Guild Wars 2

Errr, in most games the average “hardcore” player pays about 10 times as much as the average “casual” player.

But you shouldn’t split all people up in just 2 categories. The big majority of players doesn’t fit into either of these.

This is perhaps the most accurate description of the lifecycle of MMO RPGs.

I can only hope that Anet is banking on the fact that there are enough hardcore players out there that have been shunted out of their original MMOs, that they’ll stick with this one and survive the loss of casual players.

But seriously. Great post.

Hardcore players bring loud vocals and enthusiasm but do not bring in very many new/casual players to an established game. They do bring notice to smaller underground games, but without a solid game being there in the first place casual players wont come in droves. Following the demands of hardcore players and their attitude of “my” game rather than “our” game has killed a multitude of MMO’s. Hardcore players have their place but the game will die as fast as your account of hardcore players if only they exist in it.

Casual players always win out in the end. They never will admit they want the game to be easy for them they say they want it to be “fun” and by fun they mean they don’t want it to be too challenging. The thing that sucks though is that a game without a challenge is no fun for anyone. If you make it so the bottom 50% can do something then you ruin it for everyone because it’s no longer a challenge for anyone. This entire game is face roll easy except arguably the dungeons and competitive PVP. What more can casual players possibly want? By the way I would be considered a casual player by most standards but I dabble in the hard core and love a challenge. When they make a game that’s really hard it motivates me that much more to play it. The idea of being able to do something few can is really intoxicating but then again I love competition.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Errr, in most games the average “hardcore” player pays about 10 times as much as the average “casual” player..

No, actually. It’s the other way round.
The average “hardcore” player plays 10 times as much as the average “casual” player, while the average casual player pays 10 times as much.

This means that hardcore players are a LOSS for a company.
-They cause more traffic
-They chew through content faster, increasing development time
-They care more for non-issues, like minor skill imbalances (which are in the game by design, refer to the extra credits episode), requiring additional funds for dealing with this

Casual gamers give more money and cost less. Remember, the entire freemium concept arose of casual games. Casual gamers usually have a job, unlike hardcore gamers (who tend to be students or still in school), which means casuals are more likely to buy conveniences.

The hardcores usually do not bother with them because they give no advantages ingame.

. They never will admit they want the game to be easy

I see more hardcore players whining about difficulty than “casuals”, though.
Less conspiracy theory there.
Only a fool assumes that casual means “wants it easy”.

All casual means is “does not play all day”.

I can only hope that Anet is banking on the fact that there are enough hardcore players out there that have been shunted out of their original MMOs, that they’ll stick with this one and survive the loss of casual players.

You are going to be so disappointed when you read interviews arenanet made. This game is for casuals. Hardcore players are strictly not catered to all that much.

Casuals that like challenge, that is. The problem is mostly complaints from hardcore players that expect a)to bes tronger than other players due to having more time (“lack of rewards”) and b)expect to do dungeons like they did in WoW (“Dungeon is too hard”).

Sadly this is true. They will probably nerf dungeons for the sake of casuals. I would respect them if they didn’t.

Zefiris.8297:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Errr, in most games the average “hardcore” player pays about 10 times as much as the average “casual” player..

No, actually. It’s the other way round.
The average “hardcore” player plays 10 times as much as the average “casual” player, while the average casual player pays 10 times as much.

This means that hardcore players are a LOSS for a company.
-They cause more traffic
-They chew through content faster, increasing development time
-They care more for non-issues, like minor skill imbalances (which are in the game by design, refer to the extra credits episode), requiring additional funds for dealing with this

Casual gamers give more money and cost less. Remember, the entire freemium concept arose of casual games. Casual gamers usually have a job, unlike hardcore gamers (who tend to be students or still in school), which means casuals are more likely to buy conveniences.

The hardcores usually do not bother with them because they give no advantages ingame.

This is all actually very true. Even though I like my games hard it annoys me to no end when other players power level straight through a game put in about 10-20 times the hours to do everything in a month after release burning themselves out and then complain they have nothing to do or that a game is boring. It’s like watching a guy scarf down a double cheeseburger in less than 5 sec and then complain he’s still hungry.

Ideally a game would be designed to target neither the bottom 50% or the guys described above. I do think there needs to be a reward and challenges available to the players who aren’t putting in a ton of time but who are just good tactical players that want to be able to play challenging content without facerolling and be rewarded for it.

You can actually see they have some of this built in by allowing you to take on monsters higher level than you and being rewarded for it. My favorite thing to do is to go to a zone way too high for me and take on mobs 5-7 levels higher than me. I pretty much get green loot off of most of them which is awesome. It’s fun for me and completely just to challenge myself. Not mandatory in any way but they have a reward system built in for it. Pretty cool

Do you know why casual players win in the end?
Not because of the reasons you’ve mentioned, but because hardcore players are never satisfied.

There isn’t ever enough “challenge” and “elite” stuff.
Game is always “too short” and “doesn’t offer enough”, and itemisation “isn’t hardcore enough”, ever. This approach makes them (you?) feel like they’re loosing.

remember that this is not a subscription game.
the majority of the game is made for casuals or hardcore folks that only have casual time.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

This is all actually very true. Even though I like my games hard it annoys me to no end when other players power level straight through a game put in about 10-20 times the hours to do everything in a month after release burning themselves out and then complain they have nothing to do or that a game is boring. It’s like watching a guy scarf down a double cheeseburger in less than 5 sec and then complain he’s still hungry.

I disagree with this. The people who reach 80 first are the ones who notice the problems first. If everyone reached 80, 1.5 months into the game than everyone would be complaining at once.

This game is not dungeon focused, what so ever, there is no real reward for doing them and that is part of the game design. The game is focused around WvWvW..So if you like PvE than you probably shouldn’t be playing this game because the only way for you to do PvE after 80 is to make a new character and replay the same content you did on your 80.

Dudebag.5780:

heck, MMO company should release two different version of the game when they release it.
one for casual
one for hardcore

GW2 actually has this structure. For hardcore players, there are dungeons. For casual players, there’s “the rest of the kitten game.”

I have no beef with casual players, I’ve been one in many games. What upsets me though is that they seem to feel that if any content is denied them due to its difficulty, there’s a problem.

If ~I~ can’t beat an encounter, ~I~ need to improve.

Vanisher.9216:

Sadly this is true. They will probably nerf dungeons for the sake of casuals. I would respect them if they didn’t.

yep, a game should never be changed or balanced by reducing any number, because we all know this is a major nerf for the sake of casuals.

Pretty certain they wont nerf dungeons unless these complaints remain a few months down the road by the target audience of the dungeons.
that is just the feeling i get from AN.
From my own experience dungeons, at least AC, are very carefully balanced and they fully understand the pain people are suffering who dont get it.
This whole game is about being different even if just a little. they knew they were going to get backlash.

we’ll see. be great if everyone was thrilled with the dungeon ride.

The simple fact is, the only way to keep every 1 happy is to keep the difficulty the way it is or even make it harder for the elite players, add a title and an achiev, and give them more tokens or something like that so that they can have there show case items, titles ect that they want. but for us casual gamers that dont care about showing off our stuff in a game standing around in the city like we r somethin, just want to experience the content imo even AC story mode seems alright as far a difficulty goes but explorable mode isnt, plain and simple argue all u want most people think explorable mode is to hard. as do I. any way we payed 4 the game also and we can argue it out but, they can obviously change the difficulty of dungeons cause of the difference between story and explorable mode, so making explorable mode easier shouldnt b a prob for casual gamers and keeping it difficult for the elite shouldnt b a prob. to the elite and the casual…. People we r going to have to make a comprimise to both b happy. not fight over what is the best for an mmo. the deffinition for good music is…… good music is accordance to ones ear. We have different ears here people that dosnt make 1 right and the other wrong. Lets make this happen for the better of both. Peace u all. =)

Its not our call. AN made the dungeons with something in mind.
The balance i found in AC tells me pretty certainly there was a lot of thought put into how hard these things are.

What i can say as a hardcore gamer with casual time is that i can walk up to AC get invited into a group and do the story in hour or so with a bunch of people i have never met or even have done the dungeon.

I can go into EM and have an experienced guide and get the same effect.

I can do this in two ways. way point zerg. or try to survive.

When most of the PUG is experienced it is pretty easy to do the latter.
And that to me is awesome.

I love it that i can learn and get remarkably better at this game. Not only in dungeons but im better now in the overland stuff too. the dungeon have been a great learning tool.

They made yellows for causals and those of low skill. They allow you to get within about 10% of max power with ease. They made dungeons for those willing to put in the time and effort for unique skinned oranges. And just so causals would not feel weaker they put in crafting and orange karma gear so even the most unskilled and time constricted player can eventually be all orange.

Way too much speculation and generalization here… does anyone have any actual facts to back up all these claims?

90% of subscribers are average players. And the average player spends around 20 hours a week playing MMOs… 3 hours a day seems far from casual to me.

Guild Wars 2 has been developed for the average gamer. Not for the causual, or for the hardcore.

There’s no problem here. Game difficulty is fine. Stop sensationalizing everything.

Dungeons are the only thing that requires skill to not get infuriated at in this game.

I never much cared for Pvp in many other games…but in this one I don’t mind it much at all. I’d daresay it’s the first PvP RPG game I’ve played where I found it enjoyable.

It’s also the first Game where I ragequit a dungeon-and not on account of the group.

It’s just that Arenanet knows what they’re doing with PvP and are clueless when it comes to making accessible dungeons.

Zefiris.8297:

. They never will admit they want the game to be easy

I see more hardcore players whining about difficulty than “casuals”, though.

this is so true.

in every mmo, i’ve always said dungeons are not “hardcore”. they’re just mario brothers on steroids. as soon as you “learn the fight”, you can do it in your sleep. as a casual gamer, i’ve preferred challenges. i’ve always said things need to be more random.

the bosses need to do more random things. not just work on timers. they need to have more random skills, defences, and attacking abilities. so you never know what you’re going to get. only then could you start to call “hardcore” and “skill” as being inter-related.

at the moment, it’s just memory. most “hardcore” gamers aren’t “good”. pop them into pvp and it levels out rather dramatically (except in wow where gear is king – here, it’s a wonderful new story). but for dungeons, it’s been solely memory in pretty much every mmo. for me, remembering set moves is about as exciting as pro chess. big yawns.

i like gw2’s concept of story mode and explorable dungeons. i think that’s an awesome start. needs to really throw in a lot more random beasties, though. the more random, the more you have to think. the more you have to think, the more your choices reveal how “hardcore” you are. and casuals never complain too much about things being hard. only about “in order to do this dungeon, you must run the other dungeon 400 times to get the gear to do this dungeon” and “learn the fight by watching it on youtube 400 times.”

meh. hardly any skill in that.

I don’t always make generalizations, but when I do, I’m always wrong.

nysta – I like the idea of more randomness – the rogue-alike way to make things hard. You can beat it easy one time, and the next time you try fail at the first door, because the random threw you a curve ball. It would be about skill, improvisation and teamwork – but want to bet the “hardcore” would complain? Because that’s not what they want, they want predictable rewards. They want to know that if they do this build and play this way 400 times they’ll have the stuff they want. They too want it easy – they hate if anything nerfs their play making it more of a challenge! – but they want it exclusive. And the exclusion is based on the time and dedication and forum reading.

In part I often jokingly say that it is because they are still at school or close to having been at school or nostalgic for school: read up, study, rehearse, learn by heart, repeat what you learned, get rewards.

I’m… mid-core.. Been a gamer for a long time but even when I had lots of time I was mid-core. I want my games to be challenging, I want to be good at them but that it take some thinking and effort (not just the stamp collecting some casual games are), but more than anything, I want it to be interesting. I hated the “learn by heart” part of school and really don’t want my time wasted like that by a game. Gave up on many a (single player) game if it stuck me at a boss which needed to be learned by heart by doing the same thing over and over 300 times until you got the whole chain right. There’s always another game, or a book, or, if I wanted to do something repetitive, there was always school work or chores.

Mid core, I think, means someone who gets into games a lot and puts the time and interest in (a lot more than casual players) games and would call themselves a keen gamer, but doesn’t have the “collector/completist” gene or the need for status in game that powers a hardcore gamer. These things just dont bring rewards to a mid core gamer, compared to the emotional and time investment needed – either because they got it out of their system or never had the personality for it.

So as a mid core gamer I don’t want things to be made easier just so everyone can see everything. That would reduce my fun, as I want a challenge and diversity and if everything is a 1-button walk in the park then it is not diverse and not fun. I dont want the “casual” people to have their way if they want everything to be easy.

But I am actually not sure that the people clamoring for easier dungeons are really the casual players (I think they are hardcore players who have rushed and whose skill has yet to develop). Because casual people havent yet made it to the forums to complain. But indeed sooner or later the casual people will demand access to things, once they run out of maps to clear. And hopefully by then there’ll be new things, rather than a nerfing of content. I want dungeons to look forward to doing, not farmville in the catacombs.

I also don’t want the game to change to cater for the hardcore, as defined above. I have seen so many rush by doing all the “visible” things to tick the box and get the achievement/points/xp. Changing the game to provide maximum utility would just be no fun for me.

I think the game is aimed at the mid core gamers like me and I am extremely happy with it There are bugs, quirks, and who knows how well it will hold on through the years, but this is a game that breathes diversity and interestingness, and rewards diversity and curiosity.

While the hardcore rush around I also notice that people seem to miss events that aren’t marked on the map. No heart, not little “here’s an NPC waiting for a trigger” sign and yet there are many surprise events around, plus chains which I haven’t yet seen triggered the whole way, and paths in event chains never taken that sometimes bring bigger events… The casual don’t have the experience to necessarily find those, the hardcore run past, so it is all been put here lovingly for the different kind of mid core players – the explorer, the crafter, the gatherer, even the ghost farmer or the roleplayer. Or the one who talks to all the NPCs, like me

So if the major worry is around the dungeons, making them more random, perhaps in response to a level of skill (self selected or measured) or some guild setting, would allow the dungeons to cater to more styles at the same time. And the rewards could still be different so that the hard core has something to show for their time. That too is only fair!

I wouldn’t categorize myself as hardcore or casual. I used to be a very hardcore gamer, and while I still play alot of hours and min/max my builds, I typically don’t care enough anymore to grind out the best of the best gear like I used to. So I’d say I’m semi-hardcore now, or whatever you want to call it.

As far as the dungeons go, they’re not fun right now. I wouldn’t call them challenging either, as there is a big difference between challenging and what dungeons are right now which could be described as:

1)Do you know what the boss does?
—if no, die and respawn
—if yes continue on
2)Did you dodge roll the 1 shot mechanic?
—if no, die and respawn
—if yes continue on
3)Repeat #2 10-20 times until the boss or mob pack is dead perfectly, or die and respawn.

There is alot they could do to make the dungeons still be challenging and not completely revolve around 1 shot mechanics and being able to dodge roll each and every one of them.

One day we all become casual gamers.

I used to be a hardcore gamer…then I finished college and got a job and a fiance. Game time will be even less once I have a kid.

See, I’m a casual, and I really don’t mind the difficulty. Sure, the story mode in dungeons could be a little less frustrating at times, but so far, I’m having fun (and my all-casual guild is well able to handle them) – and I don’t begrudge the difficulty of the explorable mode, as it is entirely optional content as was simply not designed for me.

…In the end, I believe, it might be best if they introduced a “hard mode” button like they did in GW1 for the overall content, to satisfy “hardcore gamers” while not driving away casuals. Might be difficult in a persistent game world though.

hardcore or elitism, there is a difference, what we should understand is that elitism is the main source that plague commmunity not casual/hardcore battle, true hardcore gives pages of constructive feedback with clear understanding of game mechanism, elitism give “l2p”

I suspect the game is still too new and in flux for the all the game mechanisms to be understood – at least if the guesses and arguments in the class forums are to be believed.

This game has plenty to reward casual and mid-core gamers. The casual people can follow the personal story and the map highlights (get all the viewpoints and hearts etc.) and that is already a huge and fun game.
Then there is exploring, world events, crafting and the story mode dungeons.
So I agree that there needs to be a part in the dungeons that is elite – but that it ought to be fun.

I always hated the dungeons which had to be won by reading up the “formula” and repeating it until perfect, that is not elite and it is not fun except for a small number of people (and I suspect these have been trained into this way of gaming by a large number of games in the past, rather than because it truly is fun). It’s much more interesting if the dungeon can be won by understanding the mechanisms, your class, your build and that of the other people you play with, and tactics.

So If i get a random group and go in a dungeon i understand i wont have much fun?

OP. you are misguided.

Casual =/= scrub as you seam to think.

Casula/hardcore merely denote playtime. Casual players also want hard demanding content, and some hardcore players bascially always work out the easiest work/reward activity to just farm safely.

Do not make the rather stupid mistake of assuming playtime correlates with play style.