Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

A drop rate that everyone would find adequate would drop the price back into the 10s of copper as it was pre-HoT. What players need to do is plan ahead, farm a bit every few days so you build up a personal supply when you decide you need it, even if it’s not 180 for an entire set it would significantly decrease your out of pocket expense.

Except we live in a society now that demands immediate gratification. That’s why it’s all about rushing through the content as fast as possible and then complain there is nothing to do anymore.

Oh quit with that kitten “argument” already.

This comment is proof that you wouldn’t be satisfied if leather dropped so quickly from this farm that the price dropped to 10s of copper, so obviously not everyone would find that drop rate acceptable.

Stop trying to pass pure kitten off as actual arguments.

OriOri.8724:

Behellagh.1468:

Obtena.7952:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

It’s not relevant if some people find the rate of leather you get from the farm adequate. I mean, the very fact that this is subjective is exactly what it’s not a relevant question … Anet can’t reasonably choose a rate of leather drop that EVERYONE will find adequate. That’s just ridiculous. There is no objective way to kitten if the farm is successful … if you’re using subjective ways to measure it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

Does anyone here actually have a point of reference for this? How long did it take to get 180 through farming prior to Doric Lake? How does this question even matter?

A drop rate that everyone would find adequate would drop the price back into the 10s of copper as it was pre-HoT. What players need to do is plan ahead, farm a bit every few days so you build up a personal supply when you decide you need it, even if it’s not 180 for an entire set it would significantly decrease your out of pocket expense.

Except we live in a society now that demands immediate gratification. That’s why it’s all about rushing through the content as fast as possible and then complain there is nothing to do anymore.

Oh quit with that kitten “argument” already.

This comment is proof that you wouldn’t be satisfied if leather dropped so quickly from this farm that the price dropped to 10s of copper, so obviously not everyone would find that drop rate acceptable.

Stop trying to pass pure kitten off as actual arguments.

It’s no more hyperbole than those on the other side of the discussion is using to frame those who disagree with them as “TP Mavens” who don’t want to see the price drop.

So throwing this back into your court, what would be an acceptable drop rate of T6 sections in an hour of the leather farm, for you? Enough to make six insignia? one?

What’s the T6 rate for ore or wood, since those nodes are sparse.

I find arguing about the drop rate to be mostly meaningless regardless, because the root of the problem is the recipes. Discussions would be much better in my opinion if they centered around the recipes and not the drop rate from a particular farm.

But since you are asking, its not unreasonable to expect a higher drop rate for T6 leather from this farm than what you get from just regular play in LD and BF. Yet unstable hides, the ones you get all the time from regular enemy drops in those maps, have a higher drop rate for T6 leather than the bloodstone warped hides. So, considering its supposed to be a farm, the drop rates are way off its they are worse than just ambient play.

So you won’t say how many T6 sections per hour would be satisfactory, for you. Why am I’m not surprised.

Sure they could have nerfed the recipes, at least the refinement one, say 3:1 to 5:2 but I don’t think they will change the patch recipe just for T6 insignia. I like recipes across tiers to be the same ratio of components, with the exception of T7 because, T7. So that leaves drop rates for the farm they added. What is enough on a personal scale to satisfy the player and maybe provide incentive enough through selling on the TP to do them without the “tragedy of the commons” happening.

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

There is no dismissing here. You think you need to ask people if the leather farm potential is reasonable, just to observe different perspectives? I think that’s … interesting. I can tell you right now without asking anyone that if you have been paying attention to the forums on this topic, you have all the perspectives you need without asking for them.

Specifics though. Context. If someone tells you that they want to make ascended armor for all 60 of their alts, then are you’re going to pretend that’s a typical case with a straight face?

The point of the lather farm is not to gather a CERTAIN amount of material in a CERTAIN amount of time. That depends COMPLETELY on the individual and the situation of the map. There are no set minimums. It makes no sense to tell someone if the leather farm is ‘worth it’ or not … depends on the person doing it. Again, you’re trying to create an objective measure with subjective opinions? That makes no sense.

So are you really going to argue that some farms in this game are not more effective than others for certain purposes and it’s only a matter of opinion? That people don’t go do meta events like Auric Basin and don’t just run around killing Moas in Queensdale for things? Is that the kind of advice you should offer to a random player, instead of pointing out known options and then letting subjectivity enter?

And they’re not just subjective opinions. They’re actual experiences of people that play the game in practice, you know something actually concrete, which is a lot more than a lot of hot air and theory.

And no, not everything is completely subjective because there are only so many things that requires hardened leather. That narrows the goal down by default. You can imagine all you want, but 29 hardened leather isn’t going to make you an insignia. You need 30.

Drop rates are objective. Material requirements are objectives. Rate of acquisition can be objective with variance. The analysis of all this is the subjective part.

Honestly, you lost me here a bit because there are few facts that I think are being ignored here to complain about these things:

1. An area where people can focus on farming leather was introduced for EXACTLY that reason; to give people that choice. It’s got nothing to do with Anet trying to control price or the market or whatever other ideas people have.
2. The rates that things drop there have little to do with anything ingame. In otherwords, I can’t see anything that convinces me that Anet determined the rates based on recipes or how long it would take for this or that to happen. They made a place, they applied some drop rate and called it day.
3. None of this is right or wrong; Just like anything else in this game. It’s not worked out to the last little detail based on what Johnny thinks or Sally wants. It’s not meant to satisfy anyone’s idea about what a ‘good’ amount of leather is for farming. It’s just there if you want to do it.

This is the list of things that makes me think there isn’t a problem here:

1. There is no ‘too expensive’ for a mat, ESPECIALLY when you have the choice to farm or craft mats in a focused manner. The price, and all these activities are intimately related and can’t be separated.
2. There is always a some people happy and some people unhappy. Therefore, that’s not a argument for change, ever.
3. The market is working and as intended. There is buying and selling of these mats every day.

And no, I don’t think it’s appropriate to give a new player my biased advice, simply because I don’t know what their threshold is, or how reasonable they are, or what they consider ‘too expensive’ or ‘too hard’ to do. That’s way overstepping and it’s a bad practice. Simply present the facts you know … they can decide from there.

Obtena.7952:

1. An area where people can focus on farming leather was introduced for EXACTLY that reason; to give people that choice. It’s got nothing to do with Anet trying to control price or the market or whatever other ideas people have.

I never said that it was supposed to lower prices didn’t I? Establishing the goal of giving people a choice to acquire leather is the goal, more or less?

2. The rates that things drop there have little to do with anything ingame. In otherwords, I can’t see anything that convinces me that Anet determined the rates based on recipes or how long it would take for this or that to happen. They made a place, they applied some drop rate and called it day.

That doesn’t mean the drop rate can’t be questioned. Considering the drop rate does affect the farm objectively speaking, regardless of how much it subjectively drops, it is worth discussing, and certainly not with you deciding what is relevant or not.

Essentially, the only way to disagree with this is to make the claim “As long as it drops leather somewhere, it is a leather farm”.

3. None of this is right or wrong; Just like anything else in this game. It’s not worked out to the last little detail based on what Johnny thinks or Sally wants. It’s not meant to satisfy anyone’s idea about what a ‘good’ amount of leather is for farming. It’s just there if you want to do it.

Changes in the game certainly can be based on what players want. We don’t make changes based on individuals because the game is composed more than one individual.

But while claims of subjectivity sound clever on the surface, the truth is it is nothing but an empty statement. Just like how one can say that if Johnny or Sally thinks the leather is too low can’t be proven correct, you can also claim the opposite too. Opinions aren’t invalidated just because people can hold conflicting opinions. What you’re missing here is that two opinions don’t have to be mutually exclusive. This is really just yet another attempt to sound objective but ultimately pushing one’s own opinion which is just that. Not much of a discussion, is it?

And it’s really irrelevant anyways, since we are customers to the game. Difficulty is subjective too; yet they have altered the difficulty due to complaints too. Since collection of materials is related to difficulty, then what is the big deal?

Again, I don’t see where this is going. The bottomline is that while it’s nice to have some academic discussions, it’s not being done without a fundamental purpose of trying to change the game. That’s not going to happen simply because people have opinions about things; it’s not a vote and it’s not a popularity contest; change happens because something doesn’t work the way Anet wants it to. If players want changes, they have to make sensible arguments about why that change needs to happen.

I’ve outlined the reasons I see from ingame why this will not change. I think if people understand what Anet was doing (it’s not hard, they told us), then all this attempt to find academic reasons to change it melt away because frankly, they aren’t worth considering if the game is working as normal. It’s not an economic experiment to test someone’s PhD theory … it’s a game that has practical implications to it’s players.

I guess if you want to wax academic, I will just let you do so at this point. I see no value in it.

I know it’s not a democracy. That’s not the same as having consumer complaints matter.

As for the rest, unless you actually work there, I would stop trying to speak on behalf of Anet.

I don’t care what company you work for, your consumer complaints have to also be objective. “Leather is too expensive” is not an objective statement, so it’s not a reasonable complaint. I shouldn’t have to explain the difference between what is and isn’t a reasonable complaint; someone’s subjective opinion about leather prices doesn’t really fall into something that a complaint category that would be associated with something wrong with the way the game works.

I don’t need to speak on behalf of Anet to know what is a reasonable way to approach them … in fact they tell us how. Also, anyone that’s played enough MMO’s knows how this works too; you can see it, as long as you’re not making assumptions for why devs change things …. like when people assume Anet put in leather farm because ‘prices’.

I don’t care what company you work for, your consumer complaints have to also be objective. “Leather is too expensive” is not an objective statement, so it’s not a reasonable complaint.

Nor is “This skin is ugly” or “This content is difficult”. Doesn’t mean it’s completely invalid.

I shouldn’t have to explain the difference between what is and isn’t a reasonable complaint; someone’s subjective opinion about leather prices doesn’t really fall into something that a complaint category that would be associated with something wrong with the way the game works.

Funny, since your whole statement is subjective.

I don’t need to speak on behalf of Anet to know what is a reasonable way to approach them … in fact they tell us how. Also, anyone that’s played enough MMO’s knows how this works too; you can see it, as long as you’re not making assumptions for why devs change things …. like when people assume Anet put in leather farm because ‘prices’.

Ah, an assessment made completely of one’s own experience with no actual data. Sounds subjective to me.

See the irony in labeling fact and opinion? I’m sure this all works as an absolute truth in your head, but I’m afraid not everyone agrees.

Yeah actually, those customer complaints are completely invalid exactly for that reason. It’s simply biased subjective opinion. I can complain I don’t get 6 cup holders in my car too … should Toyota get right on that ‘problem’? If you can’t separate a complaint from what is a real problem that Anet should fix, then I don’t see how you’re being reasonable her.e

Sooo…. Anet has never adjusted difficulty despite the fact that some don’t find that content hard at all and others do.

See, it doesn’t even have to be a complaint. It can be an issue. People who accidentially delete their items also don’t have a valid case, but why do they get assisted?

I really don’t like to pull out experience and things here, but considering that I have been a filter for feedback for this very game, I’m just going to say that you shouldn’t really speak so authoritatively on what they should and should not acknowledge. I don’t even think that I would be such a judge either, even though I will present counterarguments as such.

I don’t get your point. I don’t see the connection between Anet not adjusting difficulty and the opinions people have on it … and what we are talking about here with people finding pricing for hardened leather.

If it’s not a problem, why would Anet bother fixing it? People’s subjective opinion about some topic does not turn that topic into something Anet should fix. Frankly, Anet has already done what was needed. People complained about leather, Anet realized it was unfair to hold people hostage through the TP, so they added this. If your point is that Anet should do something … well, they did.

And yes, you shouldn’t be pulling out experience here in this case … Anet implemented a fix for what they recognized is a deficiency in leather supply. I don’t need to guess to speak with authority; you can ignore the fact that Anet has already explained this all to us if you like. I don’t. You make it sound like Anet ignores players when the reality is that players complained here and they acted with a solution.

I don’t think you seem to understand the relationship between players and Anet here. They do listen and if they feel there is something there, they DO act. At BEST, you can only provide more of your subjective opinion that you dislike the result. You see, I’m pretty convinced this is a great example of how unreasonable players actually are because Anet did hear the complaint and act on it … but still people complain. /shrug.

Simple— they’re both inherently subjective things. You seem to be claiming that only objective complaints are worth any consideration, no?

People complained about leather, Anet realized it was unfair to hold people hostage through the TP, so they added this. If your point is that Anet should do something … well, they did.

So you admit they did do something. Now, perhaps we could use more tweaking. Is that unreasonable?

I don’t think you seem to understand the relationship between players and Anet here. They do listen and if they feel there is something there,

As a former forum specialist, I think do know a bit more on this subject about what feedback they desire. And to put this as politely as possible, you’re not giving them enough credit so please stop with the speculation. They are smart enough to filter things out and not have to have people dictate what can and can not be discussed.

Oh yea, and why are you directing this at me personally, when I have stated repeatedly, that I am not here to complain? I’m trying to find a point of understanding with people that are complaining, and you are not helping.

I didn’t claim they didn’t do something here … that would be rather stupid considering it’s obvious they did. It’s unreasonable on lots of levels. Maybe it doesn’t occur to you it simply doesn’t need to be tweaked. I mean, if you can’t really justify why it should be, other than a few opinions, then why would they? There is a business element you aren’t considering of how they should be using their people to do important things.

Then they did act, possibly based on subjective complaints that you deemed invalid then.

Maybe it doesn’t occur to you it simply doesn’t need to be tweaked.

lol. Maybe I did? On the top of this very page:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ayrilana.1396:

ArchonWing.9480:

Obtena.7952:

OK … say you’re asking me if it takes a year to get 10 hardened leather squares from the farm? No I don’t think it does.

No, I am saying it is a valid question to ask, even if the answer may vary from person to person.

I brought up 10 in a year to show that most people would not find it adrquate. So despite it being subjective there comes a point where it doesn’t help anyone.

A realistic scenario would be to ask how long it would take to gather the 180 needed for a set of armor.

At the rate some people are saying, nine hours.

Do you find 9 hours acceptable, solely for the leather?

I am fairly apathetic, personally.

/shrug

I view the TP as part of the game so it doesn’t really bother me personally. I never farmed mats before and I don’t see myself doing it anytime in the future.

It doesn’t bother me either; I find the idea of farming specific materials self defeating, and I’d rather sell my thick leather to get hardened leather if needed. Or whatever is profitable.

Still though, it seems like people were complaining that they were unable to farm hardened leather specifically from the leather farm, and that leads me to think that things could be changed. Or not. 9 hours doesn’t seem good or bad to me. In my opinion, of course.

You seem to assume that I want them to lower leather prices or be able to farm more leather. That’s simply not the case. And we were having a decent discussion too, even if it’s not really in your interest.

It seems pretty clear to me that you don’t have an interest in this subtopic. If you don’t find it relevant or interesting, then that is fine, but you should really stop misrepresenting my stances or making assumptions about me personally or attaching other people’s stances to me. It just doesn’t look good.

I’m not going to assuming them acting was based on subjective complaints … I’m not sitting in their office listen to their conversations and seeing what they read. I’m saying people complained and they did made a change. Was that a subjective complaint that spurred that? I don’t know.

The funny part is that the solution they implemented for this actually doesn’t address the subjective complaints that people had and still have about the price of leather … so take that for what it’s worth about how much Anet values the subjective opinions of players. Frankly, I think VERY few people that complain actually recognize the root cause of the problems they think they have. Why does no one complain about 2s elder wood? Considering how much you need for a legendary, that can cost you tons … probably because you can farm it and it would be unreasonable to complain about it. I dont’ see the difference here. Now people can farm leather, the complaint makes no sense because you get it with time and not just gold now. Those are the two currencies in any MMO; Anet knows that, so do reaosnable players.

I don’t think it takes much to recognize that someone saying something is too expensive has almost no value as a problem statement when it comes to market forces. Anet’s goal isn’t to give people cheap mats; it’s to have a working economy. I don’t need to work there to see that.

Before HoT, there were millions of unsold T5 and T6 leather sections on the TP. Objective.

Changes were made in recipes and there is no longer a glut. Objective.

Price is too high. Subjective.

Most complaints on these boards can be reduced down to someone wanting X because they will be more entertained. Entertainment is completely and utterly subjective. There are no really objective complaints other than those about bugs.

ANet is in the entertainment business. Thus, every complaint is valuable information about their customer base. ANet has made a lot of changes to GW2 in the last 4.5+ years in response to such subjective player complaints. For instance, there were a lot of complaints about the price of gathering materials being too low. In response to those complaints, ANet made changes to the game which changed that. So don’t tell us that ANet does not act based on peoples’ subjective complaints. They just don’t act on all of them.

They can’t. All customers do not necessarily agree on what they want. Also, the business realities of running an MMO can conflict with player desires — particularly the desires of players who want instant (or at least rapid) gratification, which is contrary to MMO business design. Finally, as much as ANet might want to keep everyone happy, the amount of work needed to get anywhere close to such would be prohibitive.

I think bottom line, the problem remains that in current state the players that picked medium armor classes and need armor of certain stats (hello raid/dungeon/wvw groups that want you to run certain build or you are not welcome) that can’t be simply bought are in huge disadvantage compared to other. This is plain and unnecessary class discrimination.

I am veteran player myself, i mainly pvp and raid so i don’t exactly have huge gold income like pve’ers or zerglings from wvw do. I just avoid crafting like fire when i gear new characters as it is the most (and extremely) costy and worst way to get gear atm. For me (as mainly thief player) crafting is obsolete atm thanks to the prices.

I don’t even want to think how bad it is for new players that still have to lv up crafting and get gear for their first characters with proper stats so they actually get accepted in parties (sup raid groups blindly following meta) and able to participate in group events/activities (which is MMORPG is all about).

Cynz.9437 ahahaha veteran

Could u remember light vs medium armor price about 3 years ago? “This is plain and unnecessary class discrimination.” – yap yap

Almost full set + wings for free in pvp s5 for every noob.
Fractal t4 boxes is easy way.
I am not a raider but i can just go and buy full set from vendor, just killing some bosses))) Every one can raid in exotic…

bulauchenka.5382:

Cynz.9437 ahahaha veteran

Could u remember light vs medium armor price about 3 years ago? “This is plain and unnecessary class discrimination.” – yap yap

Almost full set + wings for free in pvp s5 for every noob.
Fractal t4 boxes is easy way.
I am not a raider but i can just go and buy full set from vendor, just killing some bosses))) Every one can raid in exotic…

What is sooooo funny about me saying “veteran”. I would like to hear all about it.

Did i say that light vs medium price was ok? Please show me where i did. Otherwise all i see is baseless and hostile “yap yap”.

We are not in s5 and it just proves my point, that getting gear via crafting is not worth it and obsolete.
Yeah everyone can raid in exotics, that is assuming you can get into group with exotics that can be bought on TP. If you play a class that requires crafted exotics (hello engis) not to mention if you are relatively new player, gl with that.

WvW have badges to get their exotic armor (and also badges to get trinkets for less laurels so sure they might not be able to run the most specific builds, but it’s not particularly hard to gear up.

It’s also one of the actual places where you do have leather synthesizers, granted it’s not much, but it gives the lower level leather needed for ascended.

The raids things seems arbitrary to me. Raids are high end content, and not for new players anyways, especially not for various exclusive groups that aren’t new player friendly to begin with…. That is really not a problem with gear, but with people.

It’s also a different topic, because exotic armor and ascended armor have diffrent issues. Exotic armor is mostly bottlenecked by hard leather, while ascended armor is mostly t2-t5 leather.