this is a horrible assumption that ive run into a few times
players that skip dungeon parts are not ‘skill-less’, for me atleast, its because they’ve already done the content before and the reward for re-running it isnt worth the effort
(to be clear; im fine with either skipping or clearing; i prefer skipping due to it being a higher effort:reward ratio, but if someone wants to complete the content; i dont complain)
just felt like i should try to clear this up as its been annoying me
I choose to run for tokens. When helping others I don’t mind clearing. As long as the group agrees then it really isn’t an issue.
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
There are no incentives in place to give players a reason to actually clear all the trash packs. Regardless if it takes you 5 minutes, 45 minutes, or 2 hours the end rewards is always 60 badges so people naturally seek out the fastest and easiest way to get it.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
(edited by ComeAndSee.1356)
If enemies may wipe you then it is about skill.
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
There are no incentives in place to give players a reason to actually clear all the trash packs. Regardless if it takes you 5 minutes, 45 minutes, or 2 hours the end rewards is always 60 badges so people naturally seek out the fastest and easiest way to get it.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
Incentive? The incentive is what lies behind those mobs (yeah those 60 tokens and 26 silvers), they shouldn’t be avoided in the first place!
My incentive is to finish the run successfully and put all my skills into action. I like to see how pugging different classes brings different runs as everyone offers a different thing… now its always the same… everyone with the same dps builds… I made a drinking game, every time someone uses a support skill or a CC I drink… been sober ever since.
Skipping is a gain of time. That’s the only thing right about it.
Aside from that there are two minor reasons : skipping because after some time you just want to get it over with. And skipping because you can’t kill the enemies, which gives you even more reason to skip because you might end up dead.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
Am I the only one to find this a bit contradictory ?
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
There are no incentives in place to give players a reason to actually clear all the trash packs. Regardless if it takes you 5 minutes, 45 minutes, or 2 hours the end rewards is always 60 badges so people naturally seek out the fastest and easiest way to get it.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
Incentive? The incentive is what lies behind those mobs (yeah those 60 tokens and 26 silvers), they shouldn’t be avoided in the first place!
My incentive is to finish the run successfully and put all my skills into action. I like to see how pugging different classes brings different runs as everyone offers a different thing… now its always the same… everyone with the same dps builds… I made a drinking game, every time someone uses a support skill or a CC I drink… been sober ever since.
The problem is that 60 tokens shouldn’t be the incentive; It should be a piece of gear. For whatever reason ArenaNet has gone the route of grind for everything and when forced to grind you find as many ways as possible to lessen the grind. You know what was good about dungeons in other games? You got GOOD loot at the end, might not have been the loot you wanted but there was a payoff for someone in the group. Whats the best loot in any GW2 dungeon? Tokens and silver.
I’d actually do more dungeons IF there was a decent chance at getting a usable piece of gear per run. It might require some dungeons get rebalanced to be harder/take a bit longer but at least there will be a decent incentive to run them. Just look at fractal dailies past 10. There is a decent incentive of getting a ring and if you don’t you get a token towards buying one.
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
There are no incentives in place to give players a reason to actually clear all the trash packs. Regardless if it takes you 5 minutes, 45 minutes, or 2 hours the end rewards is always 60 badges so people naturally seek out the fastest and easiest way to get it.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
Incentive? The incentive is what lies behind those mobs (yeah those 60 tokens and 26 silvers), they shouldn’t be avoided in the first place!
My incentive is to finish the run successfully and put all my skills into action. I like to see how pugging different classes brings different runs as everyone offers a different thing… now its always the same… everyone with the same dps builds… I made a drinking game, every time someone uses a support skill or a CC I drink… been sober ever since.
Don’t run with me then. I run a pure support ele and guardian, so I would have you passed out after just one path of AC.
On the issue of skipping, I don’t think there is any benefit to not skipping a lot of the stuff in dungeons. Certain trash mobs only pose additional pointless risk to a party, no matter how skilled they are (everyone slips up once in awhile and some times the game just decides to screw you). I personally skip most trash mobs unless I can’t progress, the danger wiping if you get swarmed on the next bit is present, or if the npc has a chance to bug out because of them (AC path 2). Skipping bosses now is pointless to me as you usually get rewarded for fighting them to some degree. In the end a skilled party is a skilled party whether they skip everything or not, while a bad party can go through and fight everything and have nothing to show for it.
fixing mobs following distance to at least 2x distance of next pull would be nice. That way if you want to skill you will have at least 2 pulls + the upcoming third one on you. This will make skipping requiring at least both hands and make dungeons a little bit more dangerous. Right now its a joke that you can enter the very deep of the most dangerous place on Tyria and just run through mobs for 10 seconds and be safe…
There are no incentives in place to give players a reason to actually clear all the trash packs. Regardless if it takes you 5 minutes, 45 minutes, or 2 hours the end rewards is always 60 badges so people naturally seek out the fastest and easiest way to get it.
Some of the dungeons like Arah have way too much trash and most of them can easily wipe your group.
It’s nothing about skill.
Incentive? The incentive is what lies behind those mobs (yeah those 60 tokens and 26 silvers), they shouldn’t be avoided in the first place!
My incentive is to finish the run successfully and put all my skills into action. I like to see how pugging different classes brings different runs as everyone offers a different thing… now its always the same… everyone with the same dps builds… I made a drinking game, every time someone uses a support skill or a CC I drink… been sober ever since.
The problem is that 60 tokens shouldn’t be the incentive; It should be a piece of gear. For whatever reason ArenaNet has gone the route of grind for everything and when forced to grind you find as many ways as possible to lessen the grind. You know what was good about dungeons in other games? You got GOOD loot at the end, might not have been the loot you wanted but there was a payoff for someone in the group. Whats the best loot in any GW2 dungeon? Tokens and silver.
I’d actually do more dungeons IF there was a decent chance at getting a usable piece of gear per run. It might require some dungeons get rebalanced to be harder/take a bit longer but at least there will be a decent incentive to run them. Just look at fractal dailies past 10. There is a decent incentive of getting a ring and if you don’t you get a token towards buying one.
AS for this, I think 60 tokens is actually a fair reward for one path per dungeon per character per day. I personally will take a given piece of gear every few days over the chance of one every time. The real draw back is the inequality of dungeons making some that give sets you may want unused.
(edited by Dyroth.5063)
In fact, mapping and planning skipping routes do take both effort and skill in the end.
In every single game, players skip as much as they can to get the content done quicker. The only way to force people to not do it is to make the end boss immune to damage unless all trash has been slain.
In every single game, players skip as much as they can to get the content done quicker. The only way to force people to not do it is to make the end boss immune to damage unless all trash has been slain.
What about encounters like in CoF path 2 where you take Mag across the lava field? I highly doubt most of the mobs were meant to be fought and that room cleared. Or what about things like in AC where you can avoid spawning certain mobs? I do not think that making it mandatory that everything is killed every time is good game development. Instead they should refine fights so that players have to choose if it is a good idea to skip this encounter or not, with both skipping and completion being factored in. By this I mean give a worth while award for completing a portion of the dungeon but have different portions have a high difficulty level that forces players to stop and think about if the fight is worth the end result.
I found the people who complain the most about skipping are the ones that really struggle at it. Then they declare it takes no skill.
In every single game, players skip as much as they can to get the content done quicker. The only way to force people to not do it is to make the end boss immune to damage unless all trash has been slain.
In other games players skip by finding paths were you wont pull aggro…
in this game people skip mobs while gently patting the mobs head on their way. Just like that… running through them… its a joke.
Mobs need more CC and pulling skills. At least force players skipping to actually play the skipping/escaping by using stability and speed buffs, being prepared for a dangerous run.
Dungeons need more traps
People need to not be spoiled by how easily they got those 60 tokens now and realize that the initial idea was it to be a challenge.
this is a horrible assumption that ive run into a few times
players that skip dungeon parts are not ‘skill-less’, for me atleast, its because they’ve already done the content before and the reward for re-running it isnt worth the effort
(to be clear; im fine with either skipping or clearing; i prefer skipping due to it being a higher effort:reward ratio, but if someone wants to complete the content; i dont complain)
just felt like i should try to clear this up as its been annoying me
Whoever says skipping means no skill is only admitting that they have no skill or experience themselves.
I found the people who complain the most about skipping are the ones that really struggle at it. Then they declare it takes no skill.
Yeah, it’s basically classic projection. They project their own failures on others.
I found the people who complain the most about skipping are the ones that really struggle at it. Then they declare it takes no skill.
Yeah, it’s basically classic projection. They project their own failures on others.
I don’t agree with that observation. I believe it’s rather flat.
Does clearing a dungeon require skill? I believe efficiently clearing a dungeon requires skill.
Take TA for example. A dungeon I ran a lot october/november Piken Square with PUG’s. Évery experienced group (Every group, where members said they knew the dungeon) had a strategy for the storming hounds in the entrance/ cleared the passage without getting poisoned/dealt with the husks without any problem/threw itself on the 6 vines in the next chamber and killed the first boss within 10 minutes. Without full exotics, or even rares. Without wiping. Without going down. A TA run took about 20-30 minutes.
I felt like I had mastery over the game. When I had a thief in the party, I knew he could use Scorpion Wire to pull those Knights away from those Cultists/Sorcerers, even tough I played as a Guardian. I knew when to use what weaponset. When to change traits. Etc.
When you skip in TA. It’s a different kind of skill to me. It feels more like a jumping puzzle. Hit your anti-knockdown now. Dodge here. Swiftness now.
I notice that current PUG’s in TA that want to skip lack knowledge when it comes to the actual fight. People go down. People die. They spend as much time rerunning as they would have just clearing the room.
I met people in Arah that didn’t know what other profession’s are capable of. What other profession’s utility skills are. How they can work together with their own. But they are agile enough to run through and skip in Arah. Sure as hell they can’t clear it.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Skipping has always been a part of the metagame. In GW1, 55 HP Monk, Perma-sin & Ursan where véry whidespread. And dungeon runs being sold where the norm)
In the end, everyone deserves loot. No matter how you got it.
The way I see it, skippers are not able to react to a situation they don’t know. They didn’t MASTER the game. That’s fine. They don’t have to.
Some people want to be respected because they farmed a lot, and fast.
Others want to be respected, because they can do things that seem impossible.
Question is: who do you want to be?
Cheers!
Whoever says skipping means no skill is only admitting that they have no skill or experience themselves.
People use the word skill where they really shouldn’t. You’re never not using a skill as a human being, it’s how we interact with the world. Writing a forum post involves skill, technically speaking. I think they’re mostly just using the word and hoping to get at something tangential, like respect, or challenge, or gameplay.
There’s no way anything is skill-less, that just doesn’t happen.
What Skipping really lacks is a solid skill-curve, and that’s only really because there just isn’t much gameplay to speak of. You don’t really create a skipping build, you don’t progress your character in the art of skipping, there isn’t enough variety or depth in the challenges mobs present to you that would cause you to explore. It’s a stagnant experience, it starts in one place and just kind of stays there the entire time, so of course your skillset wouldn’t be growing or changing as a result. As the playerbase expands it’s collective knowledge on the subject, we learn new ’where’s, but it’s always the same ‘how’.
And this is kind of unfortunate.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
there are some games that have found a good solution for skipping,
for example in DDO (game that i think implement lots of positive MMO features that can be learned by Anet developers)
when you are in the dungeon, you have counters, kill counter, boss counter and chest counter etc..
for each threshold of the counter, the group get bonus.
got 50% of the kills? get 5% xp and reward bonus, got 75% of the kills? get 10% xp and reward bonus, got 100% of the kills? get 15% xp and reward bonus
the same with bosses , chests (in DDO there are hidden chests in dungeons) and traps (in ddo rogues can disable the traps that in the dungeon) etc
so people who want to run speed runs, can, but people who like to complete whole dungeons with max kills and max bosses are rewarded also.
you can easily reach 100% xp and reward bonus if you kill all enemies, all bosses, found all traps and got all chests…
it is easily implemented, and the reward can be in dungeon tokens also, so people will do the whole content because it will be more rewarding.
this is a horrible assumption that ive run into a few times
players that skip dungeon parts are not ‘skill-less’, for me atleast, its because they’ve already done the content before and the reward for re-running it isnt worth the effort
(to be clear; im fine with either skipping or clearing; i prefer skipping due to it being a higher effort:reward ratio, but if someone wants to complete the content; i dont complain)
just felt like i should try to clear this up as its been annoying meWhoever says skipping means no skill is only admitting that they have no skill or experience themselves.
i disagree with that as well; skipping or not skipping (on its own) is not an indicator of skill
The way I see it, skippers are not able to react to a situation they don’t know. They didn’t MASTER the game. That’s fine. They don’t have to.
Some people want to be respected because they farmed a lot, and fast.
Others want to be respected, because they can do things that seem impossible.
i disagree with that as well; i can react to a situation as well as players who dont frequently skip (skipping itself often requires a basic knowledge of the mobs… take TA for example; a knight ran up to you; suddenly leaped knocked you down and crippled you; you pop a stunbreaker+cleanse then in the future you’ve learned to dodge whenever you see a knight lunge at you)
i think this is getting messy; and its better to clarify people into four (or more) groups:
- those that skip; but cant deal with killing the mobs
- those that skip; but can deal with the mobs (normally because theyve killed the mobs before and the effort:reward ratio doesnt justify them re-running content they find boring – take CoEs champion ice wolf; thats a horribly boring fight)
- those that dont skip because they cant evade attacks and suck at skipping
- those that dont skip because they like the content (whether its because they like killing stuff or the chance at loot)
(then theres a number of middle areas… for example; i much prefer skipping stuff… but i do enjoy fighting kholer -unless im with a group who cant dodge- and thus prefer to fight him – if troll doesnt spawn… i love watching to two fight each other)
I see people who skip the wolves in TA at the beginning. I also see groups who can kill the wolves in 30 seconds or less. I understand not all classes DPS the same (and the groups I’m talking about that do it quickly aren’t warrior/mesmer groups) but I also know the players that usually skip are almost always worse than players who can take on the encounter quickly and easily.
If you are pugging and it’s not some kind of speed clear, you have no idea what your party is capable. One of the things I hate most about dungeons is being in a group of people who skip and then sit around like morons while one person struggles to make it and the end result is the entire party wastes a lot of time they could have easily saved by not skipping. I’m all for not killing gravelings during multiple parts of AC, but the ones at the traps and the ones right near the central rooms where Kholer spawns, they are usually much easier to kill than skip, especially given how AC often results in mixed levels and mixed experience differences in players. You never know when you’re going to have one or two people who don’t have a speed boost, blocks, stability, stun breakers or timely dodges. Some classes/builds are easier to skip on than others (thieves, mesmers, guardians), just because you have one doesn’t mean it’s fair to expect others to do the same.
A good group can easily and safely dispatch most mobs in a dungeon fairly quickly. When it comes to risk vs reward, I usually find it best to avoid the risk of saving a few seconds by simply killing the mobs. If your party is in any way good, they should be able to easily dispatch most trash. If people would stop skipping trash, they’d become much better players. The importance of CC, gathering mobs together (guardian greatsword 5 as an example) and focusing targets, all of these things make most mobs that are skipped fairly trivial and they can be done quickly when your party is worth it’s weight. I’ve seen too many players that rely on skipping and when faced with a situation where they have to fight, they go full kitten and run around like headless chooks.
this is a horrible assumption that ive run into a few times
players that skip dungeon parts are not ‘skill-less’, for me atleast, its because they’ve already done the content before and the reward for re-running it isnt worth the effort
(to be clear; im fine with either skipping or clearing; i prefer skipping due to it being a higher effort:reward ratio, but if someone wants to complete the content; i dont complain)
just felt like i should try to clear this up as its been annoying meWhoever says skipping means no skill is only admitting that they have no skill or experience themselves.
i disagree with that as well; skipping or not skipping (on its own) is not an indicator of skill
You misunderstand.
I said whoever says skipping means no skill has just admitted they have no skill.
Because anyone uninformed enough to come to such a simplistic and unsubstantiated conclusion means they know very little if at all of fundamentals of the game which implies they have very little to no skill/knowledge.
I never said skipping or not skipping(on its own) is any indicator.
Skipping mobs might not equal skil but it certainly does equal time saved and that really is the most important thing.
People who skip Kholer because he’s “too annoying” will always get a imaginary stamp of “Terrible Player” in my book, its 4 minutes max if everyone knows what they’re doing.
(edited by LieutenantGoogle.7326)
If enemies may wipe you then it is about skill.
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