Guild Wars 2

Vinceman.4572:

kdaddy.5431:

I said i had finished multiple bosses but he said raiding wasnt for me

You haven’t understood my message. My message was not: “Raiding isn’t for you”. It was rather that it is very hard to raid if you are online at night only and you have work, family with kids and other real life stuff. It’s still possible to raid but as a pupil or student without that many responsibilities it’s way easier than as a settled adult. Nothing more was said and meant!

kdaddy.5431:

Can you do it with others of course but when you are a pug/new/struggling with the mechanics being off the meta will get you kicked.

That’s the thing skeptics and on the other hand some anti-raiders bring along very often but let’s make something clear:
Raids were never meant to be pugged.
That was the intention of Anet when bringing out raids. The lfg raid section is only there because the usual open world section was crowded with raid requests from groups and single raiders. The implementation was several months after installing raids!
We don’t need to discuss that it’s possible to pug just accept it’s not meant to be. That’s the background info and argument you have to keep in mind and never forget it when discussing about raids.

So, it is obvious to give the advice to join a raid (training) guild to players that want to start raiding because it is the most possible and fastest way to kill a boss if you have 0 clue of how raids work. There is nothing hilarious to see in such post/advice.

kdaddy.5431:

Like everyone is missing the point that raids are meant for certain build types for certain classes.
Can you do it with others of course but when you are a pug/new/struggling with the mechanics being off the meta will get you kicked.

Well, how was it during dungeon high peak? Most lfgs were looking for 1 ps, several eles, a thief, and a mes, sometimes a guard. In fractals mostly the same thing. The builds were set! A ps had to be a ps, otherwise groups were kicking. Eles were there for high dps – otherwise: kick. Mes for time warp, portals, reflects etc. – otherwise: kick.
Of course dungeons could be completed with non-static builds but the majority of players in instanced content ran the most known builds because it was the fastest way to have success. And that, my dear, hasn’t changed much – look at most of T4 fractal lfgs: “exp” + “have enough AR” + “necro”, “druid”, “ps”, “chrono”. Even there the need for special classes and proper builds is high!
The only difference is that raids are a bit harder so that pugs need to run the best builds or otherwise struggle. And nobody wants to struggle after so much practice – it’s just a logical thing.

Finally, if someone is making a statement like “Raids are poorly designed.” he will surely be countered by raiders killing bosses regularly. Such statement is ridiculous in their and especially in my eyes. Look at the raid lfg. It’s full during prime time. You can count all dungeon paths together from Ascalon to Arah and there are still more groups and players searching for raids than dungeons. I doubt that all these players think that raids are poorly designed. That would be an insane assumption. ^^
So yeah, criticism is good but it has to be based on facts and not personal feelings.

Im ok with the majority of these comments except you trying to bring in dungeons and fractals.

I have a rev with 126 AR and ive completed fractal up to 97. I cant do 100 because of AR but there is no other requirement, my friend who mains thief (the person you say you dont believe only plays one class) gets comments from time to time for playing thief in fractals but he has completed all 75-100 fractals. The people who make those LFG posts in fractals are typically looked at like myself and others are people who will need to be carried. The only req in fracs is ar the rest is your ability to play.

Now dungeons, when dungeons first came out they were very hard because at level 40 you were doing AC and CM which needed level 80 armor. Not to mention all the bugs dungeons had when it first came out. Only 2 dungeons really gave people problems back in the day and it was COE and Arah. Coe because of the lava boss fight and Arah because lyssa and others needed high dps to take down and other bosses you needed high toughness and vitality. People adjusted and carried around 2 types of gear when you could only have exotic gear.

Dungeons are insanely easy now, with the 30-30-30 set up vs the old 30-30-10. Also the edition of ascended everything and the insane amount of boons everyone now gets.

Lastly i agree that his comment on raids being poorly designed is not accurate. Raids are enjoyable but i do agree with his comment that so much of what Anet did in core GW2 was new and innovative. You yourself has agreed to the effect that yes the meta builds are what most people want in there raids with a few exceptions.

Thats really what im trying to point out. In this forum the top 4-5 threads are about being kicked or not running the exact meta build for a raid. Some have said they tried joining raid groups. ( we all know that not all raid guilds are equally skilled)

1 person thread is a person who like i said has alot of other things and he made a full zerk necro and no one wants him. Yes he can play the other parts of the game but when 90% of HOT is raids and Anet has made select builds far superior to others it becomes a fail.

Not to you, me, him or the people defending raids but to those who paid for HOT and committed alot of time and effort to a class/style of play they wanted but get told to buy exotic gear for another class and learn that class.

Im not disagreeing with you on the set up, i find that we are saying alot of the same things but using them to give our own points which are opposites. Yes the raiders are many and play very well but i have met more then enough people who say they dont raid because people/guilds are not alway open to other potential team build comps.

To me thats where the game starts to lose people like WvW when Anet made changes no one liked. Like PvP now where HOT specs are so spammy and so strong. People are posting again 1 hr + que times in ranked which is so much more then 20 min. Im not saying the game is dying but when all the game gives is raids and there isnt a ton of openness to how they get down. It potentially kill things imo.

Raids don’t discriminate classes, people do. You can clear any boss with one player of each class.
Pug raids will always choose the easy way over the fair one so get yourself a dedicated raid who will let you play whatever you like. I’ve been playing nothing but engi since the very first week of Wing 1 and we have a dedicated necro player as well.

Krag.6210:

Raids don’t discriminate classes, people do. You can clear any boss with one player of each class.

I mean, you can clear with virtually anything if you play well enough, but in reality how many groups are clearing without a druid or ele for heals? How about a mesmer? How about a warrior? The answer is virtually none, and it’s not just because players like to pick and choose their favorites – these classes are actually just more vital in raids than other classes. You can say “raids don’t discriminate” but that isn’t true in any reasonable sense – the mechanics in raid fights make certain classes & builds much more preferable than others.

There isn’t anything wrong with some imbalance up to a point because it’s impossible to avoid, but I would say that with the current combination of class mechanics and raid mechanics, certain classes are much, much too useful in raids relative to others.

Krag.6210:

Pug raids will always choose the easy way over the fair one so get yourself a dedicated raid who will let you play whatever you like. I’ve been playing nothing but engi since the very first week of Wing 1 and we have a dedicated necro player as well.

Yeah I’m an engi main and I love playing it in raids but the fact is that engi has few useful abilities that can’t be replicated by another class. And the ones it does have (e.g. function gyro, bulwark gyro, traited elixer gun) cost more DPS than they’re worth because engineer relies so heavily on using all of its utility skill slots alongside explosives/firearms/tools in order to match other classes’ DPS.

This is just how it works, accept and adapt. Bosses don’t show all their mechanics right at the start of the fight, this means that you need to reach the phase where he shows it, and this will not be done (normal scenario) with a wonky composition. Learning raids is not learning only boss mechanics, is learning the concept of raiding, that includes composition.

EX: (consider normal scenario) How i’m supposed to make some progress on Gorseval, if no tempests to take care of orbs? it will get out of control, and the fail is almost guaranteed. How i’m supposed to make some progress on Vale Guardian if there’s not enough condi damage to kill the red guardian?

Even on training people want to reach a desirable result, and a good composition contributes for this to happen. Treat compositions on raids, like soccer, soccer is played by 11 people, you don’t see usually a team playing, even on training, with a wonky composition like 4 Defender/Holding Midfielders, or 3 Right-Wingers, it will simply not work.

Mitch.4781:

FrostDraco.8306:

I suggest some of these people trying to take a power necro into raids, either as dps or tank. See how quickly you get hit by the door.

Since it is my main, if I’m not in a guild, i won’t get a chance raid, and training squads wont accept me.

I can switch to other classes, and have told other people that, but all they wanna talk about is me switching my necro to vipers. The one thing I say I will not(I spent 300 g to swap and hated how it plays). But they never hit me back up to bring another class.

Any clue what’s up with that?

I certainly understand the Op’s frustration, however most people are meta sheep. They only want the exact meta comp, because it’s been proven to work. Deviations or experimentation aren’t done by the average raider, only the ones who have the spare time and know the mechanics. I suggest joining one of those guilds, Like king and DnT. They have more tolerance for slight deviations of the meta than sheeple it seems.

Best thing you can do is know the fight, and your class/build, so that when the time comes to perform you know you at least got your part covered.

It’s sad but that’s how it is. If people are that desperate for new raiders, but cant accept a slightly lower dps build, or a good build that is slightly off meta, then don’t waste your time. Chances are they still have a lot to learn if they can not think for themselves.

Well like always, you can create your own groups. Firstly, after chronotank, Necro tank is very popular and no one will get upset at a decent necro tank. So you’re flat at wrong on that. We actually occasionally have a power necro in our raid sometimes and he’s very decent. He isn’t massively experienced but we usually one shot VG and Gors. He is in a different time zone, yet makes extra effort to come and I have a lot of respect for that. Personally, I’m more likely to take someone like that than a meta build who is not punctual, doesn’t listen or gets kittenty with other players.

However, part of a balanced team is you have to prepare and be able to alternate depending on what the fights themselves actually require and what other people in your raid are bringing. He knows viper necro is very good so he is making an alternate set in his own time. Doesn’t mean his power set will be redundant, but he will have more options. Apart from Gors, most of the other fights are not huge DPS races anyways but rely on Mechanics. As a power necro , he can still bring say, epidemic to Sloth and epi the slublings back to Sloth and use plague signet. But Knowing when to drop the posion and when you’re fixated is more important than any of that. Dead dps don’t dps; no matter their class.

People seem to only see things from their point of view. A raid relies on 10 people to do a role and consistent raiders should be able to change and swap roles as and when required. It’s just as unfair for you to stubbornly stick to your preferred class and role, just as it is for people to dismiss you because of it.

Compromise is everything.

It’s almost like you didn’t even read my post.

“I can switch to other classes, and have told other people that, but all they wanna talk about is me switching my necro to vipers. The one thing I say I will not(I spent 300 g to swap and hated how it plays). But they never hit me back up to bring another class.”

Did you forget i clearly said I’m able to play other classes/roles, but i will NOT change my necro, and only my necro.

How is that “unfair”? So you are basically saying i should do whatever people tell me, no matter what, and my desires are irrelevant. Gotcha.

As for necro tank, I’m aware it’s a thing, but i have personally never encountered a group that will bother using one when chrono’s are a dime a dozen.

FrostDraco.8306:

…all they wanna talk about is me switching my necro to vipers. … I will not …[but]… they never hit me back up to bring another class.

…I’m able to play other classes/roles,
…So you are basically saying i should do whatever people tell me, no matter what, and my desires are irrelevant.

The fewer limits you impose, the more groups that can make use of your talents. Since it appears that groups aren’t interested in non-viper necros, it seems you’d be more likely to find compatible groups if you offer one of your other prof/builds first. Once you’re in, you can suggest that you might be more effective running your type of necro and give the leader a chance to evaluate that.

In other words, your desires are only irrelevant for deciding what other people should accept or not, when selecting their team.

In dungeons and low-tier fractals (and some would argue even high tier fractals), the team composition hardly matters and consequently skilled players don’t much care what folks bring (with important exceptions for certain situations). In raids, composition matters a lot and so the choice isn’t up to the individual; it needs to be up to the raid leader.

Your desires are relevant in deciding what jobs to seek, but they aren’t enough to determine if you get hired. You also have to be able/willing to do what the job requires.