(edited by Recycle.5493)
4v30: AOE or teamwork?
This isn’t really relevant. If you increased the 4 to 30 so it was even numbers, and then looked at the AoE damage, that is where the problem lies. Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.
Like it or not, that causes players to quit, because that kind of combat isn’t fun. There is no fighting involved, just AoE spam followed by a long run back from the Waypoint.
This change, if it goes far enough, will make combat more involved and enjoyable.
You know if 4 people can beat 30 people it is called the game isn’t balanced.
This happened in other game I played. And yes they nerfed aoe too.
i support the change. 4 people should never be able to take down 30, even if theyre underleveled noobs. it’s absolutely ridiculous.
the only kneejerk is happening from the players (who are maining necros, eles and engies). aoe is pretty ridiculous in tpvp and PVE. i think this decision is very well thought out.
Fix culling then. Same issue happened during the karka event. The karkas were blanketing the place with out of culling lingering AOE poison. I would have loved to target them but that required me to step into the poison to get to them, so i hung back because i didn’t know what else was down there. The problem there was not the AOE, i could handle that, the problem was the culling that favored fellow toons over opposition mobs.
Seriously, the engine seems barely workable for 5 on 5 or there about. Anything more and things start to vanish. And when there is nothing but the animations to fall back on for clues that something is going on the game is basically broken.
If they want to fix the issue it is not AOE they need to focus on, but culling. If need be replace far off objects with nametags and charge bars to lighten the engine load. Right now they are sacrificing practical playability on the altar of esthetics.
“Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.”
Solution? Not being in a gigantic zerg…. It’s a kitten meta and aoe would be the way to change that.
What a joke. If I was IoJ I’d be embarrassed by this. Against any decent players those guys would have been run over in no time. Instead they go forward 1-2 at a time, all stand in aoe, and basically do everything you’re NOT suppose to do.
They deserved to get owned “4vs30”.
That wasn’t a case of “OMG AOE” it was a case of “Wow, those invaders are really stupid.”
The only reason those 4 even got out of there alive is because the enemy were complete and utter , full blow, unbelievable mentally challenged players, same goes for the “7v50”.
Heck give me 10 players and there is only 1 simple thing you need to say to beat 4 people, “Charge”.
Not even 5 people in that video that they posted decided to go onto them and wreck havoc, given how many long range dashes there are in this game, it truly is a pathetic zerg group from the other side.
Everytime I see those videos I just shake my head at what the enemy is doing.
lv80 with skills fully unlocked, warrior, elementalist and engineer
lv80 Necromancer, all professional skills unlocked, working on the final norn elite skills.
lv80 Necromancer, all professional skills unlocked, working on the final norn elite skills.
(edited by LieutenantGoogle.7326)
“Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.”
Solution? Not being in a gigantic zerg…. It’s a kitten meta and aoe would be the way to change that.
Are you a PvEer by any chance? :P
I really don’t know as I never played any type of PVP, but from what I heard, a lot of people are using choke points and aoe to nuke others. If that’s true, wouldn’t it make more sense to change the map to remove the advantage?
Im not sure what the problem is. 4 vs 30 so what? Constantly keeping eachother up and using the terrain to your advantage. The players were playing well. The zerg was rtarded.
just 1 person with projectile deflect would have been enough. I can see a bunker just running right through those AOE and then doing any form of lock and all 4 would be dead in seconds. Too bad the zerg has no defensive skills by the look of it.
Against a comp like that 2 staff ele, a thief and a engy a good bunker guadian could probably 1v4 them.
sllaw eht no nettirw gnihtemos saw ecno ereht
This is the sort of video that I think should never be taken into account when determining buffs and nerfs, but unfortunately that’s exactly what is happening. 4 random players would not be able to emulate this victory. This situation was dependent almost entirely on the players involved, and not raw numbers.
You should never nerf classes or mechanics based on the abilities of a VERY rare few skill individuals. If you nerf players who are above average down to average, what does that do to the average player? 0_o or below average player? They suddenly become so worthless it isn’t even worth logging in.
I can only hope that this nerf in damage for PvP’s sake is compensated by tweaks in PvE.
This, and that the viability of AoE is left intact in general. Yes, It does need a nerf. The video demonstrates that irrefutably.
Though I hope staff and AoE will remain viable in WvW and PvP. That’s all I can ask as an elementalist that does a little bit of everything (PvE, WvW, little PvP now and then).
This isn’t really relevant. If you increased the 4 to 30 so it was even numbers, and then looked at the AoE damage, that is where the problem lies. Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.
Like it or not, that causes players to quit, because that kind of combat isn’t fun. There is no fighting involved, just AoE spam followed by a long run back from the Waypoint.
This change, if it goes far enough, will make combat more involved and enjoyable.
The thing that’s likely to cause people to quit is sweeping nerfs to their classes when 80+% of their damage is AoE based. Nobody complains about AoE, they complain about getting mutilated by a thief in the span of 2 seconds.
Lol, to the guys who says the 4 and AoE in the video is imbalance then I suggest you learn to play better. That’s called teamwork, communication and strategy. Using terrain to good use. That’s what WvW is supposed to be, using terrain to advantage. If not, might as well just design a map with flat land. Those zergs are just plain stupid and think they are Spartans. Rushing into a region without first scouting is fail.
I can only hope that this nerf in damage for PvP’s sake is compensated by tweaks in PvE.
This, and that the viability of AoE is left intact in general. Yes, It does need a nerf. The video demonstrates that irrefutably.
Though I hope staff and AoE will remain viable in WvW and PvP. That’s all I can ask as an elementalist that does a little bit of everything (PvE, WvW, little PvP now and then).
I don’t agree at all. That video is a testament to why it should remain the same. I absolutely love that 4 well played and clever players can take on that many bad players and come out ahead. That’s a fantastic thing. The larger Zerg always winning is god awful boring.
The thing that’s likely to cause people to quit is sweeping nerfs to their classes when 80+% of their damage is AoE based. Nobody complains about AoE, they complain about getting mutilated by a thief in the span of 2 seconds.
Unless you’re the 30 folks getting owned by those four players. Then you’re complaining about AoE.
They need to make the red circles fully shaded red, then have the spine to stand up to players and say “you didn’t dodge out of the giant red zone, L2P noob, not nerfing them”
Window-lickers should not be allowed to cry to devs and break the entire balance of the game by destroying the viability of AOE.
That is an awesome video and proves how great the combat system in GW2 is and should not be destroyed by any nerfs.
I can only hope that this nerf in damage for PvP’s sake is compensated by tweaks in PvE.
This, and that the viability of AoE is left intact in general. Yes, It does need a nerf. The video demonstrates that irrefutably.
Though I hope staff and AoE will remain viable in WvW and PvP. That’s all I can ask as an elementalist that does a little bit of everything (PvE, WvW, little PvP now and then).
I don’t agree at all. That video is a testament to why it should remain the same. I absolutely love that 4 well played and clever players can take on that many bad players and come out ahead. That’s a fantastic thing. The larger Zerg always winning is god awful boring.
I want to say yes, but I’m sorry. Even if they are a terribad zerg, four people shouldn’t be able to win against 30. That’s not balanced.
But then I’m on the fence after watching that again. They really are terribads and the four players are really good on communication and actually listening to one and other.
I don’t know… if Anet’s watching this thread, please watch that video for yourselves.
I’m not so sure it was AoE being imbalanced so much as that zerg being absolutely terrible and the four players being fairly competent.
I’m starting to believe if the zerg just actually zerged the four, I’m certain they would have destroyed them.
But then the AoE CC had a lot to do with it as well. I see how they stopped the advance and then stacked the AoE’s FTW… ((shrug))
I’m not as sure about it as I was.
(edited by CETheLucid.3964)
The Zerg was just terribad. Didn’t dared to advance despite having outnumbered the 4. I don’t believe the zergs do not have stability or reflect skills. They could easily dodge or ran past the meteors to kill off the 4 but they didn’t.
On the reverse side of this you have warriors soloing AC. You think a strong aoe class could clear a Dungeon?
The Zerg was just terribad. Didn’t dared to advance despite having outnumbered the 4. I don’t believe the zergs do not have stability or reflect skills. They could easily dodge or ran past the meteors to kill off the 4 but they didn’t.
It was more the CC AoE I saw that stopped the zerg advance, but yes, with stability even a few of the 30 could have simply ran past the CC fields and roflstomped them.
That’s a very good point!
The 4 used skill, strategy and lots of teamwork to accomplish what they did. While the enemy zerg just kept walking into the aoe choke point and didn’t use any abilities or other skills to reach the group of 4 to cause havoc.
I mean all it would have taken was 1 person getting to the group and doing any form of cc to them and the zerg would have reach them and stomped them. I main an ele and just can’t help think that 1 d/d ele could have easily reached them with lighting flash into RTL followed by the regular cc abilities causing all kinds of havoc and allowing the rest of the zerg to get in close.
So all that video shows is that skill, strategy and teamwork can beat larger numbers as long as culling isn’t an issue.
I just watched that video; I barely saw any concentrated attacks on those 4 guys, and if they got even remotely damaged they backed off A LOT and were constantly dropping cond removal and heals on each other – was that zerg of 30 players? (didn’t look like it).
No way in hell that was a culling issue – how did they have perfect vision of the zerg if there was culling problems?
Biggest problem with that I would say would have been that green smoke – which appeared to be a weird map bug. Would have hidden their exact location from the zerg mob.
This isn’t really relevant. If you increased the 4 to 30 so it was even numbers, and then looked at the AoE damage, that is where the problem lies. Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.
Like it or not, that causes players to quit, because that kind of combat isn’t fun. There is no fighting involved, just AoE spam followed by a long run back from the Waypoint.
This change, if it goes far enough, will make combat more involved and enjoyable.
The thing that’s likely to cause people to quit is sweeping nerfs to their classes when 80+% of their damage is AoE based. Nobody complains about AoE, they complain about getting mutilated by a thief in the span of 2 seconds.
True, but people have complained about AoE as well. Some glass cannon builds in sPvP struggle because once committed, they can’t get out of a fight, and they die to casual AoE damage in seconds. Warrior and Elementalist are prone to this, whereas Thieves and Mesmers have stealth, which allows them to extricate themselves, giving them a huge advantage.
If you have an Ele, go into sPvP with a full glass cannon build, you can easily die even if no one is targeting you, because of AoE damage that is inherent in some of the weapon skills (all of which get used in a fight, it would be wrong not to).
Necromancer Axe is a single target weapon right? Yet Unholy Feast is an AoE attack, and is indiscriminate in who it hits. That kind of casual AoE damage, when used by several players, wrecks glass cannon builds, even if no one is trying to kill them.
I would have preferred to see health pools increased, but I suspect that would be harder to balance.
Wow. That’s an effective use of combat fields right there. With the limit of 5 per AOE, at most that team can effectively focus on twenty targets. At the best, we can say they can quickly and efficiently hit 2-4 targets at the same time. They had effective strategy too – using the environment to pull and keep the zerg occupied with debuff/damage fields, while denying them the advantage of ground and distance to the 4-man team, AND pulling targets down.
The zerg, on the other hand, was badly coordinated, and had little squad tactics shown. They were pulled and cut down.
I was the thief in that video, and we were able to stop their advance on the bridge with utilizing the chill fields and CC provided by ele staff with frozen ground and static field, while laying down heavy AOE on their advance. Plus, a lot of them initially got wrecked on the ascent up the hill with the supply drop and static field dropping on their force followed by intense AOE. Seriously the combination of constant pressure with trick shot+cluster bomb along with double meteor shower, the sustain of the water attunement and water fields of the staff ele, with the engineer pulling individual players with magnet for us to pick off was a deadly combination for that situation. Its surprising how effective smaller numbers are against large forces of uncoordinated players. Was fun stuff.
My thoughts on the subject at hand? I think AOE is generally too powerful in this game along with with some single target burst(backstab combo). While this issue I think is more pertinent to sPvP than WvW, lessening overall AOE damage will probably give new players a better chance to survive in AOE dead zones that often appear in larger engagements. In sPvP, AOE damage currently makes normally ressing teammates incredibly difficult/often suicidal, and forces point fighting to be restricted to the classes capable of sustaining the constant pressure(bunkers).
Cretius-Elementalist
Condiments-Thief
Condiments-Thief
The 4 used skill, strategy and lots of teamwork to accomplish what they did. While the enemy zerg just kept walking into the aoe choke point and didn’t use any abilities or other skills to reach the group of 4 to cause havoc.
I mean all it would have taken was 1 person getting to the group and doing any form of cc to them and the zerg would have reach them and stomped them. I main an ele and just can’t help think that 1 d/d ele could have easily reached them with lighting flash into RTL followed by the regular cc abilities causing all kinds of havoc and allowing the rest of the zerg to get in close.
So all that video shows is that skill, strategy and teamwork can beat larger numbers as long as culling isn’t an issue.
All that is true. If out of 30 people or so not one of them had a stability skill or some kind of blink skill, those four earned their win.
True, but people have complained about AoE as well. Some glass cannon builds in sPvP struggle because once committed, they can’t get out of a fight, and they die to casual AoE damage in seconds. Warrior and Elementalist are prone to this, whereas Thieves and Mesmers have stealth, which allows them to extricate themselves, giving them a huge advantage.
If you have an Ele, go into sPvP with a full glass cannon build, you can easily die even if no one is targeting you, because of AoE damage that is inherent in some of the weapon skills (all of which get used in a fight, it would be wrong not to).
Necromancer Axe is a single target weapon right? Yet Unholy Feast is an AoE attack, and is indiscriminate in who it hits. That kind of casual AoE damage, when used by several players, wrecks glass cannon builds, even if no one is trying to kill them.
I would have preferred to see health pools increased, but I suspect that would be harder to balance.
Glass cannon is glass cannon. That spec is extreme damage and nothing else. They die to everything. That’s the trade off. That’s balanced in of itself.
I’m not sure I like the idea of nerfing the damage they do, they certainly pay for it by being utterly vulnerable to everything out there.
A good hearted nerf to glass cannons would be to make them even squishier.
Not to the point where the spec is no longer viable, but something that makes them work even harder for it, puts them in more danger for running it.
Following that, I really like your health pool increase idea. Stats (therefore numbers) remain the same, but everyone get’s a higher HP pool to work with.
Gives everyone a little more wiggle room to eat those 14K hits, while maintaining 14K hits.
As before, by not making 14K hits useless, but by making the one doing 14k hits work harder for it and giving the unlucky victim just the littlest more time to react.
Stupid people who can’t use stability, dodge, or cc and stand around to die in AOE deserve to die.
It was a matter less of their skill but more of their 30 opponents’ lack of skill.
Those 30 deserved to die, just like romney deserved to lose.
After watching that video and you still think ele are not OP , daaamnnn !
After watching that video and you still think ele are not OP , daaamnnn !
If someone in a charger is asleep and the charger is parked, the guy in the nissan leaf is going to win the drag race.
how about you play an ele instead of a thief.
this is superior strategy and luck. As was said, if the warriors do their job they could rush them and take them down. The tortoise tactic would have easily taken them down. The otherside is just a mindless zerg w/o communication.
Also, here is a team who wins with smart stuff and everybody now says that the zerg should win. What happend to “WvW is so boring its only zerging”
After watching that video and you still think ele are not OP , daaamnnn !
If someone in a charger is asleep and the charger is parked, the guy in the nissan leaf is going to win the drag race.
how about you play an ele instead of a thief.
The thief should seek out the ele and take him down. Ele has strengths but his weakness is if he is directly attacked by close combat.
This OP video only proves one thing : the most basic real war strategies are working in this game.
Even adapted to movies :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNn5TZu6R8
Or in Sun Tzu’s words in Art of War :
Overwhelming size wins by engulfing opponents
(but hey ! let’s draw hasted conclusions and nerf AOEs !)
(edited by kineticdamage.6279)
That video doesn’t at all show that AoE is OP, it shows that a well-coordinated, experienced group with voice chat and a terrain advantage beat a large, uncoordinated mob of enemies that were so used to ZvZ meaning instant death if you approach the enemy zerg that none of them rushed the tiny little group.
The video really just showed that zerging all the time makes people bad players.
That video doesn’t at all show that AoE is OP, it shows that a well-coordinated, experienced group with voice chat and a terrain advantage beat a large, uncoordinated mob of enemies that were so used to ZvZ meaning instant death if you approach the enemy zerg that none of them rushed the tiny little group.
The video really just showed that zerging all the time makes people bad players.
AOE not OP ? Please re-see the video again ! I think that AOE of elementalist did 50k over the zerg x2 elementalist 100k ! Nothing wrong with 100k damage over 30 players ? Nothing ? Really nothing ?
That video doesn’t at all show that AoE is OP, it shows that a well-coordinated, experienced group with voice chat and a terrain advantage beat a large, uncoordinated mob of enemies that were so used to ZvZ meaning instant death if you approach the enemy zerg that none of them rushed the tiny little group.
The video really just showed that zerging all the time makes people bad players.AOE not OP ? Please re-see the video again ! I think that AOE of elementalist did 50k over the zerg x2 elementalist 100k ! Nothing wrong with 100k damage over 30 players ? Nothing ? Really nothing ?
He did that much damage because they made the effort to get a superior position.
Plus, if the zerg hadn’t hung back and fired at range pointlessly and actually charged their position they would’ve slaughtered that group.
Or if any of them had used a pull skill and then immobilized.
Or if they had worked together at all.
Position, teamwork, communication.
This isn’t really relevant. If you increased the 4 to 30 so it was even numbers, and then looked at the AoE damage, that is where the problem lies. Guilds are using culling and AoE damage to wipe out large groups in seconds before they even know what hit them.
Like it or not, that causes players to quit, because that kind of combat isn’t fun. There is no fighting involved, just AoE spam followed by a long run back from the Waypoint.
This change, if it goes far enough, will make combat more involved and enjoyable.
Totally agree.
That video doesn’t at all show that AoE is OP, it shows that a well-coordinated, experienced group with voice chat and a terrain advantage beat a large, uncoordinated mob of enemies that were so used to ZvZ meaning instant death if you approach the enemy zerg that none of them rushed the tiny little group.
The video really just showed that zerging all the time makes people bad players.AOE not OP ? Please re-see the video again ! I think that AOE of elementalist did 50k over the zerg x2 elementalist 100k ! Nothing wrong with 100k damage over 30 players ? Nothing ? Really nothing ?
comes out to about 3400 pr individual on average. Now some may have been hit multiple times, but it is not like everyone was hit with 100k in a single blow.
Note btw that there are videos out there of warriors doing 20-30k damage using the rifle skill Kill Shot. Tho indeed that is one glass cannon shooting another.
Those 20 odd players are idiots, they deserved to be beaten. The 70 (lol) on their other video are even worse.
Sadly it seems those sheep are the people this game is being balanced around.
YOU KNOW THERE AIN’T NO REST FOR THE WICKED, TILL WE CLOSE OUR EYES FOR GOOD.
Once proud member of Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]{DESO4LIFE}
Once proud member of Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]{DESO4LIFE}
AoE AND teamwork, obviously. Just because you use teamwork doesn’t mean what you’re doing isn’t unbalanced.
Those 20 odd players are idiots, they deserved to be beaten. The 70 (lol) on their other video are even worse.
Sadly it seems those sheep are the people this game is being balanced around.
Yea it should be balanced to maximize hardcore players’ ability to exploit abilities. If you want that go back to whatever dead PvP game that you already ruined.
On the reverse side of this you have warriors soloing AC. You think a strong aoe class could clear a Dungeon?
In PvE, Warrior is a strong AoE class.
I was the thief in that video, and we were able to stop their advance on the bridge with utilizing the chill fields and CC provided by ele staff with frozen ground and static field, while laying down heavy AOE on their advance. Plus, a lot of them initially got wrecked on the ascent up the hill with the supply drop and static field dropping on their force followed by intense AOE. Seriously the combination of constant pressure with trick shot+cluster bomb along with double meteor shower, the sustain of the water attunement and water fields of the staff ele, with the engineer pulling individual players with magnet for us to pick off was a deadly combination for that situation. Its surprising how effective smaller numbers are against large forces of uncoordinated players. Was fun stuff.
My thoughts on the subject at hand? I think AOE is generally too powerful in this game along with with some single target burst(backstab combo). While this issue I think is more pertinent to sPvP than WvW, lessening overall AOE damage will probably give new players a better chance to survive in AOE dead zones that often appear in larger engagements. In sPvP, AOE damage currently makes normally ressing teammates incredibly difficult/often suicidal, and forces point fighting to be restricted to the classes capable of sustaining the constant pressure(bunkers).
new players shouldnt get a better chance to survive coordinated attacks, they need to learn to play better. The only thing nerfing the damage of AOE would do is make it so instead of taking 4 people to kill 30, you would take 5 or 6. The fact remains that bad tactics will lead to defeat. That is PvP.
nerfing AOE would have too large an effect on many classes in normal regular play, and the game was designed with AOE in mind. I still think one of the reasons dunegeons seem long and dragged out is because from alpha till now, they have been consistently nerfing classes ability to damage.
Step one, changing projectiles to 20% chance to proc combo fields
step two removing a large amount of blast finishers
step three various smaller nerfs to specific skills damage (phantasms used to do more as well blurred frenzy, reduced damage on warrior drastically with nerfing crit damage line)
Now, im not saying they should never make nerfs, or that some of these nerfs didnt serve a purpose, but they still havent gone in and tuned the rest of the game to account for all these nerfs, now they want to nerf AOE damage.. what are the ramifications of that going to be on all the encounters they designed, expecting people to be able to handle waves upon waves of enemies?
Say they reduce enemy spawns, what effect will that have upon the amount of drops in the world and the cash earned.
because its better to use AOE on people so they are hard to ressurect?
UHHHH isnt that kind of the point? Didnt they nerf the ressurect skills/traits at some point so its easier to kill or deal with ressurectors? ISnt a ressurector supposed to have to choose, how much ressurection, and if they should ressurect?
What about you know, the advantage of having toughness, and endure pain/distortion/bubbles for when you are ressurecting?
There’s no need to empower the zerg. In this video 4 did not beat 30, they beat 4 at a time because the enemies were too hesitant to rush in and do what they were supposed to do. An organized zerg will still rule with an iron fist.
I do think eles are an easy, skill-spamming class though which takes little ability to utilize. But that’s my opinion.
Metsän Suojelija (guard)/Puun Halaaja (engi)/Pieni Musta Rotta (warrior)/Viher Rauha (necro)
(edited by TheGreatA.4192)
i think this video is their basis of nerfing AoE.
Look at what they are addressing and look at what they are not.
It looks more like they don’t play their game and don’t know how to fix what needs fixing.
Hello,
There is already a dedicated thread about this concern here : Is AoE actually a problem? – Discussion Thread. Therefore this one is now closed to avoid duplicates.
Thank you for your understanding.