Guild Wars 2

I think the community needs to be reminded that this game is still very young. Leave your feedback by all means, but man have some manners. Many of the devs that worked really hard to create the game are active in this forum, have some respect for them when talking about things they may have hand a hand in designing.

Hell if you don’t like the current state of things, you are not paying a subscription fee, go do something else for a bit and check back later.

I’m sitting at roughly 160 hours of play, and I enjoyed every bit of it. Sure I get frustrated with bugged events the same as the next guy. However its early in the life of this game, I’ll send in my bug report and be on my way.

Thanks AreanNet for a great game, I waited years for it to come out and I’m happy to wait a bit longer while you guys perfect it.

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

Eventually you start to realize that responding to these people and actually trying to be constructive is a waste of time.
I’ve realized it.

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

If that’s the case then those people who worked hard on this game can find comfort by looking at simple data reports such as the ones Anet released not too long ago of profession, race, etc population charts. I’m sure they could easily find out how many people are still logging in and spending lots of time playing the game, because I’m sure all the people who aren’t happy with the game don’t even bother to log in and play that much anymore. I know I don’t since I hit level 80.

Birdy.4816:

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

No the reality is that it is a miniscule minority of people. Right now on this forum there is 35 pages at 29 threads per page. Average of about 23 replies per thread. So 23345 posts on this forum alone, lets say it’s 24000. Suggestions is higher ofc, 63 pages but the average seems to be lower, about 17 per thread average, so about 31059, lets call it 32000. So about 56000 between these two forums where there’s likely a higher concentration of complaints and naysayers. How many copies did GW2 sell? 2 Million+?

So even then these two forums, assuming every post is unique (which they aren’t, not even close) could only possibly account for 2.8% of the game’s current players. How many of that 56000 do you imagine are people who are displeased with the game? Half? I’d wager it to be a lot less than half. Probably closer to 1/3 of that and I truly believe that to be a generous estimate. Even more so when you consider these aren’t all people who are dissatisfied enough to be quitting, but maybe just want to see some changes but are otherwise happy and keep playing.

So for that “vocal minority” to become any sort of majority is a long way off…

This is a tricky issue. On the one hand, yes the game is only 3 weeks old. On the other hand, elite players tend to eat through content faster than a rat can eat its way out of a cheese cage. If those elite players quit, its going to hurt the community because they will drag a ton of guildies with them to other games.

I know you people hate talking about WoW, but MoP comes out in a week, and if people are bored playing GW2 come next Tuesday, don’t think they won’t buy the expansion and switch games. I’ve seen this happen to too many MMOs. They start out great, but the company screws up end game progression, and that’s what sinks it. Once an MMO community is gone, it typically does not return. So there’s a small window of time Arenanet has to convince powergamers to hang around. Either a patch with some endgame content, or a promise of one to come in the near future.

I read multiple GW2 message boards, and I’m seeing the same complaint on every single one of them: the endgame progression is not sufficient/entertaining. No one wants to farm for hours on gear that just “looks” better, no one wants to WvW without some kind of progression.

Progression that matters post-80 is the thing that GW2 is lacking. I hope they can fix it quick.

Tradewind.6913:

Birdy.4816:

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

No the reality is that it is a miniscule minority of people. Right now on this forum there is 35 pages at 29 threads per page. Average of about 23 replies per thread. So 23345 posts on this forum alone, lets say it’s 24000. Suggestions is higher ofc, 63 pages but the average seems to be lower, about 17 per thread average, so about 31059, lets call it 32000. So about 56000 between these two forums where there’s likely a higher concentration of complaints and naysayers. How many copies did GW2 sell? 2 Million+?

So even then these two forums, assuming every post is unique (which they aren’t, not even close) could only possibly account for 2.8% of the game’s current players. How many of that 56000 do you imagine are people who are displeased with the game? Half? I’d wager it to be a lot less than half. Probably closer to 1/3 of that and I truly believe that to be a generous estimate. Even more so when you consider these aren’t all people who are dissatisfied enough to be quitting, but maybe just want to see some changes but are otherwise happy and keep playing.

So for that “vocal minority” to become any sort of majority is a long way off…

What does the forum post count matter? the problem exists and is being talked about, that alone is where the slippery slope starts unless the developers act in accordance.

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

In all seriousness, what happens in other MMOs? Take Warcraft for example, just as it’s the only other one I’ve done some raid content with.

You go through the dungeon, and then get a random chance of an elite item coming your way? At least this way the payoff is guaranteed. Besides, if you’ve done EVERYTHING in this game inside a month, you’ve just ruined it for yourself.

At this point, Anet shouldn’t be thinking about expanding content and do what they are doing and sorting out bugs and other issues (let’s not drag dungeons in here).

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

That’s mostly because we are playing and enjoying the game. ^^

Or I would be if Orr was moving.

Birdy.4816:

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

I think the vocal minority is often egotistical enough to believe that they know more and better about what should be done than the creators/developers of the game. I think that’s ridiculous, given that most forum posters know doodly about coding, marketing, business and everything else that it takes to create and support an MMO.

The folks at Arenanet fostered this baby for 7 years. I think they should be given an opportunity to continue to develope their vision. I also think they’re terribly generous to allow the masses to comment so liberally about what’s going on, given that much of the commentary is less than helpful.

In another six months or year, we’ll know much, much more about how their vision is manifesting itself and in that timeframe it would be more reasonable to give the public’s input some credence. Now? Not so much.

Debsylvania.7396:

In another six months or year, we’ll know much, much more about how their vision is manifesting itself and in that timeframe it would be more reasonable to give the public’s input some credence. Now? Not so much.

The problem is, like it or not, gamers are terribly impatient. There won’t be a community left a year from now. Let’s not have this game go the way of SWTOR and WAR. It takes approx. 4 to 12 weeks to kill a fledgling MMO.

Defending the current state of the game is not the way to save it.

While I do agree that the game is still very ‘young’, the people complaining about content or lack thereof do have valid sentiments. Once upon a time when even the most hardcore player would take 1 month+ to reach max level, games had more time to look at things and make changes, now with new MMO’s people are able to achieve max level within a few days of release. There is no time to flesh out end game, and make tweaks to the economy before people are at the end and wondering what they should do now.

There is lots of content, and the level adjustments help you to still have fun exploring low level zones, but not everyone wants that. When they hit what they feel is end-game, they want to fight big stuff and get rewarded for their efforts. I just hit 80 so I have no real opinion on the dungeons, but even looking at monetary rewards, why does a level 70+ event only reward 1.5x as much silver in some cases? Isn’t it odd that a level 5 even can pat 40-50 copper where a level 75 will only pay 1.5-2 silver in some cases?

Anyway, the point is while there are many whines where people don’t listen there are also some valid points, and personally I believe a portion of it does rest on the developers, when you can level so fast all of a sudden your are 80 and you are lost for what to do.

FarFarAway.6579:

Debsylvania.7396:

In another six months or year, we’ll know much, much more about how their vision is manifesting itself and in that timeframe it would be more reasonable to give the public’s input some credence. Now? Not so much.

The problem is, like it or not, gamers are terribly impatient. There won’t be a community left a year from now. Let’s not have this game go the way of SWTOR and WAR. It takes approx. 4 to 12 weeks to kill a fledgling MMO.

Defending the current state of the game is not the way to save it.

Really? You believe that counsel given on these forums by the impatient, cynical and entitled is the prescription for the longterm health of this or any MMO? Okie dokie.

Birdy.4816:

What does the forum post count matter? the problem exists and is being talked about, that alone is where the slippery slope starts unless the developers act in accordance.

Except that group is trying to make broad stroke changes for the other 97% of people who may otherwise be absolutely content or gasp enjoy the game as it stands.

So no, you don’t speak for the rest of us and it’s incredibly egotistical to assume your opinions are more valuable than the rest of us.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

I disagree FarfarAway. There are several games out there that have been going on for years regardless of the negativity spewed in their forums. WoW, EQ & EQ2 come to mind. All those game are the old style raid / gear progression games though.

Time will tell here, but I think Anet rolled a winner with staying power. But just a style of game that will never appeal to everyone. Not unlike GW1 as far as that goes.

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

Insulting people and calling them “casuals” doesn’t boost your viewpoint any. Especially given there is no frame of reference for what you deem to be a “casual” and how you’re above them for whatever reason. Just makes you look like a pedantic child.

Its true, the forums attract outspoken people who DO NOT reflect even 5% of the player base.
These folks think they are 100% correct, and everyone else is 100% wrong.
A small fraction raise genuine concerns that should be adressed, most however think the universe revolves around them and some cosmic force owes them. It doesnt.

Birdy.4816:

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

I agree. Progression (treadmill) is what makes an RPG what it is. A well-masked treadmill is even better, but there has to be some kind of progression. Well-designed endgame progression will take months to complete. The current formula in GW2 just isn’t quite right (yet).

To me the “endgame” of GW2 isn’t that much different from GW1. Many people were not exposed to GW1 and think that GW2 should be more like MMOs they have played. The devs and most players disagree with this minority. GW1 was a hit and continues to be popular to this day.

FarFarAway.6579:

I agree. Progression (treadmill) is what makes an RPG what it is. A well-masked treadmill is even better, but there has to be some kind of progression. Well-designed endgame progression will take months to complete. The current formula in GW2 just isn’t quite right (yet).

GW2 was shaping up to be a great game WITHOUT the gear treadmill. GW1 didn’t have one and it worked out fine. ArenaNet stated numerous times that GW2 wouldn’t have a gear treadmill either and that was one of the things that was great about this game because that is a huge step upwards from the mind numbing grind of EQ/WoW/etc. But at the last minute they decided to go the WoW route.

3 Weeks in and every change has been to make the game more grindy and more WoW-like.

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

Tradewind.6913:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

Insulting people and calling them “casuals” doesn’t boost your viewpoint any. Especially given there is no frame of reference for what you deem to be a “casual” and how you’re above them for whatever reason. Just makes you look like a pedantic child.

Sorry, just tired of being told to “slow down, if your 80 already its a problem with your like” which 99% of you say.

But you know what I mean, people get jealous of raiders and what they have gained and they whine.

You are all the same, people like the content, people like FUN treadmills evolving teams and socializing, not 1-2 boss grinds and tokens.

Yet because alot of you think thats worthless and shouldnt exist, that it is the right thing to do despite being the most popular aspect of MMOs to date.

Because you dont want to do it. instead of being self-cetnered why not encourage them to do it? its just satisfying more users afterall.

callung dungeon crawls treadmills and not this awful end-game and hell alot of the content a “treadmill” is just plain out hypocritical.

Debsylvania.7396:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

Why is having a good strucuted dungeon end-game have to be a wow clone?

Is guild wars a Rift/Warhammer clone because it focusses around un-structured questing? but also gave some? OMG CLONE.

It has battlegrounds OMG WOW/DOAC CLONE

Ect ect, I go on.

Nothing changes if they make a good end-game, nothing about the game you currently like changes whatsoever, it just adds another layer of awesome.

Debsylvania.7396:

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

Why? Its called microtransactions and future expansions.

Do you know how many gems powergamers are purchasing from Arenanet? Yeah, those impatient, cynical types. They don’t like waiting, and many of them are willing to pay $$ so they don’t have to. If you think Arenanet doesn’t care if those types of players run back to WoW, you’re wrong.

You make far too many assumptions and gross hyperbole to really be taken seriously at this point. Case in point I am a “raider” and have been since 2004 in that “other mmo” and I disagree with your viewpoint entirely.

3 weeks old and:

“We don’t want players doing dungeons at a high speed”

“We don’t want players leveling in a reasonable manner by doing story mode dungeons.” (Honestly. The game is grindy as all get out from 1-40. Having story dungeons to level was bliss. Now…they’re garbage.)

“This isn’t their story. It’s Traeherne’s Story.”

“We don’t want players that work hard at searching for a particular crafting material to find it for themselves – instead, we want them to go broke on the Trading Post.”

I mean, I may be a bit ornery from all the “negativity” coming from my guildmates and these patch notes, but… At this point, I feel as if freedom of choice is being taken away from me as a player. It’s turning into a “Log in once a day, do things, and log out” facebook game with a 60 dollar price tag. I feel this is tearing away from the MMO mold a wee bit too much. If they were to come out with an expansion in a week? Wouldn’t bekittento buy it. ANET while doing their job, is simply wringing the necks of the playerbase. If I wanted a game where I was limited, I’d break out of this and play a Nexon MMO like Dragon’s Nest or something.

Who is saying it needs saving? I like how everyone ignores TradeWinds research a few comments up. That tends to happen when forum users make valid posts are arguments. Thay nay-sayers just gloss over the comment and pick out something they can more readily defend themselves against.

What a lot of the treadmill MMO players coming this way seem to forget is that ArenaNet has a built in and very passionate and loyal fan-base. They had at least twice as many customers come over from GW than individual copies of Secret World or WAR sold.

And Swtor went the way it did because it was rushed out incomplete, Bioware ignored player feedback, and EA had the nerve to charge a sub-for it. GW2 has none of those problems; yes, there are bugs. But every piece of software you ever use will have bugs. Some are apparent in minutes under the stress of millions of people, some are a little more illusive.

ArenaNet is not Bioware or FunCom. GuildWars isn’t a new or “fledgling” ip. Three weeks in we have already have multiple updates fixing issues, and adding features. Some of those fixes might not be popular and players are kitten sore Anet nerfed their farm of the week, but are best for the game and players in the long-term.

Something the vocal minority is incredible at is only considering themselves and the next time they log in and not giving a seconds consideration to the community or how the things going on now effect everyone months down the line.

The guys and girls over there have developed tough skin from dealing with the Guru sites for years, I doubt any of the people on here that came from other games they were tired of (but whine about GW2 not being like those other games?) ruffle their feathers at all.

AcidicVision.5498:

Bioware ignored player feedback

Bingo. What you’re reading on this forum is player feedback. Defenders of that other game posted the same kind of defenses you are posting here. I know because I was one of them. Diehard fan. Its stupid. I’m not making that mistake again.

What’s going to ruffle the feathers of Arenanet is a slowdown in their microtransaction activity. And don’t think it won’t happen. Who do you think spends the most cash on gems? Powergamers.

FarFarAway.6579:

AcidicVision.5498:

Bioware ignored player feedback

Bingo. What you’re reading on this forum is player feedback. Defenders of that other game posted the same kind of defenses you are posting here. I know because I was one of them. Diehard fan. Its stupid. I’m not making that mistake again.

What’s going to ruffle the feathers of Arenanet is a slowdown in their microtransaction activity. And don’t think it won’t happen. Who do you think spends the most cash on gems? Powergamers.

Bioware/EA killed swtor before it was even launched. Had nothing to do with ignoring post-launch feedback from the unwashed masses.

FarFarAway.6579:

AcidicVision.5498:

Bioware ignored player feedback

Bingo. What you’re reading on this forum is player feedback. Defenders of that other game posted the same kind of defenses you are posting here. I know because I was one of them. Diehard fan. Its stupid. I’m not making that mistake again.

What’s going to ruffle the feathers of Arenanet is a slowdown in their microtransaction activity. And don’t think it won’t happen. Who do you think spends the most cash on gems? Powergamers.

The microtransactions that kept GW going for years after the last expansion was released were extra char slots, character make-overs, and extra inventory space. The same things you see people talking about buying from the gem store now. Not boosters. Nothing for power gamers. I would bet you a shiny nickle they have sold more dye packs and pet cages than they have consumable boosts.

You are speaking for a niche group. A small niche group. Hardcore players don’t keep the lights on. Which is why Anet has no issue banning the kitten out of them when they become poisonous to the community. As they demonstrated when those “power-gamers” cashed in on a Karma exploit.

And the things beta testers complained about in SWTOR beta were legitimate, game breaking problems and transparent time sinks to keep the subscription rolling. The biggest complaints you are seeing so far from GW2 players is that they have nothing to do after they rushed to 80 (even though they skipped past half of the content to get there), and that they don’t get a pretty enough bauble for their 30 minutes of time. Very very big difference between being fundamentally broken on several major levels, and the self-entitlement some players have that makes them think there should be a grand reward for every small accomplishment.

Debsylvania.7396:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

I could hug you. Seriously, aNet should further embrace their original vision. The last thing I want is another WoW clone.

AcidicVision.5498:

The microtransactions that kept GW going for years after the last expansion was released were extra char slots, character make-overs, and extra inventory space. The same things you see people talking about buying from the gem store now. Not boosters. Nothing for power gamers. I would bet you a shiny nickle they have sold more dye packs and pet cages than they have consumable boosts.

You are speaking for a niche group. A small niche group. Hardcore players don’t keep the lights on. Which is why Anet has no issue banning the kitten out of them when they become poisonous to the community. As they demonstrated when those “power-gamers” cashed in on a Karma exploit.

And the things beta testers complained about in SWTOR beta were legitimate, game breaking problems and transparent time sinks to keep the subscription rolling. The biggest complaints you are seeing so far from GW2 players is that they have nothing to do after they rushed to 80 (even though they skipped past half of the content to get there), and that they don’t get a pretty enough bauble for their 30 minutes of time. Very very big difference between being fundamentally broken on several major levels, and the self-entitlement some players have that makes them think there should be a grand reward for every small accomplishment.

You do realize you can convert gems into gold, right? There really is no limit to what gem purchases can be used for.

Btw, way to call powergamers exploiters. That’s a pretty big assumption to make. The “small niche” of powergamers are what drive the success of MMOs. They lead guilds. Guildies follow them. When they leave, the majority leaves soon after. It happens in every MMO with the exception of that one some people still play, but even there, the community has eroded.

GW1 was not an MMO, btw, and I’m sure Arenanet intends to do more with GW2 than just “keep it going”. They didn’t design an MMO just for the benefit of ex-GW players. They designed it because its hugely profitable, and the bigger the community, the more profitable it is.

The nice thing about endgame progression is that players don’t have to participate if they’d prefer to level another character, explore, or just pvp. Having something for everyone just means that more players keep playing.

Nope, not a pretty big assumption. That is a pretty safe assumption. The initial outbreak came in large part from people watching streams, while they were playing a game. I mean, yeah you could say it could have been house mom Betty that likes to double dose her gaming sessions while the kids are at school, but my money is it being a power gamer that is watching streams, on voice chat and playing the game at the same time. From them it spread like wild-fire.

Also, more was done with GW than “keeping it going”. After the last box expansion there was still free content being added. Actually a lot more free content added than most games with a sub gave you.

But what you are trying to say is that if all of the “hardcore players” ran off to Panda land next week, it would shut down GW2. And that’s far from the case. It’s actually incredibly arrogant. Akin to saying that if MLG quit hosting Halo or CoD tournaments that the games wouldn’t still be massively commercially successful.

I have well over 300 hours in GW so far. I wouldn’t consider that casual at all. I lead a fairly large guild and we handle the tougher content. I also competitively play fighting games and shooters. So I can say pretty confidently that something every hardcore, competitive community has in common: They whine too much and think they are more important than they are.

3 weeks since release and there are still bugged skill points in Orr. Yeah sounds like we owe them an apology for having criticism.

Zen.1740:

3 weeks since release and there are still bugged skill points in Orr. Yeah sounds like we owe them an apology for having criticism.

Stop the presses, gw2 is the first mmo to have bugs!

Zen.1740:

3 weeks since release and there are still bugged skill points in Orr. Yeah sounds like we owe them an apology for having criticism.

Out of curiosity, what was the last piece of software you used, consisting of over a million lines of code, developed by over 100 people simultaneously, and under the stress of tens of thousands of people at any given moment of any day, that was completely bug free?

Actually, that might be a bit tough. I’m sorry. Unrealistic expectations. Instead of limiting it to your use, tell me the last time a piece of software like that ever existed anywhere…

Tradewind.6913:

Zen.1740:

3 weeks since release and there are still bugged skill points in Orr. Yeah sounds like we owe them an apology for having criticism.

Stop the presses, gw2 is the first mmo to have bugs!

They really should specify what bugged skill points they fixed in the patch notes.

Or would that DISPEL THE ILLUSION OF FINDING THE SKILLPOINTS YOURSELF IN YOUR EXPLORATORY ADVENTURES in the no-gold-allowed-unless-you-exploited-and-got-away-with-it land of Guild Wars 2?

The people would shut up about it once they saw “Hey we fixed <X> <Y> <Z> in Metrica Province, <¿> <å> <?> in Straits of Devastation, and <?> in Malchior’s Leap. We’re still handling more, but those were the primary fixes this patch in terms of skill points.”

AcidicVision.5498:

Zen.1740:

3 weeks since release and there are still bugged skill points in Orr. Yeah sounds like we owe them an apology for having criticism.

Out of curiosity, what was the last piece of software you used, consisting of over a million lines of code, developed by over 100 people simultaneously, and under the stress of tens of thousands of people at any given moment of any day, that was completely bug free?

Actually, that might be a bit tough. I’m sorry. Unrealistic expectations. Instead of limiting it to your use, tell me the last time a piece of software like that ever existed anywhere…

Guess which logical fallacies you used in your post.

First of all, there are over 200 people working on it, not 100. This in itself would make it twice as likely that the work will get done.

Second of all, the tools that ArenaNet use are in constant development and have been around since GW1 which was a relatively stable game with frequent updates and events. GW2 doesn’t suddenly become some prototype space-age invention. It’s a video game, made on dated software, been in development since like 2007.

Skill points are a very integral part of the game’s design – they are needed to purchase a handful of skills that become available for your character to use! Do you not think that these systems should be fully tested and working way before the public got their hands on it?

The very first dungeon. Ascalonian Catacombs. The very first explorable path.

Keep Hoggins alive while the gravelings spawn!

This might at first sound like a relatively simple process. An enemy spawns, and when it dies, it triggers another spawn, and so on.

Yet the reality is different, because while you’re standing over a graveling burrow, and destroy it, if you are within a certain distance of a door, you teleport beyond it and become useless to your team!

This dungeon was in development in around early 2011 if I’m not mistaken. We all remember hearing about how awesomely difficult it was, making World of Warcraft seem tame and easy! Why is this still bugged?

Something internally has changed at ArenaNet. This would have been patched early in GW1.

AcidicVision.5498:

But what you are trying to say is that if all of the “hardcore players” ran off to Panda land next week, it would shut down GW2. And that’s far from the case. It’s actually incredibly arrogant. Akin to saying that if MLG quit hosting Halo or CoD tournaments that the games wouldn’t still be massively commercially successful.

I have well over 300 hours in GW so far. I wouldn’t consider that casual at all. I lead a fairly large guild and we handle the tougher content. I also competitively play fighting games and shooters. So I can say pretty confidently that something every hardcore, competitive community has in common: They whine too much and think they are more important than they are.

No, I’m not saying it would shut down GW2, but it will impact the playerbase and eventually will impact the success of expansions and gem sales, and its not arrogant because I’m not a powergamer anymore. I’m a very casual player now days. I’m level 60, and trucking along at my slow pace perfectly happy. But I am in a guild full of players who chew through content and I am scared they are going to quit, because that’s what always happens. It happened in Aion, WAR, & SWTOR. Each of those games my guild quit because of a lack of endgame.

All it would take to keep them around is some end game gear progression via raids and/or realm levels via WvW.

Additionally, I want to know that when I hit lvl 80 that I have a clear path from there to continue progressing (towards something meaningful) until Arenanet introduces the next expansion. Maybe that’s asking for too much, but I hear a lot of others asking for the same exact thing. Are we really the minority? I’m not so sure about that.

FarFarAway.6579:

AcidicVision.5498:

But what you are trying to say is that if all of the “hardcore players” ran off to Panda land next week, it would shut down GW2. And that’s far from the case. It’s actually incredibly arrogant. Akin to saying that if MLG quit hosting Halo or CoD tournaments that the games wouldn’t still be massively commercially successful.

I have well over 300 hours in GW so far. I wouldn’t consider that casual at all. I lead a fairly large guild and we handle the tougher content. I also competitively play fighting games and shooters. So I can say pretty confidently that something every hardcore, competitive community has in common: They whine too much and think they are more important than they are.

No, I’m not saying it would shut down GW2, but it will impact the playerbase and eventually will impact the success of expansions and gem sales, and its not arrogant because I’m not a powergamer anymore. I’m a very casual player now days. I’m level 60, and trucking along at my slow pace perfectly happy. But I am in a guild full of players who chew through content and I am scared they are going to quit, because that’s what always happens. It happened in Aion, WAR, & SWTOR. Each of those games my guild quit because of a lack of endgame.

All it would take to keep them around is some end game gear progression via raids and/or realm levels via WvW.

Additionally, I want to know that when I hit lvl 80 that I have a clear path from there to continue progressing (towards something meaningful) until Arenanet introduces the next expansion. Maybe that’s asking for too much, but I hear a lot of others asking for the same exact thing. Are we really the minority? I’m not so sure about that.

You’d think, after “chewing through” all of those formerly monthly subscription based MMOs, (I assume you played them then, as Aion and SWTOR have only recently gone free to play) you’d realize that NO game can meet the expectations that you have. You suggest “all it would take…” when those other games couldn’t meet those demands, either. What makes you think this or any game could keep up?

Don’t you think it’s unfair to foist your unreasonable expectations on a game that, from the beginning, said it was going to have no subscriptions and was going to be nontraditional in terms of endgame?

Well I am for one pretty worried, as they are now removing topics with legitimate critique or player concerns that they do not like.

Zen.1740:

Guess which logical fallacies you used in your post.

First of all, there are over 200 people working on it, not 100. This in itself would make it twice as likely that the work will get done…

Your lack of understanding of software development didn’t answer my question. 200 people are not touching the code. 200 people aren’t even touching the tools that use the code.

But just to humor you, if they had, the more people that touch the code the more likely the chance to create bugs. Not less.

Also, tidbit of information for self-edification, as a general rule, bugs cost twice as much to fix as the initial feature cost to implement. So yes testing is done. But things are missed. Sometimes even simple things are missed, especially during crunch-time. So developer’s do no intentionally ignore bugs, or turn a blind eye. Or delay fixing it longer than necessary.

Lastly, Windows was built on the NT framework for over 10 years. And still had bugs. Similar stories with photoshop. And DirectX, and OpenGL.

There is no answer to my question other than:

“There has never been and never will be. I fully understand this not being a flawless piece of software and there might be stuff that isn’t working exactly as intended a few weeks after launch. I understand that what looks like a simple problem may have multiple causes and it takes time to discover the issue, design and implement a solution, test the solution, regressively test everything the solution could affect, and then deploy in a way and time that will be least obstructive to players. Perhaps by holding on to the patch to bundle with others that are currently scheduled to reduce over-all down time. For now I will try to be patient and enjoy other facets of the game or even go outside and play for a little while and hold off on being overly criticizing until an unreasonable amount of time passes.”

There. Try that. It might make you feel better.

The game’s only been out 3 weeks – but with a development time of around 5 years, it should have been obvious that Endgame was going to be a problem (at least for some – by no means all). After all, GW2 was first announced back in 2007.

Queue the groans as ever GW1 development was announced around about April 2003, and the actual game released in April 2005 (development time of around 2 years).
Now EOTN (the final instalment) was released in late 2007 – meaning the entire GW story ( from beginning to end) took place over about 4 years – 2003 to 2007.

With 5 years of development (more than all 4 instalments of GW1), I think many people have been disappointed with the End Game………………………again, not all by any means – some will love the new ideas and concepts (we’re all different).

AcidicVision.5498:

TL:DR

You’re defending ArenaNet because you are brand loyal and have an emotional investment in your purchase. You are rationalizing the state of the game because of your cognitive bias. My criticism of the game makes you uncomfortable, to the extent that you had to use more logical fallacies and rant about irrelevant things to try to make yourself feel as if you have scored a victory.

The game shouldn’t have these basic bugs in it. They are BASIC, i.e. a low level programmer should be able to implement the code correctly before being checked by a higher-paid programmer. What does it take to fix an NPC that won’t react to a player click? 3 lines of code? Rocket science, obviously.

Debsylvania.7396:

You’d think, after “chewing through” all of those formerly monthly subscription based MMOs, (I assume you played them then, as Aion and SWTOR have only recently gone free to play) you’d realize that NO game can meet the expectations that you have. You suggest “all it would take…” when those other games couldn’t meet those demands, either. What makes you think this or any game could keep up?

Don’t you think it’s unfair to foist your unreasonable expectations on a game that, from the beginning, said it was going to have no subscriptions and was going to be nontraditional in terms of endgame?

I only mentioned the games that failed, not the ones that succeeded. The same players who quit all those games played DAoC for many years. The reason is because of the endgame RvR progression. It took years to get the highest realm rank in DAoC. Not to mention that the RvR was insanely fun, but without the realm ranks, wouldn’t have been so addictive.

Players continue to play WoW (or did for many years) because of the endgame progression.

I’ve yet to see an MMO succeed long-term that did not offer continual progression. If you know of one, go ahead and share it.