Guild Wars 2

Don’t get me wrong guards are very useful in dungeons but NOT a must in fractals upto level 30.

Did 30 daily last night with 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 ranger and a thief.

Not a problem at all, if you must NEED heavy in your group your obviously hiding behind them :P

Please guards/warriors I do love you in my group thou, not discriminating against anyone, quite the opposite tbh.

I would rather have 5 players of any race in my group that know what they’re doing over a setup that looks good on paper.

You really hit the spot with your last sentence, and you probably don’t even know it.

If you have no clue whether or not your group knows what it is doing, it’s sure as hell better to go with whatever looks good on paper.

Sure, 5 good players can beat any content you through at them. And Fractals aren’t hard per say.

But if you’re going to take any random player, why not pick the one that offers by far the best group support and utility? Guardians are just incredibly valuable to any group it almost doesn’t matter how well they play.

Skill is an element you can’t really control or measure when Pugging. A profession is something you can influence so going with what’s best just make sense if you’re goal is to minimize risk.

This is exactly why I would like to have more combat-based rewards. So that you can tell who is worth of their salt.
Most stuff can be farmed and most Dungeon Masters suck.

Wethospu.6437:

This is exactly why I would like to have combat-based rewards. So that you can tell who is worth of their salt.

This is almost the worst idea I have ever seen. I sincerely hope you are not serious.

I agree with you on picking the best setup, who wouldnt, but its NOT a must, its imposible to tell if anyone has a clue when you pug a group,

I had a pug group other day with 2 guards (clueless guards) we wiped over and over.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wethospu.6437:

This is exactly why I would like to have combat-based rewards. So that you can tell who is worth of their salt.

This is almost the worst idea I have ever seen. I sincerely hope you are not serious.

Really? You would be hugely offended if there was a title for example clearing every dungeon path 5 times?
If we some day get actually hard dungeons it would be very frustrating to need kick half of the people because there’s no way to tell whether they know their class and know to play.
I guess Fractals is kind of like this but I seriously can’t be bothered with the grind/lfg.

Nibiru.1423:

Don’t get me wrong guards are very useful in dungeons but NOT a must in fractals upto level 30.

Did 30 daily last night with 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 ranger and a thief.

Not a problem at all, if you must NEED heavy in your group your obviously hiding behind them :P

Please guards/warriors I do love you in my group thou, not discriminating against anyone, quite the opposite tbh.

I would rather have 5 players of any race in my group that know what they’re doing over a setup that looks good on paper.

this thing sound true on paper….its not so.

I play D/D balanced ele…a thing you rarely see in fotm for many reasons.

Now when i play without a guardian i can just double my attack rate without caring of positioning and defensive skill….

Same scenario without guardian i have to halve my attack rate to be sure not to die, to take time to heal more often, and to recover defensive skills.

As for DPS?
Well guardian and warrior are on a complete other level…..

Mechanic wise?
well you know well how guardian will do easily uncategorized…

Also they are the few to be able to tank and dps at same time along with warriors.

Just did a 4 men lvl 28 with 3 guardians >_> i was concerned about dps….we vaporized everything getting most difficult fractals….xcept for ascalon..(funny how i can just get into the mobs without caring….while without guardians i get oneshot in 2 seconds if i try the same tactic).

We also dis a couple with 1 AFK (in 3).

Wethospu.6437:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wethospu.6437:

This is exactly why I would like to have combat-based rewards. So that you can tell who is worth of their salt.

This is almost the worst idea I have ever seen. I sincerely hope you are not serious.

Really? You would be hugely offended if there was a title for example clearing every dungeon path 5 times?

What?

Rewards such as titles/cosmetics which would show your player skill and knowledge about the game (= combat-based).
Not stuff which you get with farming (= gold-making-ability-based).

Sorry, when you typed combat-based rewards I figured you meant combat-based rewards in dungeons.

My bad.

I was going to use “skill-based” but then people would say that farming/playing TP is a skill (which is true actually).

A bit more transparency of the players your pugging would be nice, so that you could view a players setup/achievements etc. like you can in WoW.

This can tell you a lot about a player. I know that this can also be a bad thing and cause more discrimination thou.

i.e. how many times they have Dc’ed / Rage quit would be nice too.

Nibiru.1423:

A bit more transparency of the players your pugging would be nice, so that you could view a players setup/achievements etc. like you can in WoW.

This can tell you a lot about a player. I know that this can also be a bad thing and cause more discrimination thou.

i.e. how many times they have Dc’ed / Rage quit would be nice too.

I heard about something called “achiev or kick” in wow, wouldn’t want this here.

Winds.3087:

I heard about something called “achiev or kick” in wow, wouldn’t want this here.

That used to happen sometimes, but it’s no different to the “Experienced Only” posts you get now, rather say up front then get kicked part way through because you died.

Nibiru.1423:

Winds.3087:

I heard about something called “achiev or kick” in wow, wouldn’t want this here.

That used to happen sometimes, but it’s no different to the “Experienced Only” posts you get now, rather say up front then get kicked part way through because you died.

Either is bad I suppose. Haven’t played wow though.

My main is guardian but when I see people asking for only guards and wars I don’t bother with them. Must be pretty bad to need those classes to carry.

What I actually notice is that alot of guards dont even know wtf they are doing.. run around like headless chickens spamming staff 1 skill or full signets. I’d much rather another class that knows how to play. When searching for people in high lv fracts, is less about class and more about what gear and utilities they are using.

I do understand why they do it in some cases, warrior takes no real skill to be effective so when pugging they are a safe bet so long as they don’t run full signets or magic find. A Guardian, even when played badly, still gives the illusion of doing something, like empower every 20 seconds. These classes don’t die as easily when played by someone who is awful, so it’s a safe bet.

A ranger for example, takes more player skill to be as effective as a warrior, they need to be constantly switching out pets and weapons and have correct traits… the majority of pugs I see in that area are hurr durr spam shortbow 1, send bear pet in and watch it die. A warrior pug need only run his forehead across the keyboard with a great sword and it would appear acceptable.

In short people see a bad warrior as better than a bad ranger or bad ele spamming fire attunement staff 1.

Oh and then of course you have people who go to the ranger forums and read all the complaints and go… ‘man that must be an awful class, I don’t want them dragging me down in my dungeons.’ etc..

That’s partly what I mean thou, I have never discriminated against any class. Every class if player correctly have their own way of putting 100% into the group and using their skills when needed.

My main is a Mesmer, sometime I get discriminated again for being a Mesmer, but mesmers can do so much for a group in a lot of situations. Portals, Time Warp, Arcane Thievery, Feedback plus many more if played correctly.

In a pug group I’m just happy to get a group of players that can play together regardless of race, and not die to often and more importantly don’t DC or rage quit :P

For fractals, guards are most sought for their ability to absorb/deflect projectiles. I can understand that, but few other proffesions have those skills as well. Feedback, Swirling Winds, Magnetic Wave, Magnetic Aura, Smoke Screen, even war with trait can reflect projectiles. You don’t need guardians at all and if you do you need to step up your game.

yeah other prefession has some skills to deflect projectiles…

They doesn t have virtues.
They have few stability skills with long CD
They cannot equip so many deflecting skills.

haviz.1340:

For fractals, guards are most sought for their ability to absorb/deflect projectiles. I can understand that, but few other proffesions have those skills as well. Feedback, Swirling Winds, Magnetic Wave, Magnetic Aura, Smoke Screen, even war with trait can reflect projectiles. You don’t need guardians at all and if you do you need to step up your game.

While I do agree group can reach good uptime in projectile blocks/reflects without guardian, one guardian alone brings more projectile blocks than several other classes combined, reaching nearly one minute nearly continuous (shield of the avenger has like 1s downtime between pulses) aoe block time. Considering he uses 2 utility slots, 10 trait points and offhand weapon for creating all that, you aren’t spending much resources compared to similar block times gained with other means.

LordByron.8369:

yeah other prefession has some skills to deflect projectiles…

They doesn t have virtues.
They have few stability skills with long CD
They cannot equip so many deflecting skills.

Yes, they don’t have virtue but other skills if you lack defense. Ele can heal as much with healing ripple, necro can use life transfer to heal, etc. There are a lot of possibilites. Think outside the box.

Guardians have only 1 deflection skill, others absorb.

Guardians are important for more than just their reflect/absorbs. In high level fractals, their reflect/absorbs are indeed critical, but more so than just that is the importance of their virtues, their high survivability, frequent and easy access to Aegis, frequent and easy access to Stability, and so forth. All of these things contribute to a class that is almost perfectly suited to perform in the Fractals environment at high levels. I have beaten level 40+ Fractals without a Guardian, but it requires that everyone in the group be able to make up the slack. This is a tough thing to safely assume of everyone when you are pugging. Indeed, when I take my guild, I don’t care what classes they bring. For pugs, I’d much prefer the safety net of even a decent Guardian to make the whole ordeal less stressful. That’s why I look for a Guardian.

That said, if a player whispers me, tells me their class, and then proceeds to prove to me that they have the brainpower exceeding that of a small rodent (basically by being cool, etc) then I’ll usually ask the team if it’s okay, and then invite them anyway.

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

I’ll be honest; I’m a dungeon master and I don’t display the title because I think my GW1 title is more prestigious. I also disagree with the generalization that most Dungeon Masters suck. Being a DM doesn’t have any bearing at all on one’s skills in FotM, as FotM isn’t required for it, so judging a FotM player who is showing DM by their skill in FotM is rather nonsensical. (That was quite a tongue twisting sentence!)

Excursion.9752:

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

Whenever I have those dung masters in my pug they somehow ends with graveyard zerging lupi and when I ask them if they really did it, they usually answer with something like “check my title”.

And what exactly is hard in path1? Harder graveyard zerging due to lack of the waypoint after tar boss?

Excursion.9752:

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

“Suck” might be bit of a too extreme word. That being said getting dungeon master is easy enough so having it doesn’t require you to be what I would consider good at this game. I think many players agree beating Dwayna being the hardest thing in reaching dungeon master and there is plenty of room for carrying weak links in that fight while still succeeding. Also if Dwayna or pretty much anything seems unbeatable you can always pay for your DM, all the dungeons can be 4 manned excluding some specific events that require 5 but basically don’t have any challenge at all.

Nibiru.1423:

I would rather have 5 players of any race in my group that know what they’re doing over a setup that looks good on paper.

I’ve seen terrible guards and I’ve seen great guards. The same goes for every class.

The quoted line is all that really matter.

I’ve never really understood it period. None of the “LF1M Heavy armor preferred” stuff.

Obviously guardians and warriors are good, but honestly, it just doesn’t matter.

Certainly doesn’t for fractals, where I’ve just pugged with whoever the first people were to join the group every time and never had any issues related to group composition. Sure plenty of people have goofed up but it’ll just be them, not the fact that they were x profession.

Goofing around in LA for even an extra 5 minutes to get a particular prof for fractals is a waste imo.

Excursion.9752:

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

You only had to do each one once.
It doesn’t say you did it without anybody getting killed.
It doesn’t say you didn’t use an exploit.
It doesn’t say you weren’t carried through (any or all).
It doesn’t say you didn’t try several times for each one.
It doesn’t say you learn from your mistakes.
It doesn’t say you remember any of the content.

A title that says ‘I did stuff’ doesn’t have much weight when it doesn’t say how long or how many times or how much help you had to do it.

Fildydarie.1496:

Excursion.9752:

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

You only had to do each one once.
It doesn’t say you did it without anybody getting killed.
It doesn’t say you didn’t use an exploit.
It doesn’t say you weren’t carried through (any or all).
It doesn’t say you didn’t try several times for each one.
It doesn’t say you learn from your mistakes.
It doesn’t say you remember any of the content.

A title that says ‘I did stuff’ doesn’t have much weight when it doesn’t say how long or how many times or how much help you had to do it.

Optimist eh? What it does say is that you have put in the time to have more than a basic understanding on how dungeons/fractal groups should work.

Maybe its me but I when I see someone with a legendary, world completion, or a rare title I assume they would know how to play the game. I’ve never had the experiences some of you all had in groups with people that had any of those. Maybe its someone else in your group?

As you go into higher level in fractals mitigation is way more crucial than any heal or regeneration. And no one does team mitigation better than a guardian. Simple as that.

Skill is one thing, but there is no getting away with specific profession mechanics when it comes to optimizing for specific bottle-necking encounter.

Are people looking at a different site from me? All the time on these forums I see people claiming stuff like "all posts say “must have experience”" or “all posts say, must be guardian”

I very, very rarely see those posts.

If you see someone doing “LF1M Must be Guardian”, ask them which Guatdian build they need since they’re so picky. If they don’t even know what build of the Guardian they need, then lol and be on your way.

Kain Francois.4328:

If you see someone doing “LF1M Must be Guardian”, ask them which Guatdian build they need since they’re so picky. If they don’t even know what build of the Guardian they need, then lol and be on your way.

How about I tell you, I value their wall of reflection, Shield of the Avenger, protection and aegis boons? Also the ability to position control multiple mobs with Sanctuary, Shield of Absorption and Binding Blade? People might not know the absolute details about each and every traits, but when people talk about a guardian, they usually know what they are looking for.

And frankly, no one is really expecting a glass cannon dps guardian honestly

Jzl.8715:

Kain Francois.4328:

If you see someone doing “LF1M Must be Guardian”, ask them which Guatdian build they need since they’re so picky. If they don’t even know what build of the Guardian they need, then lol and be on your way.

How about I tell you, I value their wall of reflection, Shield of the Avenger, protection and aegis boons? Also the ability to position control multiple mobs with Sanctuary, Shield of Absorption and Binding Blade? People might not know the absolute details about each and every traits, but when people talk about a guardian, they usually know what they are looking for.

That’s no problem and understandable. Except half the guards I meet don’t even know those skills exist, let alone set up for Aegis spreading. And half of the LF1Mers don’t know what to ask for either.

Excursion.9752:

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

Laugh all you want. That’s my personal experience. I have so often literally carried teams on Dwayna or Lupicus (and then at the end of dungeon “Yay I got DM”). I have so often seen Dungeon Masters standing in safe-spots (while not an issue alone it definitely doesn’t make them seem better). I have so often seen Dungeon Masters leaving party members behind when skipping (standing few meters away watching one enemy slowly chipping downed health away). I have even seen few DM’s tell me how they know this and this fight better while clearly having no idea.

Running everything once just doesn’t give you enough experience.

I know some good DM’s but they are often on my friendlist.

Wethospu.6437:

Excursion.9752:

Wethospu.6437:

most Dungeon Masters suck.

I laughed literally out loud when I read that. I really can’t believe that statement seeing how they have had to at least experience all the dungeon content. It’s hard to believe they were carried through all of it. Path1 and 4 Arah you really have to hold your own weight in and if people are making it through that content I would go out on a limb and say they don’t suck that bad.

If you have a 3 to 4 baddies in a group its really hard for the others to carry the load. There is not a class in this game that can take 100% of the damage all the time.

Laugh all you want. That’s my personal experience. I have so often literally carried teams on Dwayna or Lupicus (and then at the end of dungeon “Yay I got DM”). I have so often seen Dungeon Masters standing in safe-spots (while not an issue alone it definitely doesn’t make them seem better). I have so often seen Dungeon Masters leaving party members behind when skipping (standing few meters away watching one enemy slowly chipping downed health away). I have even seen few DM’s tell me how they know this and this fight better while clearly having no idea.

Running everything once just doesn’t give you enough experience.

I know some good DM’s but they are often on my friendlist.

Everything is situational and some people do come unprepared for dungeons. In the case where people are skipping and someone goes down its very rare for people to go help the individual until after the monsters go back to their starting area. If I go down I don’t expect someone to save my rear when its my fault i fell in the first place…

In cases when you know your team is skipping make sure people have the spy kits they come in handy when resing in crazy situations. You can ask this at the start if its a concern.

I wish I could find someone like you that carries so effectively. I am not really sure how you did that with Dwayna when it really takes a team effort between spark running, tear throwing, and dpsing. But if you say so.

I usually run 3 sparks, DPS (Warrior damage) and occasionally throw some tears when it becomes too hard for the tear-thrower. If needed I explain a solid tactic or send consumables to everyone.
Last 5 groups I have joined at Dwayna, regardless of team-composition we have got job done in 15 minutes.

And what you described is exactly the problem with skipping. People rush in first as fast as possible so people falling behind (usually most unexperienced) get all aggro, etc. And then they think that they are good. Consider yourself good when your group manages to skip without any casualties.
Primary objective should be clear dungeon as efficiently as possible. Support/Guide your teammates if that’s needed to get job done.

Excursion.9752:

Maybe its me but I when I see someone with a legendary, world completion, or a rare title I assume they would know how to play the game. I’ve never had the experiences some of you all had in groups with people that had any of those. Maybe its someone else in your group?

I’ve had a few bad experiences, and no, I’m not going to say that anyone with a dungeon title or legendary showing is necessarily or even likely to be bad. However acuqisition of these items does not make you a good player, and it certainly doesn’t make you a player I want to group with; you establish that through your observable interactions with players.

This is like saying you can trust somebody with your 8-year-old daughter because he is wearing a nice shirt. The presentation might lend to giving the benefit of the doubt, but I’m not going to give you free run to do whatever you want; you are still accountable for your conduct and I will keep my eye on you because there is nothing about the achievement that vouches for past conduct.

Fildydarie.1496:

Excursion.9752:

Maybe its me but I when I see someone with a legendary, world completion, or a rare title I assume they would know how to play the game. I’ve never had the experiences some of you all had in groups with people that had any of those. Maybe its someone else in your group?

I’ve had a few bad experiences, and no, I’m not going to say that anyone with a dungeon title or legendary showing is necessarily or even likely to be bad. However acuqisition of these items does not make you a good player, and it certainly doesn’t make you a player I want to group with; you establish that through your observable interactions with players.

This is like saying you can trust somebody with your 8-year-old daughter because he is wearing a nice shirt. The presentation might lend to giving the benefit of the doubt, but I’m not going to give you free run to do whatever you want; you are still accountable for your conduct and I will keep my eye on you because there is nothing about the achievement that vouches for past conduct.

Agreed.

Also:
Legendaries dont mean squat. Had a ranger in fotm with the lover the other day, can you guess what he did? Spammed shortbow 1 the entire run and did nothing else.. he also had the nerve to put a sigil of luck on it…

Oh and just remembered one real gem: A dungeon Master ele with full signets and a commander title that didn’t know how to use party chat. He would talk only in map chat and continuously died. We kicked him and he raged for the longest time at me in whispers.. I have to say it was quite funny. I assume it was a bought account at that point.

I’ll take a subpar Guardian who at least knows when to use Shield of the Avenger for my pug groups in fractals than any other profession, regardless of that other prof’s skill. It might be unfair, but put the blame for that on Anet for giving one prof such a great utility without complimentary skills for other profs.

A Mesmer has reflects galore, which is great, but not as many attacks can be reflected as blocked. An Elementalist has Swirling Winds, which is a wonderful projectile block skill, but doesn’t have nearly the up-time as Shield of the Avenger. Etc etc.

I would take a skilled thief than a guardian who doesn’t know what they are doing. Problem is I won’t know

However, I also will do LF1 Guardian mainly because I already have 2 thieves, 1 ranger, on a team.

At this point i would take a group of people with 2 brain cells to do my 26 daily, just did one and wiped on volcano. Next time round one player that I won’t say any names, dies again and again.

Finally we get to the last transition (25%) he dies again and decides he’s had enough, next thing i know, reset screen appears in the middle of my screen and we all get killed because we can’t see what’s going on.

My pug black list is getting bigger by the day, morons. I take it back give me a guard :P