Guild Wars 2

I agree with your post, pretty much every part of it.

I must say, however, the gear is too easy to attain and not needed enough in my opinion. I have more than enough gold to get everything I want and need but have no incentive to do so because it would hardly boost my performance.

I agreed, I for once cherish big number and would like also critical healing. Other than time constrains on the personal level and the lack of rewards outside farming or tp flipping I would say this game is pretty solid.

+1’ed you

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

You wanted more numbers? You got:
Ascended gear.

Well, the game’s out a year and we got a few time gated trinkets. That does not make a full set of gear yet. So for the people who want gear progression it’s too little too late if you ask me. It certainly was for me.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

You wanted to remove gear grind? You got:
Time Gated Crafting, ensuring that the vast majority of players can easily keep up.
Long periods between gear releases, ensuring that even the most casual player can have the gear with minimal effort.
Farming Events Where the casual player can join in the living story to get enough materials to cover just about anything

There is still gear grind. Just because it looks different doesn’t make it a good thing.

Time gating is crap. It’s completely artificial and all it does is slow people down who have more time to play. A known side effect are the people who log in just to do their daily and log out again. Wonderful idea.

Farming events yes. You know the solution to grind is not introducing grind and then make it dead easy to do so. That gets old real fast.

Oh and I leveled a toon to 80 in a couple of weeks and had enough karma and gold to instantly fully equip my character in exotic gear top to bottom, with the addition of an ascended amulet. On the same day I turned 80 I could afford this. No need to do anything, it was already done before turning 80.

It’s so kitten easy it makes it pointless. I quit because I was done. I finished my toon. I didn’t have a reason for any dungeons because none of the heavy armour options for dungeon gear is appealing to me….so there it was. I was all done. I thought of leveling an alt but couldn’t be bothered. Already had 40 gold spare and over 100k karma and my alt is level 11….I mean c’mon.

It’s so easy it’s become completely pointless.

That’s not a good thing in my book.

Vocah.1208:

I agree with your post, pretty much every part of it.

I must say, however, the gear is too easy to attain and not needed enough in my opinion. I have more than enough gold to get everything I want and need but have no incentive to do so because it would hardly boost my performance.

I find that performance in GW2 is drastically more dependent on personal skill than numbers. While leveling my elementalist, I was regularly fighting veterans 5+ levels higher than me while wearing hodgepodge gear I picked up. The game just doesn’t reward stat bonuses as heavily due to the active playstyle of the game. It’s much closer to Devil May Cry: MMO Edition than a rotation or numbers based game.

My suggestion to you is to find a legendary you REALLY like, number crunch the hell out a customized build for you to use it, and enjoy the maxed stats for life while playing your own personalized combat style.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Vocah.1208:

I agree with your post, pretty much every part of it.

I must say, however, the gear is too easy to attain and not needed enough in my opinion. I have more than enough gold to get everything I want and need but have no incentive to do so because it would hardly boost my performance.

I find that performance in GW2 is drastically more dependent on personal skill than numbers. While leveling my elementalist, I was regularly fighting veterans 5+ levels higher than me while wearing hodgepodge gear I picked up. The game just doesn’t reward stat bonuses as heavily due to the active playstyle of the game. It’s much closer to Devil May Cry: MMO Edition than a rotation or numbers based game.

My suggestion to you is to find a legendary you REALLY like, number crunch the hell out a customized build for you to use it, and enjoy the maxed stats for life while playing your own personalized combat style.

True, but when it comes to sPvP, it’s mostly spamming with no skill involved until you’re in an organized team or going against such a team.

I’m still waiting for them to release a legendary I really like, I have the image of the perfect armor in my head but it’s not possible with the current items available in game. Another problem is that people like me who run one character and focus everything into it soon find themselves short of INTERESTING stuff to do. You can always do something, true; but to those who like PvP, PvE won’t suffice once they’re bored of it. For the PvErs, the current PvP/WvW system doesn’t have the appeal, so what to do when you’re 100% map completion and maxed stats with the gear you want?

Gehenna.3625:

Well, the game’s out a year and we got a few time gated trinkets. That does not make a full set of gear yet. So for the people who want gear progression it’s too little too late if you ask me. It certainly was for me.

I’d much prefer a careful development team who gets it done eventually over one who screws it up permanently by rushing it. What would you have done differently that would have allowed gear progression while still satisfying people who dislike grind, other than the aforementioned clearer communication?

Gehenna.3625:

There is still gear grind. Just because it looks different doesn’t make it a good thing.

If you believe that there is gear grind, please define it for the purposes of the discussion. I see vertical progression, and the legendary stuff (which I admit is rather grindy, but is being corrected in the form of precursor quests and such)

Gehenna.3625:

Time gating is crap. It’s completely artificial and all it does is slow people down who have more time to play. A known side effect are the people who log in just to do their daily and log out again. Wonderful idea.

Time Gating is a design tool. How it is used determines its value in a given game.
Isn’t the hourly timer for an invasion Time Gating, since they could have them all going on all maps all the time if they wanted to. Are cutscenes Time Gating, since many are unskippable and slow you down? The only thing that makes it artificial is the lack of ingame reasoning for it.

Slowing down those who have more time to play is the purpose of it, as it means that those who dislike the gear treadmill can go at their own pace and not get left behind. The community as a whole has to either agree on a set progression schedule (impossible, as everyone has differing opinions on it), or the designers have to enforce one that alienates as few players as possible.

As for the daily argument…I do that myself quite often, and I feel quite comfortable with it. Sometimes I just don’t feel like playing GW2, but I do feel like getting that bite-sized portion of achievement that comes from the daily.

Gehenna.3625:

Farming events yes. You know the solution to grind is not introducing grind and then make it dead easy to do so. That gets old real fast.

This turns back towards the definition of grind for you. Many players enjoy only having to do a given event once. Many players like to be rewarded for doing it many times. Those who have a purpose for massive quantities of materials and gold (legendary seekers) have myriad ways to acquire it, while those who just want to get their exotics can experience the content and be well rewarded for doing so.

Gehenna.3625:

Oh and I leveled a toon to 80 in a couple of weeks and had enough karma and gold to instantly fully equip my character in exotic gear top to bottom, with the addition of an ascended amulet. On the same day I turned 80 I could afford this. No need to do anything, it was already done before turning 80.

It’s so kitten easy it makes it pointless. I quit because I was done. I finished my toon. I didn’t have a reason for any dungeons because none of the heavy armour options for dungeon gear is appealing to me….so there it was. I was all done. I thought of leveling an alt but couldn’t be bothered. Already had 40 gold spare and over 100k karma and my alt is level 11….I mean c’mon.
It’s so easy it’s become completely pointless.

That’s not a good thing in my book.

I urge you to take a look at This article on Content Locusts .

While the article is a little inflammatory, it makes a point regarding outliers within gaming communities and the impact they have on the game industry as a whole, as well as the individual games. Your experience is very different from many others, who wish to go slower. This is why clear communication between ANet and community is essential, to try to encompass as much of the player base as possible.

Vocah.1208:

True, but when it comes to sPvP, it’s mostly spamming with no skill involved until you’re in an organized team or going against such a team.

I disagree here. Any player CAN theoretically make a build and throw their numbers at someone else until they fall down, but this is a very small part of the combat system. Take the classic Hundred Blades warrior for example. It takes exactly two buttons to invalidate such a build (Stunbreak+Dodge), meaning all the spamming in the world fails to a little skill. GW2, much like it’s predecessor, is based around using skills at opportune times to achieve maximum impact.
(I’d also like to preemptively kill the argument that the hundred blades warrior could have just used his combo at a better time, because that’s a skill that the player must have learned at some point, and the moment that the other player found a counter for the HB spam, the arms race of player decisions has begun, meaning player skill is now a significant factor.)

Vocah.1208:

I’m still waiting for them to release a legendary I really like, I have the image of the perfect armor in my head but it’s not possible with the current items available in game. Another problem is that people like me who run one character and focus everything into it soon find themselves short of INTERESTING stuff to do. You can always do something, true; but to those who like PvP, PvE won’t suffice once they’re bored of it. For the PvErs, the current PvP/WvW system doesn’t have the appeal, so what to do when you’re 100% map completion and maxed stats with the gear you want?

It seems there is a general agreement that the content pre-living story was too slow to release. I am glad that ANet is starting to get their release schedule in order. Out of curiosity, what content do you want?

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

TL;DR: Gamers as a community have condensed legitimate game design concepts into buzzwords that trigger kneejerk reactions.

Of course this is fundamentally true, but game design concepts in their pure form have got nothing to do with gamers’ experience at all.

The average gamer generally doesn’t understand a game design concept as much as a game designer does, the same way that normal people don’t understand what an architect was trying to do with a building that they now live in for every day of their lives.

There is a gap between game design concept and user experience, and this gap is bridged by execution. In the end, it doesn’t matter if the designer has the most ideal of game design concepts, if the players do not feel accordingly or feel differently from what the game designer intended to do (hence, complaints), that means that there was a failure somewhere in the execution.

If only other game designers (like you) can see what a game is truly trying to do, that still means the game is poorly executed as a design. (As an experience though, it might not be necessarily so, because experience is personal.)

projectcedric.6951:

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

TL;DR: Gamers as a community have condensed legitimate game design concepts into buzzwords that trigger kneejerk reactions.

Of course this is fundamentally true, but game design concepts in their pure form have got nothing to do with gamers’ experience at all.

The average gamer generally doesn’t understand a game design concept as much as a game designer does, the same way that normal people don’t understand what an architect was trying to do with a building that they now live in for every day of their lives.

There is a gap between game design concept and user experience, and this gap is bridged by execution. In the end, it doesn’t matter if the designer has the most ideal of game design concepts, if the players do not feel accordingly or feel differently from what the game designer intended to do (hence, complaints), that means that there was a failure somewhere in the execution.

If only other game designers (like you) can see what a game is truly trying to do, that still means the game is poorly executed as a design. (As an experience though, it might not be necessarily so, because experience is personal.)

I believe the term for this is myopia. You can see it in certain design elements and ANet’s attitude towards those elements. DEs and the Living Story are two obvious examples. Also if the “entire game is the endgame,” why is there an insistence on treadmill-like progression that favors only certain content. Well, because intent amounts to nothing if there’s no execution to back it up.

I don’t want vertical progression, because right now, the only thing that can go up in any substantial matter is DPS. And if your DPS goes up at the same time they introduce a boss with more HP than the last tier of bosses, what’s the point?

Before they introduce vertical progression, they need to introduce more than one thing you can progress. Since they already threw out the trinity, that leaves an alternate advancement system. One with more interesting effects than, say, you get with WvW ranks.

Since we’re not getting that either, I will continue to look at crafted ascended gear as wasted effort, thank you.

(Posted all of this in another thread. Thought I’d throw it in here as well.)
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zen.6091:

Castaliea.3156:

DevonCarver.5370:

zen.6091:

I take it that since legendaries will soon be able to have stat changes out of combat, it would be possible to do this for other gear?

I don’t see that happening and the main reason is that it sets Legendaries apart. It makes them cooler, it makes them more worth trying to get if you care about stats and not just looks. I could be proven wrong at some point, but I don’t expect us to head down that road.

P.S. No.

You could set them apart by giving them changeable Sigils and Stats while just allowing changeable stats for Ascended Gear. Pigeonholing people into running X build because they have X Ascended gear in a game built around encouraging build diversity is completely counter-intuitive. I didn’t play GW to chase gear to make builds with and yet that’s all I’ve done in GW2 despite it supposedly being built around encouraging build/playstyle diversity. I know you’re not the guy to be angry at for this and I’m not so I don’t mean to be rude to you personally but it hurts when you old, favorite, game company does a complete 180 turn in their design philosophy. I’ve made way too many posts on this and it always puts me in a sour mood so I’m just going to stop with it now but I’m very disappointed with you guys as a whole. Completely lost sight of where you came from.

The only people that should be criticising ascended weapons are the WvW folks. Yes, Gw2 is about build diversity. And you can purchase multiple sets of gear for your various builds with rares and exotics. However, if you want that little extra, then you have to earn it. It it ascended gear was easy to get, and everyone got it within a short amount of time, then it would be pointless in releasing. You don’t have to get the gear right when it comes out. Think about how long it took the trinkets to get released. You’ll have plenty of time to get ascended gear. Too many people QQ’ing here are insignificant stat changes. These updates are for the people who need something to do. They’re here to give people something to work for.

This argument is “Use second best gear till you get ascended, duh…..for every build you’ll ever run, try to run, and be forced to run (skill changes).” Really? Yeah that’s awesome.

Getting full, and I mean full, ascended gear on a single character even for one set shows dedication and investment on that character. I should not have to run around with second best equipment simply because some PvE player constantly needs to get shiny stuff to obtain to keep him interested because the constantly updating world doesn’t do it for him. This game was marketed with a few key things in mind not the least of which was “Build diversity” and “Not forcing you to play”. Implementing extreme amounts of time-gated gear, never mind the fact they do make you stronger, does two things; Discourage build diversity and force you to play.

You’re quick to jump on the people who don’t like to use second rate gear yet when it comes to people who need to grind for gear as an excuse to play the game instead of enjoying the constant living world updates, WvW, and even sPvP we best all defend them right? I’m not saying remove it. I actually like the idea of a final step of armor. I’m saying let people who just want to actually enjoy the game and all of it’s future content, not thinking about gear (like how GW was and how GW2 was marketed) have their way too. Let us “finish” our characters so we can enjoy the game and let the people who want to grind for gear either grind for Legendary weapons, Alts, or even a whole other game, then they can come back to GW when they want and enjoy the new content….Exactly like how GW2 was marketed!

There’s no such thing as vertical progression. It’s an illusion.

Every time your damage goes up by +1 the monster’s health goes up by +1. In the end all you have is redundant numbers cluttering the screen.

Now that’s brilliant game design right there. Unfortunately it’s what the players want. Big pointless numbers.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Vocah.1208:

True, but when it comes to sPvP, it’s mostly spamming with no skill involved until you’re in an organized team or going against such a team.

I disagree here. Any player CAN theoretically make a build and throw their numbers at someone else until they fall down, but this is a very small part of the combat system. Take the classic Hundred Blades warrior for example. It takes exactly two buttons to invalidate such a build (Stunbreak+Dodge), meaning all the spamming in the world fails to a little skill. GW2, much like it’s predecessor, is based around using skills at opportune times to achieve maximum impact.
(I’d also like to preemptively kill the argument that the hundred blades warrior could have just used his combo at a better time, because that’s a skill that the player must have learned at some point, and the moment that the other player found a counter for the HB spam, the arms race of player decisions has begun, meaning player skill is now a significant factor.)

Vocah.1208:

I’m still waiting for them to release a legendary I really like, I have the image of the perfect armor in my head but it’s not possible with the current items available in game. Another problem is that people like me who run one character and focus everything into it soon find themselves short of INTERESTING stuff to do. You can always do something, true; but to those who like PvP, PvE won’t suffice once they’re bored of it. For the PvErs, the current PvP/WvW system doesn’t have the appeal, so what to do when you’re 100% map completion and maxed stats with the gear you want?

It seems there is a general agreement that the content pre-living story was too slow to release. I am glad that ANet is starting to get their release schedule in order. Out of curiosity, what content do you want?

This is true; but I tried being tactical and do things after thinking them through, I didn’t get too far. Then I just spammed wherever people were fighting and just followed my teammates and I did three times as good.

As for content I want; The Crystal Desert (I love playing in deserts) would be nice to explore as well as Far Shiverpeaks (I assume these will come eventually, though). I’d also like to be able to use a longbow without making another toon, be able to use the weapons I like the way I like to use them (customizable skill bar – mace/shield is tanky no matter how you look at it but setting skills as we want would actually make every weapon fun and viable, not to mention they wouldn’t grow boring nearly as fast), be able to wield a legendary that isn’t a greatsword and say ‘’woah, the effects make me look awesome’’ and last and most importantly to me: be able to join a small sized 30-100 player map (on each side) with a big boss in the middle to just wage war, aka, big team deathmatch style without having to pick stuff up.

WvW doesn’t provide that, any ‘’zerg fighting’’ lasts for two minutes then you’re back in your tower, hiding. Why not introduce a brand new style of PvP where combat is TRULY fast paced and intense?

This is kinda off-topic, though. The truth of the matter, as with my first reply, is that there is absolutely no goal to work towards that would matter at all. I might have a shiny star next to my name but will I see it? I might have a legendary but so will most others. What sets me apart from the new player besides some experience, skill and better understanding of game mechanics? The answer isn’t necessarily overpowered gear (not that I mind Ascended, I probably won’t be able to get it anyhow).

I just want to say I do one event a day (usually no more than two) i am not seeing 20 gold a week?

I have found different maps give different amounts, e.g. Gendarren – Good Lunars Pass – Bad.
I seem to only get Blue and Green bags mostly with Guardian Ranged (why who knows).. and that is if i even make it to the Areas in time before they disappear via Way points and running.. I get about 2-3g an event.. since the nerfs..

Not everyone asked for More Numbers and Treadmill game play, i was happy with Guildwars 2 when it opened, not as much as Guildwars 1 but i still enjoyed it more than today’s version..

I never wanted FotM or Ascended.. yes i’m one player but i’m not alone in these complaints..

There’s no such thing as vertical progression. It’s an illusion.

Every time your damage goes up by +1 the monster’s health goes up by +1. In the end all you have is redundant numbers cluttering the screen.

Now that’s brilliant game design right there. Unfortunately it’s what the players want. Big pointless numbers.

Some players not all…

@OP
-What you’re describing about gear progression is the need to cater to a mythical demographic that every other MMO attempts and often fails catering to. I don’t see how the needs of a hypothetical playerbase can be more important than the one the game was initially marketed to.

-Furthermore, one of the more common arguments about Guild Wars 2 was that there was no endgame, not necessarily that there was no gear progression (although *some did argue for that). Gear progression is only type of endgame, an unimaginative and harmful one at that.

-If time the progression is so minimal, why is it necessary to gate it in order let others keep pace? Won’t the gating harm players who can only play sporadically? Here’s a theory: players, or rather their needs, aren’t necessarily the concern. The concern is to keep the playerbase as high as possible in the vein of attaining impressive metrics. Now before you say players are the content and that an MMO needs to have a large playerbase, how can players be the content when the level of interaction between players boils down to a very shallow zerging meta? Is only the idea that there are others playing enough to justify it?

-ANet really does need to step it up with how they handle their forums, specifically with the fact that they complain about the vocal minority without actually doing anything to help these players contribute to a useful capacity. They could learn a thing or two from LoL developers. Silence and lack of transparency can (and did) lead to contempt. Isn’t it true that we’re all gamers in the end? At least show that level of respect to your fellow gamers.

projectcedric.6951:

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

TL;DR: Gamers as a community have condensed legitimate game design concepts into buzzwords that trigger kneejerk reactions.

Of course this is fundamentally true, but game design concepts in their pure form have got nothing to do with gamers’ experience at all.

The average gamer generally doesn’t understand a game design concept as much as a game designer does, the same way that normal people don’t understand what an architect was trying to do with a building that they now live in for every day of their lives.

There is a gap between game design concept and user experience, and this gap is bridged by execution. In the end, it doesn’t matter if the designer has the most ideal of game design concepts, if the players do not feel accordingly or feel differently from what the game designer intended to do (hence, complaints), that means that there was a failure somewhere in the execution.

If only other game designers (like you) can see what a game is truly trying to do, that still means the game is poorly executed as a design. (As an experience though, it might not be necessarily so, because experience is personal.)

Now if we assume that game designers are gamers themselves then their design decisions would most likely reflect what they would like to see in a game. The average gamer is comprised of many groups of people, each with their own preferences.

Complaints occur when a game design decision upsets one group of players. The design fails to meet their needs or that it actually goes against what they feel the game should be. This occurs despite another group or groups actually liking this particular design decision.

While it is unfortunate that game designers have a tendency to lean towards one side or another, a good game designer would try to be as objective as possible in making design decisions. Rather than catering to one group of players or to as large of a portion of the player base as possible, a good game designer would go with what they feel is best for the game.

We know that in the past really good games have been created with minimal to no feedback from players. We know that players are often narrow minded and can only see issues that affect themselves. We also know that while incorporating player feedback can greatly improve a game, doing so carries the risk of making a game worse. The champion farming is an incredibly good example of this phenomenon in action. I’m not saying that ArenaNet should never have listened to complaints about champions having poor loot. I just think they, under enormous pressure from players and acting without making careful considerations, made a knee jerk reaction and made the loot a bit too good.

My concerns are as follows:

• Ascended gear takes a ludicrous amount of time if you are gearing several alts; this may not be an issue for some people (who don’t care for the stat increase, or who mainly play one character), but GW2 was a great game for those who like to get the "best stats AND who like alts. Now, it’s like every other MMO out there in that regard.
• For the same reason, Ascended gear is unfriendly for folks who like having different sets of max gear to use for different builds (e.g., soldier’s for WvW, berserker for dungeons, etc.)
• GW2 endgame, through the medium of downscaling, is supposed to be the whole game. With exotics, downscaled content is quite easy and Ascended will not make this any better. In other games, stat inflation accompanies content in which those higher stats are needed. This is not so in GW2. The only content in which the gear is needed is Fractals, and the only part of it needed there is the agony infusion.
• With all of that, the only reason I can see to have Ascended gear was to appease a portion of the player-base at the cost of angering a different portion. I see it as a knee-jerk decision made in a panic that was not and is still not thought through.

As to your final point, re transparency: I agree that Anet could have dodged a lot of the flack from this and other decisions by being more up front about their thought processes. Also, the communications they do issue leave something to be desired — Ms. Murdock’ statement about Ascended being aimed at “some of our most dedicated fans” i.e., the people who used speed runs to get their dungeon sets, thereby bypassing a lot of the game’s content, and the misleading post about guild missions with regard to small guilds.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

There is a lot of hate being thrown around concerning the introduction of ascended gear and time gated crafting, so I feel the need to post here and clear something up for the general community.

Whatever demographic of gamer you may be in, you aren’t the only demographic being catered to.

As a supposed member of the industry please tell me it it is ok to lie to your players. Is it ok to put down your vision in over 200 blog posts on exactly what the game should be about then do the opposite? Is it ok to collect money from about half a million people then change the design of the game just to broaden the audience while not fixing your game or addressing countless issues?

Anyone in the entertainment industry knows trying to cater to everyone will result in a complete loss of your or your products identity. Yes you can try and cater to higher common denominators but you can not cater to opposites.

ANET lost any and all credibility and the game a lot of its identity with the introduction of ascended gear. There is a really good reason why many people are upset.

Here is a part of one of those blog posts that i managed to save before they took down their blog last year. It touches on many points (not just ascended gear) and after one year i can only shake my head in disbelief at it. See the full version here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Is_it_fun&oldid=667665

Is it Fun? Colin Johanson on How ArenaNet Measures Success

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Now let me pose a second question: If the success of a subscription-based MMO is measured by the number of people paying a monthly fee, how does that impact game design decisions?

The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.

When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?

If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to? It’s how we played games while growing up. I can’t tell you how many times I played Quest for Glory; the game didn’t give me 25 daily quests I needed to log in and do—I played it multiple times because it was fun!

This metric of success impacted a lot of our early content-related design decisions for Guild Wars 2. Some examples include:

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

And no they will not respond. The only response we got back in november was some PR spin talk while not addressing any of the real issues. ANET are very good at that.

@OP:

I dislike ascended gear. That said, I agree with you that it is, theoretically, possible to create a system wherein vertical progression exists but is limited to such a rate that everyone who plays the game reasonably often does not fall behind the power curve. However, Anet has not succeeded in this goal.

The key aspect to a casual vertical progression would be the ability to continually progress based on tasks that the casual player will complete during a normal play cycle. IMO, laurels tied to dailies and monthlies were a good design decision in this direction. For the most part, everyone can complete the daily in a reasonable time period regardless of the specific activity they are engaged in for that session (and activities that cannot complete the daily should have been included to cover the rest of the game).

However, each of ANet’s other ascended acquisition methods relates to a specific gameplay type, where you cannot reasonably expect someone to complete it unless they are focused in that task specifically: FotM, Guild Missions, Crafting. IMO, this is bad design, because it creates the feeling that the player must engage in specific activities to chase gear instead of playing he content that each player believes is fun.

Ascended gear should never have been used as a carrot to get people to try specific content that ANet was attempting to promote.

Instead, ascended gear should be available via all playstyles. And don’t try to say that is currently the case; I don’t consider 40 laurels and 50 ectos per earring to be reasonable when you need 2 per spec per character.

It appears weapons are headed in his direction as well. Where crafting was optional before, now you will need to level 3 crafts to maintain max stat gear. Prior to last Tuesday, there was no expectation for a majority of players to complete this task.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Time Gated Crafting, ensuring that the vast majority of players can easily keep up.

Your post is perfectly agreeable, except this part.

I don’t want to be forced to go at a snails pace. If i want to put the effort or time or gold into smashing through content like a flood through New Orleans than I want the game to let me do that. Let me hold my phallus enhancing +20 sword of grinding high while others struggle. Not everyone wants to ride the care bear express to equality ville.

Achieving something at the same time as everyone else is no more of an achievement than having my hand held and crossing the street. I’m a big boy now anet, I can decide how fast I want to get something without you prescribing how much fun I should be having and when.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

To the people who will be responding to this, I’d like to ask you in advance to take a moment to think about exactly what is going on here, and exactly what you want to accomplish what your post.

This is me expressing my malcontent with a system that equalizes the impact resources like free time and gold have on the acquisition speed of rewards.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Time Gated Crafting, ensuring that the vast majority of players can easily keep up.

Your post is perfectly agreeable, except this part.

I don’t want to be forced to go at a snails pace. If i want to put the effort or time or gold into smashing through content like a flood through New Orleans than I want the game to let me do that. Let me hold my phallus enhancing +20 sword of grinding high while others struggle. Not everyone wants to ride the care bear express to equality ville.

Achieving something at the same time as everyone else is no more of an achievement than having my hand held and crossing the street. I’m a big boy now anet, I can decide how fast I want to get something without you prescribing how much fun I should be having and when.

Fair enough. Let me ask you this. Do you think you should get an edge over everyone else because you have more gold to spend or more time to put towards your Ascended items? Do you feel proud of defeating someone even though you had an unfair advantage?

The introduction of Ascended gear, as controversial as it already is, necessitates the need for this so called time gating. Beyond just the time required to get an Ascended piece ,there’s also the staggered release of Ascended items. This was completely intentional. If ArenaNet decided to release all Ascended items at once then the players with too much time and/or gold on their hands would likely dominate both PvE and WvW. Sure, they won’t be keeping this edge indefinitely but the fact that they can at all will upset the balance of the game.

Hmm, I wonder if we ever talked together, OP.

I’ll check back later after I have time to chew on this in my back-brain.

zeromius.1604:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Time Gated Crafting, ensuring that the vast majority of players can easily keep up.

Your post is perfectly agreeable, except this part.

I don’t want to be forced to go at a snails pace. If i want to put the effort or time or gold into smashing through content like a flood through New Orleans than I want the game to let me do that. Let me hold my phallus enhancing +20 sword of grinding high while others struggle. Not everyone wants to ride the care bear express to equality ville.

Achieving something at the same time as everyone else is no more of an achievement than having my hand held and crossing the street. I’m a big boy now anet, I can decide how fast I want to get something without you prescribing how much fun I should be having and when.

Fair enough. Let me ask you this. Do you think you should get an edge over everyone else because you have more gold to spend or more time to put towards your Ascended items? Do you feel proud of defeating someone even though you had an unfair advantage?

The introduction of Ascended gear, as controversial as it already is, necessitates the need for this so called time gating. Beyond just the time required to get an Ascended piece ,there’s also the staggered release of Ascended items. This was completely intentional. If ArenaNet decided to release all Ascended items at once then the players with too much time and/or gold on their hands would likely dominate both PvE and WvW. Sure, they won’t be keeping this edge indefinitely but the fact that they can at all will upset the balance of the game.

Yes and yes, though the pride is also mixed with laughter at their expense.

I understand completely why anet is doing this, of course. As you say the rich players would roll in in new gear and completely wreck all but the most skilled players leading to new players having a bad experience, casuals having a cry about how O/P the new gear is and so on. Clearly anet believes that the revenue they would lose doing this would be more in the long run than say, the revenue they could obtain from the whales that would outright buy gems to convert to gold to buy all the things needed to get their hands on an ascended weapon.

But those types of calculations are better left to John Smith.

Brutal Arts.6307:

zeromius.1604:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Time Gated Crafting, ensuring that the vast majority of players can easily keep up.

Your post is perfectly agreeable, except this part.

I don’t want to be forced to go at a snails pace. If i want to put the effort or time or gold into smashing through content like a flood through New Orleans than I want the game to let me do that. Let me hold my phallus enhancing +20 sword of grinding high while others struggle. Not everyone wants to ride the care bear express to equality ville.

Achieving something at the same time as everyone else is no more of an achievement than having my hand held and crossing the street. I’m a big boy now anet, I can decide how fast I want to get something without you prescribing how much fun I should be having and when.

Fair enough. Let me ask you this. Do you think you should get an edge over everyone else because you have more gold to spend or more time to put towards your Ascended items? Do you feel proud of defeating someone even though you had an unfair advantage?

The introduction of Ascended gear, as controversial as it already is, necessitates the need for this so called time gating. Beyond just the time required to get an Ascended piece ,there’s also the staggered release of Ascended items. This was completely intentional. If ArenaNet decided to release all Ascended items at once then the players with too much time and/or gold on their hands would likely dominate both PvE and WvW. Sure, they won’t be keeping this edge indefinitely but the fact that they can at all will upset the balance of the game.

Yes and yes, though the pride is also mixed with laughter at their expense.

I understand completely why anet is doing this, of course. As you say the rich players would roll in in new gear and completely wreck all but the most skilled players leading to new players having a bad experience, casuals having a cry about how O/P the new gear is and so on. Clearly anet believes that the revenue they would lose doing this would be more in the long run than say, the revenue they could obtain from the whales that would outright buy gems to convert to gold to buy all the things needed to get their hands on an ascended weapon.

But those types of calculations are better left to John Smith.

Those couple digit stat increases sure make a difference when you’re running around in a zerg and, outside of that, when you’re bashing health sponges with a stick. It makes me almost glad I have all my trinkets ascended from all that grinding I had to do.

Agreed with OP the communication from Anet needs to improve drastically. The only reason a lot of people have put down the torches and forks in the wvw forums is due to Devon’s high level of interaction imo.

There needs to be much more than this. Make it an activity thing in anet that for even just 30 mins on a friday every week al anet staff attend the forums and answer questions. Or, hire players an pay them in gems. Or just outource user fiverr or elance and get more communication officers. They dont have to know all the grand plans but simply reasure the populace or compile a list to pass to the developers.

I agree OP. Anet compromised, probably because they had to for the good of the game. I don’t really think they had a choice.

Those that thing there are enough players to support a completely cosmetic advancement are probably fooling themselves.

Oh sure it could work in Guild Wars 1, but that was 50 devs not 300. It was a much smaller scale game.

Anet was always going to make this a bigger/more ambitious project.

I mean in Guild Wars 1, you can pretty much solo 99% of the game including almost all the hard mode dungeons with heroes.

Guild Wars 2 depends on players being in game for more of the game. It’s a different dynamic.

Anet didn’t sit around in the office one day and say, hey I have an idea…let’s make a change that will kitten off everyone who’s followed our game for years.

At least I’m pretty sure that’s not what happened.

What they said was, okay we’re not holding on to players…what’s wrong. How can we get people playing again…and love it or hate it, it worked.

Their job is to keep the game running, not to keep it running the way I’d prefer it…and yes, I’d have preferred only cosmetic upgrades.

Anzu.5702:

Agreed with OP the communication from Anet needs to improve drastically. The only reason a lot of people have put down the torches and forks in the wvw forums is due to Devon’s high level of interaction imo.

There needs to be much more than this. Make it an activity thing in anet that for even just 30 mins on a friday every week al anet staff attend the forums and answer questions. Or, hire players an pay them in gems. Or just outource user fiverr or elance and get more communication officers. They dont have to know all the grand plans but simply reasure the populace or compile a list to pass to the developers.

Personally, this.
He gets a lot of kitten but he sticks in there and even posts something funny often. If that section had continued to have been ignored as much as it was I would’ve quit a long time ago. The WvW dev team, even with as frustrating as it can get waiting for content, is the ONLY reason I am still here.

Vayne.8563:

I mean in Guild Wars 1, you can pretty much solo 99% of the game including almost all the hard mode dungeons with heroes.

Been there, done that, got the Monuments Heck, I managed Prophecies with Henchies, now that was a painful experience. Just because people said it could not be done and I needed to group. Oh, and get on your warrior not your ranger.

Here, it’s harder but a lot of stuff you can do if you can dodge well enough. Presumably. It will just take forever in some cases.

Anyway, already spoke a lot of my pieces on this in other threads so not feeling like completely repeating myself here. I don’t expect Ascended to be as huge a problem as it is being made out to be, I’m curious as to what is the design response to it existing, and still resist the idea of high-level Fractals as “the fun stuff” due to it being the same as low-level stuff just with more one-shots and Agony.

. . . and if I don’t see Mursaat to show up as a result of widespread Infusion being a potential thing I’ll be more disappointed

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

There is a lot of hate being thrown around concerning the introduction of ascended gear and time gated crafting, so I feel the need to post here and clear something up for the general community.

ANet isn’t infallible (as the ascended gear being dropped on us with fractals shows), but they are showing remarkable levels of awareness in regards to what the players want out of gear, and they are taking responsible steps to make sure the majority of players get what they want.

TL;DR: Gamers as a community have condensed legitimate game design concepts into buzzwords that trigger kneejerk reactions.

condensed to make my point.

you have not cleared up anything for anyone. stop trying to fool players into thinking that they are “taking responsible steps” by transparently trying to get more money out of players. defending these poor decisions only encourages bad business behavior and cheapens the player experience.

they intentionally designed ascended gear to be a gold sink and cash cow through gem to gold purchases because they made buying a carp ton of mats for crafting the more preferred and realistic time investment method for most players to obtain this level of gear. that’s it. nothing more, nothing less.

Swagger.1459:

you have not cleared up anything for anyone. stop trying to fool players into thinking that they are “taking responsible steps” by transparently trying to get more money out of players. defending these poor decisions only encourages bad business behavior and cheapens the player experience.

Okay, I’m curious, just how are they trying to get more money out of players through Ascended?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Swagger.1459:

you have not cleared up anything for anyone. stop trying to fool players into thinking that they are “taking responsible steps” by transparently trying to get more money out of players. defending these poor decisions only encourages bad business behavior and cheapens the player experience.

Okay, I’m curious, just how are they trying to get more money out of players through Ascended?

okay, now i’m curious, did you not read the second half of my post?

Swagger.1459:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Swagger.1459:

you have not cleared up anything for anyone. stop trying to fool players into thinking that they are “taking responsible steps” by transparently trying to get more money out of players. defending these poor decisions only encourages bad business behavior and cheapens the player experience.

Okay, I’m curious, just how are they trying to get more money out of players through Ascended?

okay, now i’m curious, did you not read the second half of my post?

Well, yes and with the spelling and grammar errors I marked it “D-, see me after class”, but that’s beside the point. Mostly because it was a rambling run-on sentence which left me puzzled as to just how you reasoned it out. I’m going to try to feel it out, so let me know how accurate this is:

“We haven’t seen it yet, but it requires a lot of materials to make, which means it’s expensive, which means you must RMT it.”

tl;dr once I got to tl;dr but my hope or what I wanted when rumors of GW2 were floating around early on was: skill based sandbox Even skill-based sandbox w/o levels and the game world was more like Metrica Province in genera, like10k years in the future from GW1, yet parts even way more far out and alien like than it is now. But hey…

GW2 was a great to me because I didn’t have to care about gear progression, plus I could have several sets of (best tier) gear for any situation.

GW2 was promoted as a game with high build diversity (in terms of talents and gear).

GW2 was great, because you could level and gear several alts, and enjoy the game with several classes.

^All of these great things are now gone, because of the stupid time gated gear progression.

The problem is not the gear progression itself tho. The problem is its implementation.
It’s time gated in a very stupid way. Basically, acquiring the top tier gear in the game is boring and takes too much time. The “progressing” itself doesn’t really feel like a progression, but more like a chore. You thought farming dungeons was a boring old school way to acquire your gear? Welcome to the world of dailies and time gated craft of GW2! Enjoy your stay.

inb4 YOU DONT REALLY NEED THE ASCENDED GEAR.

TBH one of my fave things about gw2 is how stat-equivalent everyone can be. End game really just becomes about what aesthetics you’re going for.

Now while that suits me fine cos i"ll never farm for the aesthetics – there does need to be more ‘horizontal progression’ to make a perpendicular to your coined term.

It means that when you hit 80, there should simply be more stat choices available. Not an increase in stats with ascended, but more options. And they should be balanced options that are all relevant. Where is a power+crit+toughness option with power being the primary? or where is power+crit+toughness where crit is the primary.

This will give players choice as to where they want to build and progression is simply keeping up with your build decisions which is crucial as Anet plan to add more skills as part of future progression desing.

Here’s ANOTHER way to look at this:

If you hit the gym every day and work your kitten off for a sixpack, you won’t just want to look good, you’ll want your core to have some power as well.

Swagger.1459:

you have not cleared up anything for anyone. stop trying to fool players into thinking that they are “taking responsible steps” by transparently trying to get more money out of players. defending these poor decisions only encourages bad business behavior and cheapens the player experience.

they intentionally designed ascended gear to be a gold sink and cash cow through gem to gold purchases because they made buying a carp ton of mats for crafting the more preferred and realistic time investment method for most players to obtain this level of gear. that’s it. nothing more, nothing less.

The only Ascended gear that requires a tonne of mats is some of the back-pieces. And even then, one of the back-pieces requires nothing to be bought with gold unless you want to infuse it (250 ecto’s).

As for the crafting, since we don’t actually know what the recipes are, other than they have some form of time-gating, you can’t make that statement about them.

Vocah.1208:

Here’s ANOTHER way to look at this:

If you hit the gym every day and work your kitten off for a sixpack, you won’t just want to look good, you’ll want your core to have some power as well.

But here’s the thing, there are plenty of games that treat you that way via numbers. Basically every other MMO out there will give you higher stats in return for time played. Guild Wars 2, pre-launch was heavily messaged to not require grind, and reward skill over time spent. Lots and lots of folks took that to mean that power creep and gear grind (buzzwords, I know, but there’s no better word for them) were basically not going to be issues in this game.

As far as I’m concerned, the core power that you speak of is my mind being sharper, and my fingers being more nimble, and has nothing to do with arbitrary numbers on my hero panel. I know there are a lot of complaints to be had about endgame PvE right now, but if the content is lacking, does giving you new numbers to chase through the “lacking” content really fix anything? Why do you play MMO’s? Are they actually fun for you, or are they just a reward dispenser?

For those of us who primarily play in WvW, a new tier of gear is a needless imbalance, and one that will likely require a hefty bit of PvE to get. Plus there’s the issue of time-gating BiS equipment. Before, any character who had been leveled could easily gear up, not just for one build, but as many as necessary, and we could get back to the business of competitive play. Now we’re going to have to decide, do I gear up my guardian or my mesmer first? Do I get a BiS support staff, or BiS tanking hammer first? Will my mesmer be worth playing while I’m busy gearing up my guardian?

I get that the WoW model works for a lot of people, but GW2 was marketed as an escape from that. A year ago, if you would have said that you really needed a home with gear grind in it, I would have told you the joint you’re looking for is up the street. Now I say just throw your skritt anywhere. Everyone else already has.

The biggest problem here isn’t that ANet chose a system, it’s that they advertised one and within three months delivered something quite different.

BondageBill.4021:

@OP:
The key aspect to a casual vertical progression would be the ability to continually progress based on tasks that the casual player will complete during a normal play cycle. IMO, laurels tied to dailies and monthlies were a good design decision in this direction. For the most part, everyone can complete the daily in a reasonable time period regardless of the specific activity they are engaged in for that session (and activities that cannot complete the daily should have been included to cover the rest of the game).

However, each of ANet’s other ascended acquisition methods relates to a specific gameplay type, where you cannot reasonably expect someone to complete it unless they are focused in that task specifically: FotM, Guild Missions, Crafting. IMO, this is bad design, because it creates the feeling that the player must engage in specific activities to chase gear instead of playing he content that each player believes is fun.

Ascended gear should never have been used as a carrot to get people to try specific content that ANet was attempting to promote.

Instead, ascended gear should be available via all playstyles. And don’t try to say that is currently the case; I don’t consider 40 laurels and 50 ectos per earring to be reasonable when you need 2 per spec per character.

It appears weapons are headed in his direction as well. Where crafting was optional before, now you will need to level 3 crafts to maintain max stat gear. Prior to last Tuesday, there was no expectation for a majority of players to complete this task.

This is an extremely valuable perspective, one I haven’t heard anywhere else yet. If ANet were to make Ascended item vouchers part of the monthly reward, would that be acceptable?

BondageBill.4021:

@OP:

I dislike ascended gear. That said, I agree with you that it is, theoretically, possible to create a system wherein vertical progression exists but is limited to such a rate that everyone who plays the game reasonably often does not fall behind the power curve. However, Anet has not succeeded in this goal.

The key aspect to a casual vertical progression would be the ability to continually progress based on tasks that the casual player will complete during a normal play cycle. IMO, laurels tied to dailies and monthlies were a good design decision in this direction. For the most part, everyone can complete the daily in a reasonable time period regardless of the specific activity they are engaged in for that session (and activities that cannot complete the daily should have been included to cover the rest of the game).

However, each of ANet’s other ascended acquisition methods relates to a specific gameplay type, where you cannot reasonably expect someone to complete it unless they are focused in that task specifically: FotM, Guild Missions, Crafting. IMO, this is bad design, because it creates the feeling that the player must engage in specific activities to chase gear instead of playing he content that each player believes is fun.

Ascended gear should never have been used as a carrot to get people to try specific content that ANet was attempting to promote.

Instead, ascended gear should be available via all playstyles. And don’t try to say that is currently the case; I don’t consider 40 laurels and 50 ectos per earring to be reasonable when you need 2 per spec per character.

It appears weapons are headed in his direction as well. Where crafting was optional before, now you will need to level 3 crafts to maintain max stat gear. Prior to last Tuesday, there was no expectation for a majority of players to complete this task.

With the new post today about ascended gear, I’d like to take a moment to emphasize a specific part of it:

First off, crafting is not the only way to get Ascended Weapons! Anywhere you can get an Ascended Material drop or an Ascended item drop there is also a rare chance that you will get an Ascended Weapon chest that allows you to choose which weapon type you want from within a stat combo. And lastly, there is a new collection tab for Ascended Crafting materials that includes all the new materials and gives you a little peak at the additional materials coming later this year.

Ascended is a loot drop, just like exotics are, and everyone has a 20% MF base now, so your average rarity for drops goes up. On top of that, if you aren’t a crafter, you can salvage ALL the stuff you find and turn it into more MF for better drops. This means that non-crafters are going to have a valuable place in the economy as suppliers of materials, since they will have relatively higher MF, and thus more and better mats.

EDIT: Also, the new account-based MF makes each successive alt easier to gear. They ARE trying, it’s just slow going.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

This is an extremely valuable perspective, one I haven’t heard anywhere else yet. If ANet were to make Ascended item vouchers part of the monthly reward, would that be acceptable?

What makes this perspective so valuable? Is it simply because you feel its valuable among all the other perspectives? I’d really like to hear your train of thought.

What is casual vertical progression anyway

“Would that be acceptable.”

I believe the designer should know enough about their game to know what’s acceptable, and not have to cherrypick among a whirlpool of ideas. As one poster before state, quite elegantly I might add, the design should be for the sake of the game’s DNA. I’m not confident that this thread is even breaking the cellular level and you’re asking others what would be acceptable?

Forgive my rather accusatory tone, but has brought you to deign post in the forum of lowly gamers? Are here simply to quell the noise of rowdy dissidents? If so, then there’s little point to thread as it’s regurgitating the rhetoric of many before you, most of whom I wouldn’t even say are designers. Are you here to open discussion? If so then I highly suggest that you reassess both your methods and your disposition.

I’ve seen many of these threads pop up in the past, and this one isn’t special even with commentary from a designer. A trap many of them fall into is that the issues discussed in them are improperly framed and discussed at surface level. But that’s the nature of of the almighty “buzzword” mentality that you warn us about- arguing things through a cursory look at the issues. If progression is the issue, then the purpose and mechanics of progression needs to be acknowledged, not simply how one feels about it. This extends past issues of pacing you bring up as well.

Put simply, the progressions system is pedantic and uninteresting, but it depends on how you frame it. If we’re talking about progression in relation to content, the most prevalent issue with progression occurs throughout the game and not just with ascended gear. The issue is that the vertical progression does not break the monotony of gameplay. This is apparent after obtaining max level for all trait points and skills but for some professions even level 30 or 60 is pushing it. After the optimal skill rotation and stats combination are figured out progression afterwards doesn’t open up meaningful or engaging gameplay options or challenges (and it rarely even mattes what you use in this game for better or worse). The stat progression simply increases the numbers scaling. It’s an issue with build variety as well; almost everything is a variation of the same type of gameplay as in the early levels which are already arguable rather monotonous to begin with. The numbers move slightly different is all. I’d say that the combat, skill design, a enemy design are the core of this issue. I’m sure a designer could further elaborate on it, if he or she knows what he’s talking about.

What has ascended gear added to the content? Bigger numbers to the very same type of gameplay. Absolutely unnecessary, and ironically enough it’s even argued that way from the sides either supporting or indifferent about their implementation.

If we’re framing the issue in terms of acquisition as you are, then the method of delivery is simply uninteresting. It’s predictable and it forces players to form schedules simply to acquire it in a reasonable amount of time. If we’re to draw comparisons between this game and the loot-centric Diablo series (inb4 different game and genre so even similar things are irrelevant!), the loot system is not unlike Diablo 3, where, due to the phasing as stat balance, only the highest tier of loot in the highest game mode is relevant. This has the added effect of phasing out certain maps, making them irrelevant NPC/Auction House fodder. Compare to, say, Diablo 2 where loot is relevant due to the item upgrading system or even GW1 where all loot after the tutorial levels are fully functional. Even lowest tier drops in either of those games can be useful, but there’s still a random rarity system to spice up the drops.

If we’re talking about the gear itself, then, as stated before, the gear has added little more than stats.

TwoBit.5903:

What makes this perspective so valuable? Is it simply because you feel its valuable among all the other perspectives? I’d really like to hear your train of thought.

I consider it a valuable perspective due to its merit and rarity. It was a argument that I hadn’t heard previously, and therefore merited extra attention.

TwoBit.5903:

What is casual vertical progression anyway

Vertical progression that casual players aren’t left behind because of.

TwoBit.5903:

“Would that be acceptable.”

I believe the designer should know enough about their game to know what’s acceptable, and not have to cherrypick among a whirlpool of ideas. As one poster before state, quite elegantly I might add, the design should be for the sake of the game’s DNA. I’m not confident that this thread is even breaking the cellular level and you’re asking others what would be acceptable?

Dialog between players & designers provides feedback on possible changes. Dialog between players provides perspective for the designers. Neither of these things happen unless everyone is civil. It’s not really about cherrypicking, it’s about finding the things that stand out and addressing them as a community and as a company.

TwoBit.5903:

Forgive my rather accusatory tone, but has brought you to deign post in the forum of lowly gamers? Are here simply to quell the noise of rowdy dissidents? If so, then there’s little point to thread as it’s regurgitating the rhetoric of many before you, most of whom I wouldn’t even say are designers. Are you here to open discussion? If so then I highly suggest that you reassess both your methods and your disposition.

I posted to give the perspective of a person who has been through the process many times before, and to encourage others to discuss the issue from multiple angles, instead of only as a player. I found myself upset with many of these changes too, until I took a step back and put my Professional hat on instead of my Player hat. There are still things I am unhappy with ANet about (lack of communication, employee churn causing workflow breakdowns, etc) but from where I sit, I still see a company that set a new benchmark for MMOs in general. GW2 may not be the top game forever, but it definitely invalidated countless crappy MMOs just by existing. That was worth my investment in it, and until they prove that they aren’t interested in the players and fixing their issues (and I don’t mean NOW, I mean that they are still trying), then they will keep getting my support.

@Accusation: I apologize if it seems that I’m talking from a “high horse” of sorts. I don’t mean to, I just try to clearly state my opinions (both professional and personal) and the best way for me to do so is to rewrite my post 2-3 times until it’s as clear as possible. Unfortunately, doing so tends to make my posts sound less personal.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

[snip]
Now here comes the other boogeyman of MMOs: Vertical Progression. I need to make this VERY clear…Vertical Progression is nothing more than the introduction of new gear levels over time. It is NOT inherently a bad thing. “Gear Grind” is a TYPE of VP, the most easily abused and the one most common in MMOs. ANet isn’t infallible (as the ascended gear being dropped on us with fractals shows), but they are showing remarkable levels of awareness in regards to what the players want out of gear, and they are taking responsible steps to make sure the majority of players get what they want.
[snip]

Somehow missed this thread but want to correct the OP’s misunderstanding of VP. There are no ‘types’ of VP. There isn’t a “gear grind” type and a “non-gear grind” type . And, It is not all about new gear levels. All you need to know about VP is found in the words that make up the concept. Vertical: the power level of the game increases, Progression: it increases continually over time. Simple. It is usually implemented via new gear levels but this is not necessary at all as you could keep a named tier indefinitely and simply raise the power level of the game through infusions. It’s not about gear, per se, it’s about the power level of the game

The purpose of VP is to 1) provide a sense of character progression, and 2) provide an incentive for continued play.

So, again, there is no gear-grind type of VP as the gear-grind is a side-effect of VP itself. Because we are talking about the power level of the game the “incentive” or the treadmill is non-optional. If you don’t follow the power curve, you eventually won’t be able to play the game. Once you have the definition of VP handled it’s non-optional nature is self-evident. VP is an old concept and it’s commonly understood among game designers and players. Usually, the issue is around whether it’s good or bad, here it’s often about misunderstanding what it is and denying that it’s negative effects will be experienced in GW2. VP has extra baggage and negative effects. They are and will be experienced by both developers (managing VP) and players (the non-optional treadmill) in GW2.