100% boon uptime is bad design.

100% boon uptime is bad design.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

100% boon uptime shoehorns classes into a rather boring playstyles that have to upkeep perma buffs taking all the panning away.
There’s no sense of burst because theres no cordinating bufffs and preplaning and calling out when something will be available.
Might, fury, quickness, alacrity, banners spirits all can be kept perma and make the compat boring and braindead.
Regen should be the same with certain build focushing more on hots and other builds on burst heals and other on both.
Make permanately upkeeping buffs a personal thing something that you have to do because your own dps or personal bufff uptime depends on it.
Have the aoe buffs as small windows of opportunity to coordinate heals or cc or burst.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

So, completely redesign all skills that provide buffs and all boss encounters because you don’t like it the way it is?

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Posted by: Samnang.1879

Samnang.1879

No matter what they change, people are going to follow whatever the meta says. So in the end there’s no such thing as variety/diversity in builds, only singularity. The only thing they can change is the boss’ mechanics so that people have to change their build a bit, for example in deimos, the chrono has to tank on minstrel gear.

So in conclusion, they don’t need to fix things that aren’t broke. And should start on fixing things that ARE broke, for example… whenever I’m in character select, and double click a toon, my game crashes… what the hell is wrong with GW2? I thought it’s my old PC, but I got a brand new PC and it still does that. WTF is this bug that’s been here for 2+ years….

Please nerf bag types instead of class skills!

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

No matter what they change, people are going to follow whatever the meta says. So in the end there’s no such thing as variety/diversity in builds, only singularity. The only thing they can change is the boss’ mechanics so that people have to change their build a bit, for example in deimos, the chrono has to tank on minstrel gear.

Uh chrono doesn’t need minstrels for anything….It’s just a failsafe set of stats.

What the need to do is have more diverse mechanics on bosses/PvE that remove or otherwise turn off status effects to temporarily reduce the influx of always on power like spirits/banners/passives etc…

Additionally complete immunity skills probably need to be reworked as that’s just silly.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

On that basis, anything that is being used in the meta is bad design rather than clever players having figured out how to min-max the existing mechanics. No one is forced to play 100% boon uptime or use chrono as the tank; people do it because it’s efficient.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

Its not about meta or not nor that bosses need a rework.
Is that the current system is a birung ine and it diesnt nececarily promote skillful play to the best of ots ability. Having ckasses be picked because they are just supposts (other than healing classes is meh).

Meanwhile having classes that can have decent dps and good supoort but not like the 100 uptime and other great dos and but in terms of support would nake the game more exciting.

Proof? The fact that chronos and ps are rare compaired to dps’. Also not oerna buffs makes the gameplay less brainded since to get the msot out of the group’s capabilties you nedd to coordinate and abjust with the small window you get with quickbess might bursts etc.

Also calling something bad design isnt nececeraly calling it broken. Im saying that the combat system in this game has huge potential and its been wasted on oerma upkeeping press 1 and forget midsets.

(edited by zealex.9410)

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

I tend to agree that 100% boon/buff uptime is bad design.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

I also agree with the OP. Meaningful choices and opportunity costs make for a more interesting game. They also promote build diversity, which is good for the game as a whole. Maximum boon up-time is achieved far too easily, and with little given up.

The way the game is designed, boons are the main way to maximize effectiveness. Having them constantly available may not be quite as boring as not having them at all (and being stuck at whatever effectiveness level that represented) but it is far less interesting than having to pick and choose when to use what. If one always has max effectiveness, there is no possibility that a wrong choice can lead to failure. Without a chance to fail, there is no challenge.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

100% boon uptime shoehorns classes into a rather boring playstyles that have to upkeep perma buffs taking all the panning away.
There’s no sense of burst because theres no cordinating bufffs and preplaning and calling out when something will be available.
Might, fury, quickness, alacrity, banners spirits all can be kept perma and make the compat boring and braindead.
Regen should be the same with certain build focushing more on hots and other builds on burst heals and other on both.
Make permanately upkeeping buffs a personal thing something that you have to do because your own dps or personal bufff uptime depends on it.
Have the aoe buffs as small windows of opportunity to coordinate heals or cc or burst.

Yup.

Its bad. Along with too many passives and general HoT powercreep. Or rather, this whole boon thing IS a large part of that powercreep, opposite side of which is condi powercreep.

I would like to see not just a reduction in boon uptime, but in general return of more trade offs, so squishies get squishier, while tanks get tankier but with even less DPS and healers can heal more but be less tanky and do less DPS. Likewise, the high boon generation and boon uptime builds need trade offs, right now I’m not seeing enough and in many cases (build / class dependant) any.

Also, remove condi spam from non-condi builds. They shouldn’t have it. They provide too many cover condis and overwhelming the cleanse builds (making them either less effective, or entirely ineffective).

Speaking of super bad game design though, heres another example:

Make end game content timing based (especially DPS) and not provide any decent in-game tools to actually see that timing, instead, rely on 3rd party and “fan made” tools for actual content completion.

Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF

(edited by Tongku.5326)

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I personally think that boon availability, uptime, and sharing are all too high and that the gameplay would benefit from severe nerfs to all forms of boons.

They should be rare, never available on weapon skills (i.e. only on healing, utility, and elite skills), short unless specced for duration, and rarely shared with others.

When all group content involves (very easily) maintaining 25 stacks of might, fury, and quickness at all times, you haven’t made combat more interesting, you’ve just set the default DPS to a higher level. DPS Boons shouldn’t be “always on” in a fight, but rather timed to coincide with spike windows. That would reward intelligent use of skills versus basic rotation maintenance.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: DirtyDan.4759

DirtyDan.4759

Ask the mesmer if he as 100% boon duration. If he says yes, kick him. Problem solved.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

I also wonna say that im ok with with perma keeping buffs on a personal lvl.

For example mesmers have alacrity being a solo thing they need to manage and upkeep to 100 while quickness returns to being an effect. This would ofc call for buffs to the mesmer’s dmg so it will feel good to see good numbers and have that utility for when its needed.

For warr having banners stay for like 15-20 seconds up (enough for awhole burst rota from the group and the same cd they are now at. Meanwhile ps is changed so might is harder to come by at high stacks and can maxing out on might is a 1 or 2 time thing in a fight. with an average of might been kept as a stable might output (prob 8 to 12). While also ea is changed a slef buff the warion must 100% upkeep for personal dps. These changes would ofc call for buffs in their dps.

Big enough to normalise their dmg compaired to selfish dps classes but not enough that supposrt less dps are outclassed.

A good example is gaurd imo where you need to time and weave the f1 with skills utils for max dps outpit while perma keeping stuff like rtal for personal benefit and giving small boon support through symbols.

Druids Gotl should come from most likely the elite woth a bigger cd giving 15-20 sec of max gotl for a 60-90 sec cd while if you are a healler you upkeep a personal +xxx healing power buff or % healing buff and while you play more offensive builds perma upkeep personally spotter. And ofc not having perma fury lul.

(edited by zealex.9410)

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

100% boon uptime shoehorns classes into a rather boring playstyles that have to upkeep perma buffs taking all the panning away.
There’s no sense of burst because theres no cordinating bufffs and preplaning and calling out when something will be available.
Might, fury, quickness, alacrity, banners spirits all can be kept perma and make the compat boring and braindead.
Regen should be the same with certain build focushing more on hots and other builds on burst heals and other on both.
Make permanately upkeeping buffs a personal thing something that you have to do because your own dps or personal bufff uptime depends on it.
Have the aoe buffs as small windows of opportunity to coordinate heals or cc or burst.

There are way too many buffs that would have to be coordinated for a good burst. It would only lead to much frustration and blames. In other words, it would be bad design.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

No not really the boon system simplefies that since the goto boons are might and furry.

Quickness should be an effect instead of a boon so boon durr doesnt work on it because of how broken quickness is to begin with.

The rest will be personal buff every class will have to upkeep to the best of their ability for their own effectivenes’ sake

And no ots not a broken system its been proven to works in mmos for years. Gw2 with the combat design and an inteligent buff debuff system could easily take the crow as the best combat system. A big task but that change would make every pve at least experience all the better and more enganging. And prob even wvw as well.

On a second thought something like boon durr was just a big mistake and it would only bee good for healing since some classes play more of a hot build rather than a bursty healing one.

(edited by zealex.9410)

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

100% boon uptime shoehorns classes into a rather boring playstyles that have to upkeep perma buffs taking all the panning away.
There’s no sense of burst because theres no cordinating bufffs and preplaning and calling out when something will be available.
Might, fury, quickness, alacrity, banners spirits all can be kept perma and make the compat boring and braindead.
Regen should be the same with certain build focushing more on hots and other builds on burst heals and other on both.
Make permanately upkeeping buffs a personal thing something that you have to do because your own dps or personal bufff uptime depends on it.
Have the aoe buffs as small windows of opportunity to coordinate heals or cc or burst.

Yup.

Its bad. Along with too many passives and general HoT powercreep. Or rather, this whole boon thing IS a large part of that powercreep, opposite side of which is condi powercreep.

I would like to see not just a reduction in boon uptime, but in general return of more trade offs, so squishies get squishier, while tanks get tankier but with even less DPS and healers can heal more but be less tanky and do less DPS. Likewise, the high boon generation and boon uptime builds need trade offs, right now I’m not seeing enough and in many cases (build / class dependant) any.

Also, remove condi spam from non-condi builds. They shouldn’t have it. They provide too many cover condis and overwhelming the cleanse builds (making them either less effective, or entirely ineffective).

Speaking of super bad game design though, heres another example:

Make end game content timing based (especially DPS) and not provide any decent in-game tools to actually see that timing, instead, rely on 3rd party and “fan made” tools for actual content completion.

Raids are kinda clear enough on when you are supposed to dos not dps deal with mechanics etc. As for calling out when aoe buff will be coming we dont need a program to tell you that. Thats on each player that provides aoe buff to call out 10-15s before he uses them so ppl can prepare. With experience that also becomes smoother.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

There needs to be another type of counter boon in the game a duration -% effect. Its very silly to have 100% up time of any type of boon. Its even worst when its things like the powerful boons.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

There needs to be another type of counter boon in the game a duration -% effect. Its very silly to have 100% up time of any type of boon. Its even worst when its things like the powerful boons.

I dont think adding more stuff would help tbh but im not a designer so i cant tell you either.

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

I agree in spirit, but Im not sure the proposed solution would fix the underlying issue.

Groups will still look for builds that can maximize uptime of particular boons, most notably might, quickness and alacrity, even if they aren’t 100%. In fact, it is more likely to exacerbate the issue, encouraging groups to bring 3 chronos or might sharing warriors.

It isn’t an easy issue to solve and i don’t pretend to know the math. My first reaction is the one Ive seen many share – boons need to cap at 10 people. That alone would lessen the demand for particular professions in more difficult content. Beyond that, mesmers need a high dps build for PVE that is separate from the boon sharing build.

Again, I agree that something needs to be done to change the current boon sharing meta and encourage more profession/build diversity, but im not sure eliminating 100% uptime is the answer.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

There needs to be another type of counter boon in the game a duration -% effect. Its very silly to have 100% up time of any type of boon. Its even worst when its things like the powerful boons.

I dont think adding more stuff would help tbh but im not a designer so i cant tell you either.

The game already hit its max duration + with out even trying out side of nerfing a LOT of effects that will make every one unhappy why not add in another effects that simply counters it.

Say a high duration -% so boons fall off faster. Unlike a strip or corruption its a more easier to have effect. Maybe tie it into cripple a condi effect that are not that strong on there own.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

that doesnt really solve it and it will still make ppl angry. Condi cleanses are so ez to come by in pve that it wont make a difference it would also require most of the encounters to have it been added so idk. Meanwhile raids canalready be done withlow boons. And even without weapons for that matter.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

100% boon uptime shoehorns classes into a rather boring playstyles that have to upkeep perma buffs taking all the panning away.
There’s no sense of burst because theres no cordinating bufffs and preplaning and calling out when something will be available.
Might, fury, quickness, alacrity, banners spirits all can be kept perma and make the compat boring and braindead.
Regen should be the same with certain build focushing more on hots and other builds on burst heals and other on both.
Make permanately upkeeping buffs a personal thing something that you have to do because your own dps or personal bufff uptime depends on it.
Have the aoe buffs as small windows of opportunity to coordinate heals or cc or burst.

There are way too many buffs that would have to be coordinated for a good burst. It would only lead to much frustration and blames. In other words, it would be bad design.

I disagree with you completely.

First off, being a PVX player in more advanced groups, calling out for buffs, cleanses, heals, CC, effects, etc. etc. is not an issue. We do this in the game every single day, many many many many times over. Its these calls and the team ability to execute that make the game interesting or not. Experienced players often do not need to go by the callouts as they already know what and when they need to do and do it. This is what makes a team more or less skilled. That very thing. Coordination and the teams ability to carry it out. Without it, there is no team skill involved in this game whatsoever.

If you or your group are unable to call out or coordinate on call outs, then that is your personal issue. Rest of us should not be forced to dumbed down gameplay due to your lack of even minimal ability.

2nd maintaining all boons all the time flattens out gameplay. If you remove all boons altogether and lower the needed DPS along with the otehr bars you will have exact same thing, there is no variation. You might as well be playing Doom or an FPS game that doesn’t have any such mechanics.

Variety is the spice of life, flattening it out so everything is homogenous or taking it away makes everything too bland and boring.

Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF

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Posted by: SkyShroud.2865

SkyShroud.2865

Please….don’t.

The last time anet did that was before hot with that shake the meta nonsense. Every once awhile we have to do new builds while the balancing never improve.

Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International Guild
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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

Please….don’t.

The last time anet did that was before hot with that shake the meta nonsense. Every once awhile we have to do new builds while the balancing never improve.

I wouldnt mind a shake up the game balance feels stale atm more so with the rise of condi playstyle.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Is someone going to fund me all the changes i’d have to do to builds on all my characters if said meta shakeup were to happen? No? Ok, then i’ll pass, thank you very much.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Offair.2563

Offair.2563

Remember boonshare meta in wvw. Hope to see it never again there.

Big Babou, Ranger for life.
Madness Rises [Rise] – Banners Hold.
Don’t argue with idiots, they pull you down their level and own you with experience.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

I agree in spirit, but Im not sure the proposed solution would fix the underlying issue.

Groups will still look for builds that can maximize uptime of particular boons, most notably might, quickness and alacrity, even if they aren’t 100%. In fact, it is more likely to exacerbate the issue, encouraging groups to bring 3 chronos or might sharing warriors.

It isn’t an easy issue to solve and i don’t pretend to know the math. My first reaction is the one Ive seen many share – boons need to cap at 10 people. That alone would lessen the demand for particular professions in more difficult content. Beyond that, mesmers need a high dps build for PVE that is separate from the boon sharing build.

Again, I agree that something needs to be done to change the current boon sharing meta and encourage more profession/build diversity, but im not sure eliminating 100% uptime is the answer.

This guy gets it.

Boon duration being permanent does exactly 1 thing:
- it removes boons from group composition and group balancing

Yes, this does make it more boring. Yes, this also means that class composition becomes more flexible since you don’t have to worry about boon uptime on a majority of classes.

Here is what is going to happen if boon duration is not permanent:

- the first classes to go are medium or subpar dps who bring no boons at all
- the next to go are classes that achieve only low boon uptimes for the group
- the classses that remain meta are those that provide sufficient boon and damage to compete in the raid

End result:
- raids are composed of more elementalists and warriors in order to provide maximum might and fury uptime.
- chronos are forced to hold back on quickness and alracrity rotation for key moments of the fight (revenant remain useless since they provide terrible alacrity uptime while sacrificing a lot of damage and providing no quickness)
- the toxicity in group composition and the discrimination against classes is increased 10 fold

If you want to basically have raids be composed of 2-4 different classes while the other 4-6 classes get to whine on the forums about them not getting taken along: making another balancing factor important is the way to go.

Don’t expect your favorit class to be one of the select few that wins the fotm lottery though.

(edited by Cyninja.2954)