Guild Wars 2

Jaken.6801:

Subclasses
Subclasses came up in the CDI and i participated there. I am against it. Why? Simply because they are allready in: Traits
Change your traits and subsequently change the effects of your ability and voila, you go from a fire guardian to a spirit weapon wielder.
Change from a Pet lving longbow master to a ninja like frontline fighter as a ranger.

I also participated heavily at that CDI, where I argued that, if traits are meant to be the replacement a subclass system, they fail at it. If traits ever work as an obstacle to a subclass system, then remove traits entirely. Or just replace them with the theorically-superior version that the subclass system is. Or make them a part of it.

jaken

lets keep this discussion for when the sub class CDI is there.
Until this point: this

If traits ever work as an obstacle to a subclass system, then remove traits entirely. Or just replace them with the superior version that the subclass system is. Or make them part of it.

traits will under its current system never work as Sub Classes, because the function of Traits in itself is very limited and based only on skill/ character effect changes.
Nothing of what a Sub Class System is really meaningful for, both systems are 2 completely different pairs of shoes.

Orpheal.8263:

jaken

lets keep this discussion for when the sub class CDI is there.
Until this point: this

If traits ever work as an obstacle to a subclass system, then remove traits entirely. Or just replace them with the superior version that the subclass system is. Or make them part of it.

traits will under its current system never work as Sub Classes, because the function of Traits in itself is very limited and based only on skill/ character effect changes.
Nothing of what a Sub Class System is really meaningful for, both systems are 2 completely different pairs of shoes.

But are they stylish and fabulous pairs of shoes?

DiogoSilva.7089:

Jaken.6801:

Subclasses
Subclasses came up in the CDI and i participated there. I am against it. Why? Simply because they are allready in: Traits
Change your traits and subsequently change the effects of your ability and voila, you go from a fire guardian to a spirit weapon wielder.
Change from a Pet lving longbow master to a ninja like frontline fighter as a ranger.

I also participated heavily at that CDI, where I argued that, if traits are meant to be the replacement a subclass system, they fail at it. If traits ever work as an obstacle to a subclass system, then remove traits entirely. Or just replace them with the theorically-superior version that the subclass system is. Or make them a part of it.

I actually did not want to go into that matter anyway, but I just have one thing to add to this.

The Traits are not in the way of the subclass system. I went a bit further into the matter in my text, so please do not ignore it.

Traits do allready give you everything subclasses would do, execept the unique naming of your class.
Other aspects of a subclass system just do not aply to Guild Wars 2 in its current form (and it is not based on the traits, it is based on the fact that the other benefits just do not apply)

As i have been saying. I like the system, but so far none of you promoting the system have given much explanation on how it could/should work and what would be so different from the systems that are already in the game.

@Orpheal
If said subclasses CDI will come in some way I will of course participate.
However you brought this topic up yourself.

Also no. Subclasses are always based on the main proffesion. a Warrior changes into a Guardian or a Weaponsmaster normaly. Which means they are focused aspects of the main profession. The Warrior does not vanish, he is still there, just focusing on another aspect of his profession.
So a Mesmer who focuses his traits on Illusion damage instead of status effects is actually going into one direction of two or more. He can allready differnciate in different paths…. like a subclass.

However, as you mentioned the Traits at the moment are indeed limited to be able to allow everyone to what they want, however as far as I know that is where the equipment comes in. Guild Wars 2 is very versitile in the way you can customize your characters.
Subclasses change the stat progression of your character? Guild Wars 2 lets you change your runes and equipment to do that.
Subclasses offers unique designs? Guild Wars 2 offers all the armors of your given armor class
Subclasses offer new skills or new effects? Guild Wars 2 offers Traits and exchangeable skills, which get added over time (why make a half a new class, if just adding skills is easier?)

If you suggest that subclasses could offer unique weaponskills, that would be a different matter, but that would be only one feature that would make subclasses in any way unique and meaningfull. Otherwise you just get the label “ritualist” on a necromancer who summons a few stationary ghosts and has a blueish aura then a green one.

With that I am done and we can get back to classes that would actually make sense.

I’d love to see a new class mixed with Paragon and Dervish.
Spears equipped in land. *__*

As you want it… part 1
I just believe, you don’t really grasp the difference between how Traits functionize for this game, and how much more a Sub Class can do what traits can’t do.

Traits exist in this game only to be able to change and adapt your playstyle by providing you a LIMITED amount of options based on some core functions of your Main Class.

In example, for a thief this would mean Initiative, Stealing, Venoms, Shadow Steps, Stealth, Traps and their current useable weapons – Daggers ,Swords, Pistols.
That are the core mechanics of a thief, which traits can change somehow, to alter how your playstyle works with those core mechanics.

Sub Classes on the other hand EXPAND your options, they improve and change not only core mechanisms, like traits do this.
No, they add also significant meaningful more options to the table.
The Trait System will always stay in itself limited, because you have only so an so much trait points, that you can make usage of.
We also won’t ever see any new trait segments or an increase in our trait points, because the whole game balance of GW2 is based on each class having only 5 different trait segements among 1 basically works a bit similar like a primary attribute that we know from GW1, because it passively affects the classes’s main core mechanic, like in this case, how fast a thief can steal again after a steal by reducing the steal cooldown, if you put trait points into Trickery.

The frame of traits is very limited, you move your build around always just only thise 5 trait segments that your main class offers you with the limited amount of trait points that you have. Just increasing the amount of trait points for more Character Progression is no option, because this would unbalance the game.

However, with Sub Classes and splitting up the trait system into Traits, Talents and Expertises, there would be suddenly alot more options to progress with your character, without having to change anything on the core balance of the trait system and its maximum amount of points that allows you just to slightly alter your playstyle to be more of something, that you like among the style of being more the control-type, more the damage dealer tyoe, or being more the support-type of player.

Sub Classes can do alot more, than to change just only your playstyle based on a limited amount of trait points.
A Sub Class as said expands your option through several unlocking mechanics, that traits can’t provide, because traits aren’t meant by their design to be an unlocking mechanism.
Sub Classes can visually change your class, not just only the name of it.
They can ad alot of new and completely different gameplay mechanics, that are unique to them or alter existing mechanics of the main class to work under Sub Class “X” completely different, without that you are forced to change any traits for this, which exist strictly only for changing your playstyle based on your used weapon, your utility skills, healing skills and so on by changing their effects, liek increasign their range, makign them more powerful than normal, lettign them deal additional conditions ect. pp
Thats all stuf,f, with that Sub Classes have absolutely nothing to do.
Sub Classes aren’t there to change your playstyle like Traits
Sub Classes are there, to expand your Class Gameplay anc to provide you new content for your class into which you have to specialize your character to unlock this way this new content for you, so that the Sub Class in itself adds an additional layer on top of the the traits to FURTHER individualize your character and class build more, than it is possible with traits just alone.

A Sub Class System can be used to add new Weapons to a Class. Traits can’t do that, as said, they aren’t designed as a unlock mechanism. Their one and only goal is it to functionie as a system, that enables you to change the effects if your skills to customize the playstyle of your chosen class to your likings
A Sub Class System can be used to implement completely new types of Utility Skills, new Healing Skilsl and new Elite Skills as far as going to say even completely new Weapon Skill sets among you can switch outside of combat, somethign that traits will never be able to do for you, because all what your traits do as said is in a very limited way change how your skills or your character’s effects actively or passively work when being used.

part 2:

A Sub Class System labels not just only the character with a new profession name, as said, they can change also completely the mechanics of a class.
Or would you believe it, that the current trait system would be able to let a mesmer become able to change into a Bard, whose shatters aren’t shatters anymore, but suddenly instead are Melodies, a completely different mechanic, thats based on the new Sub Class, rather on the core mechanic of the Mesmer?
A Bard wouldn’t be specialized anymore on Illusion Magic, but instead on Inspiration Magic and thus would have a different F-Mechanism that plays completely different that the mesmers shatters, while on the other hand there could be an other Mesmer Sub Class, that specializes alot more on Illusion Magic – namely, the Chronomancer, which would make a much more advanced usage of the Shatter System to create Time Distortions with that he can use Time Magic, the strongest form of Illusion Magic to manipulate timespace with it.

Thats all stuff ,that isn’t just possible with the trait system and thats the reason, why Sub Classes will always be superior to the current trait system of GW2, because the trait system alone of GW2 is way too much limited to be a really good character progression system by itself alone.
Thats also what was just the topic of the CDI – ways to improve the Character Progression. Sub Classes are a clear path to significantly improve Character Progression horizontally by expanding the options of how we can build our characters more individually and uniquely through adding with unlock mechanics new options to our Main Classes from which the player can choose then from, which path they want to follow.

But people naturally complained then, that they don’t like to be locked out of something, thats the reason, why Sub Classes need to be resetand changeable, just like in GW1 the dual class system was also reset and changeable for a small fee, so that you could come up with a different decision, if your don’t like your first made one at a certain poiunt anymore and you want just to test out somethign new perhaps because of beign bored with your current build.
Thats just the reason, why traits are resetable. So should be sub classes then naturally too, because they’d be just a part of the overall class build.

There are no traits in this game that would let me say, oh wow, after iven chosen those traits does my Ranger feel now like beign a real Druid.
By changing a ranger with everythign what the game provides so far only, the class just feels only like a cheap Wannabe-Druid perhaps and this was already a huge problem with GW1s even more cheaper silly dual class system. it created only tons of wannabes, but not something, that really felt and especially looked like what you wanted to create at all.

A Sub Class System could change that, if the Ranger would have a Druid Sub Class, that allows my character to use from that moment on Staffs with special nature Magic related Spells as Weapon Skills (so that the trait section Nature Magic really makes sense in this game from Rangers) and thius sub class changing my character from a medium armored class into a light armored class, receiving this way some more new nature magic realted utility skilsl and gettic specific improvements to the nature spirits, that only the Druid can use, then I would have a real Druid and not a cheap Wannabe-Druid that doesn’t look also like a druid and doesn’t really play like a druid due to missing correct skills and weapons/equipment, that only a Sub Class System can unlock for you, because such a System is meant for unlocking new things and expanding your class with lots of new options, while the Trait System is not.

PS: @ Rayden: Yes, Sub Class Shoes are a stylish different pair of Shoes, much better looking, if well produced and fabricated brought onto the market, than the Trait System Shoes :P ^^ Using them will surely make your Character look far more fabulous, because you can see then, that your character isn’t anymore that nobody of 2 years ago, but you have grown up and became something much better, than you were in the past, visually as like also in the kind of way how you fight and move with your character ect., thats why Sub Classes are for horizontal progression an absolute must, which are far exceeding the possibilities of what can be done with the old trait system shoes alone. SO I suggest you, support their production and preorder a pair of them at Chris Whiteside Ltd.

Husks. Yes, they are husks.

Jaken.6801:

Traits do allready give you everything subclasses would do, execept the unique naming of your class.

If traits were that good at replacing subclasses, then the GW2’s community would recognize the system as “pretty much a form of subclassing”. Which no one does, at all. That’s because traits clearly exist to fulfill a different, much broader purpose: to tweak existing (weapon and utility) builds. Yes, some of those traits are subclass flavored, but that is secondary only. If you were to view the trait system as a form of subclassing, it would be a highly restricting, non-focused system. That’s why no one recognizes traits as such.

Let’s look at how many obstacles traits offer against a proper subclassing system:

• Traitlines are very restricting: 5 dictated by stat placement.
• Traitlines are too broad.
• Minor traits are too broad – most of them will be out-of-flavor to any subclass you attempt to fulfill in your imagination.
• Subclass-flavored major traits are directly (mathematically or in practice) compared with non-flavored traits. Because trait picking is generally and logically dictated by balance, the game will go through lenghy periods of time where many traits without flavor will be more viable than many traits with flavor (and the other way around), and this will never change. Even if the impossible would happen, and we would get perfect balance, the fact that non-flavored traits exist and are in abundance detracts from it.
• Flavored traits within the same theme are unfocused: generally spread through different traitlines.
• Themes are unclear, hidden, unfocused. As you’ve mentioned, subclasses aren’t called by their name, and this is probably much more important than what you realize.
• Traits are a system for passive enhancements and passive procs. They do not offer active skills, nor do they change existing skills nor profession mechanics in meaningful ways.

You don’t approach the trait system thinking that you’re going to make a pyromancer or a battlemage out of your elemetanlist character. You approach the trait system and pick the most viable traits, wherever they are and what they are, and when the choice is difficult, your real questions will be “should I go more offensive or defensive?” or trait-dependend "should I have more or less condition cleansing?, etc.

To put it simply, traits are bad at subclassing. Flavor is secondary, unfocused and unclear. You can use your imagination and traiting to roleplay a bit on a subclass, but ultimately, the difference between you and another player won’t be that big, and no one will recognize your “subclass” unless you type it on chat.

to be unique somehow among rest of professions i guess some kind of shapeshifter could be a thing, it fits a bit of design of the game (the time that game is set in) and could be a bit like a feral druid from WoW. We all want to see land spear battle, but we would get rather warriors, guardians or rangers to use them, because I guess it’s hard to go around new profession theme around spear that doesn’t look too close to warrior or guardian.

Imo, it’s easy to make shapeshifter theme around heavy armor, just make armored shapeshifts – we do have a lot of unique creatures in game (who else would like to see quaggan form? give that quaggan a cookie) that could be used as forms and for 3 features for utility skills we could go with: Alertness (defensive), Nature behaviour (reactive to form abilities and evolutionism) and for example Pheromones (quick idea, we have a lot of sense abilities around – sound, sight, touch – why not smell?)

For types of forms just run http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bestiary and look how wide choice there is. Even bring some GW1 original creatures http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Creature_type
The thing to be somehow unique from elementalist (forms to attunments) would be evolutionism (you gain some kind of power as long as you stay in same form – just quick idea) – so it would be somehow opposite to elementalist who often wants to switch attunments to cast all of his spells.

Just a quick idea, I hope you like that anyhow

Quaggan!

It’s your race and proffession.

aaaand SAB mounts with capes flying around guild halls in Cantha

Sandwichmancer…

Nuff said. Make it happen Colin.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

The Skald – a heavily armored bard class that utilizes the shouts that are a common theme to the heavy professions while also packing the ability to weave complex battle arias. Clear inspiration from the GW1 paragon as well as traditional bards.

Done and done.

I want that so bad. Also able to equip a focus so I can put The Minstrel on that fella! Also would be a great time to implement new weaponry, like a battle banjo!

Duke Blackrose.4981:

The Skald – a heavily armored bard class that utilizes the shouts that are a common theme to the heavy professions while also packing the ability to weave complex battle arias. Clear inspiration from the GW1 paragon as well as traditional bards.

Done and done.

A bard class would be so sick. Maybe make it so if you use different weapon skills in different orders it would have different effects depending on the song you are “playing”.

Too bad I don’t see Anet adding any actual content besides Living Story, especially considering how broken and unbalanced their current classes and gear are.

Mechanics:
1. Soldier class profession. That is, heavy armor.
2. No swap. Higher skill ceiling than warriors and guardians.
3. To have some variety, it should try to use less used weapons.

Themes

• It would have to be ‘darker’ than warriors and guardians. Kind of a dark knight, but without the evil theme.
• More focused on ‘dirty’ conditions than them. Less fire, more poison.
• Inspired by fighting games and beat-em up games like Devil May Cry, Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Hand of God, etc. Its gameplay would be largely based on chaining attacks and combos.

Let’s check the themes in runes.

Warrior: Vitality, Power, Faster Weapon swap.
Guardian: Tougness, Healing Power, Fiery block.

Engineer: Thoughess, Condition damage, bundle damage.
Ranger: Precision, ferocity, damage with companion.
Thief: Precision, Condition damage, flanking damage.

Elementalist. Power, condition damage, burning and chill duration.
Mesmer: Power, precision, daze duration.
Necromancer: Condition damage, vitality, fear duration.

Power xxx
Precision xxx
Toughness xx
Vitality xx

Ferocity x
Condition damage xxxx
Healing power x

So I would go for…

Ferocity, Condition duration, and for the 6th rune effect, something that benefits from its profession mechanic.

For its profession mechanic, I would use chained skills in a way inspired by assassin dagger chains from GW1.

All 5 weapon skills on all weapons will be chain skills, even with ranged weapons, if the profession gets any.
The first chain will be an auto-attack with 3 skills.
Each of the other 2 to 5 weapon skills is a chain attack with 4 skills in the sequence.
When the first skill in the slots 2 to 5 is used, the skill goes on recharge, and all the 2 to 5 skills advance in their chain, but the one corresponding to the previously used skill in on recharge. The skillbar would be like this for the slots 2 to 5:

Use #3.1, 3.1 goes on recharge.

Unlike most chain attacks, the 2 to 5 skills will not go back to the first skill if not used. Only leaving combat will do that.

The 4th skill on the chains would be finishing attacks and will have requisites, like being close enough to the target, the target being disabled, target being downed, being in mid-air being surrounded by a number of enemies, etc. Using any o them without meeting re requisite would fail to activate, but will not put them on recharge.

Profession mechanic: “Combo breaker”
F1 to F4 would force the line to change:
F1: breaks to line 1, 10s recharge.
F2: breaks to line 2. 20s recharge.
F3: breaks to line 3. 40s recharge.
F4: breaks to line 4. 80s recharge.

Now that we have the profession mechanic, we go back to the rune.

Ferocity, Condition duration and “1st and 2nd skills of a chain have increased damage”.

As for the name… something that brings fighting games to mind:

- Challenger
- Fighter
- Combatant
- Chainer, etc.

Dervish/Shaolin Monk, BUT with polearms, not scythes. Same basic combat style, far more versatility in weapon choice and combat techniques.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Mechanics:
1. Soldier class profession. That is, heavy armor.

[…]

- Challenger
- Fighter
- Combatant
- Chainer, etc.

And it could use new specific weapon: chain (+pistol)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPg0UMiMoTE
WHIP IT anyone?

This is an idea I’ve posted a year ago on the french forums, I never had the patience to translate it here. So my idea was basically to have a “cultural class”.

This doesn’t mean 5 classes, but same basic gameplay with different names, animations, lore, weapons and skins based on the race you chose. I’ll give a short example to explain the idea.

Norn: Shaman
Human: Dervish
Sylvari: Druid
Charr: Machinist
Asura: Golemancer

5 classes, same basic gameplay, adapted to each race.

Shaman:
Possibility to change between human form and 2 of 6 other forms (half-norn, half-animal, like seen in some very old artworks) by using the F1, F2 and F3 buttons.

The half-norn, half-animal transformation, keep part of your visible armor. Weapons stay in your hands.
The weapon skills are adapted to the chosen form.

The forms could be the ones we already have (but with armor on them) plus boar (also seen on some old artwork) and something else like eagle, or deer.

Weapons (no weapon switch):
Axe
Mace (main/off)
Dagger (main/off)
Staff
Longbow
Trident
Scythe (new weapon)

Dervish:
Possibility to change between human form and 2 of 6 other forms (half-human, half-avatar) by using the F1, F2 and F3 buttons.

The half-human, half-avatar transformation, keep part of your visible armor. Weapons stay in your hands.
The weapon skills are adapted to the chosen form.

The forms could be the ones of the 6 human god (baltha, kormir, lyssa, melandru, grenth, dwayna)

Weapons:
Greatsword
Dagger
Pistols(main/off)
Torches (main/off)
Lance
Scythe (new weapon)

Druid:
Possibility to change between sylvari form and 2 of 6 other forms by using the F1, F2 and F3 buttons.

The forms keep part of the visible armor, weapons stay equipped (visible).
The weapon skills are adapted to the chosen form.

Forms could be druids (the big living trees we have ingame) of different seasons and forms like the Husks.

Weapons:
Mace (main/off)
Scepter (main/off)
Torch
Staff
Short Bow
Trident
Warhorn

Machinist:
Possibility to change between charr form and 2 of 6 other forms by using the F1, F2 and F3 buttons.

You see your charr on the vehicles you “transformed” in.
The weapon skills are adapted to the chosen form.

The forms could be the war machines of the charr, like little tanks, exoskeletons or other specific vehicles (like the char bikes seen in the Citadel).

Weapons:
Hammer
Rifle
Pistol
Mace (main/off)
Torch (main/off)
Harpoon Gun

Golemancer:
Possibility to change between asura form and 2 of 6 other forms by using the F1, F2 and F3 buttons.

You see your asura on the golems you “transformed” in.
The weapon skills are adapted to the chosen form.

Weapons:
Stuff
Scepter (main/off)
Focus
Mace (main/off)
Rifle
Pistol
Trident

That’s it for the basic idea. Didn’t develop much into traits, or utilities for now.

This enables us to have classes respecting their lore (It would be weird to see dervish charr summoning melandru… )

Definitely a heavy class so we have 3/3/3. I think that’s just ideal. The rest of the details I don’t care much for, but I think something that has shapeshifting powers would be really, really cool.

A heavy Dervish. With the silence of the six gods, the defensive power of the Dervish has weakened, requiring heavier armor for the once holy warriors.

Maybe a Golemancer/Chronomancer/Lancer Hybrid crazye and wacky and might just work.

Dragonborn!

eh? eeeeh? c’mon! you know you want it!

I think a shape-shifter would be a very fun and versatile profession. They would be able to shape shift into different creatures, that have there own set of skills and specially abilities. Kinda like the Dervish Elite Avatar Forms.

This would be good because you could remain in that shape until either the time runs out (like 10mins to an hour), death, or you wish to change back. (Or you could have a similar system to the Norn Animal Spirit skills in guild wars 1, and you change back when you run out of energy). Though I don’t see the issue with the form being strictly a “When you Wish to turn back” kind of thing making it solely based around your beast forms.

The main forms should either follow the spirits of the wild, making any who use this specialization/class devotes of those spirits. We see people from all of the races learning and following the animal spirits just as the norn do, so it’s not too far-fetched. Bear/warg? should be a tankish/raw damage sort of form, as we could have snow leopard/raven for bleeds and condi damage. Wolf could be a raw dps with tons of burst, each form offering unique utilities while in that form.

Now the biggest Idea here is a Dragon form? Why, well because of Glints baby and it being born untainted into the natural cycle, sort of following in gilts footsteps.So It’s not too far fetched to have us turn into a wyvern/Dragon since we have both as actual inhabitants of tyria’s surface. This could offer Arena-net that “We don’t want to be like any other mmorpg” sort of feel too a pre-existing fantasy profession.

The Trait Lines could be as follows If it were its own class.

Shape-shifting- Increases the power of and the length of each form. Most forms dedicated to this attribute.

Ancestral Grace- Increases length and power of enchants that buff forms/player. enchantment skills that buff player dedicated to this attribute.

Ferocity- Increases Damage output of each form AND your weapon. Some- more damage orientated forms- could be dedicated to this attribute

Instincts- (PRIMARY) Increases Energy and Health a little, and gives you a bit of a health regen boost for 6 seconds, +3 seconds per rank in Survivability, when a form ends. Some forms, like healing or buffing ones, could be dedicated to this attribute.

Alpha- Increases forms chance to gain health or energy when they hit a target (like critical strikes but for health/energy instead of extra damage). Skills and shouts that buff player are dedicated to this attribute.

If it became a simple elite spec, you could have simply shape-shifting and make the spec involve all that is listed above. Either way it still works and will bring those shapeshifter players from all over, with your combat engine and beautiful world paired with the ability to become beasts of power? Who needs anything else, Shape-shifting is what kept me in WoW as long as I was there because to me the idea of being a big creature is freaking awesome. I know im going to get those “Ew no don’t do it, please thats just dumb” People in here. But I know you have players who would really enjoy this spec, not every spec/class is for everyone but to add this would appeal to a spectrum you have yet to give anything toward. To make up for the norns lacking Lycanthropic forms, which are pretty much useless in-game this would be a good alternative. It also would be for ALL races meaning each races forms may look different, giving shapeshifters a feeling of “dude look at me, My charr bear/dragon looks amazing!! Holy kitten look at that norn shape-shifter, they look so cool.”
If you do go for the route of each race having their forms look different, I suggest asurans get Bob-cats for their bleeds. And maybe either baby wyverns/dragons, Or a wolverine for their bear like shape. (( wolverines are notorious for bringing down prey four times their size, just throwing that out there.))

That’s some impressive necro skills, especially considering that we even got a 9th profession in the meantime…

I would actually sell my soul to Dhuum for the Dervish to return in Gw2….

Feel as though the devs need to re-look at this thread.

I thought this was a necro thread but the first new post is exactly one that was posted in its own thread earlier today. Did a mod merge with the wrong one?

I thought I slipped backward in time for a few minutes, since we have 9 professions already.

Take back the Revenant and give us the REAL Soul Twisters.