Guild Wars 2

Cormac.3871:

DonQuack.9025:

This is assuming things.
CS would look and see who replaced the people instance owner kicked. At end kick last 3 and replace with 3 guildies/ people on friends list mighty suspicious. Kick various parts of dungeon and relist party standards.

doesnt really need to be “policed”. A person who consistently kicks at end will be known. A person who kicks for “high standards” shouldnt be given the chance as people should leave before kickage.

also start your own groups :/

Maybe I’m not making myself clear about the high standards thing,

Say an instance owner the preserves the right to kick a bear ow on sight. Or doesn’t like people who use the “wrong” tactic on a certain boss. Or will kick someone who mentions they have a non-meta build. I think somebody who owns instances with these sorts of attitudes will end up kicking a lot of people. I don’t think many of these people will pre-emptively drop out.

As for starting your own groups, well that may be sound advice for 20% of people, but that leaves the majority of players in a riskier system than is in place currently.

In the end no one would associate with such leaders, as they would acquire a bad reputation over time.

Cormac.3871:

DonQuack.9025:

This is assuming things.
CS would look and see who replaced the people instance owner kicked. At end kick last 3 and replace with 3 guildies/ people on friends list mighty suspicious. Kick various parts of dungeon and relist party standards.

doesnt really need to be “policed”. A person who consistently kicks at end will be known. A person who kicks for “high standards” shouldnt be given the chance as people should leave before kickage.

also start your own groups :/

Maybe I’m not making myself clear about the high standards thing,

Say an instance owner the preserves the right to kick a bear ow on sight. Or doesn’t like people who use the “wrong” tactic on a certain boss. Or will kick someone who mentions they have a non-meta build. I think somebody who owns instances with these sorts of attitudes will end up kicking a lot of people. I don’t think many of these people will pre-emptively drop out.

As for starting your own groups, well that may be sound advice for 20% of people, but that leaves the majority of players in a riskier system than is in place currently.

If the block feature actually worked then they’d only be a problem once to anyone that didn’t like them. But, either way you can friends list them and simply avoid them as well.

As far as dev enforcement of lfg abuse. if the guy kicks out half the group at the final boss the devs can see that . Could there be reasons? yes. I think this is where Chris’s comments came in, while the first time might just be concidence, heck the second or third might as well, but if he’s consistently reported for lfg abuse and consistently shown to kick people late into runs, then that’d be a habitual lfg abuser.

And that’s doable right now, but far easier, in that case you’d have to start the group, if people are really stressed about their PUGing they can start groups, but i doubt there’d be that many people that paranoid in a system where you have to take responsibility for your actions, I know it wasn’t an issue in the game I played where that system existed.

Something I already stated somewhere else :

Simple solutions how the system should be (or with minor tweek) :

• There is a group leader and he can’t be kicked
• The group leader can give leadership to someone else
• Group leader can leave the instance and it won’t close.
• If he leaves the group, the leadership will go the 2nd guy who entered the group. The instance won’t close in the process.
• Every one can invite, not only the leader.

Now, for the vote system, when the leader create the group he could chose between different kick option and IT WOULD HAVE TO BE CLEAR IN THE LFG TOOL (so a revamp of the lfg tool please?) :

• 2 vote kick (default option, as it is now. Rember leader can’t be kick)
• No vote kick
• Leader only can kick

So when you would join a party, you would know what you get yourself into and agree to what it can exposes you to. Altho this wouldn’t excuse jerks that kick people to steal instances, grief some one, or to kick some one to let a guildy join the group.

Other random additions that could be added but I’m not necessarily fond of :

• Leader can set if other people can invite or not
• There is a message to know who invited another person
• Have other group member and the guy who got kicked know who voted for it.

Ah how about adding. Leader must approve invites and/or joins. It would clear up a bit of oddities. Instead of current insta join it pops up a request where leader can see level and prof.

DonQuack.9025:

Ah how about adding. Leader must approve invites and/or joins. It would clear up a bit of oddities. Instead of current insta join it pops up a request where leader can see level and prof.

THIS!!!!

I’ve been saying that for a while now, while it wouldn’t fix everything it’d be a nice step and I’d hope it wouldn’t be too difficult for the coding/dev team to implement. I mean it alreadyw orks that way if I were to /join a friend.

EDIT: the kitten was “hard” “on” while I get it… LOL I didn’t mean that at all!

To be fair I most likely read it from one of your posts

FenrirSlakt.3692:

In the end no one would associate with such leaders, as they would acquire a bad reputation over time.

Really? In a game as big as GW2 where you aren’t allowed to mention names on the forums how many times do you think someone would have to perform kicks before a majority of dungeon runners knew about him?

As far as I’m concerned changing the system to one where the leader can kick on a whim is going to create far more problems than it solves. The system would be great for dungeon sellers, but terrible for 80% of people who run paths normally. Remember that the reason old system kicked everyone when the party leader kicked was because there were too many instances of the party leader leaving the party and then invitin guildies to join. For the life of me I can’t see why people don’t think it will be a problem this time around.

I think its because majority of people of who support it and are on the forums arent kittens and arent afraid to make their own groups.

If at the end of the day all the people who get kicked and hate getting kicked made their own groups and didnt kick there would be no problem. I am “not” a dungeon seller also and I fully support the proposed system. I even support the optional system where you can make yourself god or you can leave it as crap as it is now for those who enjoy it.

did i mention make your own group, PHYW, kick people who dont adhere. Win?

also I didnt realise thats the reason the old system was that way. I just though arenanet was kitten at making proper instances.

I’ve met a lot of good people in this game. I’ve met quite a few bad ones as well. No more bad than any game though, the same general greifing trolling scum that every online activity will see.

I saw just as many in EQ which used the leader system, yet I really didn’t have issues there.

That’s why I have no fear of bad leaders, sure it’ll happen sometimes but I have no problem leaving those groups as it’d be apparent pretty quickly. And, in my experience those types of players are usually the type to join something ongoing and try to throw a wrench in it rather than start something up with bad intentions.

Again I’ll say I had 15 years of experience under the leader system and really no notable bad memories, some bad leaders that I left a few groups because of but that’s it. In the last 3-4 years though I’ve played under the vote kick system and my god the knee jerk reaction kicks I’ve seen are just horrible. I hate it, even if it’s a legitimate reason I HATE kicking people, yet this system has bread people to just kick for the most senseless of reasons. This is something I even see in people I call friends, they’re just so use to the game being this way they have lost all compassion. It truly makes me sad. Make a small mistake and you just might be kicked for it. Stack in a different yet acceptable stack spot? kick. Use a different weapon than what the group feels is right? kick. Just any number of reasons. It honestly pains me to see sometimes.

So maybe it is too far gone, maybe the community is just a cesspool of discontent at this point. But I’d like to hope that it can be better than that if the system didn’t promote that kind of action as much. And I think making people responsible for their actions does that. Making a leader be the guy “at fault” for it worked before, why not now. That’s my hope at least. But, again, maybe my initial assessment of GW2 being the worst community I’ve seen is correct. I’d like to say that there are a lot of people in game and in this dungeon forum that have done their best to prove me wrong.

Cormac.3871:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

In the end no one would associate with such leaders, as they would acquire a bad reputation over time.

Really? In a game as big as GW2 where you aren’t allowed to mention names on the forums how many times do you think someone would have to perform kicks before a majority of dungeon runners knew about him?

Not as many as random people have performed so far.

Currently, the only solution our beloved devs have proposed has been “report them and we’ll ban them”.
Wouldn’t this solution work much better on one particular player repeating the same offense than it currently does on two people? In fact, if one person is flagged as the Party Leader, it would be so much easier to keep track on whatever misbehaviour this leader happens to exhibit.

I played LOTRO for about 5 years and SWTOR for about 2 years – boths MMOs with party/raid leader system. Never seen any complains in game or on forums about being kicked or leader role being abused.

I can see where GW2 is coming from (democracy etc) but it doesnt work on live servers. In fact GW2 parties are ruled by trolls – and this should be changed. Hardly any player likes the current system. Please change it and introduce party leaders

The heart of this issue is more social then technical. There will always be trolls and grievers. No technical changes or improvements will eradicate them. Fact. But atleast we can make it harder for them.

Kick vote requirement up to 3 people for full party and 4 members is good.
-It gives more control and security to the majority of the group.
-It will prevent a pair of trolls from grieving 3 decent players i.e hijacking dungeon groups.
-It will force more trolls to work together in order to grieve people successfully.

An absolute party leader or leadership system, while I can agree that it will have obvious benefits, has one fatal flaw which renders it absolutely useless – Should a troll take absolute leadership of a random party, the rest of the group then has little to no power to prevent grieving. The last thing we need is to give trolls more tools to abuse.

But, you would have recourse against a trollish greifing party leader. If he did something like kicked you at the end for no reason, report ofr LFG abuse, if it’s something he’s repeatedly reported for surely there will be some action, right gaile?chris?

Jerus.4350:

But, you would have recourse against a trollish greifing party leader. If he did something like kicked you at the end for no reason, report ofr LFG abuse, if it’s something he’s repeatedly reported for surely there will be some action, right gaile?chris?

Nevermind.
I liked gw1 system.

I am hoping that any changes in the party system really should include improving the Block/Ignore functionality, please.

As already suggested, but having the party leader be unable to be kicked, must approve those you join, and is the final say on a kick regardless of majority, would be the best way to stop dungeon/party griefers.

deSade.9437:

Jerus.4350:

But, you would have recourse against a trollish greifing party leader. If he did something like kicked you at the end for no reason, report ofr LFG abuse, if it’s something he’s repeatedly reported for surely there will be some action, right gaile?chris?

Nevermind.
I liked gw1 system.

what was the gw1 system again? I never played it much.

1 man lead iirc

Currently there is no way to tell who exactly kicked you from the group. Even if you report all 4 other people from your group – who is gonna get punished? The one who started vote kick? or the one who seconded? There is literally no way for GMs to get a proof of bad intentions unless some sort of conversation in party chat took place which is hardly the case.

On the contrary in you have the party leader – he is the one responsible. Thats why in MMOs with party leaders ppl hardly abuse that role. In GW2 there is no personal responsibility for any sort of action taken in party – thats why everyone feels do to whatever they want.

^^^^^^^^ EXACTLY

I think an ideal system would work something like this:

A. Person who posts the LFG is the party leader.

B. Party Leader cannot be kicked except by 4 votes.

C. Party Leader can kick anyone, with a reason prompt. Reasons are “AFK”, “Party Abuse”, and “Other”.

C1. If you select “Party Abuse”, it will create a support ticket for ArenaNet to investigate. If it turns out they were not engaged in abuse you will get a suspension from the LFG tool. If they are engaged in party abuse, then they will get the suspension. Repeated offenses will result in longer LFG tool suspensions or game suspensions.

C2. If you select “Other”, the kicked player will no longer be able to see or join your LFG postings or party for 1 week. If you kick the same person a total of 6 times they will be permanently blocked from ever seeing or joining your LFG listings.

C3. “AFK” is only available if the player is actually away from keyboard (i.e. no inputs received in the previous x minutes).

D. Any player can initiate a vote kick against any other player. Party Leader requires 4 votes to remove while all other players require majority vote to kick.

I think this system would make griefing (by either side) much more difficult to do.

how exactly would arenanet see this party abuse?

DonQuack.9025:

how exactly would arenanet see this party abuse?

Chat logs. The same way that they see it now.

If you don’t think there is enough evidence to report them for abuse, then use Other (buying you a week without them). After enough of those you’ll NEVER see them again anyway so it achieves the same goal.

There was a reason why many mmos used the 1 party leader system.
Yeah, democracy and communism and all good, but it DOESN’T WORK.

mtpelion.4562:

DonQuack.9025:

how exactly would arenanet see this party abuse?

Chat logs. The same way that they see it now.

If you don’t think there is enough evidence to report them for abuse, then use Other (buying you a week without them). After enough of those you’ll NEVER see them again anyway so it achieves the same goal.

So what you are saying is party abuse only happens in chat? If it happens in chat then it is “verbal abuse” if anything they should “fix” the block tool do what your “other” does instead of making a new system for it.

Also I think that system would make it much harder to remove anyone period.

DonQuack.9025:

So what you are saying is party abuse only happens in chat? If it happens in chat then it is “verbal abuse” if anything they should “fix” the block tool do what your “other” does instead of making a new system for it.

Also I think that system would make it much harder to remove anyone period.

I don’t know the extent of their data logs, but I do know that chat logs are available.

The problem with “party abuse” is two-fold:
1. It is not clearly defined.
2. Other than what is entered in the chat logs, there is most likely NO way to prove it.

That’s why my “Other” category exists… for getting rid of people who you think are abusing your party in some way, but who may not meet ArenaNet’s definition of abusers (or who are engaged in some form of “abuse” that isn’t provable such as “playing the wrong way” or “ignoring directions”).

My system would be easier for the party and leader to remove someone while simultaneously creating a separation between players where one party does not want to play with the other party.

The only reason I opted for the “Other” method versus the “Block” method was to create a degree of block system (maybe he didn’t read your LFG description so you don’t want him in your group right now, but don’t want to permanently prevent him from joining you at some point in the future). I absolutely think that anyone who you choose to “block” should also be prevented from seeing or joining your LFG postings.

Ah i see ty for clarification <3

In my opinion the best option is that a kick will require the approval of 4 party members (in a full party run) and the kicked player will have the ability to see who initiated the kick via game chat.
sometimes a player is making a mistake and get kicked for it, i think it will be nice to give him/her an address for questions, i don’t think that kickers should be able to hide behind a vail of anonymity.

So Gaile’s post was specifically about a three vote system, and it looks like most of the replies are of the opinion that it wouldn’t be enough.

We appreciate that ANet is listening. Would anyone on the red side of the fence care to involve themselves in the discussion and let us know if our suggestions seem reasonable or not? I think that would be greatly appreciated.

And please — don’t infract this. I’m just trying to start a conversation between the devs and the players, not start any bullkibbeh.

Now, I hope they have means to change the system without having to start from scratch. Otherwise we might have to wait until the next feature patch.

Rhinala.1739:

In my opinion the best option is that a kick will require the approval of 4 party members (in a full party run) and the kicked player will have the ability to see who initiated the kick via game chat.
sometimes a player is making a mistake and get kicked for it, i think it will be nice to give him/her an address for questions, i don’t think that kickers should be able to hide behind a vail of anonymity.

4 seems too much honestly. How would anyone get kicked? as long as 2 people join no one can get kicked with that.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Now, I hope they have means to change the system without having to start from scratch. Otherwise we might have to wait until the next feature patch.

If we’re lucky. So far it seems they’ve started listening, but this is far from a discussion. Feels more like nodding and smiling while their thoughts are elsewhere.

ESO just released a ton of info about what they’re developing far, far down the road. Food for thought.

And I have a 10 minute flood control timer (and temp ban…) from similarly trying to start a discussion earlier. Healthy customer relations FTW, just refuse to talk.

dlonie.6547:

ESO just released a ton of info about what they’re developing far, far down the road. Food for thought.

We shall see if that bites them in the tushie. mmo players are a finicky bunch.

mtpelion.4562:

I think an ideal system would work something like this:

A. Person who posts the LFG is the party leader.

B. Party Leader cannot be kicked except by 4 votes.

C. Party Leader can kick anyone, with a reason prompt. Reasons are “AFK”, “Party Abuse”, and “Other”.

C1. If you select “Party Abuse”, it will create a support ticket for ArenaNet to investigate. If it turns out they were not engaged in abuse you will get a suspension from the LFG tool. If they are engaged in party abuse, then they will get the suspension. Repeated offenses will result in longer LFG tool suspensions or game suspensions.

C2. If you select “Other”, the kicked player will no longer be able to see or join your LFG postings or party for 1 week. If you kick the same person a total of 6 times they will be permanently blocked from ever seeing or joining your LFG listings.

C3. “AFK” is only available if the player is actually away from keyboard (i.e. no inputs received in the previous x minutes).

D. Any player can initiate a vote kick against any other player. Party Leader requires 4 votes to remove while all other players require majority vote to kick.

I think this system would make griefing (by either side) much more difficult to do.

This! Just one more thing – if someone vote me to kick I wanna see somewhere (in chat for example) who create voting so I can add them to my own list of dumb ppl or send them skritt poop into mail:-)

Also there can be some option for dungeon sellers where you can mark your party as “solo run” or something and cant be kicked as party leader

Measure.6174:

This is just a general opinion of the vote kick system. I think it should be removed, or be more unanimous, as it is heavily abused. I see players kicked all the time for simply being sub-80, and I myself am tired of being vote kicked for no apparent reason. I think it detracts from the game in a significant way, and I think it is a convention that should not be upheld, along with many others that were rewritten in guild wars 2; especially considering the ease with which parties may be formed for dungeons. The lack of a vote kick system in Guild Wars 1 was phenomenal. Please remove or modify this system in a way that it does not have such a negative impact on ordinary ‘pick up group’ experiences. Thank you.

yea i agree, i got kicked plenty of times by grumpy people like at the end of the 4th fractal like righ before the end, i carried them all the way till the end and then they boot you like that i mean how lame is that…

i agree it needs to be changes cause it’s abused way too much

What I would like to see is an actual vote. Right now one person initiates the kick, another confirms, and there is no option for anyone else in the group to vote against the kick. If you don’t want them kicked you just have to wait and hope that no one else confirms before the timer runs out. There should be a check and an x, not only a check. If vote kicking waited for input from every other party member, it would work a lot better.

Hi everyone. I wrote a long and complex text to explain my thoughts, but who would have the time to read it anyway?

I´ll just suggest some solutions / ideas to help with the system of vote-kick:
- majority rule should really be implemented.
- we need a voting against the kick, not only supporting the kick
- the interface of the vote kick is way too bulky and should be transparent for attacks / aoe skills
- it would be better if you could hide or press “later” during a fight
- if a video interrupts the vote-kick, that guy can never be voted again (till end of dungeon)… you should be able to restart that voting every 5-10 mins (with a timer)
- you should never be able to vote-kick someone inside of animations / videos or after a disconnect (for 5 mins)
- you should be able to see who voted for the kick and who kicked you – and both names should be interactive to block or whisper them
- nice would be a “reason related vote-kick” menu – “not fulfilling the lfg title”, “wrong character class”, “being afk for too long”, “offline / disconnect” and “trolling / offensive” could be possible, which you will get as a statement after being kicked

Gaile Gray.6029:

Woljnir.7810:

Vote kick must exist. Too many people would abuse it by going afk or otherwise being a jerk on purpose. What they need to do is make it majority and require 3 votes. Whoever decided it would only take two probably should have thought about it a little harder xD.

I’m curious if the others in this thread also agree that 3 votes would make the system equally effective (for yes, it seems vote kick must exist, as Woljnir says) but perhaps less arbitrary.

Or would 3 bring a whole new set of challenges?

A system similar to Guild Wars 1 should work pretty well with a party leader who is responsible for inviting and kicking. Team leader should be able to be passed to another if desired.. If the party leader leaves, the second person in the party gets auto-promoted.

Maybe not necessarily 3 votes to kick but majority vote for parties smaller than 5.. Maybe these can be combined so Team Lead change can be forced with a majority vote (leader goes afk, remaining 3 want to invite someone else, etc) or kicks can be forced with a majority vote.

•Increased the party kick threshold from 40% to 50%.

From todays patch notes!!!! See? They do listen

Thank you!!!!!

wait wait wait im no math genius but

50% of 5 is 2.5 no? 50% of 4 is 2 no? Or am i Missing something?

also didnt effin listen to me.

Anyone know whether one person can kick the other in a two man party?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Anyone know whether one person can kick the other in a two man party?

Jup. It’s possible. Great.

DonQuack.9025:

wait wait wait im no math genius but

50% of 5 is 2.5 no? 50% of 4 is 2 no? Or am i Missing something?

also didnt effin listen to me.

Round up. So 5 needs 3. 2 needs 1. Lol.

Laulajatar.4253:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Anyone know whether one person can kick the other in a two man party?

Jup. It’s possible. Great.

Wow. Unbelievable. Seriously.

So we need proxies more than ever now I would reckon.

Didn’t all serious dungeon sellers already use proxies anyway?

Measure.6174:

This is just a general opinion of the vote kick system. I think it should be removed, or be more unanimous, as it is heavily abused. I see players kicked all the time for simply being sub-80, and I myself am tired of being vote kicked for no apparent reason. I think it detracts from the game in a significant way, and I think it is a convention that should not be upheld, along with many others that were rewritten in guild wars 2; especially considering the ease with which parties may be formed for dungeons. The lack of a vote kick system in Guild Wars 1 was phenomenal. Please remove or modify this system in a way that it does not have such a negative impact on ordinary ‘pick up group’ experiences. Thank you.

It’s ego-hurting to be kicked, yes. But may I suggest you start your own group? Why must you insist to be in a group started by someone else? What stop you from start a group? a little lack of confidence and initive-taking gut there? That is YOUR problem, not the group. People start their group with a particular expectation of performance and/or efficiency. You can hate them, but you can’t blame them. If group say 80s , aint you disrepectful entering it as a lowbe? if you group say exp and you are not, aint you shamelessly expecting to be carried by joining and remain silent until found out? They don’t force you to be in their group. And you don’t have to be in their group. They have all the right to remove you if they see you not befitting their goal. Don’t come into MY home and complain why the host have rights to kick out guests. The solution you are looking for is always there: make your own group.

@derv: 3 votes can be too much. I disagree. 2 is good. People who are afraid of being kicked either venturing into groups they are not fitting the expectations or a griefer looking for better setting to grief.

Bump

This thread need to be viewed, this kick system is litteraly broke and open doors for scam.

Make a delay for players that merge or join from LFG (something like 5 minutes at least)

A duo can just join and insta kick players so a delay would be the only viable option.

I vote for party leader or who open the dungeon can be the leader and only the leader can kick other player