good PvP players (Looking at myself, I can safely say it doesn’t)?
Instead of claiming that all those hardcore pvp/wvw players are so good at pve, why don’t you go ahead and prove it?

Did you even bother to read the previous comment that I responded to in the first place that brought this topic up? What I said was simply a response to what they said that they shouldnt assume that pvpers were not capable of doing pve stuff. Its just a matter of having no interest in it. The argument goes both ways, that was my whole point.

I’m sorry, it’s getting a bit hard to follow because I don’t bother reading some comments of the regular raid haters.
I did read your previous comments, my personal favorite quote from you was:

since condi builds are no skill cheese

.

I agree that the argument goes both ways, there are players from every mode that are capable of playing other modes, but the discussion started as comparison between amount of effort required to get reward per game mode, and the facts are: You can get any/most PvP/WvW rewards simply by AFKing, you cannot do that in raids unless you buy them.

Well, that’s something I agree with you on. I’m not a fan of how effortless you can get rewards in pvp/wvw. Any idiot can do it the way its set up now. That’s on Anet though and their terrible design of the reward system. They could easily make it into something that would require skill. Alot of us have suggested ways on how to do that exactly. Totally ignored, they want to do things their own fail way apparently. Then wonder why pvp isnt esports worthy.

Coconut.7082:

but the discussion started as comparison between amount of effort required to get reward per game mode, and the facts are: You can get any/most PvP/WvW rewards simply by AFKing, you cannot do that in raids unless you buy them.

Yep that’s how it started and then someone twisted it into “you are saying that raids require higher skill level than pvp modes”, which I never actually did claim.
I never expected this to turn into a “who is better? a pro pvper or a raider?” kind of argument because that comparison is just silly.

That’s on Anet though and their terrible design of the reward system.

Exactly. Players are asking for legendary armor to be available through other types of content, like pvp and wvw, that’s totally understandable. But the current reward systems simply won’t work, they need to come up with a far better reward system that incorporates at least some amount of skill before adding something like Legendary armor as a reward.

Maybe some day they’ll figure out a good reward system.

maddoctor.2738:

Coconut.7082:

but the discussion started as comparison between amount of effort required to get reward per game mode, and the facts are: You can get any/most PvP/WvW rewards simply by AFKing, you cannot do that in raids unless you buy them.

Yep that’s how it started and then someone twisted it into “you are saying that raids require higher skill level than pvp modes”, which I never actually did claim.
I never expected this to turn into a “who is better? a pro pvper or a raider?” kind of argument because that comparison is just silly.

That’s on Anet though and their terrible design of the reward system.

Exactly. Players are asking for legendary armor to be available through other types of content, like pvp and wvw, that’s totally understandable. But the current reward systems simply won’t work, they need to come up with a far better reward system that incorporates at least some amount of skill before adding something like Legendary armor as a reward.

Maybe some day they’ll figure out a good reward system.

That’s all I was asking for. I’d like to be able to get legendary armor in pvp or wvw since I cant stand pve in this game. We’ve suggested ways on how they could do it that would require actual effort to get. Total silence from Anet. So i’m not holding my breath on it happening anytime soon. They completely ignore any and all feedback from wvw to begin with, then just do what they want anyway. Thats how we end up with crap like desert borderlands and golem week that no wvw player would ever want.

Nikkinella.8254:

We’ve suggested ways on how they could do it that would require actual effort to get.

Out of curiosity do you have any links for threads with those suggestions? I’m more interested in WvW rewards because that’s the hardest to balance, and had the least amount of effort by Anet. At least the Ascension in S1-S4 was challenging to get (pre S5, when it was also under a time limit)

maddoctor.2738:

At least the Ascension in S1-S4 was challenging to get (pre S5, when it was also under a time limit)

It was never truly at a time limit. We knew from the beginning that there would be a way to get it later. The only reason why people did hurry was because it was not known how exactly the acquisition method would change.
Granted, knowing Anet, trying to get the backpack within one league year was a reasonable decision. I doubt anyone expected it to become easier to obtain.

Anyway, even now it still does require winning a lot of matches, with more than one class, not merely afking as some people in this thread claim.

Astralporing.1957:

Anyway, even now it still does require winning a lot of matches, with more than one class, not merely afking as some people in this thread claim.

In every PvP game I know it is easily possible to win games while being afk if you belong to the real bottom of the ladder.

Vinceman.4572:

Astralporing.1957:

Anyway, even now it still does require winning a lot of matches, with more than one class, not merely afking as some people in this thread claim.

In every PvP game I know it is easily possible to win games while being afk if you belong to the real bottom of the ladder.

In my experience, as soon as someone starts afking, his side usually gives up and they lose, so it’s not exactly a good winning strategy.

Astralporing.1957:

Anyway, even now it still does require winning a lot of matches, with more than one class, not merely afking as some people in this thread claim.

You need 27 wins with 3 different professions for a total of 81 wins. If the 4 season limit was still here then yes that would be “a lot of matches” but since you have an eternity in front of you to get those 81 wins then it’s no big deal at all. “A lot” is subjective, you need to add how much time you have available to do it.

The new matchmaking algorithm takes into account your personal rating alone when matching you against opponents. A player with zero PvP experience or skill will get those wins by afking at the bottom of the bronze ladder where the games are really hit or miss. Now that you get the division crossing achievement by not playing… there is really nothing that requires any effort or skill in order to get the Ascension.

Astralporing.1957:

In every PvP game I know it is easily possible to win games while being afk if you belong to the real bottom of the ladder.

In my experience, as soon as someone starts afking, his side usually gives up and they lose, so it’s not exactly a good winning strategy.
[/quote]

See post of maddoctor + I reccommend watching low skill streams (pvp game of your choice), can be very “interesting” or at least funny to watch.