Guild Wars 2

I believe this would be an agreeable solution for a lot of arguments people seem to have regarding raids currently.

Put the encounters in as fractals. ( Such as trash + vg + closing rifts, spirit run + gorsi, bandits + sab)
Fractal loot.
Daily reset.
Modify the encounters as little as possible.
Tweak numbers to fit 5-man instances + difficulty scales.
Remove raid-only achievements.
Maybe add some fotm achievements.

This would:
Allow people to get exp with the encounters & mechanics.
Allow people to take on the encounters with less lead time to form up ( finding 4 vs 9).
Allow people to try the fights without the high pug requirements.
Allow people to learn while still getting full asc gear. ( assuming anet adds them into the lower tiers).
Add more fractals!! ( this alone seems like enough of an argument to me..)

Out of the many different suggestions to make raids “accessible”, I consider this to be one of the worse, as it won’t accomplish anything

Chris McSwag.4683:

Out of the many different suggestions to make raids “accessible”, I consider this to be one of the worse, as it won’t accomplish anything

Do you have a reason for this opinion?

The problem with this approach is that these fractals would be redundant content from the perspective of players who are raiding already. Obviously they could ignore these fractals but within the current daily system that means that they have to pass up rewards everytime a “raid fractal” is in the rotation. Not to mention the fact that there would be a loss of content as old fractals are replaced by a reworked raid encounter. (Considering there is a maximum of 25 unique fractals per tier and each raid may break down into 2-3 fractals.)
While I agree that new fractals are needed they should be new content entirely and not a rework of raids, dungeons or open world encounters.

*Fractals, even on higher levels, are generally very easy, low pressure content. While that would make a decent environment for inexperienced players to learn, it also means that you will experience very little of the mechanics of a raid boss simply because it will be dead shortly after the fight begins.
*fractals can be cleared with any comp, something that won’t be the case for most raid pugs. Unless it will be balanced around specific roles, people will learn very little about what challenges the raid actually offers.
*in the event you balance it around the same roles and mechanics, the lfg will still only ask for experienced players of certain class/build/gear unless mechanics are toned down so much you won’t care about them anyway.
*five man comp and strategies are, in general, very different to 10 man and as raids are about synergy, it won’t accomplish much.

Would rather they focus on building fractals out of other content (Toxic Hybrid boss when?) than raids.

So you’re argument is: because fractals are meant to be easy & they should stay that way.
That different group comps makes it pointless to learn the telegraphs and basic mechanics.

we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I see no reason why fractals, especially higher scales should be, or have to be, or continue to be braindead easy. Nor do I see how exposing players to the tells and even a simplified set of mechanics as a bad thing. It creates a stepping stone to progress onto raids, as well as a practice/training ground for those who already do raid.

@ katery, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ katary, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

With the current system for fractalscales a hardcap exists. Yes, that system can be changed (and in the long-run it probably will be) to remove that limitation but right now it is something we have to keep in mind.
That argument is applicable for fractals as the different scales present the same content with minor alterations through stronger/ weaker enemies and varying instabilities. Not unlike the transformation of raids into fractals would turn out. However, when one goes to play Arah path1 or Salvation Pass that is a unique piece of content which is not recreated in any other form within the game.

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ katary, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

With the current system for fractalscales a hardcap exists. Yes, that system can be changed (and in the long-run it probably will be) to remove that limitation but right now it is something we have to keep in mind.
That argument is applicable for fractals as the different scales present the same content with minor alterations through stronger/ weaker enemies and varying instabilities. Not unlike the transformation of raids into fractals would turn out. However, when one goes to play Arah path1 or Salvation Pass that is a unique piece of content which is not recreated in any other form within the game.

So.. your argument against it is “I want my special snowflake content to stay exclusive and barriered off”

I don’t think this is a good argument against. It sounds quite selfish actually.

I’d prefer new content over recycled content.

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ katary, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

With the current system for fractalscales a hardcap exists. Yes, that system can be changed (and in the long-run it probably will be) to remove that limitation but right now it is something we have to keep in mind.
That argument is applicable for fractals as the different scales present the same content with minor alterations through stronger/ weaker enemies and varying instabilities. Not unlike the transformation of raids into fractals would turn out. However, when one goes to play Arah path1 or Salvation Pass that is a unique piece of content which is not recreated in any other form within the game.

So.. your argument against it is “I want my special snowflake content to stay exclusive and barriered off”

I don’t think this is a good argument against. It sounds quite selfish actually.

My argument is: I am in favor of new fractal content, but that content should be “new content” and not “content that is new to fractals” (meaning no raids, dungeons, open world, story missions, etc.).
I don’t think that is unreasonably selfish of me since everyone else is getting that new content as well. Then again your proposal aims to create content for everyone except those who are raiding already. I am under the impression that it is illogical for you to claim the moral high ground at this point.

This isn’t about moral high ground(even though are you essentially saying " mommy that boy got a new toy! I want a new toy!").

This is about solving many players complaints.
(reset day, lockout time, high pug entry reqs, huge learning curve that is off putting to new raiders, to name a few complaints I’ve heard of..)
About bridging the divide between fractals/dungeons and raids.

Giving those who want to re-run encounters to help others learn them something better than a couple of greens and blue for their effort.

I agree, fotm needs new content too.
But why should the two things be mutually exclusive? That is illogical.

Worst idea so far concerning raids. We just need new fractals and we get one next week.

That could work, as 90+ scales. And definitely better idea than 1 new fractal every 3 years.

Vinceman.4572:

Worst idea so far concerning raids. We just need new fractals and we get one next week.

As I’ve said to previous replies..
Do you have a reason for your opinion?

Yes, I have but I’m tired to discuss it here. Makes no sense for me. Too much time input for being a really important thing. Must be enough to say here that I am thinking your idea is stupid.

Also, we get a fractal after they readopted fractal design. It is not like Rednik said with 1 new frac every 3 years. They had stopped developing them for a reason way before HoT (we don’t know why) and now we will definitely see more new fracs within a shorter timespan, that’s for sure.

Vinceman.4572:

Yes, I have but I’m tired to discuss it here. Makes no sense for me. Too much time input for being a really important thing. Must be enough to say here that I am thinking your idea is stupid.

Also, we get a fractal after they readopted fractal design. It is not like Rednik said with 1 new frac every 3 years. They had stopped developing them for a reason way before HoT (we don’t know why) and now we will definitely see more new fracs within a shorter timespan, that’s for sure.

So you can talk about how we’re getting new fractals soon, but you’re conveniently too tired to summarise why you think the idea is bad?

This sounds like you’re opinion is baseless and therefore fringing on irrelevancy. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it makes no sense for you.

Feel free to bring any genuine discussion to the thread ( as opposed to “I don’t like it, /throws toy out of pram”).

I don’t like it if my food has been warmed-up. Does that sound better to ya?

Raid content = raid content. Play raids if you want to experience it. It’s not hard.

Fractal content = Fractal content. Different stuff and a lil bit easier. We need new content here not recycled stuff. Recycled stuff is boring as kitten.

Stop saying an opinion is baseless if there are people who just think that some ideas like this are not well-thought or stupid. We don’t have to think for yourself, that’s your work.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ katary, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

With the current system for fractalscales a hardcap exists. Yes, that system can be changed (and in the long-run it probably will be) to remove that limitation but right now it is something we have to keep in mind.
That argument is applicable for fractals as the different scales present the same content with minor alterations through stronger/ weaker enemies and varying instabilities. Not unlike the transformation of raids into fractals would turn out. However, when one goes to play Arah path1 or Salvation Pass that is a unique piece of content which is not recreated in any other form within the game.

So.. your argument against it is “I want my special snowflake content to stay exclusive and barriered off”

I don’t think this is a good argument against. It sounds quite selfish actually.

My argument is: I am in favor of new fractal content, but that content should be “new content” and not “content that is new to fractals” (meaning no raids, dungeons, open world, story missions, etc.).
I don’t think that is unreasonably selfish of me since everyone else is getting that new content as well. Then again your proposal aims to create content for everyone except those who are raiding already. I am under the impression that it is illogical for you to claim the moral high ground at this point.

This isn’t about moral high ground(even though are you essentially saying " mommy that boy got a new toy! I want a new toy!").

This is about solving many players complaints.
(reset day, lockout time, high pug entry reqs, huge learning curve that is off putting to new raiders, to name a few complaints I’ve heard of..)
About bridging the divide between fractals/dungeons and raids.

Giving those who want to re-run encounters to help others learn them something better than a couple of greens and blue for their effort.

I agree, fotm needs new content too.
But why should the two things be mutually exclusive? That is illogical.

I agree it is not, but when someone throws out an accusation like “You are just being selfish.”, the implied statement behind that is “I am morally superior to that person, therefore everyone should agree with me”. Additionally: “Mommy[Arenanet], that boy[raiders] got a new toy[raids]! I want a new toy[raids, slightly different]”. That is pretty much how it sounds to me, interesting how mutual that impression is.

This game’s PvE could benefit greatly from a better learning curve, no argument there. Also FotM (at least the highest tier) is probably the best place to put content that bridges the gap between raids and pretty much every other piece of content.
My question is simply: Is there an absolute necessity that that content is a “downscaled” copy of a raid instance? Or is it possible to create brand new content, which just so happens to have encounters with a level of mechanics similiar to a fractal version of a raid?
Raiders would have a motivation to play those instances since they haven’t seen them before. While players who are trying to get into raids would not have to play through a slightly different version of content which they have already seen a number of times as a fractal, when they are actually raiding. (Which helps to keep the experience interesting)

That wouldn’t do much for those people interested in experiencing the story of the raid, although they can’t raid (for whatever reason) but that does not seem to be the goal of your proposal anyway.

So now I need to face the same bosses everywhere? No ty.

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Katary.7096:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ katary, there is not a hard limit to 25 unique fractals per tier.
Simply remove the numeric value to each fractal, and have each instance appear as 1 of 4 tiers. ( anet has already mentioned something like this as a possibility).
As for calling it redundant content, its no more redundant than rerunning a raid or dungeon or fractal is now.

With the current system for fractalscales a hardcap exists. Yes, that system can be changed (and in the long-run it probably will be) to remove that limitation but right now it is something we have to keep in mind.
That argument is applicable for fractals as the different scales present the same content with minor alterations through stronger/ weaker enemies and varying instabilities. Not unlike the transformation of raids into fractals would turn out. However, when one goes to play Arah path1 or Salvation Pass that is a unique piece of content which is not recreated in any other form within the game.

So.. your argument against it is “I want my special snowflake content to stay exclusive and barriered off”

I don’t think this is a good argument against. It sounds quite selfish actually.

My argument is: I am in favor of new fractal content, but that content should be “new content” and not “content that is new to fractals” (meaning no raids, dungeons, open world, story missions, etc.).
I don’t think that is unreasonably selfish of me since everyone else is getting that new content as well. Then again your proposal aims to create content for everyone except those who are raiding already. I am under the impression that it is illogical for you to claim the moral high ground at this point.

This isn’t about moral high ground(even though are you essentially saying " mommy that boy got a new toy! I want a new toy!").

This is about solving many players complaints.
(reset day, lockout time, high pug entry reqs, huge learning curve that is off putting to new raiders, to name a few complaints I’ve heard of..)
About bridging the divide between fractals/dungeons and raids.

Giving those who want to re-run encounters to help others learn them something better than a couple of greens and blue for their effort.

I agree, fotm needs new content too.
But why should the two things be mutually exclusive? That is illogical.

I agree it is not, but when someone throws out an accusation like “You are just being selfish.”, the implied statement behind that is “I am morally superior to that person, therefore everyone should agree with me”. Additionally: “Mommy[Arenanet], that boy[raiders] got a new toy[raids]! I want a new toy[raids, slightly different]”. That is pretty much how it sounds to me, interesting how mutual that impression is.

This game’s PvE could benefit greatly from a better learning curve, no argument there. Also FotM (at least the highest tier) is probably the best place to put content that bridges the gap between raids and pretty much every other piece of content.
My question is simply: Is there an absolute necessity that that content is a “downscaled” copy of a raid instance? Or is it possible to create brand new content, which just so happens to have encounters with a level of mechanics similiar to a fractal version of a raid?
Raiders would have a motivation to play those instances since they haven’t seen them before. While players who are trying to get into raids would not have to play through a slightly different version of content which they have already seen a number of times as a fractal, when they are actually raiding. (Which helps to keep the experience interesting)

That wouldn’t do much for those people interested in experiencing the story of the raid, although they can’t raid (for whatever reason) but that does not seem to be the goal of your proposal anyway.

You’re manipulation of the analogy doesn’t really work when you’re talking to someone who already raids.. it would be more like “mommy, I got a new toy, now give me another one!” :P

It would indeed be nice to have entirely new instances in fractals.
However since the raid encounters are already built, and can be entered into at a given point, there is a lot of work already done.

Raiders have motivation to rerun raid instances for very little loot, so I think motivating them to rerun while get better loot in fractals would be a non-issue.

It just strikes me as an easy way to solve a lot of the complaints people have regarding raids, while also helping those who already raid (loot for rerunning, and doing training runs, opportunity to meet like-minded players who want to get into raiding..)

I think the positive effects would outweigh the concerns raised so far.
But I’m not suggesting this an alternative to new fractals at all, I’m still saying anet could do both. over whatever time frame and priority..

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

That’s a massive change in direction for the franchise — there has always been content that required different degrees of skill, always been rewards gated behind such content, and always been some amount of lore|dialogue in such content as well.

People forget that at launch and for months and months and months afterward, a huge fraction of the playerbase believed dungeons to be too difficult…and dungeons have all sorts of lore and skins. Fractals continue to be an area that a lot of people feel is inaccessible. Raids are just the latest target.

Therefore, it’s not a “compromise” to offer different levels of raiding or move some of the encounters to fractals — it’s a complete change of direction of the game’s philosophy.

Raids are designed to cater to a particular group of players. I was against adding them to the game, since I do not count myself among that group. But now that it’s here, I’m glad for the opportunity to challenge myself, even if finding the right 10 people remains the biggest challenge.

I think ANet should revisit locking legendary armor behind raids (I’d like to see other skins that are available via WvW, PvP, and PvE) and give non-raiders a chance to explore the instances (they are amazingly designed).

However, I don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s time to shoehorn raid content to fractals or even to multiple degrees of difficulty. I’d much, much prefer to see ANet creating more content, not micro-engineering the same content over and over again.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.
You clearly didn’t bother to read past the thread title.

Get down of your high and mighty egocentric horse. Read the first post.
You are the one making assumptions, about the suggestion. Assumptions which are in fact wrong.

Chris McSwag.4683:

*Fractals, even on higher levels, are generally very easy, low pressure content. While that would make a decent environment for inexperienced players to learn, it also means that you will experience very little of the mechanics of a raid boss simply because it will be dead shortly after the fight begins.

*Spoken like a true elitist. True for maybe 10-20% of all GW2 players, complete nonsense for anyone else.

In general, I am glad for every new fractal, regardless if they recycle old stuff(but please, no Asura again! ) or make a new one.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.
You clearly didn’t bother to read past the thread title.

Get down of your high and mighty egocentric horse. Read the first post.
You are the one making assumptions, about the suggestion. Assumptions which are in fact wrong.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.

The hypocrisy here is off the charts, jesus.

Just because you don’t agree with valid arguments doesn’t mean you can ignore them. Turning the raids into fractals would not be healthy. Raids are supposed to be the hardest PvE content in the game. They are designed to be harder than fractals. If you want to get in them then its on you to learn the mechanics and up your play so that you can. Its not on ANet to dumb them down so that they are accessible to you at your current level of play.

Torolan.5816:

Chris McSwag.4683:

*Fractals, even on higher levels, are generally very easy, low pressure content. While that would make a decent environment for inexperienced players to learn, it also means that you will experience very little of the mechanics of a raid boss simply because it will be dead shortly after the fight begins.

*Spoken like a true elitist. True for maybe 10-20% of all GW2 players, complete nonsense for anyone else.

In general, I am glad for every new fractal, regardless if they recycle old stuff(but please, no Asura again! ) or make a new one.

Not really elitism, Just his(her?) opinion.
Throwing things around like that doesn’t help the topic at hand any more than baseless opinions from people who have no desire to discuss their reasoning, or the disrespect to ignore the original post. Please try to keep things constructive.

You raise an issue I hadn’t mentioned previously, being able to enjoy the encounters themselves. Personally I think the raid encounters – even if copied over and modified for fractals – should still be as challenging as they are in the raid setting. Fractals currently are mechanically too easy even at the higher levels.

It’s possible they seem easy due to the way fotm progression slowly raises the bar, which is why when jumping straight in, players such as yourself sorta might go “woah, hang on.. this is really hard!” Which is actually quite an elegant design success story as far as I’m concerned ( I know some will disagree, some like this huge chasm to try and cross).
This is another good reason why I think fractals would be a good means to introduce the raid mechanics (be that through completely new encounters, or recycling of existing ones) is a good approach.

OriOri.8724:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.
You clearly didn’t bother to read past the thread title.

Get down of your high and mighty egocentric horse. Read the first post.
You are the one making assumptions, about the suggestion. Assumptions which are in fact wrong.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.

The hypocrisy here is off the charts, jesus.

Just because you don’t agree with valid arguments doesn’t mean you can ignore them. Turning the raids into fractals would not be healthy. Raids are supposed to be the hardest PvE content in the game. They are designed to be harder than fractals. If you want to get in them then its on you to learn the mechanics and up your play so that you can. Its not on ANet to dumb them down so that they are accessible to you at your current level of play.

Valid argument =/= incorrect assumptions, particularly assumptions about what is in the original post.

It strikes me that you are also making assumptions about me as a player, and the content I complete. Assumptions which are also wrong by the way.

Please, stop posting incorrect assumptions and calling it valid argument.
At best it is naive. at worst it is a rude and ignorant personal attack.

As for it “being unhealthy” Please help me understand why you think that?

Torolan.5816:

*Spoken like a true elitist. True for maybe 10-20% of all GW2 players, complete nonsense for anyone else.

Really? You really believe that T4 fractals are a challenge for 80-90% of the playerbase?
You are definitely wrong here! The LFG is full with T4 groups, most of them are without requirements, only have the proper amount of AR to go with.

For the encounters: You can likely afk melee and/or range mobs/bosses there if you are able to play your class. You don’t need to be a good player. I pug them every day with very little problems. The groups facing problems are the ones where some players have actually very little experience AND refuse to adjust their playstyle (not builds!) and are ignorant in chat if somebody is making a good hint or tries to lead the group.
The AND is very crucial here because if you only have 0 clue about the fractals you can literally stand next to the exp guys and just do dmg.

Just play with the group and listen to commands of others! This is group content (as long as you don’t lowman it) so play team-wise!

Additionally you have the lower fracs everyone should go through. I recommend this and I highly doubt that someone is starting fracs with T4 ! This fact is resulting in the situation that EVERY player should know the basic principle of every fractal when he reaches the T4 level.

There is also a “trick”: Pick 1-3 Condi Reapers with you and the whole thing is a cakewalk!

Maybe you just haven’t tried T4, I had some people in my friend list too saying they were too hard some months ago. Some day I could convince them to join us and they were impressed how easy it was.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

That’s a massive change in direction for the franchise — there has always been content that required different degrees of skill, always been rewards gated behind such content, and always been some amount of lore|dialogue in such content as well.

People forget that at launch and for months and months and months afterward, a huge fraction of the playerbase believed dungeons to be too difficult…and dungeons have all sorts of lore and skins. Fractals continue to be an area that a lot of people feel is inaccessible. Raids are just the latest target.

Therefore, it’s not a “compromise” to offer different levels of raiding or move some of the encounters to fractals — it’s a complete change of direction of the game’s philosophy.

Raids are designed to cater to a particular group of players. I was against adding them to the game, since I do not count myself among that group. But now that it’s here, I’m glad for the opportunity to challenge myself, even if finding the right 10 people remains the biggest challenge.

I think ANet should revisit locking legendary armor behind raids (I’d like to see other skins that are available via WvW, PvP, and PvE) and give non-raiders a chance to explore the instances (they are amazingly designed).

However, I don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s time to shoehorn raid content to fractals or even to multiple degrees of difficulty. I’d much, much prefer to see ANet creating more content, not micro-engineering the same content over and over again.

Change direction of… what? Raids was not in game until HoT. There is literally nothing to change, and bridging gap “hardest fractals = easy version of raid” will create a perfect learning line for pve players, Dungeons->Fractals->Raids.

Torolan.5816:

Chris McSwag.4683:

*Fractals, even on higher levels, are generally very easy, low pressure content. While that would make a decent environment for inexperienced players to learn, it also means that you will experience very little of the mechanics of a raid boss simply because it will be dead shortly after the fight begins.

*Spoken like a true elitist. True for maybe 10-20% of all GW2 players, complete nonsense for anyone else.

In general, I am glad for every new fractal, regardless if they recycle old stuff(but please, no Asura again! ) or make a new one.

I can’t really agree that it is elitist, given that fractals are not that hard even for relatively inexperienced groups. The mechanics are not very difficult for any of them and the biggest threat is agony. Fractals are designed to increase the challenge of the same content over and over, but it just ends up turning into HP sponges and higher likelihood of being killed in fewer hits; it’s not truly an increase in real difficulty.

And even if it was elitist, that doesn’t make it wrong.

I have every old school success in fractals and was lvl 50 before it was cool so to say. So no, I don´t think fractals are very hard. But still hear me out:
You, me and the rest of the 10-20% know their classes and what to do. A fractal appears only faceroll easy to you because you are a dedicated player, something you basically confirm with your answers. A T4 fractal is of course easy to someone that raids or soloed lupi or some other stuff the common player usually does not even attempt.

Why do you assume that anyone or even a large majority is on your level of dedication to the game? That surely is not the case.

Torolan.5816:

I have every old school success in fractals and was lvl 50 before it was cool so to say. So no, I don´t think fractals are very hard. But still hear me out:
You, me and the rest of the 10-20% know their classes and what to do. A fractal appears only faceroll easy to you because you are a dedicated player, something you basically confirm with your answers. A T4 fractal is of course easy to someone that raids or soloed lupi or some other stuff the common player usually does not even attempt.

Why do you assume that anyone or even a large majority is on your level of dedication to the game? That surely is not the case.

1. Never soloed Lupi
2. Only beaten 1 raid boss so far
3. When you say dedicated player, what’s your criteria for that? I play less than 4 hours a week
4. My experience with fractals comes from having actually done them, and like I said they are easier when you know what to expect; per what I also said, the mechanics don’t change so if you do what I did and start at a low level and work your way up by the time you get to T4 you already know what to do. If someone is trying to do t4 with no agony resistance and no experience then not only should they expect to fail, but complaining about it just means they want instant gratification and their opinion should be discounted when discussing what people want out of fractals.
5. Maybe if the “common player” attempted to do these things then we wouldn’t have to be worrying about it.
6. Even if fractals were excessively elitist in their nature, why should someone who hasn’t bothered to put in any effort get the same rewards if they can’t beat the same challenge?
7. Finally, if fractals are that much of an impossible challenge for someone already, why are they wasting their time on something they know they can’t do? Stick to low level fractals until you get to where you need to be and stop complaining that other people have access to stuff you don’t when you don’t do the necessary things to gain access to them.

UnbentMars.9126:

Torolan.5816:

I have every old school success in fractals and was lvl 50 before it was cool so to say. So no, I don´t think fractals are very hard. But still hear me out:
You, me and the rest of the 10-20% know their classes and what to do. A fractal appears only faceroll easy to you because you are a dedicated player, something you basically confirm with your answers. A T4 fractal is of course easy to someone that raids or soloed lupi or some other stuff the common player usually does not even attempt.

Why do you assume that anyone or even a large majority is on your level of dedication to the game? That surely is not the case.

1. Never soloed Lupi
2. Only beaten 1 raid boss so far
3. When you say dedicated player, what’s your criteria for that? I play less than 4 hours a week
4. My experience with fractals comes from having actually done them, and like I said they are easier when you know what to expect; per what I also said, the mechanics don’t change so if you do what I did and start at a low level and work your way up by the time you get to T4 you already know what to do. If someone is trying to do t4 with no agony resistance and no experience then not only should they expect to fail, but complaining about it just means they want instant gratification and their opinion should be discounted when discussing what people want out of fractals.
5. Maybe if the “common player” attempted to do these things then we wouldn’t have to be worrying about it.
6. Even if fractals were excessively elitist in their nature, why should someone who hasn’t bothered to put in any effort get the same rewards if they can’t beat the same challenge?
7. Finally, if fractals are that much of an impossible challenge for someone already, why are they wasting their time on something they know they can’t do? Stick to low level fractals until you get to where you need to be and stop complaining that other people have access to stuff you don’t when you don’t do the necessary things to gain access to them.

Huh?
Fractals, even at the highest level, are not elitist. The idea that basically anyone can do it with a minimum of preparation is elitist.
The points you raise depend on the stance you have if GW2 should be made for people with dedication or people that want to drop in, do stuff they like, and log off.

Maybe the common player has no interest in soloing/speedclearing content made for groups?

Torolan.5816:

UnbentMars.9126:

Torolan.5816:

I have every old school success in fractals and was lvl 50 before it was cool so to say. So no, I don´t think fractals are very hard. But still hear me out:
You, me and the rest of the 10-20% know their classes and what to do. A fractal appears only faceroll easy to you because you are a dedicated player, something you basically confirm with your answers. A T4 fractal is of course easy to someone that raids or soloed lupi or some other stuff the common player usually does not even attempt.

Why do you assume that anyone or even a large majority is on your level of dedication to the game? That surely is not the case.

1. Never soloed Lupi
2. Only beaten 1 raid boss so far
3. When you say dedicated player, what’s your criteria for that? I play less than 4 hours a week
4. My experience with fractals comes from having actually done them, and like I said they are easier when you know what to expect; per what I also said, the mechanics don’t change so if you do what I did and start at a low level and work your way up by the time you get to T4 you already know what to do. If someone is trying to do t4 with no agony resistance and no experience then not only should they expect to fail, but complaining about it just means they want instant gratification and their opinion should be discounted when discussing what people want out of fractals.
5. Maybe if the “common player” attempted to do these things then we wouldn’t have to be worrying about it.
6. Even if fractals were excessively elitist in their nature, why should someone who hasn’t bothered to put in any effort get the same rewards if they can’t beat the same challenge?
7. Finally, if fractals are that much of an impossible challenge for someone already, why are they wasting their time on something they know they can’t do? Stick to low level fractals until you get to where you need to be and stop complaining that other people have access to stuff you don’t when you don’t do the necessary things to gain access to them.

Huh?
Fractals, even at the highest level, are not elitist. The idea that basically anyone can do it with a minimum of preparation is elitist.
The points you raise depend on the stance you have if GW2 should be made for people with dedication or people that want to drop in, do stuff they like, and log off.

Maybe the common player has no interest in soloing/speedclearing content made for groups?

I’m not sure saying that anyone can do something is elitist, in fact I’m pretty sure its the opposite.
To answer the implicit question there, my stance is that GW2 should have a variety of content. In this case, if people like doing fractals but don’t want to spend time getting to the highest level ones, they would be better suited by their own preferences to sticking to lower level fractals.

If the “common player” is not interested in doing those things, then they shouldn’t do them. And if they don’t do them, they shouldn’t be complaining about the content they don’t want to do since there is absolutely nothing that forces them to do any of the content in GW2 whatsoever. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Ok, this discussion is taking an interesting turn.

Vinceman.4572:

“For the encounters: You can likely afk melee and/or range mobs/bosses there if you are able to play your class. "

This is kinda self contradicting. You’re implying that by playing well you can be afk/braindead. While I know what you mean, I think this is highly misleading for those who don’t know what you mean.

Paraphrasing this: after a while things become muscle memory and you react without thinking. At which point you can focus more on positioning what what the enemy is doing, which in turn becomes predictable with experience.
I wanted to clear that up because i’ve met many who have become confused by the original wording you used.

UnbentMars.9126:

Torolan.5816:

I have every old school success in fractals and was lvl 50 before it was cool so to say. So no, I don´t think fractals are very hard. But still hear me out:
You, me and the rest of the 10-20% know their classes and what to do. A fractal appears only faceroll easy to you because you are a dedicated player, something you basically confirm with your answers. A T4 fractal is of course easy to someone that raids or soloed lupi or some other stuff the common player usually does not even attempt.

Why do you assume that anyone or even a large majority is on your level of dedication to the game? That surely is not the case.

1. Never soloed Lupi
2. Only beaten 1 raid boss so far
3. When you say dedicated player, what’s your criteria for that? I play less than 4 hours a week
4. My experience with fractals comes from having actually done them, and like I said they are easier when you know what to expect; per what I also said, the mechanics don’t change so if you do what I did and start at a low level and work your way up by the time you get to T4 you already know what to do. If someone is trying to do t4 with no agony resistance and no experience then not only should they expect to fail, but complaining about it just means they want instant gratification and their opinion should be discounted when discussing what people want out of fractals.
5. Maybe if the “common player” attempted to do these things then we wouldn’t have to be worrying about it.
6. Even if fractals were excessively elitist in their nature, why should someone who hasn’t bothered to put in any effort get the same rewards if they can’t beat the same challenge?
7. Finally, if fractals are that much of an impossible challenge for someone already, why are they wasting their time on something they know they can’t do? Stick to low level fractals until you get to where you need to be and stop complaining that other people have access to stuff you don’t when you don’t do the necessary things to gain access to them.

This boils down to: how to you identify a good player from a bad one.
things like soloing lupi – is largely about practice. However it’s not all that useful if you want to enjoy the game with other people. Being good solo certainly helps with group content, but its not really needed. Even for raids. I’d probably kick someone for boasting about a lupi kill just because their attitude would be insufferable.

Time investment certainly helps, but is by no means an indicator of how good you are at the game.
I know players who have maybe 2 hours a week, but are x*10^100 times better than player x who is maybe online 100 hours/week (obviously there may be some exaggeration here..)

To talk about anets aim: hard content was always a thing. I remember the dungeons at launch. They were umm.. Interesting. Suffice it to say I wasn’t expecting a dungeon which was only lvl 45 to actually be particularly hard ( figured that would be the level 80 ones).

However (Bringing this back on topic), what we currently have is a significant gap between top tier fotm, and raids.
There are a lot of different complaints regarding raids.

I find this honestly quite bizarre, given that on an individual level, I don’t think raids aren’t particularly harder than t4 fotm. This may be due how I’ve been playing for a while. Even in fotm, even in dungeons I like to know what the enemy actually does. Even if they will die in 5s.
So raids were for me an amazing piece of content!
However I’d attribute 95% of (my) raid failures to someone not having a clue about mechanics.

Now the issue here, is nowhere else in the (PvE) game do people actually have to watch what is going on very closely. Raids are a much more involved piece of content. It can be a shock, and quite daunting then to step up that far in a single leap.

I like the difficulty of the content(raids). However the great chasm people are having to cross to get into them is huge. I’m not suggesting bring down the difficulty of raids. I’m suggesting add something in between to help people develop as players, at a pace more comfortable for them. This in no way devalues raids as difficult content.

Recycling the encounters ( perhaps not even all of them, just the ones which can be easily moved to 5-man format without any changes) in my mind is an easy way for anet to add more content (not the only content) to bridge the gap without adding a huge amount of work for them.

Anet has already stated they want to add the raid mechanics into some of the fractal revamps – so it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me if they are re-skinned or not.

So lets look at what concerns people have, and see if we can solve them.

It is elitist because it trivialized a content many people have not reached or have trouble to reach. It´s basicaly saying:
“I am a raider and have fractal lvl 100. But only raids are viable, fractals are of no consequence for anyone, and if you are not able to faceroll lvl 90+ fractals, raids are not for you.”
That is elitist in my book. Any idea that says that people who don´t want to greatly(please note this word) invest in this or that should not play a content is kind of elitist.

Where is the point of making content that is not aimed at the majority or at least a sizeable minority of players and/or customers? What you, I or anyone taking part in this discussion wants is of not much concern if we do not represent a sizeable potion of the player base so to say. Therefore we are back at the point where I deem to see high level fractals not faceroll content for a sizeable potion of the players and you do.
Of course you can also say the same about pvp and wvw, but that would mean for me that raids are another game mode, which they are not in my opinion. A raid is pve.

Fractals have indeed all the advantages you list, low level fractals can counter your inexperience, missing equipment and a lack of time. All of these are concerns many people carry with them when it come to raids, so why not give them the story and the feeling of the raid in fractals instead of either excluding them or forcing them into stuff? Because that would cut short the supply of potential raiders, something no raider should look for probably.

No one said that if you can’t faceroll fracs, raids aren’t for you.

My point still stands: T4 Fractals are easy if you know the mechanics which you should have learned on your way leveling up. The rest is knowing your class, stay together and just throw in the things your class is able to do + pressing the damage button.
Anyone who denies that can’t be taken seriously.

Raids aren’t significantly harder than some of the T4 fractals. It’s just the missing practice at this time because raids are “kinda new”.
Have a look at the SC guilds, they clear all wings in no time. Yeah, they are skilled. But I also have friends and others in guilds also clearing all 3 on Monday before evening. They have no speed clear players inside, they are no special kind of players or anything else. It was just practice over practice in a span of several weeks, not even months.

I myself can clear any boss if the group is aware of the mechanics. I don’t need any practice although I’ve never raided in a static group except when Spirit Vale came out and we tried VG – I have to admit we were totally new and had issues but only for 2 days. I’m far away of being a high skilled player it’s all practice and execute the things you have to do with your class to get a boss down.
So I personally think the transition from T4-Fractals to raids isn’t very high. Yes it is a bit, but the difference is suitable: From dungeons to fractals to raids.

I agree with the other posters here — this is a pretty bad idea.

If you already raid, then raid-fractals add nothing. Worse than nothing, because you’ll repeat the same content when you fractal.

If you are interested in raiding, then fractals already serve as a stepping stone in skill level. And if it’s the same, then you’ll be bored when you raid, because it’s more of the same.

And, somewhat ironically, but t4 raid-fractals would have a higher barrier to entry, because it requires more ascended gear.

New fractals are far superior to recycled content.

Katary.7096:

The problem with this approach is that these fractals would be redundant content from the perspective of players who are raiding already. Obviously they could ignore these fractals but within the current daily system that means that they have to pass up rewards everytime a “raid fractal” is in the rotation.

Content "on farm’ says hello. Being familiar with a piece of content has never prevented repetition in an MMO unless the rewards aren’t there.

Katary.7096:

While I agree that new fractals are needed they should be new content entirely and not a rework of raids, dungeons or open world encounters.

That part I agree with.

Absurdo.8309:

I agree with the other posters here — this is a pretty bad idea.

If you already raid, then raid-fractals add nothing. Worse than nothing, because you’ll repeat the same content when you fractal.

If you are interested in raiding, then fractals already serve as a stepping stone in skill level. [b]And if it’s the same, then you’ll be bored when you raid, because it’s more of the same.

And, somewhat ironically, but t4 raid-fractals would have a higher barrier to entry, because it requires more ascended gear. [/b]

New fractals are far superior to recycled content.

Agreed, new content is always better than recycled, but it’s hardly an exclusive or kinda deal I was suggesting. Repeating is somewhat moot, given the frequency of posts suggesting raiders often rerun later in the week. However I hadn’t considered going the other way being boring. I was looking at it from the perspective of training someone, not the one being trained up.

I do agree, the difference from t4 fractals and raids in terms of individual skill isn’t that high. However the caveat is t4 fotm can still be done 2 & 3 man… So there those who get carried, and don’t pay attention. The big step up is for people who aren’t used to having to pay attention at all to what the enemy is doing in pve.

I had wondered when someone was going to point out the geargating of fractals..

Thankyou for posting the reasoning behind your opinion.
I do think whatever anet decides to do, t4 fotm should be on par with raids in terms of mechanics and difficulty. Maybe that is their plan.

Way too much development effort for no new content at all.

The fights would have to be redesigned; damage numbers, HP values, even mechanics need adjustments. And that has to be coded, tested, etc.

You want to experience raid encounters? Visit the raid.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.
You clearly didn’t bother to read past the thread title.

Get down of your high and mighty egocentric horse. Read the first post.
You are the one making assumptions, about the suggestion. Assumptions which are in fact wrong.

I read the first post. The OP wants raid encounters to be in fractals for practice with fractal rewards and maybe achievements, but with only 5 people. That will take hundreds of hours of dev time to manage, by turning 10-person content that (sometimes) makes use of Raid Masteries into 5-person content on a different reward schedule.

Why spend all that effort? Raids are already successful among the people who do raids, which, by the way, does not include me. I have yet to participate in clearing a single wing.

It’s not “high & mighty” to suggest that MMO players have a wide spectrum of beliefs about what constitutes a fun, fair, and good MMO. It’s not egocentric to suggest that the current setup works for the type of player for whom it’s designed, especially since I don’t happen to be one of those players.

I have nothing against the different philosophies players have about what constitutes a good game. I think, however, ANet’s been clear enough about their philosophy and I have chosen to accept it as part of the game; it’s simply more fun to play GW2 when I’m not arguing in my head about everything ANet does with raids.

tl;dr The OP’s request is huge, not minor. To even suggest that this change provides so much benefit to GW2 overall to make it worth the effort suggests a massive difference in philosophy about how raids and their encounters are supposed to work.

PS Next time you want to throw shade, you might consider actually reading what the person wrote. In my first post — on which you had to comment, but refused to read — I mentioned clearly that I was against ANet adding raids to the game.

Had you engaged in a conversation, you would have learned that I have yet to finish even a single wing. You would have found out that I do fractals all the time. You would know by now that implementation of the OP’s proposal offers great personal benefits to me, for all the reasons stated in the OP’s post.

In other words, if I were being “egocentric” about this, I’d support the OP’s idea. So again, reconsider your word choice before tossing around insults indiscriminately.

Artemis, I guess it will be better if you make a copy of this thread on reddit. Devs barely visit forums these days.

There are better options, raids should remain as the unique content it is. Adding new raid content for something even for more casual is more sensible but then again what’s the point in calling thay content a raid at all? It would probably just be like 5 man’s in wow ot something.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The unstated assumption seems to be that the game’s philosophy ought to be: all instances, all content, all rewards — should be available to everyone, regardless of how they play.

I’m not even bothering to read past the first paragraph.
You clearly didn’t bother to read past the thread title.

Get down of your high and mighty egocentric horse. Read the first post.
You are the one making assumptions, about the suggestion. Assumptions which are in fact wrong.

I read the first post. The OP wants raid encounters to be in fractals for practice with fractal rewards and maybe achievements, but with only 5 people. That will take hundreds of hours of dev time to manage, by turning 10-person content that (sometimes) makes use of Raid Masteries into 5-person content on a different reward schedule.

Why spend all that effort? Raids are already successful among the people who do raids, which, by the way, does not include me. I have yet to participate in clearing a single wing.

It’s not “high & mighty” to suggest that MMO players have a wide spectrum of beliefs about what constitutes a fun, fair, and good MMO. It’s not egocentric to suggest that the current setup works for the type of player for whom it’s designed, especially since I don’t happen to be one of those players.

I have nothing against the different philosophies players have about what constitutes a good game. I think, however, ANet’s been clear enough about their philosophy and I have chosen to accept it as part of the game; it’s simply more fun to play GW2 when I’m not arguing in my head about everything ANet does with raids.

---

tl;dr The OP’s request is huge, not minor. To even suggest that this change provides so much benefit to GW2 overall to make it worth the effort suggests a massive difference in philosophy about how raids and their encounters are supposed to work.

---

PS Next time you want to throw shade, you might consider actually reading what the person wrote. In my first post — on which you had to comment, but refused to read — I mentioned clearly that I was against ANet adding raids to the game.

Had you engaged in a conversation, you would have learned that I have yet to finish even a single wing. You would have found out that I do fractals all the time. You would know by now that implementation of the OP’s proposal offers great personal benefits to me, for all the reasons stated in the OP’s post.

In other words, if I were being “egocentric” about this, I’d support the OP’s idea. So again, reconsider your word choice before tossing around insults indiscriminately.

I personally cannot believe we are seeing this now in mmorpgs where the company does one thing certain players don’t like and suddenly the sky is falling and they take it personal even though they know exactly what kind of direction the game was going, back in older mmorpgs we didn’t make a big deal out of things like this because we knew the game didnt revolve around us, I’m not saying we cant make suggestions but people not pick at every tiny thing here like they are entitled when they aren’t even spending 15 a month like certain older mmos.

Yea people complained about class balance, nerf that and nerf this but they accepted the wide variety of kinds of content for different players because they knew what kind of game they where paying for, I knew what kind of game guild wars 2 was before I bought it so what is the issue here?

..And we are back to people making ( incorrect) assumptions about other players.
Or are some of these replies veiled personal attacks? I’m not entirely sure on the intent.

There are assertions of “there are better options” and “x should stay exactly how it is now” But I’m not seeing examples, or reasoning. The articulation of thoughts here is.. very weak.

I guess this is why the devs avoiding posting here as much as possible. Too many simply wishing to try to put others down, and derail discussion about ideas. I’m starting to pity anet a bit. Gathering feedback must be quite horrible and depressing at times.

I think the issue is that you are so sure that your ideas are superior that you immediately ignore any criticism and demand ideas on solving an issue some of us does not consider to be neither minor or particularly important. Same goes for actually reading what people say, which you have confirmed not to as you immediately seem to label it as triggering hate speech/irrelevant/inferior opinions.

With all the work required to make the raid instance into a 5 man fractal might as well divert that effort to new fractals.

The fractal team and the raid team are also 2 different groups so it’s not they can simply copy & paste the instances over. The way they probably setup the raid is also heaps different since they use 10 man squads and not 5 man parties. Just looking at it from an external perspective it looks like the effort required will be huge with little to no difference in benefit when compared to getting a totally new fractal.

Also if you consider we haven’t gotten a new fractal in years it would suggest that the fractal system isn’t really intuitive with many restrictions unlike the raid design.

fishball.7204:

With all the work required to make the raid instance into a 5 man fractal might as well divert that effort to new fractals.

The fractal team and the raid team are also 2 different groups so it’s not they can simply copy & paste the instances over. The way they probably setup the raid is also heaps different since they use 10 man squads and not 5 man parties. Just looking at it from an external perspective it looks like the effort required will be huge with little to no difference in benefit when compared to getting a totally new fractal.

Also if you consider we haven’t gotten a new fractal in years it would suggest that the fractal system isn’t really intuitive with many restrictions unlike the raid design.

Right, more new fractals, “I want to believe”. Except I can’t remember any strict promises about them at all. Next fractal will be most probably last one for whole expansion, and this is optimistic time range. And if they will keep this pace, then I prefer to see 9 raid bosses split to fractal encounters, than 1 fractal with 2-3 bosses per expansion.

[Thank you for the feedback and discussion, it appears this thread continues to go off track, it is now closed.]