Guild Wars 2

SijjvraVisz.7159:

I said CHARACTER CREATION which meant males as well as females. There are some MMO’s that do character creation much, much better… GW2 is pretty lame in that aspect. Yeah, the male faces are pretty awful too and smack of bishy anime 12 year old pretty boys. Boring.

But seriously… WHY would any viking-esque woman wear a ton of makeup? Do you -really- think warrior women in history decked their faces out and slapped on some high-heel thigh high boots to go fight in? That’s all pop culture. And depending on the time period and culture, women may or MAY NOT have been showing skin. Victorian era, for example -you showed your ankles and that was risuqe’. Instead of doing anything remotely interesting with cultures or remotely taken from history save for the boring stereo types of the Nord (obviously viking influenced), we get pop-culture influenced underwear armor that would look more natural in a Victoria’s Secret magazine. Sorry, I find it stupid, uninspired, and utterly lacking in creativity. GW2 took the easy way out with character creation and armor design, and I don’t like it at all. Hard to be attached to my character when I can’t stand how any of the options for the races look. You may have a differing opinion and that’s fine – but I’m old school and I prefer armor to look like armor and warrior women not to look like little fashion models on a catwalk.

Ah, I see your problem…and agree…to a point.

The problem is, if you made armor to look like armor for female characters, you’d be in a bad position with the women (and men) who play female characters to wear sexy armor. It’s not fair, but it is how the market works.

What should happen is that there should be enough choices to keep both schools happy. But you can bet that most companies that have a substantial investment in a product will try to appeal to the masses.

SijjvraVisz.7159:

But seriously… WHY would any viking-esque woman wear a ton of makeup? Do you -really- think warrior women in history decked their faces out and slapped on some high-heel thigh high boots to go fight in? That’s all pop culture.

Except for where it’s not. I don’t recall seeing heavy armor having heels. They have flat soles, for the most part. Also, on the norn? That’s not makeup but . . . hey, I don’t want to get into explaining that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SijjvraVisz.7159:

But seriously… WHY would any viking-esque woman wear a ton of makeup? Do you -really- think warrior women in history decked their faces out and slapped on some high-heel thigh high boots to go fight in? That’s all pop culture.

Except for where it’s not. I don’t recall seeing heavy armor having heels. They have flat soles, for the most part. Also, on the norn? That’s not makeup but . . . hey, I don’t want to get into explaining that.

Seriously, I don’t mean the woads. But those lips and lashes, c’mon dude… no woman looks like that without caking on a ton of makeup.

As for “it’s just how the market is” ? Well the market is rubbish, and has been for decades. People can be passive and say that all they want – I’m not a passive person and I speak out against things I think are garbage – and the way females are portrayed in this game (and in pop-culture in general) is garbage from top to bottom.

Any way you slice it, male or female, character creation is not a strong point in this game.

SijjvraVisz.7159:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SijjvraVisz.7159:

But seriously… WHY would any viking-esque woman wear a ton of makeup? Do you -really- think warrior women in history decked their faces out and slapped on some high-heel thigh high boots to go fight in? That’s all pop culture.

Except for where it’s not. I don’t recall seeing heavy armor having heels. They have flat soles, for the most part. Also, on the norn? That’s not makeup but . . . hey, I don’t want to get into explaining that.

Seriously, I don’t mean the woads. But those lips and lashes, c’mon dude… no woman looks like that without caking on a ton of makeup.

Okay, you don’t mean the woads, that’s good because that’s where I got confused. Have more than a few people who say that’s unrealistic/fantasy only.

On the one hand, there are plenty of natural ways to color lips, mostly falling into “berries”.

On the other, you also have everyone showing white teeth, no sores or scars in random places from wearing armor 24/7 or just active battle lifestyle. And no matted hair/fur, or deformities, or fat people.

Any way you slice it, male or female, character creation is not a strong point in this game.

I could kind of agree.

Yet the last time I played a game with strong character creation tools, I found myself wondering “who needs all this stuff? nose placement? cheekbones? . . .”

A lot of people really enjoy having that many options to tweak their character, mostly old school RPers and MMORPers and MUDers that want to feel attached to the avatar/character – if my character looks like every other character out there, I just find myself not giving much of a crap in general about the game, because I know that means most other things are likely to be cut and paste too. Turns out that most of the time that’s exactly what happens.

I just find it rather sad that instead of moving towards having -more- options (for character creation and other advancement options/gameplay features) MMOs seem to be moving -backwards-. How is it that older games, like COH (didn’t care for the game but can’t argue that the character creation was at all lacking) or EQ2 or even AION (though I didn’t care for the art style in general ) have -more- options for something as simple but fundamental as character creation in the past few years?

SijjvraVisz.7159:

How is it that older games, like COH (didn’t care for the game but can’t argue that the character creation was at all lacking) or EQ2 or even AION (though I didn’t care for the art style in general ) have -more- options for something as simple but fundamental as character creation in the past few years?

Well . . . I couldn’t make half the designs I really wanted fooling around in CoX. And I never tried EQ2 or Aion so I can’t speak for those.

As for why we’re moving backwards? I can answer some of that easily enough. For this game in particular, we have the curious problem of five races of differing body types and armor which has to mesh properly to the models. I’m wagering a lot of time went into trying their best to be sure that worked (and still have clipping issues for a notable amount of combinations, alas) and less into actual facial detail.

Being honest, I don’t care about facial detail, because I very rarely get to see it with any focus on the face in many games I play. Guild Wars 1 & 2 were the last couple I got to really see the character models up close as part of an MMO without having to trick the camera around walls and corners. (Looking at you, EverQuest. . .)

However, I want to leave this thought here. The sheer amount of customization you can do in Skyrim . . . and then never see your character’s face again due to helmets? Seems like a waste of artists’ efforts.

Interesting the OP doesn’t like the water droplets. It’s one of the little things that I so appreciate. The graphics are amazing in this game.

I am saying this, Sijjvra – you seem to claim that these characters are all barbie doll like and the player therefore has no choice but to create a look that conforms to some pop-culture notion of beauty. As evidenced by the pic I took earlier, that is not the case. The developers gave you the option to make an ugly character. Anet’s NPCs are not ugly, and almost none of the players make ugly characters (so it’s not JUST on Anet). Still, the option still exists to make a troll, so to speak. If I wanted to make an ugly character and RP her as some sort of reject or whatever, thanks to the character customization I have that option. I can make my toon look like a supermodel or make her beauty one rung above that of an Asura. In light of this, you are grasping at straws when you go on to speak of their underwear, lol.

I feel it is unfair to accuse or imply Anet’s character customization is, in your words, “very lacking” and flavor that idea with that of them being beholden to a monolithic notion of this pop-culture beauty.

Oh yes, the Victorian era … I was fairly certain you’d mention that. Again, that’s why I said “quite often” and not “always.” Besides, while England was going through its Victorian era, French women were showing that cleavage like mad. ;-) Again, at many times in history, women were apt to show more skin than men, in the West at least. Either way, this trend continues to this day, and this game, and many others, reflect that reality and adds a stylistic spin to it. About sexism, objectification and whatnot – that’s a rabbit hole that I really don’t wanna go down right now as the thread will probably get deleted. I’ll just say, that women are objectified, yes – but Anet does not go off the deep end with it having these female toons with balloon boobies and airhead demeanors as so often portrayed in other games and media. In short, I don’t feel it is so bad here as to call out the devs —- especially when you can, again, make a char that flies in the face of this American beauty, if I may.

So simply put: We can make a pretty toon, we can make an ugly toon, and we can make one in between; we can make a black Nigerian girl, a Japanese girl, and a blonde hair and blue eyed Northern Euro looking girl. She can be short or tall, thick(er) or thin, and we can do the same for both sexes —- how exactly is is that, in your words, “very lacking”?

Now, I do agree with you about the armor – showing skin or not – it kinda sucks. I consider armor a drawback of this game. Too many pieces share the same design… like why is a level 60 greatsword the same model as a level 5?!

I love RP – and the lack of vendors that sell simple non-combat clothing is disheartening, and even what they have in the “store” is kinda lacking. Also, I don’t like how a profession cannot equip armor that is under the type they wear for combat (Guard can’t wear cloth, for example). That’s one aspect of WoW that absolutely decimates GW2 — in WoW I can, for a few coins, go right to a vendor and get a cheap white quality outfit to use for RP. The AH is stocked with all sorts of gear that one can use for RP. With regard to that, RP’ers kinda get it bad here, imo.

Nuage.5230:

Now, I do agree with you about the armor – showing skin or not – it kinda sucks. I consider armor a drawback of this game. Too many pieces share the same design… like why is a level 60 greatsword the same model as a level 5?!

I’m still looking for the “lots of warrior-women armor” in high heels.

SijjvraVisz.7159:

A lot of people really enjoy having that many options to tweak their character, mostly old school RPers and MMORPers and MUDers that want to feel attached to the avatar/character – if my character looks like every other character out there, I just find myself not giving much of a crap in general about the game, because I know that means most other things are likely to be cut and paste too. Turns out that most of the time that’s exactly what happens.

I just find it rather sad that instead of moving towards having -more- options (for character creation and other advancement options/gameplay features) MMOs seem to be moving -backwards-. How is it that older games, like COH (didn’t care for the game but can’t argue that the character creation was at all lacking) or EQ2 or even AION (though I didn’t care for the art style in general ) have -more- options for something as simple but fundamental as character creation in the past few years?

The problem is, it isn’t just men who want these types of costumes, but women too. Do you know in games where you can make ugly characters, a disproportionate numbers of characters are made to look as good as possible?

When TSW launched there were tons of complaints about not being able to make a good looking woman character….many of those complaints from women. TSW went out and changed a lot of the starting character stuff, because that’s what people wanted.

My wife likes making really attractive female characters, some of them scantily clad. It’s her choice.

The problem is, why should game companies put time and money into stuff that only a small percentage of the fan base wants.

That’s why we end up going “backwards”. Because we live in a society where appearance is worth so much more than substance.

CoH was a wonder in its day, for character creation diversity (Champions Online is pretty good too, and still going), but those are superhero character creations, they’re supposed to be incredibly varied. If one wanted “realistic” character creation, it would probably be too boring unless the whole game was oriented around a more sim-like mediaeval fantasy experience.

Personally, I’m all for the thing of warrior women looking sexy. It’s unrealistic, but it’s fun.

Also, when has looking good never been a concern even for warriors? A moment’s thought would suggest that long hair in battle is a very, very bad idea, but many warrior cultures have treasured their locks. It just looks cool when you’re swinging that axe.

Vayne.8563:

That’s why we end up going “backwards”. Because we live in a society where appearance is worth so much more than substance.

Or people just want to look good with their virtual characters. There’s that too, pure simple escapism.

@ OP:

Just popping since I read that you consider armor design a weak point of GW2. Here you can preview most of the armors available in game, so check it out and see if your opinion changes Most of it though is only available through specific means (crafting, karma vendors, dungeons), so you are totally right when you say that there’s close to no variety as far as dropped armors goes.

http://www.gw2armor.com/

Wolfheart.1938:

@ OP:

Just popping since I read that you consider armor design a weak point of GW2. Here you can preview most of the armors available in game, so check it out and see if your opinion changes Most of it though is only available through specific means (crafting, karma vendors, dungeons), so you are totally right when you say that there’s close to no variety as far as dropped armors goes.

http://www.gw2armor.com/

Thanks for that link – gonna start farming karma hardcore now. ;-)

But yeah, just for the sake of us cheesy RP’ers I would love a few vendors with a nice variety of simple clothes sold for but a few coins. I reckon things like that will come in time, so it’s all good.

SijjvraVisz.7159:

I said CHARACTER CREATION which meant males as well as females. There are some MMO’s that do character creation much, much better… GW2 is pretty lame in that aspect. Yeah, the male faces are pretty awful too and smack of bishy anime 12 year old pretty boys. Boring.

But seriously… WHY would any viking-esque woman wear a ton of makeup? Do you -really- think warrior women in history decked their faces out and slapped on some high-heel thigh high boots to go fight in? That’s all pop culture. And depending on the time period and culture, women may or MAY NOT have been showing skin. Victorian era, for example -you showed your ankles and that was risuqe’. Instead of doing anything remotely interesting with cultures or remotely taken from history save for the boring stereo types of the Nord (obviously viking influenced), we get pop-culture influenced underwear armor that would look more natural in a Victoria’s Secret magazine. Sorry, I find it stupid, uninspired, and utterly lacking in creativity. GW2 took the easy way out with character creation and armor design, and I don’t like it at all. Hard to be attached to my character when I can’t stand how any of the options for the races look. You may have a differing opinion and that’s fine – but I’m old school and I prefer armor to look like armor and warrior women not to look like little fashion models on a catwalk.

Off-topic:
I can appreciate your point, but I haven’t really found it too difficult to find heavy armor for my Norn guardian that suits my (very similar) tastes. In fact, I quite liked the look of several of the heavy armor skins I came across while leveling.

Ideally, there should be enough different skins to satisfy many different tastes, so hopefully we will see more added over time. I found it hard to get excited about the dungeon or cultural skins, but I did like the primeval skin from the gem store (screenshot below), so hopefully you will eventually find the armor skin that works for you.

On-topic:
Thanks for your post OP, it is good that GW2 finally “clicked” with you.