Guild Wars 2

Hey there everyone, I’m a tabletop card/board game designer/producer who tackles video game design problems as a hobby (and for the experience!)
Today’s focus is on the Dungeon system, namely a new type of dungeon experience that many feel is lacking from the game…A true dungeon crawl!

Labyrinth of the Mists
A new kind of Fractal

Labyrinth of the Mists would be a new addition to Dessa’s Lab, giving players a chance to go on an old-school dungeon crawl.

What’s the same
Like the Fractals, the dungeon has a Fractal Level, determining similar values.
Like the Fractals, you can choose to bail after each “level”
Like the Fractals, the highest starting level is determined by the least progressed player.
Like the Fractals, there is a boss at the end of each level with a chest.

What’s different
The Labyrinth is setup in “Floors”, each granting an increase to difficulty and Magic Find. This would scale VERY slowly (1% per level)
The Labyrinth is isolated from the rest of Tyria. You can’t deposit from the inventory, access the trading post, or even find an anvil/vendor.

What’s SPECIAL
Chests have a chance of dropping Repair Canisters and Vendors, giving you a chance to refresh your armor and sell anything you aren’t saving for the final haul.
Harvesting Nodes can spawn in the Labyrinth.
The Labyrinth makes use of surprise attacks and traps that aren’t just “dodge the red circle”

Example Labyrinth Floors:

CM Tileset:
• Special mobs include turret ambushes and stealthed separatist patrols.

AC Tileset:
• Special mobs include Graveling Mounds and the infamous wall-troll.

What’s the point?

Well, the idea here is to provide an experience that appeals to farmers (Get the MF high enough and you start getting some NICE rewards), explorers (The zones are randomized, so there is always a surprise waiting), and thrill-seekers (How deep you can you go on limited supplies?)

Feel free to tear into this idea, as it’s NOT a balanced product.

Awesome, I would really like that feature implemented in the game !

Sounds like some of the fun all night dungeon delves one might find at at a PnP RPG convention.

Very cool.

I’ve suggested this before, using procedural generation to create an infinite dungeon – this would, at bare minimum, keep a lot of hungry players hanging on between content patches.

You should always be able to begin from the last level begun (Waypoints at the entrance to each level?)

ipan.4356:

You should always be able to begin from the last level begun (Waypoints at the entrance to each level?)

The MF bonus for survival would have to reset then. The limited inventory and lack of vendors is there to prevent a huge influx of items/gold, in favor of people having a huge amount of chances to get those oh-so-sought after exotics and ascendeds.

Clarification: The better prepared a group is when they enter (salvage kits, tools, etc), the more compressed they can get their loot, bringing more value back.

This idea is gloriously wonderful!!

I wish they’d make it and put it in the game.

Why not just ask for it to be incorporated into fractals? Creating a parallel event for a relatively small number of people maybe is not cost effective.

Yargesh.4965:

Why not just ask for it to be incorporated into fractals? Creating a parallel event for a relatively small number of people maybe is not cost effective.

Because fractals use a very different balance system for loot and gameplay, closer to a traditional GW2 dungeon than the Labyrinth’s survival system. I envisioned this as something within Dessa’s Lab, as a type of Fractal instance, but not in the fractal rotation.

I’d also like to take a moment to clarify that the loot drops would consistently increase in QUALITY, while the limited inventory mechanic keeps the QUANTITY down. A long Labyrinth run could end up with a person out of salvage kits, out of gathering tools, and holding stacks of salvaged materials (in an attempt to condense the trash loot) and only the very best drops. This also gives a use to those fancy unlimited use kits (and makes the silver-fed kit almost worth it!) beyond overpaying for a minor convenience.

In my mind, I see 6+ hour labyrinth runs replacing some of the normal dungeon circuits. Not because of the gold value (it’d probably be lower), but because of the better QUALITY of drops (which feels better and helps progress personal goals such as collections)

I can only dream that a dedicated guild out there somewhere will try to pull a 24-48 hour Labyrinth delve, attempting to fill their inventory with exotic drops after going hundreds deep for the massive MF bonus.

My feeling is that there is a fixed number of people in any game who will do dungeons. Now people need to do regular dungeons for specific items (armour, weapons, legendary recipe items etc) most doing high fractals do so because they want to but the numbers are a tiny fraction of total game players. You add an alternate system targeted at that same tiny percentage you only dilute what is in game.

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

Kasima.8143:

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

what they could do, is have waiting areas, say at the beginning of the level, you can choose to leave the game via waiting area.
At waiting areas you can also recruit new players.

People would essentially create charachters solely for this mode.

Now, the tricky part here, is how do you fail this dungeon? is it only when you choose to leave? I suggest you give players ways of getting continues/lives, or you make it so that if all your gear breaks, you get kicked out.

I would probably make some special endless dungeon only skills/weapons you can get only in this dungeon. As well, some side paths/events that may like unlock a vendor. (protect Merchant billy from the troll!) success unlocks a merchant.

It seems like it could be a pretty fun, highly repeatable content. How does it scale in difficulty? or does it scale?

Kasima.8143:

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

I agree with this.

Kasima.8143:

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

I think the opposite would be more interesting.

Make it an Iron Man/Marathon style dungeon where there is no saving your place. If you leave, you have to start over. If you want the really nice or exotic loot then run the dungeon for 5-6 hours straight. Make it so the longer you keep playing the higher the chance of getting exotic drops to the point where if you can keep playing for 12 hours then you might actually have a 5% chance at exotics per drop instead of the .000001% chance it normally is.

It may be a hardship to try a marathon like that, but if the rewards are worth it, people will do it.

Torsailr.8456:

Kasima.8143:

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

I think the opposite would be more interesting.

Make it an Iron Man/Marathon style dungeon where there is no saving your place. If you leave, you have to start over. If you want the really nice or exotic loot then run the dungeon for 5-6 hours straight. Make it so the longer you keep playing the higher the chance of getting exotic drops to the point where if you can keep playing for 12 hours then you might actually have a 5% chance at exotics per drop instead of the .000001% chance it normally is.

It may be a hardship to try a marathon like that, but if the rewards are worth it, people will do it.

but i dont really think its worth it to do it that way, also how will that work for disconnects and other such things? The iron man part is you only have what you come in with and your resources are dwindling, you can leave at any time, but then you have to start over.

Disconnects would be a risk just like any other dungeon.

If you can save and return it kind of feels like regular fractals with a different reward structure. In which case, why not just adjust fractals? By making it a marathon then it creates a new form of challenge and a slightly different game mode.

Torsailr.8456:

Disconnects would be a risk just like any other dungeon.

If you can save and return it kind of feels like regular fractals with a different reward structure. In which case, why not just adjust fractals? By making it a marathon then it creates a new form of challenge and a slightly different game mode.

he didnt say save and return, he said log out there.
Essentially your charachter would be trapped there until you leave, unable to use any sort of inventory/salvage/repair management aside from what you get in the dungeon. They cant get anything sent to them, and they cant get sent out.

So its not like saving your progress, doing something and coming back, its more like putting your game on pause for

my guess is people would dedicate a charachter slot to it, however, in order to get the big drops, they would have to put in the time, and eventually to ever make use of anything they have in there, they would have to leave.

phys.7689:

Torsailr.8456:

Disconnects would be a risk just like any other dungeon.

If you can save and return it kind of feels like regular fractals with a different reward structure. In which case, why not just adjust fractals? By making it a marathon then it creates a new form of challenge and a slightly different game mode.

he didnt say save and return, he said log out there.
Essentially your charachter would be trapped there until you leave, unable to use any sort of inventory/salvage/repair management aside from what you get in the dungeon. They cant get anything sent to them, and they cant get sent out.

So its not like saving your progress, doing something and coming back, its more like putting your game on pause for

my guess is people would dedicate a charachter slot to it, however, in order to get the big drops, they would have to put in the time, and eventually to ever make use of anything they have in there, they would have to leave.

Hmm, you’re right. I just interpreted it differently when I read it.

That raises the question, is this a solo dungeon or group? That would be ok for a solo dungeon but there would be issues with group runs. I could easily see people trading out spots to keep advancing further up the dungeon then coming back later for better rewards without the effort to attain them.

I think this might make for an incredibly challenging solo dungeon. Just you and the mobs and how far you can make it with your skills.

Sounds almost like what Fractals tried to be – what it was said it was going to be, but without (if hope) the artificial ‘difficulty’ increase (Agony).

And very similar to the GW1 challenge missions except said challenge missions had a single difficulty (two if including the game-wide Hard Mode) and always restarted from the beginning on failure, but eternally progressed in higher difficulty.

I’d enjoy a return of the challenge missions concept so long as the reward is adequate, which the gw1 setup lacked.

Torsailr.8456:

phys.7689:

Torsailr.8456:

Disconnects would be a risk just like any other dungeon.

If you can save and return it kind of feels like regular fractals with a different reward structure. In which case, why not just adjust fractals? By making it a marathon then it creates a new form of challenge and a slightly different game mode.

he didnt say save and return, he said log out there.
Essentially your charachter would be trapped there until you leave, unable to use any sort of inventory/salvage/repair management aside from what you get in the dungeon. They cant get anything sent to them, and they cant get sent out.

So its not like saving your progress, doing something and coming back, its more like putting your game on pause for

my guess is people would dedicate a charachter slot to it, however, in order to get the big drops, they would have to put in the time, and eventually to ever make use of anything they have in there, they would have to leave.

Hmm, you’re right. I just interpreted it differently when I read it.

That raises the question, is this a solo dungeon or group? That would be ok for a solo dungeon but there would be issues with group runs. I could easily see people trading out spots to keep advancing further up the dungeon then coming back later for better rewards without the effort to attain them.

I think this might make for an incredibly challenging solo dungeon. Just you and the mobs and how far you can make it with your skills.

i think it could be solo or group, with group you could wait at checkpoint areas for people to join, or invite friends who are at same level. (group of friends would probably stop at the same level)
might be interesting as a solo activity, but gw2 devs dont like to encourage solo instanced activity.

If it is team based though, they could design some team based mechanics, like having to split up sometimes and what not. anyhow its all brainstorming that will probably be ignored, but a fun excerisize none the less

phys.7689:

Anyhow its all brainstorming that will probably be ignored, but a fun exercise none the less

The Dev’s DO read the forums, but they can’t respond to everything. Even hinting that they are interested in this brings a certain amount of expectation.

As a thought exercise though…yeah. It’s good to keep the gears turning in the community instead of it turning into a “kitten about the current state of things” echo chamber ;-)

This is a great idea. I’d probably make an effort to make friends in-game and run something like this all the time. Just to see how far I’d get, not for loot so much.

Anything like this would have to have some sort of time limit involved. I can’t imagine anyone would be happy with the headline “Two die during 36 hour game session”. It has happened.

I just got to the solo part of the thread. I’d support that since it would save me going to the previously mentioned effort. Solo to a full group with appropriate scaling.

This! This is something very interesting. We should build ideas around this. This could very well be the challenging content people are asking for.
This thread definitely needs some Dev. Love.

It’s a really nice idea but it is the players that will cause the problems. As soon as some people in a group want to bail out and some want to stay in then there are going to be unhappy players. Unhappy players every run.

The game design should allow players with restricted time to manage that time carefully. If someone can manage an hours worth of time they can do something productive for that hour and log off satisfied. Endless dungeons really exclude that sort of player and only rewards those people who stay online for hours on end.

Stooperdale.3560:

It’s a really nice idea but it is the players that will cause the problems. As soon as some people in a group want to bail out and some want to stay in then there are going to be unhappy players. Unhappy players every run.

The game design should allow players with restricted time to manage that time carefully. If someone can manage an hours worth of time they can do something productive for that hour and log off satisfied. Endless dungeons really exclude that sort of player and only rewards those people who stay online for hours on end.

this is why some suggested being able to log off in the dungeon, and i suggested at certain points you could stop, log off, or pick up new players in the same level. You couldnt leave with that charachter though, just essentially pause the progress, or regroup.

Stooperdale.3560:

It’s a really nice idea but it is the players that will cause the problems. As soon as some people in a group want to bail out and some want to stay in then there are going to be unhappy players. Unhappy players every run.

The game design should allow players with restricted time to manage that time carefully. If someone can manage an hours worth of time they can do something productive for that hour and log off satisfied. Endless dungeons really exclude that sort of player and only rewards those people who stay online for hours on end.

To put it bluntly, not every aspect of the game should be there for everyone. The key isn’t in making everything open to everyone but in making something for everyone. It kinda sucks, but it’s true. If you only have an hour to spend then you can either enjoy something like this for an hour or on something else you enjoy in the game.

I like this suggestion.

It sounds like a few Indie games I am playing on steam right at the moment

First when I read the store bought stuff was to drop in the dungeon I was ‘Nah that wont work’ but after I read that true statement how usefull they will be to traverse further in the dungeon it actually sounds like Anet can make an extra buck or two after a while. As for me I have been saving them since I started playing on head start so I got over 60-70 of each :P Would be nice to finally find some use for them

This is something I realy hope for

phys.7689:

If it is team based though, they could design some team based mechanics, like having to split up sometimes and what not. anyhow its all brainstorming that will probably be ignored, but a fun excerisize none the less

Maybe the solution for group content is scaling for solo players.

If you create the dungeon for 5 players and let it scale to 1 player then you will also be able to scale it for 2/3/4 players. I’m sure Anet already has algorithms in place to do this for LS instances.

If you start with 5 players and someone needs to drop, then have the dungeon automatically scale down for 4 players and disable the option to have more people join. When the next person drops, scale to 3 players then 2 players, etc.

If the person WP out then next time he starts over from the start. If he logged/dc’d then when he restarts he starts where he left off but in a new solo instance.

This would allow for logging to sleep/work/watch kitten videos on youtube without resetting and would prevent the issue of people trading out spots just to get to higher levels of loot drops without the effort put in. You get levels of group play and your party isn’t screwed if you have to leave.

The down side is if you only like group play when you log, you won’t have a group when you log back in. Maybe if there was a way to save a party at a checkpoint and you couldn’t progress past unless all were present? If you try then the entire party is reset?

Or both, at a checkpoint you have the option of saving a party or continuing without a party save in which case the descaling based on party size takes effect. At each checkpoint you’re given an option to change modes.

+1 for the idea!

and +1000 for the “save mode/option” suggestion!

Fractals cry for something fresh in a long time now. Pluse better rewards. Thx

phys.7689:

Stooperdale.3560:

It’s a really nice idea but it is the players that will cause the problems. As soon as some people in a group want to bail out and some want to stay in then there are going to be unhappy players. Unhappy players every run.

The game design should allow players with restricted time to manage that time carefully. If someone can manage an hours worth of time they can do something productive for that hour and log off satisfied. Endless dungeons really exclude that sort of player and only rewards those people who stay online for hours on end.

this is why some suggested being able to log off in the dungeon, and i suggested at certain points you could stop, log off, or pick up new players in the same level. You couldnt leave with that charachter though, just essentially pause the progress, or regroup.

As long as the elements of scarcity remain (limited inventory space, repairs, vendoring, etc), then logging off should work fine. In fact, this system would even be able to support “lobbies” at the end of each floor, where players that need to leave can be replaced by players who are in that lobby. Hotjoin is a possibility as well, where anyone on your floor can request to join your party.

While I do think that this idea is intriguing, how would the game go about properly randomly generating each dungeon floor? For this system to truly work, each experience needs to be at least somewhat different than the previous time. While Fractals is still randomized, Grawl Fractal is still Grawl Fractal. It would be interesting to know how it could be properly generated on the fly..

What about consumables like bank access or black lion merchant summons?

While Fractals doesn’t have a repair anvil inside, players have circumvented that by logging out, repairing in Lion’s Arch, and then joining the rest of their party in the instance. How would you handle such an issue, and how would that penalize people who temporarilly drop due to connection issues?

I really like the idea!
Would be great to give it a solo and a group option.
Maybe some bossfights in the style of queens gauntlet.
The higher you get the harder they will be.

+1000 good sir

Since I saw the tower of nightmare I really felt that it would be nice to have such a dungeon. It reminds me of the endless randomized dungeons similar to Tartarus (in persona 3).

While I do think that this idea is intriguing, how would the game go about properly randomly generating each dungeon floor?

each floor could have a randomized layout

Torsailr.8456:

Kasima.8143:

I’d like to add a suggestion to your suggestion : To make it possible to log off and log back in the same instance, without losing your progress. This way, we could have dungeons that last for days and weeks. It would be awesome!

… because I don’t think that the best loot should be reserved to those who can go over 24 hours without sleeping.

I think the opposite would be more interesting.

Make it an Iron Man/Marathon style dungeon where there is no saving your place. If you leave, you have to start over. If you want the really nice or exotic loot then run the dungeon for 5-6 hours straight. Make it so the longer you keep playing the higher the chance of getting exotic drops to the point where if you can keep playing for 12 hours then you might actually have a 5% chance at exotics per drop instead of the .000001% chance it normally is.

It may be a hardship to try a marathon like that, but if the rewards are worth it, people will do it.

well, congrats. You just proposed a game I cannot play. (neither me nor all the people who has a job and a life outside this videogame). I mean, seriously… 6 hours? So you come out with those great rewards that certify you played a single dungeon for six straight hours? whooo hoooO!

I’m okay with this.

Togashi Jack.9531:

What about consumables like bank access or black lion merchant summons?

ANet can enable/disable them according to whatever modicum of balance they want to enforce for the dungeon. If they want them included, but don’t want them to circumvent the entire scarcity system, they can use them as tokens to buy “Mist-Attuned” versions of the same consumable, at a steep ratio (something like 5 repair canisters to get a single mist-attuned canister)

While Fractals doesn’t have a repair anvil inside, players have circumvented that by logging out, repairing in Lion’s Arch, and then joining the rest of their party in the instance.

Togashi Jack.9531:

how would that penalize people who temporarilly drop due to connection issues?

Logging out or disconnecting while within the Labyrinth would simply make you disappear until logging back in. If the group moves on without you, you are moved to the previous floor lobby (only losing the progress of that floor). At no time does your character get to go anywhere outside the Labyrinth without losing the accumulated progress.

well, congrats. You just proposed a game I cannot play. (neither me nor all the people who has a job and a life outside this videogame). I mean, seriously… 6 hours? So you come out with those great rewards that certify you played a single dungeon for six straight hours? whooo hoooO!

This was addressed shortly after the first post. Your progress within the Labyrinth is saved at each floor, but cleared if you leave the labyrinth (not DC, actually leave). This means you can play in as short a timeframe as you like, while still going on a crazy adventure.

Togashi Jack.9531:

While I do think that this idea is intriguing, how would the game go about properly randomly generating each dungeon floor? For this system to truly work, each experience needs to be at least somewhat different than the previous time. While Fractals is still randomized, Grawl Fractal is still Grawl Fractal. It would be interesting to know how it could be properly generated on the fly..

What about consumables like bank access or black lion merchant summons?

While Fractals doesn’t have a repair anvil inside, players have circumvented that by logging out, repairing in Lion’s Arch, and then joining the rest of their party in the instance. How would you handle such an issue, and how would that penalize people who temporarilly drop due to connection issues?

For it to really be different each level it would need to be some for of procedurally generated content.

Or they could create a few dozen more fractals to include in the rotation. The more options you have the less likely you are to get a lot of repetition in a play through.

Diablo 3 had a pseudo randomly generated map system. Each map was broken into sections and each section was randomly selected from a bank of options. The problem was the number of options wasn’t that high and the placement of the sections wasn’t really randomized. It worked up to a point but it had some fairly serious design flaws.

Anet could do something similar where a dungeon path is broken into 10 sections and each section is randomly selected from a bank of 40. If you have 4-5 dungeon paths you’d likely have a fair amount of change to alleviate repetition but after a while you’d still notice that elements are repeating.

Cool idea, I think the endurance aspect would satisfy a desire for more challenge and reward.