Guild Wars 2

TorsoReaper.8530:

Obtena.7952:

The problem with the idea that something is ‘too expensive’ is that it makes no sense. Take a car … don’t care what make or model … is it too expensive? For some people, it could be but for some others, it might not. The point … ‘too expensive’ is not an objective assessment of hardened leather price.

Therefore, to make an objective problem statement using it makes no sense whatsoever. If you have to ask WHO it’s too expensive for, and have no target audience, then how can you even implement a sensible solution to that? You can’t. The whole approach that everyone takes to complain about this simply demonstrates exactly what I’m saying here.

Anet has done exactly the correct thing here; allow players to take more control of the market by introducing more bandwidth to farm. The market will dictate the price all goods in it; it’s completely self-regulating. In otherwords, Anet has washed their hands and put the pricing in control of the players. Appealing to ’it’s too expensive’ has no impact on an entity that WANTS a self-regulating market to exist.

I love analogies. Let’s try this one out. Car market is OK, if anything cars are “too affordable” but who knows what that means right because it’s all objective. But the government looks and says “wow, this is way too affordable, every car needs to be gold plated from now on”. Prices for cars sky rocket. Now the government says “you know what, we are going to be ‘hands off’ on the economy, let’s just see what happens to car prices”. Car prices continue to sky rocket because they need to be gold plated.

Finally the government steps in and says “we’ve mostly been hands off but we’re going to open up a gold mine on government land, feel free to come here and mine gold, it only costs $1500/oz and you can take out as much as you want”. A lot of people say “I’m not doing that, I can get it for $1271/oz from China”. Some people use the gold mine though because they just like to mine their own gold. Car prices continue to skyrocket.

But don’t worry, the Government is “hands off” now. It will definitely equalize… right?

Absolutely the market in GW2 will equalize … but make no mistake, that doesn’t mean cheaper … it simply means TP volumes and pricing will reflect what people will sell and pay for leather; which is exactly why Anet implemented the what leather drops in Doric lake. I know it’s convenient for people to forget that, but it’s true. You’re analogy is not all that relevant for numerous reasons and my point still stands … ‘too expensive’ is subjective.

Ayrilana.1396:

Analogy would only work if there was only one car model. Like armor tiers, cars come in a variety of tiers too. It’d be like the difference between a Ford > Kia > Audi > Mercedes > Porsche as the difference between blues, greens, rares, exotics, and ascended. Even then, car features may be a better thing to use as that’s closer to stat combos of armor.

Honestly you bring up a good point. Now that leather is in everything from gossamar patches to guild halls, the better analogy would have been Government said “cars need to be gold plated but so must all homes as well”.

To your point on different models etc, think about crafting any medium armor without leather. Even a green level 60 armor, still needs leather. I’m not just talking about the hardened leather crisis, I’m talking about all leather. Then we also have to use leather for ascended items that aren’t even medium.

TorsoReaper.8530:

Ayrilana.1396:

Analogy would only work if there was only one car model. Like armor tiers, cars come in a variety of tiers too. It’d be like the difference between a Ford > Kia > Audi > Mercedes > Porsche as the difference between blues, greens, rares, exotics, and ascended. Even then, car features may be a better thing to use as that’s closer to stat combos of armor.

Honestly you bring up a good point. Now that leather is in everything from gossamar patches to guild halls, the better analogy would have been Government said “cars need to be gold plated but so must all homes as well”.

To your point on different models etc, think about crafting any medium armor without leather. Even a green level 60 armor, still needs leather. I’m not just talking about the hardened leather crisis, I’m talking about all leather. Then we also have to use leather for ascended items that aren’t even medium.

Cars and homes are not comparable as leather and cloth armor are. To be honest, I think this talk about the analogy is deviating from the topic.

And I don’t think there’s much more that can be said on either side without repeating what’s already been said. This is one of those topics where the sides are fairly divisive and chance are nobody from either side will be able to convince the other that they’re wrong. Whatever that “wrong” may be.

Obtena.7952:

Anet has done exactly the correct thing here; allow players to take more control of the market by introducing more bandwidth to farm. The market will dictate the price all goods in it; it’s completely self-regulating.

Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself here. ArenaNet acted deliberately to control the market by adding more hardened leather to the economy (Centaur farm in Lake Doric for example). That is the opposite of “it’s completely self-regulating”. It is not self-regulating if the world’s god feels the need to intervene in the economy. That’s like saying the French agriculture economy is self-regulating while recognising that it is heavily subsidized by the government.

I think ArenaNet is doing a good job balancing the economy btw, in most games, it’s too easy to get currency, and that’s no fun either.

Pifil.5193:

Too expensive for me, of course, that’s why I said I think it’s too expensive.

I’m a seasoned player, been here since the betas and I think it’s too expensive for crafting to be a practical option for creating exotic armour. I either get my exotics from the tp or some other methods, not crafting. Saying ArenaNet had put pricing in the hands of the players conveniently ignores that they created the current situation and then washed their hands of the matter.

If you have been playing since the betas, you will remember that Anet acknowledged that they overestimated the time the player base needed to obtain exotic (best in slot) gear after launch. That was mostly due to the various acquisition methods. Apart from crafting, you could get them as drops, from the forge, for karma, dungeon tokens etc.

Thats why we got ascended armor, basically.

I think Anets goal with HoT was to make exotic armor harder to obtain compared to vanilla exotics to better reflect the time investment they intended for it. But its only natural that alot of players think that crafted exotic armor is too expensive now because we were used to cheap exotic gear until HoT.

So I think Anet point of view is not that HoT Exotics are too expensive, its that vanilla exotics are too easy to come by. ITs a situation they created themselves, true, but they have done it 5 years ago, not with HoT.

I also firmly believe that even if Anet should alter the recipe that you only need 5 t6 leather squares for an exotic insignia, it wouldnt really bring prices down on the end product (an exotic set of armor) because the added demand for exotic armor caused by the “cheap” t6 leather will put additional demand on other materials used in crafting exotic armor as well and their prices will go up, mostly the stat-defining fine materials and runes.

How added demand for exotic insignias can change prices of those items could be seen since the release of the last balance patch, which usually sparks alot of build changes for the player base. Freshwater Pearls jumped from 8g to 12g, which means 12g per exotic insignia, the elite spec runes gained 2-4g in value since then.

These market forces could also be seen in legendary crafting. A year ago, Amalgamated Gemstones were the financial bottleneck to the gen 2 leggies. At round 3g each, the 750g for the AG were the most expensive single ingredient of HoT leggies, the 450 Mystic coins at 35s meant an investment of 150g. Then they introduced new faucets for the gemstones and their prices went down. But the price of Mystic coins went up simultaneously.

Today, Mystic Coins and Amalgated gemstones are still the 2 most expensive items on the shopping list and you pay around 450g each for the 250 AG and 450 MC.

Wanze.8410:

I think Anets goal with HoT was to make exotic armor harder to obtain compared to vanilla exotics to better reflect the time investment they intended for it.

Can you explain that to me please? I don’t understand the difference between exotic armor I bought with karma and exotic armor one can craft. I know you get no resources back when salvaging them, but is there any other difference other than looks? Is the karma exotic not as good as crafted exotic? Can people even see if you are wearing crafted or bought armor, if you can use your wardrobe to change the looks?

Thanks

Faaris.8013:

Wanze.8410:

I think Anets goal with HoT was to make exotic armor harder to obtain compared to vanilla exotics to better reflect the time investment they intended for it.

Can you explain that to me please? I don’t understand the difference between exotic armor I bought with karma and exotic armor one can craft. I know you get no resources back when salvaging them, but is there any other difference other than looks? Is the karma exotic not as good as crafted exotic? Can people even see if you are wearing crafted or bought armor, if you can use your wardrobe to change the looks?

Thanks

stat values are the same but not every stat combination is the same. Zerker gear and Soldier gear give the same amount of power as mayor stat, just the minor stats are a different kind (but also the same value).

But exotic with vanilla stat combinations has plenty of acquisition methods (crafted, from the forge, for karma, dungeon tokens or random loot drops etc.), which means there is more exotic gear on the market than is needed (most of it gets salvaged for the mats). And crafting is the most expensive method to obtain vanilla exotic gear but there are cheaper alternatives (in terms of opportunity or gold costs) to obtain the desired stats in exotics, just the skins are different.

Exotics with stat from HoT however, can only be crafted, cant be traded and they also dont drop as random loot or can be forged, so the expensive method of crafting is the only viable way.

People might argue that exotics should all cost the same but considering that HoT stats are already gated behind a paywall, I dont think they are intended for new players but long term goal for veterans.

Faaris.8013:

Wanze.8410:

I think Anets goal with HoT was to make exotic armor harder to obtain compared to vanilla exotics to better reflect the time investment they intended for it.

Can you explain that to me please? I don’t understand the difference between exotic armor I bought with karma and exotic armor one can craft. I know you get no resources back when salvaging them, but is there any other difference other than looks? Is the karma exotic not as good as crafted exotic? Can people even see if you are wearing crafted or bought armor, if you can use your wardrobe to change the looks?

Thanks

All exotic armour is identical in terms of the stats they give you. The only disadvantage is that you cannot salvage karma gear so you can’t get your runes back that way. Most runes are quite cheap though so that’s not much of an issue.

Ayrilana.1396:

If unbound magic is the lesser part, exactly what are you farming? It’s clearly not winterberries to convert into unbound magic.

I have answered you already – i am going for the berries, but also opening all the icebound chests and killing all mobs on the way. The rate of farming berries (and unbound magic) is slower, but the drops (especially the scraps that salvage into leather) are good enough that it’s okay.

Basically: the common drops from common mobs in new LS maps alone are good enough to offer better return than the centaur leather farm. Chests and berries are just a berry on top of it.

That is why i was saying from the very beginning that the “farm” is a design failure.

Got it, thanks. I wanted Berserker, nothing “exotic”, so I didn’t even check if there are karma traders who sell different stat combinations.

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

People have done the math Ayrilana, and there’s no way you are obtaining 40 T6 leather sections every hour through this farm.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/63f85n/data_salvage_results_of_7700_bloodstonewarped/

800 T6 leather sections salvaged from 7700 bloodstone warped hides. This averages out to about 25 T6 leather per stack.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lwd/SALVAGE-TEST-Copper-VS-Silver-SPOILER/first#post6537649

This user salvaged 2000 bloodstone warped hides and got 166 T6 leather out of them. That averages out to about 21 T6 leather sections per stack of bloodstone warped hides.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5t7d1u/possible_spoilers_salvage_rate_research_for/

This user salvaged 2000 bloodstone warped hides, annd received 200 T6 leather sections out of it. Averaging out to 25 T6 leather sections per stack of bloodstone warped hides.

The data is out there. You average about a 10% drop rate on T6 leather from a bloodstone warped hide. So if you are indeed obtaining 40 per hour, then you claim that you are obtaining 400 bloodstone warped hides per hour, every hour, through DR even. I certainly never obtained hides at that rate when I attempted the farm. Do I just have bad luck, or were your numbers inflated?

It’s what I’ve been getting but of course I’ve not done 7700 salvages.

Let so with 20 per hour and redo my numbers.

So basically you’re changing your claim now that actual numbers are being thrown at you? At no time ever did you get 40 T6 leather from this farm per hour, it’s just something you pulled out of nowhere to try and substantiate a claim that we all simply have to take your word on.

I’ve been burning that farm the last 2 weeks to craft elonian squares for Chuka collection and gather some T6 squares and at no point did I get over 30 T6 leather let alone the 40 you claim per hour – this isn’t bad luck or bad rng on my part, it’s you claiming to have the most amazing rng salvage rate compared to the rest of the playerbase and those who tested it, not just a few times, but apparently “on average every hour” just to support your false claim. Adjust your numbers all you like, but you have zero credibility when all we have is your word – which is a completely fabricated claim on salvage rates – vs actual numbers.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

If unbound magic is the lesser part, exactly what are you farming? It’s clearly not winterberries to convert into unbound magic.

I have answered you already – i am going for the berries, but also opening all the icebound chests and killing all mobs on the way. The rate of farming berries (and unbound magic) is slower, but the drops (especially the scraps that salvage into leather) are good enough that it’s okay.

Basically: the common drops from common mobs in new LS maps alone are good enough to offer better return than the centaur leather farm. Chests and berries are just a berry on top of it.

That is why i was saying from the very beginning that the “farm” is a design failure.

Except that it’s not. Recently I’ve been farming that map for the winterberries while killing everything along the way as it helps progress the bars for the hearts. The loot that I got was nowhere near what I got from the centaur farm. What you get from going out of the way for the icebound chests was not all that better. Farming berries themselves yield the higher rate of return.

You then have the leather farm where you get those same drops plus a practically guaranteed Bloodstone warped hide. You said the common drops from the new LS zones are better than the leather farm but where do you think that farm is?

Static.9841:

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

People have done the math Ayrilana, and there’s no way you are obtaining 40 T6 leather sections every hour through this farm.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/63f85n/data_salvage_results_of_7700_bloodstonewarped/

800 T6 leather sections salvaged from 7700 bloodstone warped hides. This averages out to about 25 T6 leather per stack.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lwd/SALVAGE-TEST-Copper-VS-Silver-SPOILER/first#post6537649

This user salvaged 2000 bloodstone warped hides and got 166 T6 leather out of them. That averages out to about 21 T6 leather sections per stack of bloodstone warped hides.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5t7d1u/possible_spoilers_salvage_rate_research_for/

This user salvaged 2000 bloodstone warped hides, annd received 200 T6 leather sections out of it. Averaging out to 25 T6 leather sections per stack of bloodstone warped hides.

The data is out there. You average about a 10% drop rate on T6 leather from a bloodstone warped hide. So if you are indeed obtaining 40 per hour, then you claim that you are obtaining 400 bloodstone warped hides per hour, every hour, through DR even. I certainly never obtained hides at that rate when I attempted the farm. Do I just have bad luck, or were your numbers inflated?

It’s what I’ve been getting but of course I’ve not done 7700 salvages.

Let so with 20 per hour and redo my numbers.

So basically you’re changing your claim now that actual numbers are being thrown at you? At no time ever did you get 40 T6 leather from this farm per hour, it’s just something you pulled out of nowhere to try and substantiate a claim that we all simply have to take your word on.

I’ve been burning that farm the last 2 weeks to craft elonian squares for Chuka collection and gather some T6 squares and at no point did I get over 30 T6 leather let alone the 40 you claim per hour – this isn’t bad luck or bad rng on my part, it’s you claiming to have the most amazing rng salvage rate compared to the rest of the playerbase and those who tested it, not just a few times, but apparently “on average every hour” just to support your false claim. Adjust your numbers all you like, but you have zero credibility when all we have is your word – which is a completely fabricated claim on salvage rates – vs actual numbers.

Had you read my entire post, you would see my claim remained unchanged. I did get 40 per hour as each run last around 20-30 minutes and I was getting 20ish for each. Even then, I used 20, and even just a single drop, and it didn’t disprove what I was saying. So again, read what it was that I was actually arguing.

Faaris.8013:

I think ArenaNet is doing a good job balancing the economy btw, in most games, it’s too easy to get currency, and that’s no fun either.

As a time-out from all the kvetching, yes.

For the most part, the economy is well in control. The occasional crafting material is an issue for balancing, but as a whole, I feel like I can afford what I need by trading in other trading-post stock like Rare gear and quartz.

Ayrilana.1396:

Had you read my entire post, you would see my claim remained unchanged. I did get 40 per hour as each run last around 20-30 minutes and I was getting 20ish for each. Even then, I used 20, and even just a single drop, and it didn’t disprove what I was saying. So again, read what it was that I was actually arguing.

I read your post, I also believe it’s full of fabrication because you’re basically saying that you have the luckiest salvage rate out of pretty much everyone “on average” just to try and maintain your stance.

I don’t particularly need T6 leather and I don’t much care about the state of it right now, but I’m absolutely calling you out on this as an outright lie just to fluff whatever point you think it is that you have.

Static.9841:

Ayrilana.1396:

Had you read my entire post, you would see my claim remained unchanged. I did get 40 per hour as each run last around 20-30 minutes and I was getting 20ish for each. Even then, I used 20, and even just a single drop, and it didn’t disprove what I was saying. So again, read what it was that I was actually arguing.

I read your post, I also believe it’s full of fabrication because you’re basically saying that you have the luckiest salvage rate out of pretty much everyone “on average” just to try and maintain your stance.

I don’t particularly need T6 leather and I don’t much care about the state of it right now, but I’m absolutely calling you out on this as an outright lie just to fluff whatever point you think it is that you have.

You didn’t read my post otherwise you would have realized that whatever the drop rate was, didn’t matter. You would also have read that this was from my experience and that I had said I had not done anywhere near the 7700 salvages. Why you’re so focused on this, which has no bearing on my argument, is beyond me.

Astralporing.1957:

mtpelion.4562:

Rauderi.8706:

It’s not healthy for the discussion to be deliberately obtuse. -_-

Insignias are a part of the armor-crafting process to get to 500, making Ascended gear available. Even for crafting Ascended gear, the Ascended insignia requires the Exotic one. Even getting a loot box from a fractal, conversion through the Forge requires an exotic insignia.

Kuu’s statement happens to drive home the point that the leather component is entirely too costly and affects the entire playerbase.

Too costly for whom?

Almost everyone, barring the top few percenters.

Dang I must be a top few percenter and never knew it, with only 60-100g On my acct on average, yet have crafted over 4 Ascended armor sets……….and 3 of those being Leather for my Thief.

Yes leather prices hurt to buy from the TP, but it’s not like players are forced to buy from the TP they have a few methods to acquire them. And it doesn’t take all that much gold to get to 500 crafting, if you buy every single item on the TP for Leatherworking it will cost at most 140g as of today as of this moment on Gw2crafts.net, and let’s not forget almost everything that is crafted on the journey to 500 can be salvaged and recycled or sold on the TP to recoup some of that cost. Again that is the total cost to buy everything on the TP, which in most cases most players won’t buy every single thing needed on the TP.

Now currently to craft the most popular Insignia Berserkers is 16.5g ea which the only reason to craft these insignias is for Ascended items either crafting or stat converting, since you know you can buy those stats in multiple ways or get them completely free from reward tracks.

Then if you want to craft the Ascended armor you can always bypass having to make the insignias all together and purchase them from PvP and Fractal vendors, or to avoid crafting altogether you can purchase from Raids, since Raids can be done with Exotic Armor.

Wanze.8410:

Pifil.5193:

Too expensive for me, of course, that’s why I said I think it’s too expensive.

I’m a seasoned player, been here since the betas and I think it’s too expensive for crafting to be a practical option for creating exotic armour. I either get my exotics from the tp or some other methods, not crafting. Saying ArenaNet had put pricing in the hands of the players conveniently ignores that they created the current situation and then washed their hands of the matter.

what you said

There’s no reason to wait for almost 4 years after the game is out to make exotics an order of magnitude more expensive to craft if they wanted it to “take longer”. If that was the reason, it would have happened far before HoT.

HoT just kittened up the leather market. You won’t admit it, because you are making kittenloads of money off leather. But HoT did kitten up the leather. It added leather to almost every recipe you will ever craft, except it added leather in quantities that reflected the glut of millions of leather that were on the market prior to HoT, and was never adjusted to reflect when that supply dried up. This is the problem. The rate of acquisition of leather does not line up with the rate of consumption, not at all. And the price of it is clear evidence of that.

Ayrilana.1396:

Static.9841:

Ayrilana.1396:

Had you read my entire post, you would see my claim remained unchanged. I did get 40 per hour as each run last around 20-30 minutes and I was getting 20ish for each. Even then, I used 20, and even just a single drop, and it didn’t disprove what I was saying. So again, read what it was that I was actually arguing.

I read your post, I also believe it’s full of fabrication because you’re basically saying that you have the luckiest salvage rate out of pretty much everyone “on average” just to try and maintain your stance.

I don’t particularly need T6 leather and I don’t much care about the state of it right now, but I’m absolutely calling you out on this as an outright lie just to fluff whatever point you think it is that you have.

You didn’t read my post otherwise you would have realized that whatever the drop rate was, didn’t matter. You would also have read that this was from my experience and that I had said I had not done anywhere near the 7700 salvages. Why you’re so focused on this, which has no bearing on my argument, is beyond me.

How does salvage rate not matter when the crux of your argument is that you seemingly gets tons from doing the farm and you apparently get “on average 40 per hour”?

Your so-called experience with making up numbers means absolutely nothing when compared with actual numbers that then force you to change your numbers by half and flail around in your argument just to stubbornly stick to the idea that if several thousand users in the playerbase out of the kindness of their hearts all went out and farmed and stuck it to the man by filling up the TP, would drop the price. In which reality will those several thousand players go out and do this? This isn’t a solution, this is a wild daydream.

You’re epically failing to understand just how big the gap has been in supply and demand for a very long time and that a good deal of people farming it are those that need it and don’t want to pay for it or will simply continue to hoard it, none of which is ever going to see the TP.

So, beyond “ermergherd, I get more T6 leather than anyone else in the history of farming Lake Doric per hour”, what was your point?

Static.9841:

Ayrilana.1396:

Static.9841:

Ayrilana.1396:

Had you read my entire post, you would see my claim remained unchanged. I did get 40 per hour as each run last around 20-30 minutes and I was getting 20ish for each. Even then, I used 20, and even just a single drop, and it didn’t disprove what I was saying. So again, read what it was that I was actually arguing.

I read your post, I also believe it’s full of fabrication because you’re basically saying that you have the luckiest salvage rate out of pretty much everyone “on average” just to try and maintain your stance.

I don’t particularly need T6 leather and I don’t much care about the state of it right now, but I’m absolutely calling you out on this as an outright lie just to fluff whatever point you think it is that you have.

You didn’t read my post otherwise you would have realized that whatever the drop rate was, didn’t matter. You would also have read that this was from my experience and that I had said I had not done anywhere near the 7700 salvages. Why you’re so focused on this, which has no bearing on my argument, is beyond me.

How does salvage rate not matter when the crux of your argument is that you seemingly gets tons from doing the farm and you apparently get “on average 40 per hour”?

Your so-called experience with making up numbers means absolutely nothing when compared with actual numbers that then force you to change your numbers by half and flail around in your argument just to stubbornly stick to the idea that if several thousand users in the playerbase out of the kindness of their hearts all went out and farmed and stuck it to the man by filling up the TP, would drop the price. In which reality will this ever happen? This isn’t a solution, this is a wild daydream.

You’re epically failing to understand just how big the gap has been in supply and demand for a very long time and that a good deal of people farming it are those that need it and don’t want to pay for it or will simply continue to hoard it, none of which is ever going to see the TP.

Salvage rate doesn’t matter as I have said numerous times to you already. I ever used a salvage rate of 1 per hour in previous posts. I really suggest that you read the posts from when this started.

I didn’t make up numbers as this is what I have been noticing from my experience. Now my sample size is much smaller than 7700 salvages so it could just be that I hit a lucky streak. Regardless, this has zero impact on my argument. Had you known what the argument actually was in the first place then you would have realized this.

I’ll even help you out and point you to where it started. So start from there and read the posts.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/70g-to-make-basic-exotic-insignias/page/2#post6563378

Hardened leather isn’t just needed for guild halls but also to decorate them. They really stuck it to guild halls man.

ArchonWing.9480:

Pifil.5193:

I really don’t get what some people are arguing here. That it’s OK for hardened leather which is a Common crafting material to cost 1g+ a piece. That’s far, far more expensive than any other T6 Common materials. So much more expensive than Fine materials (Powerful Blood or Ectos, for example). So much cheaper than most of the Rare or Exotic materials.

Sure, why not? Why should things cost the same just because they’re in the same tier?
Crystal lodestones and Charged lodestones are t6, but one is worth a lot more. Putrid Essence is a “rare” material but it doesn’t cost much at all. The game’s designation of them, and how they are valued are two separate issues.

But I suppose there could be a point. Maybe all t6 materials should be really expensive instead. That would be balanced. Should cut the gossamer sources.

I mean, do we really want to make this literal. Sure it’s a basic material. But it’s being made for an exotic armor, which is something that’s fairly high end considering we have whites, greens, yellows. Now obviously the distinction that exotics are now considered basic gear is another story so perhaps this is a bad line to tread.

Crystal Lodestones and Putrid Essence would be just as valuable as Charged Lodestones if they had a similar number of desirable recipes as the Charged Lodestone does (Charged Lodestones are needed in at least 3 legendary gifts, one of which is used for a set of Rare Collection weapons, and two Vanity Exotics on top of that. Crystal Lodestones are used in one gift, ). Their sources are comparable, and the expenses are similar (100 per gift/exotic). Unfortunately, the developers seem to have defaulted to Charged Lodestone when it came to coming up with shiny gear acquisition. Frankly, I find it bizarre that the Spirit Weapons require the Gift of Light instead of the Gift of Souls.

Also – the Charged Lodestone is also used in several meta Sigils (Bursting and The Night)

Wanze.8410:

Didnt they introduce a direct way to farm leather?
Didnt they introduce a way to farm all tiers of leather in level 80 maps?

If players still prefer to buy their leather on the tp instead of farming it themselves, its their decision.

The fact that the leather price isnt falling tells me that the mayority of the player base is willing to pay those prices.

Or, you know, that the “leather farm” is a hilarious failure that did absolutely nothing to address the problem it was introduced to fix.

Which is what actually happened.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Wanze.8410:

Didnt they introduce a direct way to farm leather?
Didnt they introduce a way to farm all tiers of leather in level 80 maps?

If players still prefer to buy their leather on the tp instead of farming it themselves, its their decision.

The fact that the leather price isnt falling tells me that the mayority of the player base is willing to pay those prices.

Or, you know, that the “leather farm” is a hilarious failure that did absolutely nothing to address the problem it was introduced to fix.

Which is what actually happened.

Can you remind me again, what that problem is?

OriOri.8724:

Wanze.8410:

Pifil.5193:

Too expensive for me, of course, that’s why I said I think it’s too expensive.

I’m a seasoned player, been here since the betas and I think it’s too expensive for crafting to be a practical option for creating exotic armour. I either get my exotics from the tp or some other methods, not crafting. Saying ArenaNet had put pricing in the hands of the players conveniently ignores that they created the current situation and then washed their hands of the matter.

what you said

There’s no reason to wait for almost 4 years after the game is out to make exotics an order of magnitude more expensive to craft if they wanted it to “take longer”. If that was the reason, it would have happened far before HoT.

HoT just kittened up the leather market. You won’t admit it, because you are making kittenloads of money off leather. But HoT did kitten up the leather. It added leather to almost every recipe you will ever craft, except it added leather in quantities that reflected the glut of millions of leather that were on the market prior to HoT, and was never adjusted to reflect when that supply dried up. This is the problem. The rate of acquisition of leather does not line up with the rate of consumption, not at all. And the price of it is clear evidence of that.

There are very good reasons and for the time before HoT it wasnt about cheap crafting costs, the problem was ease of exotic acquisition through other means, that was the problem.

If they wanted to fix that, it would have taken a whole lot of changes to dungeon vendors, karma vendors, exotic loot drops, forging etc.

With HoT, they introduced a whole new set of exotic stats, which gave them the opportunity to adjust their faucets, so they made crafting the only way to obtain it to be able to have better control of acquisition costs.

And if you claim that I am making alot of gold with leather in a poor attempt trying to discredit me, please at least back up your claims.

I added a screenshot of all the leather i flipped within the last 90 days.

105g profit, a little more than 1g per day, wa-hoo.

Wanze.8410:

Can you remind me again, what that problem is?

Don’t feign ignorance. The farm did absolutely nothing to address the price of t6 leather and you know it. Hell, the announcement about the farm did more to the prices than the actual farm did! (even if only temporarily).

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Wanze.8410:

Can you remind me again, what that problem is?

Don’t feign ignorance. The farm did absolutely nothing to address the price of t6 leather and you know it. Hell, the announcement about the farm did more to the prices than the actual farm did! (even if only temporarily).

I wasnt feigning ingorance, I had the (right) suspicion that you and Anet are/were dealing with different problems.

Your problem is the high price of leather and the problem Anet wanted to adress with the leather farm was the unelastic supply of it, so they wanted to give the players the opportunity to reliably farm leather.

Its not Anets fault that the player base doesnt take up that opportunity. Actually, alot of players do, they use the centaur camp to farm their needed leather, they just use it themselves instead of selling it to you.

Even though that you are right that the announcement had more of an impact on the leather price than the actual release, you are ompletely disregarding the demand side of it.

Considering that the farm was released with a balance patch, I would say that our leather consumption was way higher after the farm got released compared to before it.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Wanze.8410:

Can you remind me again, what that problem is?

Don’t feign ignorance. The farm did absolutely nothing to address the price of t6 leather and you know it. Hell, the announcement about the farm did more to the prices than the actual farm did! (even if only temporarily).

Why would a farm that is participated in by a minority of people who want to satisfy their own demand affect the prices on a Trading Post?

Removing the demand of a few players who want to farm their own materials isn’t going to have a measurable impact on an economy filled with thousands of players that hate farming and would rather play how they want to get leather.

Wanze.8410:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Wanze.8410:

Can you remind me again, what that problem is?

Don’t feign ignorance. The farm did absolutely nothing to address the price of t6 leather and you know it. Hell, the announcement about the farm did more to the prices than the actual farm did! (even if only temporarily).

I wasnt feigning ingorance, I had the (right) suspicion that you and Anet are/were dealing with different problems.

Your problem is the high price of leather and the problem Anet wanted to adress with the leather farm was the unelastic supply of it, so they wanted to give the players the opportunity to reliably farm leather.

Its not Anets fault that the player base doesnt take up that opportunity. Actually, alot of players do, they use the centaur camp to farm their needed leather, they just use it themselves instead of selling it to you.

Even though that you are right that the announcement had more of an impact on the leather price than the actual release, you are ompletely disregarding the demand side of it.

Considering that the farm was released with a balance patch, I would say that our leather consumption was way higher after the farm got released compared to before it.

Except the leather drop rate at the farm is so low the supply rate is STILL inelastic. I get more leather from salvaging in anywhere else in the HoT or LS3 zones than I do from the 50 or so hides I get from the doric leather farm.

Wanze.8410:

OriOri.8724:

Wanze.8410:

Pifil.5193:

Too expensive for me, of course, that’s why I said I think it’s too expensive.

I’m a seasoned player, been here since the betas and I think it’s too expensive for crafting to be a practical option for creating exotic armour. I either get my exotics from the tp or some other methods, not crafting. Saying ArenaNet had put pricing in the hands of the players conveniently ignores that they created the current situation and then washed their hands of the matter.

what you said

There’s no reason to wait for almost 4 years after the game is out to make exotics an order of magnitude more expensive to craft if they wanted it to “take longer”. If that was the reason, it would have happened far before HoT.

HoT just kittened up the leather market. You won’t admit it, because you are making kittenloads of money off leather. But HoT did kitten up the leather. It added leather to almost every recipe you will ever craft, except it added leather in quantities that reflected the glut of millions of leather that were on the market prior to HoT, and was never adjusted to reflect when that supply dried up. This is the problem. The rate of acquisition of leather does not line up with the rate of consumption, not at all. And the price of it is clear evidence of that.

There are very good reasons and for the time before HoT it wasnt about cheap crafting costs, the problem was ease of exotic acquisition through other means, that was the problem.

If they wanted to fix that, it would have taken a whole lot of changes to dungeon vendors, karma vendors, exotic loot drops, forging etc.

With HoT, they introduced a whole new set of exotic stats, which gave them the opportunity to adjust their faucets, so they made crafting the only way to obtain it to be able to have better control of acquisition costs.

And if you claim that I am making alot of gold with leather in a poor attempt trying to discredit me, please at least back up your claims.

I added a screenshot of all the leather i flipped within the last 90 days.

105g profit, a little more than 1g per day, wa-hoo.

Haha you bought them for 21s!

Wonder how many people complaining are hitting buy instantly.

Players always tend to focus on sell prices rather than buy prices. Unless you don’t expect your buy orders to be fullfilled, I don’t see the point in complaining about sell prices. I’m more likely to complain about rising hard wood prices than I am to complain about hard leather prices. That’s just my opinion though.

Well let’s put this into action.

I have 330 hardened leather, and need to build 10 exotic insignia for 10 pieces of ascended marauder armor, along with 2 ascended armor of some other stat (4 for mesmer, and 6 for thief) That’s 300 hardened leather, so I’m safe, but since I am going to craft everything manually and can’t and won’t need it all at once for both characters (need to figure out stats for some) thus I can afford to wait a bit. So since leather [rices are like this, why not sell a bunch and try to get it back?

I sold 210 (couldn’t resist) for a total of 120. So I’m going to make 4 pieces first, and then see what will happen. It seems like I will need a lot more thick leather (crap I sold a stack last night)…. Fortunately, it seems cheaper today. This will probably take a while.

Or should I just put in some buy orders for 25s? :p

Of course, I do run out I could make soldier armor and then convert it later.

Faaris.8013:

Obtena.7952:

Anet has done exactly the correct thing here; allow players to take more control of the market by introducing more bandwidth to farm. The market will dictate the price all goods in it; it’s completely self-regulating.

Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself here. ArenaNet acted deliberately to control the market by adding more hardened leather to the economy (Centaur farm in Lake Doric for example). That is the opposite of “it’s completely self-regulating”. It is not self-regulating if the world’s god feels the need to intervene in the economy. That’s like saying the French agriculture economy is self-regulating while recognising that it is heavily subsidized by the government.

I think ArenaNet is doing a good job balancing the economy btw, in most games, it’s too easy to get currency, and that’s no fun either.

Um, no, that’s a misunderstanding on you’re part …. The market is completely self-regulating because players are responsible for posting and buying mats from it. Anet did not ‘deliberately try to control’ any market. They simply introduced a more focused way to get mats that didn’t exist because they thought the old situation was unfair. Again, up to players to decide if those mats make it to the TP.

Does the leather farm actually generate enough hardened leather?

ArchonWing.9480:

Does the leather farm actually generate enough hardened leather?

I don’t understand how that’s a valid question … what is ‘enough’?

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Does the leather farm actually generate enough hardened leather?

I don’t understand how that’s a valid question … what is ‘enough’?

Uhh, if it took a year to get 10, I would call it not enough.

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

At the rate some people are saying, nine hours.

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

At the rate some people are saying, nine hours.

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

I am fairly apathetic, personally.

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

That is a strawman.

I never claimed that it was to be good for everyone. Certainly not enough to capitalize it.

Well, I don’t get what you’re trying to do here …. if you already acknowledge it’s not good for everyone, then what’s the point of baiting people into accusing them of make strawmans or asking their (irrelevant) opinion about how acceptable it takes to farm something? Do you have a point at all?

You’re saying someone’s opinion is a valid point to ask, assumingly to make some point … but you haven’t said how or why.

Obtena.7952:

Well, I don’t get what you’re trying to do here …. if you already acknowledge it’s not good for everyone, then what’s the point of baiting people into accusing them of make strawmans or asking their (irrelevant) opinion about how acceptable it takes to farm something? Do you have a point at all?

You’re saying someone’s opinion is a valid point to ask, assumingly to make some point … but you haven’t said how or why.

Of course you don’t get it, because you’ve just dismissed what I have to say to begin with. And honestly, you have no one else to blame if your arguments aren’t logically sound.

I made an inquiry questioning whether or not the leather farm generates enough leather? This answer will vary from person to person, but I want to observe different perspectives. If someone says yes, I want to know what they were aiming for. If someone says no, I also want to know that.

I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you are dismissing this issue, because guess what, the very point of a farm is to gather a certain amount of material in a certain amount of time. So if someone comes by to ask “Is the leather farm good if I want to make [insert thing that needs hardened leather”, then should we go “Nah, bro, it doesn’t matter at all, just do whatever you feel like it”. Or would you try and give them more realistic expectations? Say, it’ll take 5 hours or 10 hours, or 20, and then let them decide whether it’s worth it or not.

There is no dismissing here. You think you need to ask people if the leather farm potential is reasonable, just to observe different perspectives? I think that’s … interesting. I can tell you right now without asking anyone that if you have been paying attention to the forums on this topic, you have all the perspectives you need without asking for them.

The point of the lather farm is not to gather a CERTAIN amount of material in a CERTAIN amount of time. That depends COMPLETELY on the individual and the situation of the map. There are no set minimums. It makes no sense to tell someone if the leather farm is ‘worth it’ or not … depends on the person doing it. Again, you’re trying to create an objective measure with subjective opinions? That makes no sense.

Obtena.7952:

There is no dismissing here. You think you need to ask people if the leather farm potential is reasonable, just to observe different perspectives? I think that’s … interesting. I can tell you right now without asking anyone that if you have been paying attention to the forums on this topic, you have all the perspectives you need without asking for them.

Specifics though. Context. If someone tells you that they want to make ascended armor for all 60 of their alts, then are you’re going to pretend that’s a typical case with a straight face?

The point of the lather farm is not to gather a CERTAIN amount of material in a CERTAIN amount of time. That depends COMPLETELY on the individual and the situation of the map. There are no set minimums. It makes no sense to tell someone if the leather farm is ‘worth it’ or not … depends on the person doing it. Again, you’re trying to create an objective measure with subjective opinions? That makes no sense.

So are you really going to argue that some farms in this game are not more effective than others for certain purposes and it’s only a matter of opinion? That people don’t go do meta events like Auric Basin and don’t just run around killing Moas in Queensdale for things? Is that the kind of advice you should offer to a random player, instead of pointing out known options and then letting subjectivity enter?

And they’re not just subjective opinions. They’re actual experiences of people that play the game in practice, you know something actually concrete, which is a lot more than a lot of hot air and theory.

And no, not everything is completely subjective because there are only so many things that requires hardened leather. That narrows the goal down by default. You can imagine all you want, but 29 hardened leather isn’t going to make you an insignia. You need 30.

Drop rates are objective. Material requirements are objectives. Rate of acquisition can be objective with variance. The analysis of all this is the subjective part.

ArchonWing.9480:

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

At the rate some people are saying, nine hours.

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

I am fairly apathetic, personally.

/shrug

I view the TP as part of the game so it doesn’t really bother me personally. I never farmed mats before and I don’t see myself doing it anytime in the future.

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

At the rate some people are saying, nine hours.

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

I am fairly apathetic, personally.

/shrug

I view the TP as part of the game so it doesn’t really bother me personally. I never farmed mats before and I don’t see myself doing it anytime in the future.

It doesn’t bother me either; I find the idea of farming specific materials self defeating, and I’d rather sell my thick leather to get hardened leather if needed. Or whatever is profitable.

Still though, it seems like people were complaining that they were unable to farm hardened leather specifically from the leather farm, and that leads me to think that things could be changed. Or not. 9 hours doesn’t seem good or bad to me. In my opinion, of course.

I am definitely curious how my experiment/gamble will pan out. I think in the 2 -3 months it’ll take me to craft all the damask/elonian, that I will have acquired most of the hardened leather back, but we’ll see. I’m willing to wait for that or a price drop.

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

A drop rate that everyone would find adequate would drop the price back into the 10s of copper as it was pre-HoT. What players need to do is plan ahead, farm a bit every few days so you build up a personal supply when you decide you need it, even if it’s not 180 for an entire set it would significantly decrease your out of pocket expense.

Except we live in a society now that demands immediate gratification. That’s why it’s all about rushing through the content as fast as possible and then complain there is nothing to do anymore.

Behellagh.1468:

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

A drop rate that everyone would find adequate would drop the price back into the 10s of copper as it was pre-HoT. What players need to do is plan ahead, farm a bit every few days so you build up a personal supply when you decide you need it, even if it’s not 180 for an entire set it would significantly decrease your out of pocket expense.

I don’t think it has to be at either extreme. I mean silk is kinda cheap, but it’s still not vendor trash.

Except we live in a society now that demands immediate gratification. That’s why it’s all about rushing through the content as fast as possible and then complain there is nothing to do anymore.

It certainly is the case. I don’t disagree.

I’m not even asking for cheaper leather prices. I mean, as I stated earlier in the thread, I sold more than half of my stock for 34s. It’d be even nicer if the prices climbed higher, but it’s not just about me is it? So here I am approaching the leather farm with skepticism.

See, I just adapt. If prices drop, I make more stuff. If prices rise, I sell more stuff. (and buy it back with buy orders as needed) Missing some ascended pieces on some toons isn’t going to kill me. So I’m willing to wait, unlike people. That’s why I don’t suffer these grief problems. But I won’t claim everything is alright though just because I can manage.

And no, you can’t please everyone. There’s always going to be someone with extraordinary demands, like the person that demands 20 sets of ascended armor or something. But that doesn’t mean we might be able to cover more people if say, the leather farm was able to fulfill someone’s needs after a certain amount of play deemed worthy by the game’s creators.