Guild Wars 2

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Astralporing.1957:

perry.9645:

I don’t get why people still complain about timers when every boss can be beaten with 4+ minutes left on it smh…

That something can be done doesn’t mean it is an expected result, or that anyone can do the same.

Lol, arenanet has no need to design to the lowest hanging fruit.

Just wanted to chime in that I have seen most (if not all) groups struggle to phase the boss and wipe when there are 5-6 minutes left on the timer rather than make it to the enraged timer (LOL!) It is super rare to see the latter and to be frank, this kind of group:

• Must have really good healers.
• And they have a good knowledge on the mechanics to sustain through it.
• They most likely choose a low DPS build or simply stop attacking by choice.

So I fail to see the complaint about enrage timers restricting new players’ experience with raids. On the other hands, the mechanics in GW2 are truly punishing without any advanced knowledge. One of these days, if I walk into a noob training run and stay quiet, new players would drop down (by mechanics) in 30 seconds flat! Get cleaved by VG? Get bursted by the blue teleportation AoE? Not step out of the black goop at Gorseval? Not bother avoiding the flame wall at Sabetha? Not dodge out of Slothasor tantrum and flame breath? Not dropping the corruption/ well at Matthias? Wander and step on mines at Escort? Not dodging KC massive jump? Step into all the deadly aoe in Xera? All of these require ZERO play skills but are the most common mistakes in any training runs that I lead. I could harp on and on until my trainees do it by reflex and guess what? Those who make it to the enrage timer and wipe when the boss is at 10% HP left are only a couple of hours away from their first kill. The best part is their next kill only get better from there with their building up experience.

So yeah, please enlighten me how enrage timer is an issue, dear casual/beginner/easy moder raiders. Give me your screenshots, VoD, etc. I’ll be gladly troubleshooting for your group.

The problem is that unlike dungeon and fractal encounters where you can mess up as much as you want but you will pretty much be guaranteed to complete the encounter within an hour or two at the most, raids have people fail on a boss for 10+ hours with an unexperienced group.

When people say training run, its a run that trains you to be part of what has been estanlished as the easiest way to complete an encounter. That requires you to have a certain composition of builds and classes. In fractals not running a certain comp means maybe a few extra minutes doing the fractal. With a raid, not running a certain comp means not finishing any encounters at all and just wasting time.

Training runs are there to teach you how to use the right tools in the right ways to solve the raid puzzles. This prepares you for exp runs, which are for people who want to be able to finish raids quickly.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Then someone post a video of 10 tempest on the worst gear ( come one they are hitting like 180 – 300 damage lol ) clearing the hardest boss by far ( Matthias ), then suddenly its “well not everyone can do it”

They were doing it in full sustain gear. Basically, you can go full dps to clear the timer, or go full sustain to survive through it, but if you go middle way, you lack both and you wipe.

otome.2673:

You miss something. When HoT released all the casual ppl got the content they like. While ppl who enjoied instanced content like dung/frac had to wait

First, the fact they needed to do the damage control in april patch shows that you’re wrong on casuals getting what they wanted on HoT release (it was aimed for far more hardcore crowd). Second, i haven’t seen any new dungeons since that time either. And the new fractal is (looking at dev comments) aimed more at the raiders than the original fractal players.

Astralporing.1957:

They were doing it in full sustain gear. Basically, you can go full dps to clear the timer, or go full sustain to survive through it, but if you go middle way, you lack both and you wipe.

Ok, and now be realistic: Which group of 10 people has so extraordinary and special builds + gear that they are hitting the middle of all that? That’s about 1 in 1000? 1 in 10000? And if they really want to beat things they easily can. Exotic armor is cheap and can be acquired easily. Also, if there is 1-2 players uncomfortable to play more offensive they can still use some other abilities and will be successful.

Astralporing.1957:

First, the fact they needed to do the damage control in april patch shows that you’re wrong on casuals getting what they wanted on HoT release (it was aimed for far more hardcore crowd).

It was not aimed for far more hardcore crowd. They balanced it in a way the majority of casual players was not content with. They had not in mind to serve HoT open world stuff to a hardcore playerbase. Fun thing about this was that for people playing in groups everything was doable without any problems at all and also solo players were happy with it. If I have a look on the map now it’s ridiculous. Almost nothing can kill you, every 2-3 is loot laying on the ground. We have a thing called Tarir Multiloot what is bullkitten over 9000. Maps aren’t even fun to play any longer. You grind your stuff for collections and then you’re done. And then? Boring TM….or players like me not visiting those maps at all except to help new players like I do in whole Tyria.

Astralporing.1957:

Second, i haven’t seen any new dungeons since that time either. And the new fractal is (looking at dev comments) aimed more at the raiders than the original fractal players.

Dunno how often we have to repeat that here in this forum:
Dungeons are abandoned stuff. They don’t have dev expertise in the company because all of the dungeon devs aren’t working for Anet any longer. They stopped to develop this part of the game very short after game release so it was clearly obvious to everyone that we won’t see any dungeons at all – never.
The new fractal isn’t aimed at the raiders, they spoke about swamp, that’s true. If you ak raiders about Chaos fractal they don’t feel this frac was made for them because of the jumping platforms with harpyies/golems smashing you down and the boring platform fight at the final boss. The rest of the fractal is just kill stuff and a stupid running part.

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno how often we have to repeat that here in this forum:
Dungeons are abandoned stuff. They don’t have dev expertise in the company because all of the dungeon devs aren’t working for Anet any longer. They stopped to develop this part of the game very short after game release so it was clearly obvious to everyone that we won’t see any dungeons at all – never.

Not sure why are you addressing it to me. I wasn’t the one that brought dungeons up as an argument. I was merely responding to otome.

Astralporing.1957:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Then someone post a video of 10 tempest on the worst gear ( come one they are hitting like 180 – 300 damage lol ) clearing the hardest boss by far ( Matthias ), then suddenly its “well not everyone can do it”

They were doing it in full sustain gear. Basically, you can go full dps to clear the timer, or go full sustain to survive through it, but if you go middle way, you lack both and you wipe.

This statement is false, which you would know if you actually raided.

Several groups take 2 healers, which is, gasp, between full dps and sustain.

This also has nothing to do with the topic (class diversity). Your anti-raid bias is showing.

Astralporing.1957:

Not sure why are you addressing it to me. I wasn’t the one that brought dungeons up as an argument. I was merely responding to otome.

Use a translator for “like”

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, just socialize already.

Simply becaue to beat the raid you gotta usually use one of a limited set of compositions. I have seen often how when I run with my group we one shot things on our regular comp, and then we swap classes around for fun (so people learn to play other classes in raids), swap the comp around a bit => and keep failing XD just because it’s a tad harder.

You have to be fully prepared to have several classes you can bring to the raid that you can play well and have geared out. Best to have will probably be :
one of – (warrior/revenant/chrono) – sort of your boon givers
one of – (tempest /daredevil/necro) – condi or zerk damage. having both necro and tempest will get you a lot of raid spots, i think
druid I think is nice! i don’t have one atm but want to level one and learn to raid with one

TexZero.7910:

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, don’t play raids.

Fixed that for you.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, don’t play raids.

Fixed that for you.

sorry but I am calling bullkitten on that astral.

it is absolutely the truth,
Raids do not discriminate, People do.
Play with friends and work together,
If you do not have friends. Raid anyway and be social, and make some.

Ropechef.6192:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, don’t play raids.

Fixed that for you.

sorry but I am calling bullkitten on that astral.

it is absolutely the truth,
Raids do not discriminate, People do.
Play with friends and work together,
If you do not have friends. Raid anyway and be social, and make some.

That’s really only a half truth. Obviously raids are very do-able even with non-meta comps and players can choose to take (or not take) whatever classes they want, but it’s undeniable that the requirements of raids strongly encourage certain classes over others.

To be fair though this is more related to the design of the classes than it is to the design of raids (e.g. designing raid bosses where druid+chrono+warrior aren’t good is nearly impossible since they provide the highest 10 man DPS).

Dinosaurs.8674:

Ropechef.6192:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, don’t play raids.

Fixed that for you.

sorry but I am calling bullkitten on that astral.

it is absolutely the truth,
Raids do not discriminate, People do.
Play with friends and work together,
If you do not have friends. Raid anyway and be social, and make some.

That’s really only a half truth. Obviously raids are very do-able even with non-meta comps and players can choose to take (or not take) whatever classes they want, but it’s undeniable that the requirements of raids strongly encourage certain classes over others.

To be fair though this is more related to the design of the classes than it is to the design of raids (e.g. designing raid bosses where druid+chrono+warrior aren’t good is nearly impossible since they provide the highest 10 man DPS).

They’ve really backed themselves into a corner with all these buffs. My hope is they can put out non stacking alternatives. So say next elite spec guardians get a GoTL option that doesn’t stack with it. Stuff like that. Otherwise it’ll just continue that you stack whatever mods are available.

So i have a guild group i can do raids with but i havent been able to sign up on there web page since i cant commit to a raid time.(life happens)

So i joined a training group for VG. I and the other necro and condi engy all have some experience. The 3 of us killed the red guardian faster by around 20-30 sec then the other 7 could kill the green and blue. Mechanically they were solid, we hit the green spots and the tank rotated fine. We just lacked serious DPS and they tried by using food and utility buffs.

So i left after 4-5 runs and joined a “experienced VG” now this group said they had killed the first wing all the time. They had 3 tempest and thief. I was like cool because they found something different. Guess what they couldnt do anything, they started asking for ping checks and people had ascended gear but mechanically they just couldnt do it. People missed the green spots and the healers always healed 2-3 sec after you needed the heal.

Case and point raids are not for everyone, YOU HAVE TO RUN CERTAIN BUILDS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN DEGREE OF ABILITY AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE FIGHT VS THE BOSS.

For me this is a huge fail for HOT, you have a large group of GW2 fans who cant play this like myself because i have to find 9 other people who play at the same time, with the right gear on the right character and understand the boss mechanics.

I have had many guild members buy HOT try it out and leave because they simply cant survive in the HOT areas alone. A few others left because PvP has turned into something no one can really put a finger on. Then the dungeon/WvW group left because dealing with raid groups is simply not worth it.

You spend 1-2 hours trying to kill a boss and everyone acts like its not them, this creates conflict with the raid group and the pugs. Not running staff rev, not running scepter/dagger necro, not running ps warrior will get you kicked from a raid group. Heck i have 1 guild member who has full ascended maruder armor, accessory’s and the rune of the scholar rune on his staff thief. He had a couple groups tell him he wouldnt be able to do enough damage to be useful.

Now for the many guild groups who get threw this easily, thats great. Once again though for us that work nights, have kids, dont run the meta raid builds that the raid groups came up with, what is the paper to the boss?

Ill say it again HOT has created the most imbalance in the game. Anet nerfed core classes before HOT for who knows what, then they bring HOT out and HOT builds a 100 X better then core classes which killed build diversity among all the game types.

So if your reading this post and you want to get into raids, go to meta battle take the top 1-2 build and use it, get gear that works with it and then try to find a guild that is active and does it. If you can do those 3-4 things you can raid, if you are missing any you can not.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Short answer is raids don’t, people do.

Play with like minded people and you wont have this issue. Aka, just socialize already.

Fixed that for you.

I mean, if that is your personal choice go for it, no one will stop you from not playing raids. What i will absolutely stop you from doing is taking my quote out of context to enable you to self destruct the thread because you hate everything raids stand for and refuse to work with others.

On topic, 3 Healers are nice, too!

kdaddy.5431:

Once again though for us that work nights, have kids, dont run the meta raid builds that the raid groups came up with, what is the paper to the boss?

You can play 99% of the rest of the game. Obviously you don’t belong to the target audience of raids. Maybe just deal with it or try to find a solution for your problem.
Many of us are raiding weekly, more than once. In static groups and/or with randoms with clearance of all wings and bosses.

TexZero.7910:

I mean, if that is your personal choice go for it, no one will stop you from not playing raids. What i will absolutely stop you from doing is taking my quote out of context to enable you to self destruct the thread because you hate everything raids stand for and refuse to work with others.

Wasn’t out of context. You gave OP advice to play with like-minded people. Raiders are not like-minded.
Just look at this very thread – all raiders (including everyone that assert that you can do raids with more relaxed group compositions) basically told OP that he was in the wrong and that by playing warrior in a group that already had two others he was causing the group to fail. So, by saying that OP should play with like-minded people to avoid class discrimination in raids, you basically told him to not raid.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I mean, if that is your personal choice go for it, no one will stop you from not playing raids. What i will absolutely stop you from doing is taking my quote out of context to enable you to self destruct the thread because you hate everything raids stand for and refuse to work with others.

Wasn’t out of context. You gave OP advice to play with like-minded people. Raiders are not like-minded.
Just look at this very thread – all raiders (including everyone that assert that you can do raids with more relaxed group compositions) basically told OP that he was in the wrong and that by playing warrior in a group that already had two others he was causing the group to fail. So, by saying that OP should play with like-minded people to avoid class discrimination in raids, you basically told him to not raid.

On contrary, several people, including myself, said that the OP could choose to raid with whoever they like. The question is: is a training leader obligated to take all comers? or are they “allowed” to impose some restrictions?

To train people in dungeons, I don’t care what build they are running. Any group of 3+ experienced players can carry them through any mistakes/misunderstandings. Ditto for T1-2 fractals. For T4 fractals, though, they’d need to have AR, otherwise they wouldn’t learn anything (it’s possible for very experienced fractallers to avoid AR, but it’s unusual for newbies on a training run).

For raids, if the leader wants to help people succeed without investing an entire day, it seems reasonable to me that they need to compromise the idea of helping “everyone” by limiting it to people willing to handle certain roles. The OP wasn’t willing to meet halfway on this — as is their right — and the leader, reasonably, said that this wasn’t the training run for them.

tl;dr it was a bad fit between the OP’s needs & preferences and the squad’s needs & preferences. If the OP wants to play whatever they like, they need to be ready to accept that not everyone will be prepared to take them.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I mean, if that is your personal choice go for it, no one will stop you from not playing raids. What i will absolutely stop you from doing is taking my quote out of context to enable you to self destruct the thread because you hate everything raids stand for and refuse to work with others.

Wasn’t out of context. You gave OP advice to play with like-minded people. Raiders are not like-minded.
Just look at this very thread – all raiders (including everyone that assert that you can do raids with more relaxed group compositions) basically told OP that he was in the wrong and that by playing warrior in a group that already had two others he was causing the group to fail. So, by saying that OP should play with like-minded people to avoid class discrimination in raids, you basically told him to not raid.

Could you kindly pull whatever hatred you have for the word raid out of this conversation and just stop and logically think about what you just said ?

No, really pause. Stop.

The OP has several other options beyond not raiding. That is literally going to the extreme end because your vitriol for raids is making you daft and blind to other options.

The Op could

A) Join a guild that raids (there are several)
B) Have been accommodating and swapped to anything else to help the training run.
C) Form their own group without restrictions
D) Literally any combination of the above

But yet you jump to not raiding…I just don’t even anymore. If you don’t want to raid fine, but stop superimposing yourself into every conversation, it’s not about you and your unwillingness to raid.

Vinceman.4572:

kdaddy.5431:

Once again though for us that work nights, have kids, dont run the meta raid builds that the raid groups came up with, what is the paper to the boss?

You can play 99% of the rest of the game. Obviously you don’t belong to the target audience of raids. Maybe just deal with it or try to find a solution for your problem.
Many of us are raiding weekly, more than once. In static groups and/or with randoms with clearance of all wings and bosses.

What are you talking about? When i join my raid group we usually kill the bosses in 2-3 tries.

I have over 27k AP, i have competed in AG tournaments for PvP, have gotten to legendary 3 times in the PvP seasons and have map completion on 2 characters.

Im speaking for the many and you sitting there saying im not the target audience, then who is it for?

I can understand the hardcore dungeon groups loving this but the HOT gave what else?

PvP is completely lost with que times already over 5+ minutes and the season just started. WvW got what? The old maps back, man the WvW players must love it. I mentioned in my other post why alot of PvE players are leaving/ taking extensive breaks.

I can play 99% of the rest of the game which is what exactly? These groups im randomly joining are also other Guild groups who say they do raids. Some of them we get it done and others dont. Like anything else peoples abilities are vastly different, acting like raids dont have issues shows a little bit of a blindness to the overall situation it in.

kdaddy.5431:

Im speaking for the many and you sitting there saying im not the target audience, then who is it for?

You are not speaking for the many. The majority of players is able to play during afternoon and prime time etc. It’s a minority who is playing at night.

kdaddy.5431:

PvP is completely lost with que times already over 5+ minutes and the season just started.

You have queue time of 10+ in other games that are PvP only, so 5 min. for a game with the main focus on PvE that’s absolutely extraordinary good.

kdaddy.5431:

why alot of PvE players are leaving/ taking extensive breaks.

Players leaving since game release and people come up with “the game will die soon due to abandoning players”. Anet has the numbers, you have 0 proof.

kdaddy.5431:

I can play 99% of the rest of the game which is what exactly? These groups im randomly joining are also other Guild groups who say they do raids. Some of them we get it done and others dont. Like anything else peoples abilities are vastly different, acting like raids dont have issues shows a little bit of a blindness to the overall situation it in.

You can play fractals, dungeons, open world content (which has the biggest impact for the playerbase) like SW, HoT maps and more.
Raids don’t have issues, the lfg is full of advertising groups. Hell, there are lots players in static or pug groups constantly clearing raids every week + defeating the same bosses multiple times per week just for fun.

Ging.6485:

The problem is that unlike dungeon and fractal encounters where you can mess up as much as you want but you will pretty much be guaranteed to complete the encounter within an hour or two at the most, raids have people fail on a boss for 10+ hours with an unexperienced group.

Oh noez, how horrible. 10+ hours of wiping to a raid boss for the first kill, how can anyone expect people to put some time into raiding?

Seriously, 10 hours are nothing. The best raid bosses I’ve played (not in GW2, not enough time for two raids in parallel) took much longer to master with an average guild. And when they went down, the feeling was just amazing. I get it that the wish for free loot is pretty prevalent now, but all that whining with regard to raids is just embarrassing.

Cerby.1069:

attended one of those ‘training’ raid things that are apparently a thing. since i wanted to just try out a raid and see what the big deal was.

Upon joining they asked me which class i was playing…i said warrior. And then they were all on about how they probably have too many warriors (3-4 ttl), and that they needed tempests. I asked them why it mattered and they harped on about how they wanted to get to show everyone the final part of the raid. Then they suddenly said "ty "name"" and kicked me.

So…….just kinda flabberghasted by that. Supposed to be training…for fun and learning and kicks. Regardless of how good a player I am though i’m not allowed to join cause I’m a warrior…? isn’t the goal of raids to do as much damage as possible within a timelimit? warriors don’t do damage? tehy don’t provide daamge for the team? they don’t tank? they don’t have condi? like….screw ur meta its training and i want to play. As long as I’m a good player and running a fully geared char I should be allowed to play in a training session….no? i feel i got kicked cause other players are inadequate at fighting…and they need supports and the proper meta so everyone can get away with pressing ‘1’ to win.

I mean is that really good design to create a game where to play in the different modes you have to have multiple chars and classes? thought the point of hot was to expand on each class so they each fill enough roles that they can be relevant in any part of the game.

tldr: Mentors are lame if that’s how this has got to go down.

1) Training run, chances are you didn’t read the rest of the message where it was listing classes. If they didn’t list what classes they needed then i can sort of see your frustration.

2) I’m guessing you have never raided before on any game…. welcome to raiding sweetheart. Play what is best for the group or go home. This isn’t fractals where you can afk and spam 1 the whole time and eventually get a kill.

3) If you’re so hell bent that you’re a Godly warrior… then create your own group? It’s not that hard to do so… I’ll even teach you how… are you ready??

A) Log In to Guild Wars 2
B) Go to the Aerodome or VB …
I’ll wait for your loading screen….
…
…
Now that’s done..
C) Open LFG.. now here’s the hard part… this takes a lot of skill
D) Go to raiding….
E) Go to the top option
F) Create a New LFG
G) Wait for 9 people to join
H) Profit

That should give you 500 AP with how hard that was to do. Right?

tdlr; mentors aren’t lame, you’re just upset that you don’t know how raiding works on any game and you’re upset that they didn’t want to ruin their group comp by taking an extra warrior.

Sorry for coming off as a kitten, but i have no sympathy for people who post non sense like this.

p.s. as a ranger player since release, you don’t know what discrimination is until you’ve been part of the struggle in all game modes for the first year of the games existence.

Biggest point people really need to grasp is that not all content is designed for everyone to play, they made raids for the players who like to min-max reasonably, research/learn builds and strategies in depth, have excellent knowledge of their class/classes and good mechanical skill. They didn’t make an easy mode so if you go into raids and are not one of these players then you’re gonna have a hard time.

With regards to the OP, training runs don’t have to be all inclusive, they tend to actually be the least productive ones when they are. Some commanders may like to actually train people who are at end-game level and want to succeed and go on to kill the bosses within the run rather than just go for a jolly wipe-fest with players who don’t know what toughness is.

Vinceman.4572:

kdaddy.5431:

Im speaking for the many and you sitting there saying im not the target audience, then who is it for?

You are not speaking for the many. The majority of players is able to play during afternoon and prime time etc. It’s a minority who is playing at night.

kdaddy.5431:

PvP is completely lost with que times already over 5+ minutes and the season just started.

You have queue time of 10+ in other games that are PvP only, so 5 min. for a game with the main focus on PvE that’s absolutely extraordinary good.

kdaddy.5431:

why alot of PvE players are leaving/ taking extensive breaks.

Players leaving since game release and people come up with “the game will die soon due to abandoning players”. Anet has the numbers, you have 0 proof.

kdaddy.5431:

I can play 99% of the rest of the game which is what exactly? These groups im randomly joining are also other Guild groups who say they do raids. Some of them we get it done and others dont. Like anything else peoples abilities are vastly different, acting like raids dont have issues shows a little bit of a blindness to the overall situation it in.

You can play fractals, dungeons, open world content (which has the biggest impact for the playerbase) like SW, HoT maps and more.
Raids don’t have issues, the lfg is full of advertising groups. Hell, there are lots players in static or pug groups constantly clearing raids every week + defeating the same bosses multiple times per week just for fun.

You are making alot of my points,

1- You say that alot of people are playing during the day. You said i dont have the numbers to prove it and ill use your point and say your point holds no validation here.

2- You start saying that ohhh in other games you have longer que times, What? LOL,Dota, COD, and other games. I dont have 10+ que times and as someone who has made legendary pretty easily. Ive had 1 hour que times and NO, other games dont have these que times.

3- I never said the game was dying, you just came to that on your own. I was pointing out smaller populations in other game modes other then PvE. WvW now has combined servers. Up to 4 servers on a team and they still cant put the map into que. Right before HOT on CD a T4-5 server we could put it into que on Friday and Saturday nights. I didnt say anything about the game dying, you came to that conclusion on your own. (which means its on your mind)

4- You are saying the same people are clearing the raid bosses for fun. There is a few things to this. I for one can join a raid group at random complete 1-2 bosses a week without any structure but alot of people can not and you are using people who have success at dungeons as a example. This thread was made about discrimination on classes, abilities and guild superiority issues.

You are not proving anything other then raid groups dont struggle since they play the meta and know the system. Its like the elitist in PvP who say legendary is too easy. Some people showed how they had to play 300-400 games to get it while a player like me who is not ESL level got to legendary in 150-200 games with a 60% win rate. Then ESL players getting to legendary in less then 100.

If i came out and said hey you shouldnt get a title and symbol by your head because you are truly not a legendary player, its the same as you saying ohhh raids are not for you. You should focus on fractals, PvE, or WvW.

Like i said im speaking for alot people out there who are not having success because they play thief. Im speaking for the people who dont have 30+ LI, im speaking for those who dont have ascended gear.

You and other people in this thread are like do these 3 things, 1- join a raid group ( wow because all of them just love having new people and can mess up a dungeon) 2- Get the right class with the right gear and learn the mechanics of each boss( and please dont get discouraged if your NEW guild mates get frustrated when 1-2 new people mess up) or make your own raid group which goes back to my original post on all the reasons why raids for the majority isnt working.

I can agree that raids dont have to be for everyone but when WvW is like a west African black rhino, with PvP seasons having 10 min que times and it just started, i am simply just wondering when the trickle effect happens and you can pretend it wont or maybe this game goes more PvE lore style like GW1.

kdaddy.5431:

You and other people in this thread are like do these 3 things, 1- join a raid group ( wow because all of them just love having new people and can mess up a dungeon)

Because that’s the best thing you can do. And I have to disagree, many guilds are looking for new raid people, some of them desperately! Looking for forum proves me right.

kdaddy.5431:

You said i dont have the numbers to prove it and ill use your point and say your point holds no validation here.

You said lots of people are playing at night and have kids. So, it’s on you to prove, not me. But I doubt that the majority of players is playing at 1 am here in europe. Just go onto open world maps or have a look at the lfg. Clearly showing you that most of the players are sleeping or at least are offline. ^^ Raid lfg is almost empty to this time till next noon (except raid reset on monday).
Maybe it’s a little bit different with the US and the different time zones from east to west coast, but I also doubt that. Numbers of streamers during US night is showing I am right.

kdaddy.5431:

Like i said im speaking for alot people out there who are not having success because they play thief.

Thieves are more than viable. Players – just like you – should read patch notes and have an eye on the changes – at least partially – no need to learn the qT page by heart but inform yourself. Raids were never meant to be: “I go in now and win.” when released. Reading is sometimes hard for people but a fundamental necessity even in video games.

And it’s not like people always have been looking for classes before in GW2. Dungeon meta anyone? Warrior, mes, ele ele, ele/thief? Additionally, I don’t know any player who is playing one single class only. This argument is bullkitten. And, you need exotics only. Very few groups are demanding gear check and kick you not having ascended.

kdaddy.5431:

You are not proving anything other then raid groups dont struggle since they play the meta and know the system.

Cool thing is, everybody can ask friends who raid, ask raiding guilds. And hey, we have reddit, the forum and youtube videos. You can pretty much copy everything, it’s not hard to have success in that way. Almost every class is very easy to play in raids even for raid beginners. There are classes where you can move your char and “klick” 2 skills during the fight and nobody would notice it, you still succeed.

Since I have a look to the left and right, I see many guilds started to raid months ago and now they kill 5-6 bosses consistently while I had never believed they could make it.
The sad crowd of people that want to raid is smaller than you think.

Btw. I had 20 minutes queue time when I left LoL. Still GW2’s main focus is not PvP and you have to accept that GW2 is NOT a big PvP title. Even the PvE crowd is small compared to other games.

I think part of what we have right now is that there are certain requirements for each raid encounter that need to be met, because the mechanics justify them.

What we actually should request is more Elite Specializations to come out that allow certain classes to branch out into roles they couldn’t normally do during encounters. Imagine an actually viable Healing Engineer build that’s not impractical bandages (seriously, those need some help).

I mean there is a certain level of flexibility right now, but there’s always room for improvement by not necessarily looking at the encounters, but what professions have themselves that makes them unfit for a certain role.

2 cents.

The classes are designed in a near vacuum, and the game modes PvE, PvP, PvW (player v raid) and WvWvW, have very little synergy with some of the classes.

Every game mode has its own style and requirement, and since there is no thought put into the synergy between the classes and the modes you get a “survival of the fittest” approach to team composition. The classes with the most useful features will be picked for that type of game mode.

Ragmon.6350:

The classes are designed in a near vacuum, and the game modes PvE, PvP, PvW (player v raid) and WvWvW, have very little synergy with some of the classes.

Every game mode has its own style and requirement, and since there is no thought put into the synergy between the classes and the modes you get a “survival of the fittest” approach to team composition. The classes with the most useful features will be picked for that type of game mode.

I think that’s not quite correct, albeit even prior to launch Arenanet did intend for all professions to be self-sufficient. They all have personal healing, they can all actively move and defend themselves, and they can all attack.

The buff system goes off a 5 party group, in which they intentionally gifted nearly each profession with a unique group buff from traits, or some unique mechanic that supplements the group like Warrior Banners. WvW and now Raids have this organizational part that requires managing this 5 party buff system effectively.

That being said, I do believe the solution to this would be Elite Specializations that can fill the holes. If I had to look from a Raiding standpoint we have two roles in desperate need of attention:

- Tanking: Mostly Chronos take this role, however I have run with groups that support a Guardian instead which effectively turns on perma-protection for the group. The biggest issue I have with tanking roles is that the other professions suffer such an intense loss in their damage contribution that it almost seems pointless to bring them. I could maybe see the rare PS Warrior Tank but the Might Stacks can fall off pretty easily if they have to waste dodges all the time avoiding big hits.

- Healing: Druid is Supreme. Druid is Life. Druid is Love. However Healing Tempest is an excellent replacement for some of the encounters in Forsaken Thicket. This is probably the role in the worst shape just because of how effective these two professions are over their counterparts. Ventari Rev seemed to be created in mind for this same exact spot but there’s an unwieldy amount of micromanagement clicking you need to do with your healing tablet that borderlines insanity. It can do the job, but it’s just not fluid play nor fun to play with. And, in order to maintain those heals you would have to have the rev give up the unique boon duration buff, which would be equally insane.

We can have Elite Specializations address these holes, more options is always better, because it enables the possibility of more synergy between profession comps in raids specifically that was not there before.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For raids, if the leader wants to help people succeed without investing an entire day, it seems reasonable to me that they need to compromise the idea of helping “everyone” by limiting it to people willing to handle certain roles. The OP wasn’t willing to meet halfway on this — as is their right — and the leader, reasonably, said that this wasn’t the training run for them.

tl;dr it was a bad fit between the OP’s needs & preferences and the squad’s needs & preferences. If the OP wants to play whatever they like, they need to be ready to accept that not everyone will be prepared to take them.

This. So many of this type of exclusion complaint has to do with the complainant being unwilling to be inconvenienced by looking for the right fit for his/her preferences. Perhaps these people might ask, “How convenient is it for someone to sponsor a training run, and why should I be allowed to add further to their inconvenience so that the experience is convenient for me?”

I suggest some of these people trying to take a power necro into raids, either as dps or tank. See how quickly you get hit by the door.

Since it is my main, if I’m not in a guild, i won’t get a chance raid, and training squads wont accept me.

I can switch to other classes, and have told other people that, but all they wanna talk about is me switching my necro to vipers. The one thing I say I will not(I spent 300 g to swap and hated how it plays). But they never hit me back up to bring another class.

Any clue what’s up with that?

I certainly understand the Op’s frustration, however most people are meta sheep. They only want the exact meta comp, because it’s been proven to work. Deviations or experimentation aren’t done by the average raider, only the ones who have the spare time and know the mechanics. I suggest joining one of those guilds, Like king and DnT. They have more tolerance for slight deviations of the meta than sheeple it seems.

Best thing you can do is know the fight, and your class/build, so that when the time comes to perform you know you at least got your part covered.

It’s sad but that’s how it is. If people are that desperate for new raiders, but cant accept a slightly lower dps build, or a good build that is slightly off meta, then don’t waste your time. Chances are they still have a lot to learn if they can not think for themselves.

FrostDraco.8306:

I suggest some of these people trying to take a power necro into raids, either as dps or tank. See how quickly you get hit by the door.

Since it is my main, if I’m not in a guild, i won’t get a chance raid, and training squads wont accept me.

I can switch to other classes, and have told other people that, but all they wanna talk about is me switching my necro to vipers. The one thing I say I will not(I spent 300 g to swap and hated how it plays). But they never hit me back up to bring another class.

Any clue what’s up with that?

I certainly understand the Op’s frustration, however most people are meta sheep. They only want the exact meta comp, because it’s been proven to work. Deviations or experimentation aren’t done by the average raider, only the ones who have the spare time and know the mechanics. I suggest joining one of those guilds, Like king and DnT. They have more tolerance for slight deviations of the meta than sheeple it seems.

Best thing you can do is know the fight, and your class/build, so that when the time comes to perform you know you at least got your part covered.

It’s sad but that’s how it is. If people are that desperate for new raiders, but cant accept a slightly lower dps build, or a good build that is slightly off meta, then don’t waste your time. Chances are they still have a lot to learn if they can not think for themselves.

Well like always, you can create your own groups. Firstly, after chronotank, Necro tank is very popular and no one will get upset at a decent necro tank. So you’re flat at wrong on that. We actually occasionally have a power necro in our raid sometimes and he’s very decent. He isn’t massively experienced but we usually one shot VG and Gors. He is in a different time zone, yet makes extra effort to come and I have a lot of respect for that. Personally, I’m more likely to take someone like that than a meta build who is not punctual, doesn’t listen or gets kittenty with other players.

However, part of a balanced team is you have to prepare and be able to alternate depending on what the fights themselves actually require and what other people in your raid are bringing. He knows viper necro is very good so he is making an alternate set in his own time. Doesn’t mean his power set will be redundant, but he will have more options. Apart from Gors, most of the other fights are not huge DPS races anyways but rely on Mechanics. As a power necro , he can still bring say, epidemic to Sloth and epi the slublings back to Sloth and use plague signet. But Knowing when to drop the posion and when you’re fixated is more important than any of that. Dead dps don’t dps; no matter their class.

People seem to only see things from their point of view. A raid relies on 10 people to do a role and consistent raiders should be able to change and swap roles as and when required. It’s just as unfair for you to stubbornly stick to your preferred class and role, just as it is for people to dismiss you because of it.

Compromise is everything.

Necro tank is not very popular, as someone who pugs nearly every day (even with lockout it’s fun as someone just coming back) I’ve seen it once. Chrono tank is a ‘requirement’ for pugs apparently. I was quite happy to see some things mixed up when I was a 10th for a guild the other day and we ran necro tank.

Read some comments tht raids system are badly designed. IMO I think it is clever. It isn’t like a zerg type of raids. Everyone is equally important. In dungeon you can carry ppl. In raids you will need to know the mechanics well and play as a team. Sabetha for example, the final phase is the most fun. Sloth – team work dodge and move .. timing etc .. It is clever. Those I played with.. have truely enjoyed it. Those who can’t .. drop out. Similar swamp.. So many complaints.. But I enjoyed it. And think its clever. Need more of those content. Zerg type living story is boring. In gw2 we HV many diff type of players.. So its hard to make a game that fits all. As for raids. Good job so far. Just don’t nerf anymore prof that currently works well in pve. Why nerf when we are killing NPC ? Nerfing in PvP I can understand why. But in pve don’t touch that already working well. But instead add new content. This will keep existing players continue to play. Once you lost a vet player.. They won’t come back! :p

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

Pugs generally accept only the meta builds because, by definition, they are the best builds for the game mode. Why would a pug accept a sub-optimal build when there are other players willing to play the meta ones? And, even in pug runs, some commanders allow for flexibility.

For guild/friend runs, you can run whatever special snowflake build you want. The enrage timers are really generous, so you don’t need to maximize dps.

I was under the impression that you lead guild runs. Why don’t you allow snowflake builds there?

Edit: Seems like this comment is full anti-raid — nothing constructive, and mis-identifies any problem.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

It just show how you dont know anything about raids in GW2, and just talking non-sense. Raids in GW2 is so player skill focused that you can kill with any build if the 10 player have the skill to weight the downsides of their build.
But as you show you probably think that you are a great player with your nomad build on open world, and raids folk are just mean for not seeing how great you are.

Once again, I raid every week and I most definitely am not anti-raid.

Every time anyone talks about changing anything with raids, the same 2-3 people immediately pounce and start yelling about “anti raid” or “you have no idea what youre talking about.”

It isn’t about chest thumping and who can prove they are the best raider through their forum comments. It is about providing feedback and, hopefully, inviting multiple perspectives to the conversation.

I think raids need some work. I think with some minor tweaks, they could offer a challenging and more open experience without some the barriers that exist in the current model. I respect that others do not feel that way.

And, please please please make arguments without making it personal – or going on the warpath as soon as someone says something about change. All that does is discourage people from taking part in the conversation – which isn’t good for anyone.

Blaeys.3102:

Once again, I raid every week and I most definitely am not anti-raid.

Every time anyone talks about changing anything with raids, the same 2-3 people immediately pounce and start yelling about “anti raid” or “you have no idea what youre talking about.”

It isn’t about chest thumping and who can prove they are the best raider through their forum comments. It is about providing feedback and, hopefully, inviting multiple perspectives to the conversation.

I think raids need some work. I think with some minor tweaks, they could offer a challenging and more open experience without some the barriers that exist in the current model. I respect that others do not feel that way.

And, please please please make arguments without making it personal – or going on the warpath as soon as someone says something about change. All that does is discourage people from taking part in the conversation – which isn’t good for anyone.

It’s no longer a conversation because anti-raiders:
- don’t offer constructive criticism
- do not take advice on how to beat raids
- give hilariously false statements
- only accept the discontinuation of raids or easy-mode as a solution to their problems

It’s not a personal attack to ask why you don’t bring non-meta builds. If you offer up your raiding experience for your argument, prepare to be challenged on it.

And, to the substance of your original post, it’s hilariously clear that you don’t need meta builds to beat raids. I’m surprised you offered that argument.

Eliminate old technology of time-gating and implement tiered loot rewards based upon performance would prevent this drama. Do it faster get 2x the loot or better RNG.

The thing about meta builds is there are usually 3 components to Raids.

Doing Damage, CCing Breakbars, Performing Mechanics correctly.
There is an optimal way of doing these things. This optimal way, the metal build, was discovered by certain people after long periods of practice. So as the raids don’t become easy or trivial, they seem to in fact be balanced around the meta builds.

The way to fix this is basically … The new Swampland. Bloomhunger has low HP and no timer making DPS inconsequential, on the other hand he does super high damage, that while avoidable, requires attention to your surroundings and skills. He also has phases of stationary high damage that can either be dealt with by utilizing all ranged players, or by breaking the bar. Bloomhunger is utilizing raid mechanics without the pressures of raid timers or requiring a meta build… yet there are tons of people that still complain about the encounter.

The only thing that I would change about Bloomhunger, is to force people to CC him. Make him take reduced damage during the CC phase, and also wipe the group if they don’t CC him fast enough (within 15 seconds let’s say).

However, even that would not be enough to quell everyone’s complaints. Which means that, it is almost impossible for Anet to make a challenging raid encounter. Because people complaining about a moderately challenging fight such as new Swampland, basically boils down to people complaining about challenge as a whole.

Ging.6485:

The thing about meta builds is there are usually 3 components to Raids.

Doing Damage, CCing Breakbars, Performing Mechanics correctly.
There is an optimal way of doing these things. This optimal way, the metal build, was discovered by certain people after long periods of practice. So as the raids don’t become easy or trivial, they seem to in fact be balanced around the meta builds.

The way to fix this is basically … The new Swampland. Bloomhunger has low HP and no timer making DPS inconsequential, on the other hand he does super high damage, that while avoidable, requires attention to your surroundings and skills. He also has phases of stationary high damage that can either be dealt with by utilizing all ranged players, or by breaking the bar. Bloomhunger is utilizing raid mechanics without the pressures of raid timers or requiring a meta build… yet there are tons of people that still complain about the encounter.

The only thing that I would change about Bloomhunger, is to force people to CC him. Make him take reduced damage during the CC phase, and also wipe the group if they don’t CC him fast enough (within 15 seconds let’s say).

However, even that would not be enough to quell everyone’s complaints. Which means that, it is almost impossible for Anet to make a challenging raid encounter. Because people complaining about a moderately challenging fight such as new Swampland, basically boils down to people complaining about challenge as a whole.

If you combine your thoughts above with those of the post immediately before you -

curtegg.5216:

Eliminate old technology of time-gating and implement tiered loot rewards based upon performance would prevent this drama. Do it faster get 2x the loot or better RNG.

and you would probably have a good raid system – one that rewards attention to detail and excelling at the fight – while still giving people with non meta builds a realistic opportunity to experience an entire raid (with the understanding that the rewards will probably not be as good).

GW2 has some great mechanics in place – and a strong history of thinking outside the box when it comes to implementing content. I feel a system like the one outlined above (or something else more creative) would be way better than what we have now (still offering a real challenge without creating the barriers the current system has).

Blaeys.3102:

Ging.6485:

The thing about meta builds is there are usually 3 components to Raids.

Doing Damage, CCing Breakbars, Performing Mechanics correctly.
There is an optimal way of doing these things. This optimal way, the metal build, was discovered by certain people after long periods of practice. So as the raids don’t become easy or trivial, they seem to in fact be balanced around the meta builds.

The way to fix this is basically … The new Swampland. Bloomhunger has low HP and no timer making DPS inconsequential, on the other hand he does super high damage, that while avoidable, requires attention to your surroundings and skills. He also has phases of stationary high damage that can either be dealt with by utilizing all ranged players, or by breaking the bar. Bloomhunger is utilizing raid mechanics without the pressures of raid timers or requiring a meta build… yet there are tons of people that still complain about the encounter.

The only thing that I would change about Bloomhunger, is to force people to CC him. Make him take reduced damage during the CC phase, and also wipe the group if they don’t CC him fast enough (within 15 seconds let’s say).

However, even that would not be enough to quell everyone’s complaints. Which means that, it is almost impossible for Anet to make a challenging raid encounter. Because people complaining about a moderately challenging fight such as new Swampland, basically boils down to people complaining about challenge as a whole.

If you combine your thoughts above with those of the post immediately before you -

curtegg.5216:

Eliminate old technology of time-gating and implement tiered loot rewards based upon performance would prevent this drama. Do it faster get 2x the loot or better RNG.

and you would probably have a good raid system – one that rewards attention to detail and excelling at the fight – while still giving people with non meta builds a realistic opportunity to experience an entire raid (with the understanding that the rewards will probably not be as good).

GW2 has some great mechanics in place – and a strong history of thinking outside the box when it comes to implementing content. I feel a system like the one outlined above (or something else more creative) would be way better than what we have now (still offering a real challenge without creating the barriers the current system has).

You still insist that non meta cant complete the raid encounter non-sense.
Please before you repeat these lies one more time, post a video of a VG, Sloth, Trio, Scort, KC, Mathias not being able to be complete because of the group build, not because they are failling mechanics.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

That doesn’t make sense. Apart from the proven fact that perfect meta dps execution and I don’t know what else is not required for raid success, how exactly do raids influence all the other game modes? I don’t raid due to time constraints, but so far I have not noticed that copy paste stuff being an important element in other PvE areas, although raid builds certainly were a nice inspiration after a break of two years.

Which reminds me … even if raid builds did influence other stuff, that would hardly be something new. I still remember the (pointless) QQ about the dungeon meta back then, so it almost seems as if nothing has changed.

CptAurellian.9537:

Which reminds me … even if raid builds did influence other stuff, that would hardly be something new. I still remember the (pointless) QQ about the dungeon meta back then, so it almost seems as if nothing has changed.

And there will be no change as long as some players want other players to accept their build while simultaneously expecting that they should get into whatever group is forming when they want to play. In other words, there will always be these types of complaints. The only way for the developer to change exclusionary behavior would be to do something draconian like: random assignment to a group based solely on when players queue, no kick function, and enforced time outs if a player leaves a group.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

You gotta love how everyone takes 1 statement you make and turns it around to not something your are trying to say.

Like everyone is missing the point that raids are meant for certain build types for certain classes.

Can you do it with others of course but when you are a pug/new/struggling with the mechanics being off the meta will get you kicked.

I had to stop replying to another person because he missed my points and said GW2 is small compared to other games. His argument was this game is smaller, in LOL he had a 20 minute que (which compares to my 60+ ques and the 120 min ques from ESL players) and just like you they tell you you dont know anything about raiding. You said you raid but you understand why people are upset because you see the flaws.

I said i had finished multiple bosses but he said raiding wasnt for me and then went on to say stuff that contradicts the OP thread and the next 3 threads in this forum which is that people are getting kicked from raid groups for not playing a certain build.

I also find it hilarious that its the same people on each post listing off the

• learn the mechanics
• Join a raid guild
• if you have the wrong gear get the right gear and then get it on multiple classes
• etc etc etc

The exact same people and then they are like my raid group we play blah blah blah, literally 1/2 the posts in here are about how they are a pug and a raid group kicked them and the other half is telling them to get good or make there own team.

Sorry i just found how you made a slightly negative but true comment about raids then 4-5 people pounced on 1-2 things you said to try and make your comments invalid.

kdaddy.5431:

I said i had finished multiple bosses but he said raiding wasnt for me

You haven’t understood my message. My message was not: “Raiding isn’t for you”. It was rather that it is very hard to raid if you are online at night only and you have work, family with kids and other real life stuff. It’s still possible to raid but as a pupil or student without that many responsibilities it’s way easier than as a settled adult. Nothing more was said and meant!

kdaddy.5431:

Can you do it with others of course but when you are a pug/new/struggling with the mechanics being off the meta will get you kicked.

That’s the thing skeptics and on the other hand some anti-raiders bring along very often but let’s make something clear:
Raids were never meant to be pugged.
That was the intention of Anet when bringing out raids. The lfg raid section is only there because the usual open world section was crowded with raid requests from groups and single raiders. The implementation was several months after installing raids!
We don’t need to discuss that it’s possible to pug just accept it’s not meant to be. That’s the background info and argument you have to keep in mind and never forget it when discussing about raids.

So, it is obvious to give the advice to join a raid (training) guild to players that want to start raiding because it is the most possible and fastest way to kill a boss if you have 0 clue of how raids work. There is nothing hilarious to see in such post/advice.

kdaddy.5431:

Like everyone is missing the point that raids are meant for certain build types for certain classes.
Can you do it with others of course but when you are a pug/new/struggling with the mechanics being off the meta will get you kicked.

Well, how was it during dungeon high peak? Most lfgs were looking for 1 ps, several eles, a thief, and a mes, sometimes a guard. In fractals mostly the same thing. The builds were set! A ps had to be a ps, otherwise groups were kicking. Eles were there for high dps – otherwise: kick. Mes for time warp, portals, reflects etc. – otherwise: kick.
Of course dungeons could be completed with non-static builds but the majority of players in instanced content ran the most known builds because it was the fastest way to have success. And that, my dear, hasn’t changed much – look at most of T4 fractal lfgs: “exp” + “have enough AR” + “necro”, “druid”, “ps”, “chrono”. Even there the need for special classes and proper builds is high!
The only difference is that raids are a bit harder so that pugs need to run the best builds or otherwise struggle. And nobody wants to struggle after so much practice – it’s just a logical thing.

Finally, if someone is making a statement like “Raids are poorly designed.” he will surely be countered by raiders killing bosses regularly. Such statement is ridiculous in their and especially in my eyes. Look at the raid lfg. It’s full during prime time. You can count all dungeon paths together from Ascalon to Arah and there are still more groups and players searching for raids than dungeons. I doubt that all these players think that raids are poorly designed. That would be an insane assumption. ^^
So yeah, criticism is good but it has to be based on facts and not personal feelings.