Guild Wars 2

I think one of the main problems with this game is that 80 is simply too many levels. On the surface, it’s easy to think “why does it matter?”, but if you think critically on it, it has a few pretty serious negative impacts on the game and no discernible positive ones:

a.) the event of gaining a level and gaining the rewards from it quickly starts feeling mundane and even trite when it should be exciting.

b.) to keep the game from being too boring and repetitive, you go through each level quickly. This has a negative impact on crafting in particular and causes numerous facets of the game to just feel pointless until you reach the level cap – most notably transmutation and certain aspects of gearing (i.e you replace your gear too quickly to ever really care about specific builds or runes and sigils).

I think they should lower the maximum level to something like 40 and just adjust the growth curve to compensate. This would give you more time to explore various aspects of the game while leveling since you won’t be making things obsolete so quickly. This would also allow them to make level rewards a bit more interesting.

I tend to agree somewhat, but not for the same reasons.
But they wont delevel people and delevel zones/mobs/etc just for the reasons you put out.

They will keep it like this now, and until the end of tyria, unless they one day increase level and give us a new level to look forward too.

They can get rewards more interesting just by reducing loot by 50% (my mouse will thank a-net if they ever do this) and just give us better loot, and the chance for better loot.

I think 80 is fine… Don’t fix what isn’t broke.

a.) how would making it level 40 vs 80 be any different? Leveling is the path to your eventual goal… It’s not always going to be the most exciting thing in the world.

b.) How would slowing down the level progression speed make wasting trans charges on leveling gear any better? It would end up being the EXACT same feeling, I save my charges for my end game gear, I don’t buy ruins etc till I have my end game gear because it’s a waste of money to worry about on leveling junk.

Thanks to dynamic leveling, almost no part of the open world feels “obsolete” once you out level it, you an still go back to lower areas, gain exp, loot, map completion, and have fun.

Miku.6297:

I think 80 is fine… Don’t fix what isn’t broke.

a.) how would making it level 40 vs 80 be any different? Leveling is the path to your eventual goal… It’s not always going to be the most exciting thing in the world.

b.) How would slowing down the level progression speed make wasting trans charges on leveling gear any better? It would end up being the EXACT same feeling, I save my charges for my end game gear, I don’t buy ruins etc till I have my end game gear because it’s a waste of money to worry about on leveling junk.

Thanks to dynamic leveling, almost no part of the open world feels “obsolete” once you out level it, you an still go back to lower areas, gain exp, loot, map completion, and have fun.

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

I think the whole concept of levels is boring at this point. I haven’t found leveling up in any RPG exciting in years.

Meaningful progression is something like learning a new ability. That happens sometimes when leveling up, and those levels are exciting.

So if you want a better system cut out levels entirely and all the progression should be meaningful progression milestones only.

One of the best things about GW1 was learning elite skills. Hitting level 20 was just the beginning. You had to go find specific boss enemies and kill them to learn their elite skill. I loved going out on an expedition for the purpose of a specific progression choice.

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

I have a feeling most people would continue to just use what they find, as they level, it’s going to be replaced any way, it’s rarely worth the trouble to buy new sets of armor, weapons, jewelry and sigils/runes as you level. I really don’t think slowing the level curve down like that would make people feel good about it.

If you think critically about your suggestion, currently: you level quickly replacing gear fast, making it feel “less” important and more like a waste of money to upgrade every chance you get. Because gear comes in and upgrades out fast, using what you find, and just playing is a very viable option. You are not forced to buy anything to keep up, and keep leveling at a fast/decent pace.

Your suggestion would encourage people to buy gear to fit their class, and rune/sigil it etc because they would be stuck wearing it longer… However what if they don’t get the stats they need as a drop? What if they don’t get the runes etc? They have to go to the TP to buy it so they can keep leveling at a good pace?

Einlanzer.1627:

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

Actually it is relevant, unless the only aspect of the game you are talking about is crafting gear and leveling… But playing the game, no area you “out level” feels obsolete thanks to dynamic leveling. This gives you plenty of time to explore various aspects of the game while leveling since areas don’t become obsolete.

Leveling was intentionally designed to be many quick levels rather than few longer levels. The difference between a level 80 and 40 cap would simply be dividing everything in half, with each level taking twice as long. It was meant to be casual friendly. They wanted people to see progress at a reliable rate, which is why they chose an average of 1 hour per level.

As for gear, changing the level cap now would make no difference because the stat difference between a level X and level X+1 would simply be that much larger. Changing that would require changing everything. Personally, I don’t even bother with gear while leveling and only equip what the personal story and level up rewards give me.

If you actually explore the game however, as in look for hidden areas, listen to the ambience, explore all event outcomes, etc, then leveling will take far longer.

OP, you’d be surprised how many people crave the validation of “dinging” and want it as often as possible and as quickly as possible.

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

While I have long thought the best way to go is abandon “level’s” entirely and go to a a different progression system (like, say, GW1’s skill collecting) I have to disagree with the above point.
Replacing gear every 10 levels getting to 40 means 5 sets (starter then 4 replacements)
For 80 it’s 9 sets.
This means you have more than double the opportunities to try a different stat set/skill set/playstyle.
Yes none will be fully recognized until you hit 80 but you can get a pretty decent idea.

I hate replacing gear that much myself, my warrior was still using 55 greens when she hit 80, as she was character #7 or so and I was just powerleveling at that point.

Miku.6297:

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

If you think critically about your suggestion, currently: you level quickly replacing gear fast, making it feel “less” important and more like a waste of money to upgrade every chance you get. Because gear comes in and upgrades out fast, using what you find, and just playing is a very viable option. You are not forced to buy anything to keep up, and keep leveling at a fast/decent pace.

Your suggestion would encourage people to buy gear to fit their class, and rune/sigil it etc because they would be stuck wearing it longer… However what if they don’t get the stats they need as a drop? What if they don’t get the runes etc? They have to go to the TP to buy it so they can keep leveling at a good pace?

Einlanzer.1627:

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

Actually it is relevant, unless the only aspect of the game you are talking about is crafting gear and leveling… But playing the game, no area you “out level” feels obsolete thanks to dynamic leveling. This gives you plenty of time to explore various aspects of the game while leveling since areas don’t become obsolete.

I respect the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think it’s completely on the mark. Currently, gear becomes obsolete so fast that it’s a waste of time even paying much attention to it. If there were fewer levels, you’d want to pay more attention to it because the time you invested in it would net better results. It’s important to note that you wouldn’t necessarily be “stuck” wearing gear longer, it would just be more worthwhile than it is currently to do so. You could still replace it as much as you wanted for experimentation and skin collecting as new gear would still drop often.

At 40 levels, it still wouldn’t be perfect, but it’d be an improvement.

Dynamic leveling is not relevant because I’m not suggesting any functional changes to that system. I like that you level down to match areas to keep content from becoming obsolete and wouldn’t want that to change. I don’t see what that has to do with having more satisfying rewards for leveling and being able to wear gear for longer.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

While I have long thought the best way to go is abandon “level’s” entirely and go to a a different progression system (like, say, GW1’s skill collecting) I have to disagree with the above point.
Replacing gear every 10 levels getting to 40 means 5 sets (starter then 4 replacements)
For 80 it’s 9 sets.
This means you have more than double the opportunities to try a different stat set/skill set/playstyle.
Yes none will be fully recognized until you hit 80 but you can get a pretty decent idea.

I hate replacing gear that much myself, my warrior was still using 55 greens when she hit 80, as she was character #7 or so and I was just powerleveling at that point.

See my post above, in particular the highlighted part.

Einlanzer.1627:

I respect the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think it’s completely on the mark. Currently, gear becomes obsolete so fast that it’s a waste of time even paying much attention to it. If there were fewer levels, you’d want to pay more attention to it because the time you invested in it would net better results. It’s important to note that they wouldn’t necessarily be stuck wearing gear longer, they would just have the option of wearing gear for longer. They could still replace it as much as they wanted as new gear would still drop often.

I guess I really don’t see how doubling the time to level would increase the use for lower level gear, it would still be looked at as throw away when I out grow it gear. As long as there is a leveling system that’s going to be the case.

I was saying they would be stuck wearing it, because what if they didn’t get a drop? They have to stick with the lower level, gear for longer… Either that or buy it on the TP or you are forced to craft it yourself.

I guess what I’m saying is over all adjusting the level cap wouldn’t have a significant impact on this.

Also as for “testing” builds wouldn’t doing something like this require a rework of the recently reworked hero point system? (Sorry I havent leveled up a char in this new system)

Even still, as I pointed out my warrior hit 80 wearing level 55 gear.
It’s not required to change it every 5-10 levels, just a bit beneficial.
And as long as you’re buying greens it’s a pittance in cost anyway.

So get mighty from 1-20, etc and run each stat set longer?

Look I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, I argued before launch that 80 was too many levels, adding that many seemed to be just a bunch of unnecessary grind in the way to having fun.
GW1 had 20 before you started doing progression horizontally and that worked great, no real reason they couldn’t have done similar here except to throw a bone to the levelgrinders/gear treadmill enthusiasts who feel like if they aren’t constantly growing in level/direct power everything they do is pointless.

Granted, if I had my way, I’d devise an entirely new system. I’d do away with item levels altogether and instead use rarity as the only benchmark. I’d lower the levels dramatically (perhaps to 20) and significantly expand the available skills. I’d allow leveling multiple classes on one toon and mixing and matching skills (probably with some restrictions).

There are a lot of things I think would make this game more engaging, but most of it is completely off the table at this point.

I agree but I also hate leveling; Thanx Anet added Tomes of knownledge.

I find leveling to be fast and no concern, on top of that, leveling rewards you gear, but most time, i get gear from the mobs anyway. They areas never feel to strong or weak, and they even give you a idea how strong an area is too, so you never going somewhere blind. Just playing the game normally, i got to 80 so quickly, it was not really a problem. most gear is cheat, and the only gear that you really want to keep permenaite will be the best stuff that you only get at max level anyways, so your free to swap as often as you like before that too.

Leveling and leveled zones do more harm then good and limit potential content.

how so, plus what do you mean?

This would make sense if leveling took quite a lot of time. The thing is in this game you can level really fast if you know how to do it.
When the game was launched back in 2012, a lot of people were already level 80 before 28th August, the official launch date.

Nowadays? It’s even way easier to level with all the tons of things they have added.

Devs would need to change a lot of things to match the level scaling. Too much work to change a thing that would remain the same.

Meh, I kind of feel like the leveling process is fine. I think 5 out of my 8 level 80’s have like 20% of the map completed. As for the gear, I don’t even bother with it until level 80. Since I also don’t start my story until level 80, the loot drops from mobs has been enough for me (though gear is the least important factor in success for GW2).

EotM can be quick with a decent zerg. You get 5 tomes of knowledge from completing the Personal Story, and now that Arah is no longer a dungeon (for story), it’s even easier. Writs of experiences from dailies and tomes of knowledge from log in rewards. Crafting is also an option, just Google a guide for it and you can level 0-400 in cooking for very little cost (sell the food and leftovers).

So, while I can kind of see what you’re getting at, it’s just way too easy to level in this game to bother with changing it. Well, I kind of see your point. I don’t get why anyone would waste a transmutation charge on anything less than a level 80 exotic. I could see why people don’t wait until 80 to think about gear (I prefer to since the game is so easy and leveling is so quick), but changing your gear more often than every like 20-25 levels seems like a huge waste. Especially getting runes and sigils for that gear… But! To each their own, I guess.

Edit: Just to clarify, I know and understand that not everyone plays like I do. Some people need to have that feeling that the gear progression and such. I’m just saying, it sounds like you’re going about leveling the complicated way and wanting to suggest putting effort into something because of it.

Boy, let me tell ya, I have 16 characters and 15 of which are level 80. The one who’s not level 80 is the one I only play with a friend of mine who rarely logs in.

If ya talking about map completion, I could understand ya. After all, 16 times map completion is a pain in the butt. Non the less, this is mostly due to me being lazy.

This has been brought up many times before, and it shouldn’t happen because it’s a huge, huge overhaul, for relatively the same effect. If they lowered the cap to 40, you’d still be hitting the undead in Orr for the same amount of hits as you do now, as you’d still be at the same parr as them, just with different numbers next to yours and the NPC enemy’s names.

To do this, they’d have to completely re-work all the gear first of all, then the level differences of all the zones, from 1 – 15 maps to say, 1 – 7 and so forth. Then there’s the issue of changing all 303 renowned hearts and the gear they sell for karma.

It’s just too much for virtually no additional effect at the end.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the answers to both of your questions are a matter of common sense. It all has to do with how quickly you outlevel gear. If you get new gear every 5-10 levels out of 40 instead of every 5-10 levels out of 80, you have more of an opportunity to stay in the same gear longer, meaning it’s more worthwhile to experiment with different builds and themes without wasting nearly as much money.

Dynamic leveling is not relevant to what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any changes to that system.

While I have long thought the best way to go is abandon “level’s” entirely and go to a a different progression system (like, say, GW1’s skill collecting) I have to disagree with the above point.
Replacing gear every 10 levels getting to 40 means 5 sets (starter then 4 replacements)
For 80 it’s 9 sets.
This means you have more than double the opportunities to try a different stat set/skill set/playstyle.
Yes none will be fully recognized until you hit 80 but you can get a pretty decent idea.

I hate replacing gear that much myself, my warrior was still using 55 greens when she hit 80, as she was character #7 or so and I was just powerleveling at that point.

Uh… you do realize if they lowered the level to 40 they’d probably balance so that you’ll be wanting/needing to change your gear every five levels instead of ten, right? If everything is divided by 2, then level 40-50 zones would be 20-25 zones. 50-60 would be 25-30. Thus, you’d probably want level 20-25 gear fro the 20-25 zones and level 25-30 armor for 25-30 zones.

So, you wouldn’t be saving on how often you’re swapping out armor/runes/weapons anyway.

Not only that, but you’d have just as much time to swap around different builds. Cutting the level cap to 40 would not increase the time it takes to get to 40. It would take just as long to get to 40 in the new system as it takes to get to 80 now. Unless you’re thinking of quadrupling the experience needed for each level when you cut the cap in half, essentially making you play as long as it would take to get to 160.

Simplest fix: you can wear your gear for 20 levels instead of 10. Voila, your issues are solved and you don’t require a massive overhaul of the entire game (which would hinder most everyone else who is fine with and/or like the current 80 level system for your sake). I mean, you can play how you like here. I won’t judge you if you wear your armor for 20 levels, heck I might even do that with my Revenant just to see if its more challenging.

I was hoping they’d go from the 20 levels of Guild Wars to no levels for the sequel, but they just weren’t brave enough to continue to innovate. They decided to cop out out on all their ideals and go for the money instead, and going for the money required making people familiar with mainstream(WoW) MMORPGs comfortable. As others have said, it’s too late to change now.

The problem is, there are people out there who love to level characters and explore more zones as they’re leveling. And lest you say that you can only do that a couple of times, you’re probably wrong, since I’m appraoching 30 level 80s.

I think the change would hurt more people than it would help.

you level fast plus their is downscaling.

If a game is going to have levels, i hope for more not less.

plus i hit level 80 in like the level 40 area, 80 is fine.