Guild Wars 2

im trying to finihs twilight arbor. i have story, leurent and spider done (3/4).

Aether isnt part of the tyria dungeons, so which path am i missing to complete.. please :-)

Aetherpath is counted towards Twilight Arbor completion even if it has its own achievement category.

You need Aetherpath, which is imo the best dungeon ever in gw2, the only one that’s fun and challenging to go with a group of friends

Elrey.5472:

You need Aetherpath, which is imo the best dungeon ever in gw2, the only one that’s fun and challenging to go with a group of friends

What is specifically challenging about it? None of the bosses are hard and the puzzles are more annoying than they are difficult.

hybrid.5027:

Elrey.5472:

You need Aetherpath, which is imo the best dungeon ever in gw2, the only one that’s fun and challenging to go with a group of friends

What is specifically challenging about it? None of the bosses are hard and the puzzles are more annoying than they are difficult.

PuGing it.

hybrid.5027:

Elrey.5472:

You need Aetherpath, which is imo the best dungeon ever in gw2, the only one that’s fun and challenging to go with a group of friends

What is specifically challenging about it? None of the bosses are hard and the puzzles are more annoying than they are difficult.

It requires some form of strategy and coordination other that just stacking on the boss and spamming your #1 key. This is where pugs struggle because they’re so used to that as being the way to succeed just like in their open world farms.

Which bosses in other dungeons do you stack on and press 1 with nothing else?

hybrid.5027:

Which bosses in other dungeons do you stack on and press 1 with nothing else?

Every if you’re a nomad’s mace guardian. Oh yeah.

To be honest, I have to agree that Aetherpath is the best dungeon in this game. Without coordination, the puzzles will fail. Some bosses f. e. Slick n’ Sparki have unique mechanics. That’s personal taste I would say. I hate AC, some people like it!

These exploding holopirates are rly bad designed and annoying. Not hard, just annoying.
I do this path rly often, but these pirates are so….poorly made.

If you didn’t complete all TA paths before the Aetherpath was added you have to do that one as one of the four. It replaced the most annoying TA path imo. I don’t miss you Vevina and spider tree.

Norjena.5172:

These exploding holopirates are rly bad designed and annoying. Not hard, just annoying.

Not so much, only annoying if you melee them, since you need to dodge in the exact second they die. Just equip a bow and pew pew, u know.

hybrid.5027:

What is specifically challenging about it? None of the bosses are hard and the puzzles are more annoying than they are difficult.

As someone said, pugging it.

After 300+ runs i’ve done Aether in every possible way. Yeah the fights and puzzles are easy once you find a way to complete them easy, but i’m aiming here at the “i’ve never been there, will be a new experience” public. In that case Aether with 5 newbies that doesn’t know what to do is imo challenging.

About the fun, i like Clockheart fight, but only if the group doesn’t melee it, otherwise i’m bored. I like to spend 20 minutes killing him at range. What’s the challenge into that? Sometimes i don’t even hit him in 5 minutes because i am all the time rezzing the people around. I like that, i don’t want to kill him fast, I soloed it too many times, i like that all 4 newbies in the dungeon can kill the boss and stay alive while i just support them rezzing and randomly stopping tier 30 (and no, they don’t know what i’m doing xD).

I guess i’m a player that cares about stuff that most don’t. I play for fun. I don’t measure how much time or how much reward I will get. I’d still go to Aether daily even if there was no reward and takes 4 hours to complete it. Just my opinnion

You should check out this dungeon called Arah.

A real “play range if u´re skilled” post?…..no comment. Yeah i want to spend 5 minutes on each generator killing 2hits holograms 1 by 1……wtf….

And sure you are a fun player. Because all others don´t play for fun…i know, i love this kind of comment.

Norjena.5172:

A real “play range if u´re skilled” post?…..no comment. Yeah i want to spend 5 minutes on each generator killing 2hits holograms 1 by 1……wtf….

And sure you are a fun player. Because all others don´t play for fun…i know, i love this kind of comment.

I could be mis-reading but seems he said the exact opposite. I thought his suggestion more along the lines of, if you’re having trouble with the holopirates and dodging when they die, ranging may be easier for you. If you move to an area where the holopirates have to pass the generator before getting to you, it will be simple to kill them from range while they are next to the generator and you wont even need to dodge. This all being said I realize you said they are not difficult just annoying…so I suppose the advice was unnecessary for you.

Anyone who claims that aetherpath is the best dungeon makes me question their sanity. I get the impression they are just blinded by the shiny puzzles and newish content and overlook all the major design faults of the dungeon.

spoj.9672:

Anyone who claims that aetherpath is the best dungeon makes me question their sanity. I get the impression they are just blinded by the shiny puzzles and newish content and overlook all the major design faults of the dungeon.

I definitely can’t recall any time I’ve ever felt like doing Aetherpath before. Pretty sure I’ve done it like 6 times total and not once did I find it fun. I much preferred Vevina’s path and wished it was not replaced.

However at this point I don’t care anymore, as I wouldn’t do either these days anyways -.-

spoj.9672:

Anyone who claims that aetherpath is the best dungeon makes me question their sanity. I get the impression they are just blinded by the shiny puzzles and newish content and overlook all the major design faults of the dungeon.

What design faults are you referring to?

Unskippable cutscenes, unecessary timegates, excessively long dialogues, buggy hologram generator hitboxes, player count checks, puzzles that dont involve combat and just add tedious timegating upon replay. Its an explorable dungeon path. It should of been designed to be replayable and at the same time engaging while replaying. It shouldnt give any reason to cause irritation to players. Some people dont mind the puzzles and timegating but many do. Its current design suggests it was built to be played once as a story instance.

Ah. I had forgotten about the cutscenes and such that extend the time waiting around. Unfortunately it’s something that will probably not be resolved as they still do that in the living story instances.

I never found an issue with the puzzles themselves so long as they don’t glitch out. I’ve heard people claim that sometimes the hologram generators do not spawn holograms preventing progress. Not every puzzle/challenge in dungeon has to be combat oriented. The bugs and such definitely should be fixed though.

Puzzles need to be engaging when placed in replayable content. That means they should not be locked behind timegates and ideally they should have a combat element. It is a dungeon after all. Kiting oozes and jumping on panels is a poor puzzle for a dungeon. I didnt even enjoy them the first time i did them. Dungeon puzzles should be things like cliffside hammer seals, imbued shaman bubble phase etc. The hologram generators and the enrage mechanic on the clockheart are actually decent ideas for combat puzzles. But those are the only commendable aspects of that path and the holos are ruined by being buggy (dying next to generator but not dmging it).

I wouldn’t really consider the Cliffside seals and the Imbued Shaman bubble phase as “puzzles”. They’re far too simple. I do consider the oozes and the electric room to be a puzzle, but it’s really tricky to get it right with PUGs (who usually tended to be first timers back when I still did Aetherpath.)

I don’t see where dungeons have to be strictly combat only though. There’s nothing wrong about having non-combat obstacles in dungeons. Besides, most of the combat in dungeons is solved by stacking in a corner to LoS mobs. Not very engaging even though it’s pretty efficient.

So any obstacle within a dungeon that doesn’t have combat elements to it is poor design? Bringing bombs to the NPC in CoF P2 is bad design because there’s no combat needed to complete it? The lasers in CoE are bad design because there’s no combat? If I remember correctly 2/3 of the obstacles in the reactor fractal don’t require combat. Dolphin or orb part of the aquatic fractal doesn’t require combat. Doing the beginning of the swamp fractal doesn’t require combat. I’m sure there are many more.

The point is that there already exists many obstacles in fractals and dungeons that do not require combat to get through. Are those all poorly designed? If not, what makes them different than the obstacles in the Aetherblade path?

I do agree with most of what you’re saying about time gates, unskippable dialogue, and the need for more challenge. The only part that I disagree with is that it must be combat oriented and anything other than that is poor design.

The difference between those examples and the ones in aetherpath is that dolphin and bombs do not slow you down. Yes they add extra time due to you having to move places to get them done. But you have the freedom to do them fast or slow. The aetherpath puzzles seem to force extra timegating on you which just makes things worse when you already experience countless timegates from cutscenes and dialogues. I feel non combat puzzles should be in jumping puzzles not dungeons. People dont do dungeons for puzzles. The only non combat puzzles i dont mind are ones like TAFU’s bee corridor. It doesnt slow you down if you know what you are doing. So its not going to cause irritation but it still makes you pay attention.

spoj.9672:

People dont do dungeons for puzzles. The only non combat puzzles i dont mind are ones like TAFU’s bee corridor. It doesnt slow you down if you know what you are doing.

But Aetherpath puzzles slow don’t slow you down much if you have a full team of people who know what they’re doing. And that’s not really different from the dredge puzzles (especially the new version of the flamethrowers). Aetherpath puzzles do take a little longer, but on one of them, to a large extent the extra time is actually a matter of making sure that you don’t suck at combat—you need enough coordinated cc/dps/reflects/whatever to keep the oozes alive.

The floor is definitely different, just timing and patterns, and I can see how if you don’t like that kind of content, you wouldn’t enjoy it. But that’s basically the bees—timing and patterns. It’s just more of it, and you need more people to do it. And I don’t think that not liking this is really a matter of what belongs in dungeons. I mean, I wouldn’t want a dungeon that’s nothing but puzzles, but I actually like aetherpath more because it has a couple puzzles to break things up (but which don’t take much time if everyone is doing them correctly).

The unskippable cutscenes and dialogue are complete kitten, though.

I’d love the day that people stop measuring dungeons on “how much time I lose in this room” thoughs.

Norjena.5172:

A real “play range if u´re skilled” post?…..no comment. Yeah i want to spend 5 minutes on each generator killing 2hits holograms 1 by 1……wtf….
And sure you are a fun player. Because all others don´t play for fun…i know, i love this kind of comment.

As Infamous Darkness said, my comment was: Melee if you want, but learn how to dodge. Otherwise range them from a safe position to avoid deads due to unskillful playgame.

That said, most people complete dungeons like it was a job, because they are “forced” to farm tokens for their skins/weapons/legendaries. But how many do it just for fun despite the reward? That’s the real question.

Some of the players in this thread are known speedrunners and doesn’t care about tokens, but they care on how fast it takes to complete the dungeons. That’s your own definition of fun? cool for me, I don’t have problems on what you do to have fun. I’m just explaining how I (or other players) get fun and not trying to burn down your own definition of fun, which seems what some of you are trying to do. This is an issue with the community that i’ve seen along the years i’ve been in GW2, this attacks are the result of toxic elitism, so let me remember you something.

• Nobody decides which is the best dungeon. Everyone has their own taste and you should be aware of it. Saying Aetherpath is not a good dungeon is as stupid as saying that nobody likes the colour Orange. There will be always people that does, either u like or not. Period.
• Criticism against the players that like X instead of Y is not good. It eventually can lead into the gaming racism. Just because someone is different, you shouldn’t try to manipulate their thoughs and make him “accept” your own taste or choices. If someone likes X and you don’t, then ignore it. Don’t attack that person. Freedom of choice, you know.
• Giving your own personal opinnion is something good. It lets people research and manage their own thoughs about it. As example: If you say that clockhear is faster and easier on melee, say it. Someone that always killed him ranged will try to kill him melee, probably complete it faster and easier, but if then he decides to go back and keeps ranging it because he find the fight more fun don’t be toxic and tell him that he doesn’t know how to play. He made his choice, and you have no power over that.

TL;DR – We are all different, we all make choices, don’t force others to accept your own choices.

I wouldnt mind losing time on those puzzles if they were actually engaging and not tedious and irritating especially when repeated. This is a design problem that anet seem to be running into a lot. The aetherblade fractal and molten facility fractal are no different in this regard.

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt mind losing time on those puzzles if they were actually engaging and not tedious and irritating especially when repeated. This is a design problem that anet seem to be running into a lot. The aetherblade fractal and molten facility fractal are no different in this regard.

For you, it’s.
For me it’s a really good design and not the usual “just hit stuff” old pattern.

Is not a design problem, it just doesn’t suit your taste and seems that you are selfish enough to not tolerate other people’s tastes.

I didn’t want to get into that kind of discussion, but Spoj, you Sir are wrong.

Aetherpath is my favorite path. It’s the closest thing to whatever passes as a dungeon in other games. The cutscene issue is irritating, and that first puzzle/boss can be a real pugbuster. And it gives a terrible reward. It’s awful in many ways, but it comes off as a legitimate dungeon (as opposed to the general freak show we see now.) The bosses have decent mechanics. It can still be blown through by the excellent and/or prepared group. But it is quite different from the other ones. I have a feeling part of the cutscene problems have to do with it being a “live cutscene”. If that has dialogue, I don’t think it can be skipped, because if you could, the dialogue would keep running. The warmaster cutscene later on can be “skipped,” but you still have to listen to the dialogue before anything happens.

Elrey.5472:

spoj.9672:

I wouldnt mind losing time on those puzzles if they were actually engaging and not tedious and irritating especially when repeated. This is a design problem that anet seem to be running into a lot. The aetherblade fractal and molten facility fractal are no different in this regard.

For you, it’s.
For me it’s a really good design and not the usual “just hit stuff” old pattern.

Is not a design problem, it just doesn’t suit your taste and seems that you are selfish enough to not tolerate other people’s tastes.

I didn’t want to get into that kind of discussion, but Spoj, you Sir are wrong.

Im not wrong. You just have more tolerance for these puzzles than many people. Calling someones opinion wrong is just childish. The puzzles dont have to be radically different to make them bearable for someone like me. I guarantee you would enjoy them more if they were more engaging. So why are you actively defending them and implying they are perfect? You should be encouraging them to improve. Not just for your own enjoyment but also for the overall popularity of the content.

And I know you agree with me on this. Because you actually agreed with my revised suggestions for aetherpath puzzle changes in the TA sticky thread. So maybe you should take a bit more of an objective stance and stop blindly defending the dungeon. Everyone benefits from improvements, noone benefits from a standstill.

Also as a side note. If content is widely unpopular then it stands to reason that the problem is the design. You cant please everyone. But you should aim to please the majority (especially the majority the content is tailored for) and you should certainly avoid irritating large groups of players. Anet missed the mark on aetherpath. Which is shown by its lack of popularity.

Ayrilana.1396:

It requires some form of strategy and coordination other that just stacking on the boss and spamming your #1 key.

Again with this story?

Ohai, jooooe. I logged randomly in archeage but nat says he never sees you online? Wut’s wrong with you?

Ayrilana.1396:

So any obstacle within a dungeon that doesn’t have combat elements to it is poor design?

It all depends on whether its tedious and/or annoying.

Bringing bombs to the NPC in CoF P2 is bad design because there’s no combat needed to complete it?

Nope, that is a good puzzle. Here is why: disorganized groups with no communication finish it with 35 seconds left on the timer. Organized groups with good communication can finish it with 70 seconds left on the timer. The better you are the faster the puzzle can be completed. Unlike the electric floor puzzle, which takes the same amount of time no matter how many times you’ve experienced it.

The lasers in CoE are bad design because there’s no combat?

The lasers would be an awesome puzzle if there was some punishment for failure. As it is the puzzle is just a time gate and bad design.

If I remember correctly 2/3 of the obstacles in the reactor fractal don’t require combat.

Most groups prefer any third tier fractal to that one.

Dolphin or orb part of the aquatic fractal doesn’t require combat.

No artificial time gate.

Doing the beginning of the swamp fractal doesn’t require combat. I’m sure there are many more.

No artificial time gate.

spoj the champ. Well freakin’ said@@@

deSade.9437:

Ayrilana.1396:

It requires some form of strategy and coordination other that just stacking on the boss and spamming your #1 key.

Again with this story?

Ohai, jooooe. I logged randomly in archeage but nat says he never sees you online? Wut’s wrong with you?

Look at all of those speed runs videos. Notice that one thing they have in common is that they all stack. I just want to clarify that I am in no way against stacking as I actually prefer it to the clusterkitten that can happen when people don’t.

I brought stacking up because I don’t see that very engaging and it’s used for a lot of the trash mobs and bosses for good reason. How can some puzzles be deemed not engaging yet some people want more combat puzzles where you’re essentially just stacking like we all usually do?

Purple Miku.7032:

spoj the champ. Well freakin’ said@@@

Spoj is awsum. I guess I’ll be forced to be more active in archeage if I want to hear his sexy voice again.

hybrid.5027:

Ayrilana.1396:

So any obstacle within a dungeon that doesn’t have combat elements to it is poor design?

It all depends on whether its tedious and/or annoying.

Tedious is subjective. I’m sure just as many people would say combat oriented puzzles are tedious as there would be for the non combat ones.

hybrid.5027:

Bringing bombs to the NPC in CoF P2 is bad design because there’s no combat needed to complete it?

Nope, that is a good puzzle. Here is why: disorganized groups with no communication finish it with 35 seconds left on the timer. Organized groups with good communication can finish it with 70 seconds left on the timer. The better you are the faster the puzzle can be completed. Unlike the electric floor puzzle, which takes the same amount of time no matter how many times you’ve experienced it.

Ok. So it’s all about how quickly you can do a puzzle rather than the actual challenge. Gotcha.

So your criteria is that skilled, organized groups must be able to complete the puzzle faster than unskilled, disorganized groups? Well just about every puzzle I listed fits that description along with those in the Aetherblade path.

By the way, there is a wide variability with the electric floor puzzle between skilled, coordinated groups and those that are the opposite. Do a pug run and tell me you finish that puzzle in the same amount of time as your speed run group.

hybrid.5027:

The lasers in CoE are bad design because there’s no combat?

The lasers would be an awesome puzzle if there was some punishment for failure. As it is the puzzle is just a time gate and bad design.

The dolphin path and orb path in the aquatic fractal don’t have any punishment for failure. If you fail, you just WP (well, respawn) and try again. No different than the laser hallway. So how is one good design and the other not when both don’t meet your criteria for not having a punishment for failure mechanic?

hybrid.5027:

If I remember correctly 2/3 of the obstacles in the reactor fractal don’t require combat.

Most groups prefer any third tier fractal to that one.

Your point? Most groups prefer swamp to aquatic and you stated that aquatic puzzles are good design.

hybrid.5027:

Dolphin or orb part of the aquatic fractal doesn’t require combat.

No artificial time gate.

None of the puzzles I listed had a time-gate other than the time it takes to do them which is dither the same amount of less.

hybrid.5027:

Doing the beginning of the swamp fractal doesn’t require combat. I’m sure there are many more.

No artificial time gate.

Same as above.

deSade.9437:

Purple Miku.7032:

spoj the champ. Well freakin’ said@@@

Spoj is awsum. I guess I’ll be forced to be more active in archeage if I want to hear his sexy voice again.

I havent really been playing it other than logging in to harvest my farm each day. So you prob wont catch me very easily as i only play for a bit before dinner atm. Kind of weird that i pretty much dont play any games atm. x)

I want to spank you so bad.
Ugh.
Come back to gw1 then!
I’d actually be curious to try out the multiplayer of mass effect, but… I’m not sure how it’s supposed to work.

Ayrilana.1396:

So any obstacle within a dungeon that doesn’t have combat elements to it is poor design?

The difference between the puzzles hybrid listed and aether puzzles is quite simple. The aether puzzles slow you down and theres no way to really counter that. This is not bad because it hurts speed runners. Its bad because it is forcing extra timegates on people who have already completed it. Excessive timegating causes irritation for most players not just speed runners.

The oozes move a set slow speed which makes kiting very slow and there is no way to be faster than that set time. You cant speed them up in anyway which makes strategy approach for the puzzle static. Its either be slow or even slower if you fail. If we could use cc to push them to the other side then I would actually say thats a huge improvement. You could even give them defiant stacks to make it harder for groups to full cc them across. With the electric room you have to wait for the patterns to move and there is also waiting for each phase and the final switch to activate.

The only limiting factor in many other puzzles is your own characters movement speed. Which can be boosted with the use of skills and coordination. The puzzles are also more open which allows the use of portal tricks etc. The aether puzzles force you to complete them in the exact same set way everytime. Whereas other puzzles are a bit more free. Which concept do you think is better for repeatable puzzles? Restricted or free?

Ayrilana.1396:

Tedious is subjective. I’m sure just as many people would say combat oriented puzzles are tedious as there would be for the non combat ones.

Yeah those people don’t even like dungeons though, so who cares about their opinion when dungeons are the topic?

Ok. So it’s all about how quickly you can do a puzzle rather than the actual challenge. Gotcha.

No, it’s all about technique and improvement and refinement producing faster and more efficient methods. The bomb puzzle presents almost limitless ability for good players to refine their run and improve. The garbage aetherpath puzzles present no such opportunity since they are time gates. The only opportunity you have is “not failing it.” Once you can escort the oozes every time on the first time you have mastered the puzzle and there is no further method for improvement. The puzzle is cheap and stupid and has been solved. The CoF2 bomb puzzle has not, as far as I am concerned, been solved. The fastest CoF2 bomb run possible has not been done yet. If you dont see the difference you’re choosing not to.

So your criteria is that skilled, organized groups must be able to complete the puzzle faster than unskilled, disorganized groups? Well just about every puzzle I listed fits that description along with those in the Aetherblade path.

Nope, as I hinted above, the Aetherpath puzzles are binary. did you succeed on the first try without problems? congrats you did it as fast as its possible to do. There is no further room for refinement or improvement. they are pass/fail puzzles. dumb. simple. tedious.

By the way, there is a wide variability with the electric floor puzzle between skilled, coordinated groups and those that are the opposite. Do a pug run and tell me you finish that puzzle in the same amount of time as your speed run group.

it’s a pass fail puzzle. It can only ever be done so fast. It can never be improved faster than “doing it correctly the first time.” that means it has minimal replayability and presents no interesting qualities.

The dolphin path and orb path in the aquatic fractal don’t have any punishment for failure. If you fail, you just WP (well, respawn) and try again. No different than the laser hallway. So how is one good design and the other not when both don’t meet your criteria for not having a punishment for failure mechanic?

In the Dolphin puzzle good players can do it significantly faster than slower ones. The more times you do it the faster that it can be done. The punishment mechanism is irrelevant for this particular puzzle since the puzzle itself is more about efficiency than a pass/fail mechanic.

hybrid.5027:

If I remember correctly 2/3 of the obstacles in the reactor fractal don’t require combat.

Most groups prefer any third tier fractal to that one.

Your point? Most groups prefer swamp to aquatic and you stated that aquatic puzzles are good design.

We are presented with our choice of which fractal to start with. People choose the least tedious one. My point was that you cite the Reactor fractal as an example of good design when it’s the least popular third fractal. Its failure (irrelevant to this conversation) was that it is laid out so that we should be able to split up the group and do multiple objectives simultaneously, but the objectives are designed so that they are explicitly not solo-able other than the heat room.

None of the puzzles I listed had a time-gate other than the time it takes to do them which is dither the same amount of less.

You must not understand the definition of a time gate. The Ooze puzzle can never be done faster than the time it takes the ooze to walk across. The electric floor puzzle is even worse in that regard because it has built in scripting that limits how fast the puzzle can be completed. Again compared to the bomb room in cof2, the electric floor puzzle will take the same amount of time a year from now that it takes now. The cof2 bomb puzzle will be significantly faster for the best teams a year from now because they will practice it more and be faster.

spoj.9672:

Ayrilana.1396:

So any obstacle within a dungeon that doesn’t have combat elements to it is poor design?

The difference between the puzzles hybrid listed and aether puzzles is quite simple. The aether puzzles slow you down and theres no way to really counter that. This is not bad because it hurts speed runners. Its bad because it is forcing extra timegates on people who have already completed it. Excessive timegating causes irritation for most players not just speed runners.

The oozes move a set slow speed which makes kiting very slow and there is no way to be faster than that set time. You cant speed them up in anyway which makes strategy approach for the puzzle static. Its either be slow or even slower if you fail. If we could use cc to push them to the other side then I would actually say thats a huge improvement. You could even give them defiant stacks to make it harder for groups to full cc them across. With the electric room you have to wait for the patterns to move and there is also waiting for each phase and the final switch to activate.

The only limiting factor in many other puzzles is your own characters movement speed. Which can be boosted with the use of skills and coordination. The puzzles are also more open which allows the use of portal tricks etc. The aether puzzles force you to complete them in the exact same set way everytime. Whereas other puzzles are a bit more free. Which concept do you think is better for repeatable puzzles? Restricted or free?

You just described Ascalonian Catacumbs burrows… where a group of Pugs can do same as fast as a group of Experience players. That puzzle is based only in DPS and that’s bad design. Aether ones are well-designed because as example the ooze font puzzle can be done (as usual to me) with 4 players in just 20 seconds, or 10 minutes with an experience group. Result: Experienced players get rewarded and NOT punished on replayable content. 20 seconds vs 10 minutes seems to me like a good adventage, not like AC burrows.

That’s just an example. Btw the electric floor room shares the same example. If you are fast enough and experienced you can activate all 4 platforms in the very first second of activation timer, which leads to a 40 seconds room if done right. A group of unexperienced players might as well need 5-10 minutes and they might die multiple times in the process.

Learning is a good design mechanic. Once you learnt you can reduce the timers to it’s minimun while others struggle there for hours. Yet you guys still complain? I’m starting to think that Aetherpath is just an excuse to rant over at Anet for the lack of love the other dungeons did get in comparison with this one.

As someone said before, this dungeon actually feels like a dungeon, not wandering around in a random place where you don’t know where to go next (i had really bad newbie experiences in ascalonian or caudecus because of this very reason).
Aether’s design is as simple as: You see the exit door, open it. It doesn’t matter if you need to kill an enemy, complete a puzzle or defend mickey mouse, your goal is to open next door, same as every dungeon in every other proper mmo ever. And then, at the end, if you want, explore the dungeon as an explorable place. Well design overall, no matter how I look at it.
The only valid point on what you guys said is that cutscenes should be skippable.

You missed my point again. Theres only one way to complete those puzzles. Theres no freedom to create interesting tactics to solve the puzzle in new ways. They were designed to be completed in one specific way and thats it. AC burrows are exactly the same and they have even worse design than the aether puzzles (especially lovers crypt burrows). Its lazy design.

Ive also said countless times i could actually really enjoy aetherpath if they fixed the issues and reduced the tedium of the puzzles. The rest of the dungeon is pretty well designed. I have no complaints about that. They havent even made cutscenes skippable. Why? Its such a simple change. I cant ignore the issues sadly and its the same for many others.

Ill repeat my question. Maybe you will answer it this time. Which concept do you think is better for repeatable puzzles? Restricted or free?

If i understood this right, the perfect scenario for “free” would be a puzzle that could be completed in different ways.
However the players will always choose the easier one, and that’s already happening. It applies to the Ooze Font. Players choose to do it in 20 seconds aggroing eles away instead of defending both oozes all the time (which is also possible and works fine). You can also choose to OutDPS the elementals, or can choose to reflect projectiles with Feedback or use Walls from Guardians/Thiefs.

I don’t see “only one” way to complete it, I listed 4 in a few seconds. The strat to follow can be adapted to the group capabilities and suceed in different ways. Yet people always choose the easier way, hence it will eventually force a “restricted” way to complete the puzzle once it become as popular a AC runs.

That’s why my answer it’s the same as always: Ooze font is a good concept for repeatable content.

Multiple ways of defending the ooze. Only one way to kite them. No way to speed them up. Those strategies are minor variations of the exact same thing. If you could effect the oozes in some way it would open up a whole new range of possibilities. And also allow coordinated groups to dramatically speed up the puzzle.

A dungeon doesn’t need to be solo/speedrun friendly to be enjoyable as you seem to think.

Aetherpath is a great dungeon path and is definitely the most well made one IMO. But oh wait, you can’t run through it in 3 minutes so obviously it sucks.

Ergh its like talking to brick walls. You guys clearly cant read. Im done.

spoj.9672:

Ergh its like talking to brick walls. You guys clearly cant read. Im done.

Disagreeing is not the same as not reading.

A lot of the differences that are being discussed I don’t really see as differences. I’m also getting the idea that unless a puzzle is designed for speed runners, it’s poor design. I do agree with time-gates such as non-skippable cutscenes/dialogue being an issue.

After reading all of the posts it seems blatantly obvious to me that many of you are just sugarcoating this statement: “I like it so it’s fine.”

Can’t really blame him for ragequitting. You all know that the dungeon isn’t perfect and could most certainly be improved in a variety of ways. -.-

I’ll try to explain what I think someone else is saying again

Spoj is basically saying the number of variables in this particular puzzle are disappointing because the greater number of variables the greater number of ways your skills can interact with them, such as if they had made the oozes some kind of orange mob that could be effected by both team members boons but could also be damage by them. Or if they had left it a red mob but made it vulnerable to knockbacks so your team could golf punt it all the way into the goal (sorry sports are not my forte). Instead all variables were removed with the ooze (other than immobilize) it cant be knocked forward or sped up it can only be slowed down, so in the end it becomes not can you maximize speed but can you minimize kitten ups…that is my guess at what spoj is trying to say.

It’s not about the lack of understanding or at least it isn’t for me. I know exactly what’s he’s saying. I just don’t agree with it. This is most likely something that we will never agree on.

He’s viewing the dungeon from a speed runner perspective and that the only good design of a puzzle is one that can be done fast. How challenging it is or how much coordination it requires is irrelvant. He’s done dungeons so often in his speed run groups that he likely doesn’t remember what it’s like to do them with pugs. There’s more to how well a puzzle is designed than how quickly you can get it done or the number of ways it can be done.