Guild Wars 2

dlonie.6547:

Cyninja.2954:

As a not very devote person, I’ll still leave you with this quote of the Serenity Prayer hoping it might part on some wisdom to you:

"
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
"
Serenity Prayer

It also applies quite well to the conversation in this thread

True. It just becomes so tiresome when the always same topics with the always same flawed conclusions as basis reappear.

If we assume that berserker gear is a problem, I would love for people to come up with solutions that don’t invole changing stats on gear (since those aren’t the core problem) but instead analyse game mechanics, make suggestions on how to change or improve on them and then end with a proper conclusion to it all that does not include “let’s go back to trinity system, etc etc”.

This circle of uselessness clutters up the forums for meaningful disscussions on actual things that need addressing.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyninja.2954:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyninja.2954:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyninja.2954:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I call bullkitten on this. Both defensive, instacast abilities like blocking, or any CC abilities like knockdowns, knockbacks, taunts and stuns have been around long before GW2. Unless you are talking about Runescape which is entirely based on probabilities (and here we are talking about a 14-15 year old browser game) most MMOs of today have mechanics similar to GW2.

Name 1 MMO that does semi-well with active defence and no trinity besides GW2. Just 1 please cause I have a very hard time thinking of one.

Yes, other games have active defences (Tera for one- went f2p) but none of those have no trinity. MAJOR! difference.

With active defense there are a ton, but without trinity there are none. You speak of trinity as if it’s some kind of advantage, but it’s not, it’s more a flaw than anything. No trinity leads to stagnation, it’s a problem.

When you advertise a lack of trinity, you sound like this:

“Hey guys! My car is unlike others, it lacks seatbelts, doors and windows! Look at my innovation!”

I speak of trinity as part of the game which needs to be considered when designing new content and adressing balance. Something your suggestions and ideas are lacking hard.

Thanks for confirming though that your argument with “other games do it” is void. There are no other games similar to GW2 currently.

I said that other games have defence and CC active abilities. Never once I have said that they had both a lack of trinity and defence/CC. Not once.

Yet your suggestions are entirely based on the other games working in a similar way as GW2, which they don’t.

The point being that other games are doing it right, and GW2 isn’t. Proof? Other games have several viable builds, in GW2 you can run the entire game with 1 build.

Maybe, with a bit of critical thinking, you could be led to think that GW2 would be better off just having a system that is confirmed to work than trying to invent something that doesn’t. You must play zerk, yes? Going for things that work rather than being creative is something familiar to you, yes? Then we should be agreeing here.

Both Dark Souls and FF VII work while providing a completely different combat experience. It’s not as much about what works as it is about the kind of gameplay you’re looking for.

Elitism is a reality already.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

I’ll stick around for direct questions, too

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Why do you hate the trinity gameplay?

I don’t. I can just appreciate the combat system that is here, without getting hung up on the fact that its different.

And how do you know where this game is going after HoT? More than once have I heard that they are trying to bring changes to the current zerk problem. If they balance classes and make glasscanon runs impossible, and if several builds are viable and required for dungeons, it will inevitably lead to the trinity setup.

If they make glass cannons completely non-viable, that would go against the core design of the game. That isn’t going to happen.

There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

What you’re missing is that a build is more than gear stats. All zerks aren’t running the same build, there are multiple “meta” trait and skill configurations used for different PvE encounters. Just because they aren’t changing their gear doesn’t mean they’re all playing the same way.

What is according to you the core design of this game?

Active combat:

- active dodge
- active reflects
- group synergy from offensive and defensive skills
- the possibility to reduce all damage directed at the group/player through skillfull play (relfexes and proper skill choice)

No trinity:

- the classes and content are not designed to tank and spank
- changing this is not a mere change in some stats here in there. It’s a redesign of the entire PvE and PvP aspect of the game
- recoding of the entire AI aswell since it currently doesn’t support tank and spank

Those things combined are the sole reason why people are able to work off of maximum damage stats and pick berserkers. It has literally nothing to do with the actual stats on the armor.

Summerized:

Damage negation = not relevant on gear.

Solution: roll maximum damage gear.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

The rest of what you said, well, you just made a list there of everything that is wrong with this game – healers not being needed due to each class having too much heal burst, full supportive classes not being useful due to warriors being able to both support and do damage, and so on and so forth.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Finishing a dungeon with 5 of the same builds should be impossible, especially with glasscannon builds.

Seriously, just go play WoW. You clearly don’t understand this game (zerker != build), and you clearly just want to play another WoW clone. So just go play WoW. You’ll be much happier

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

I’ll stick around for direct questions, too

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Why do you hate the trinity gameplay?

I don’t. I can just appreciate the combat system that is here, without getting hung up on the fact that its different.

And how do you know where this game is going after HoT? More than once have I heard that they are trying to bring changes to the current zerk problem. If they balance classes and make glasscanon runs impossible, and if several builds are viable and required for dungeons, it will inevitably lead to the trinity setup.

If they make glass cannons completely non-viable, that would go against the core design of the game. That isn’t going to happen.

There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

What you’re missing is that a build is more than gear stats. All zerks aren’t running the same build, there are multiple “meta” trait and skill configurations used for different PvE encounters. Just because they aren’t changing their gear doesn’t mean they’re all playing the same way.

What is according to you the core design of this game?

The principle that “all builds are viable” is something that ArenaNet has worked to maintain since launch. To suddenly make certain content inaccessible to certain builds would be a significant departure from the groundwork they’ve laid.

The burst heals, active defenses, and focus on utility support are there intentionally. They don’t want the trinity, everyone should be doing a little bit of each role.

But, at this point, you’ve explicitly said:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

The point being that other games are doing it right, and GW2 isn’t. Proof? Other games have several viable builds, in GW2 you can run the entire game with 1 build.

which doesn’t really makes sense. Just because everything can be completed with one gearset doesn’t render all others non-viable. They just aren’t “optimal”, if optimizing for speed. But more than that, you’ve said that other games are “right” because they use the trinity, while GW2 is wrong because it doesn’t.

On top of that, I’ve given detailed, constructive feedback to each of your posts so far, and haven’t heard anything back from you other than “But it doesn’t have a trinity!”.

Kinda makes continuing this discussion feel pointless. Have a nice day

Cyninja.2954:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

I’ll stick around for direct questions, too

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Why do you hate the trinity gameplay?

I don’t. I can just appreciate the combat system that is here, without getting hung up on the fact that its different.

And how do you know where this game is going after HoT? More than once have I heard that they are trying to bring changes to the current zerk problem. If they balance classes and make glasscanon runs impossible, and if several builds are viable and required for dungeons, it will inevitably lead to the trinity setup.

If they make glass cannons completely non-viable, that would go against the core design of the game. That isn’t going to happen.

There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

What you’re missing is that a build is more than gear stats. All zerks aren’t running the same build, there are multiple “meta” trait and skill configurations used for different PvE encounters. Just because they aren’t changing their gear doesn’t mean they’re all playing the same way.

What is according to you the core design of this game?

Active combat:

- active dodge
- active reflects
- group synergy from offensive and defensive skills
- the possibility to reduce all damage directed at the group/player through skillfull play (relfexes and proper skill choice)

No trinity:

- the classes and content are not designed to tank and spank
- changing this is not a mere change in some stats here in there. It’s a redesign of the entire PvE and PvP aspect of the game
- recoding of the entire AI aswell since it currently doesn’t support tank and spank

Those things combined are the sole reason why people are able to work off of maximum damage stats and pick berserkers. It has literally nothing to do with the actual stats on the armor.

Summerized:

Damage negation = not relevant on gear.

Solution: roll maximum damage gear.

I agree. I will also add this:

That groups of players (either enough for a Group Event or 5 for a dungeon) with enough skill can complete any content they want regardless of what their builds are. They don’t have to stop and make sure they have a good ratio of healers or tanks or control or support or whatever.

I’m just excited to play my full Valkyrie Revenant with Superior Runes of the Wurm!

I am pretty sure I can run a faster dungeon tour than zerker pugs while having all my teammates wearing PTV gear. Just saying….

Dawnbreaker.6215:

WoW has existed for more than 10 years and it has always had tanks, healers and nukers in every dungeon, even the ones that are old.

Because it’s combat is based on tanks, healers and nukers.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

LoL/DoTa, just to mention an example that isn’t a MMORPG, have been going for a long time as well, and it is unthinkable to have a full nuker party. Suggesting so would get you ridiculed.

Are you kidding me? You just compared PVP games to a pve dungeons in gw2? U mad?

dlonie.6547:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

I’ll stick around for direct questions, too

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Why do you hate the trinity gameplay?

I don’t. I can just appreciate the combat system that is here, without getting hung up on the fact that its different.

And how do you know where this game is going after HoT? More than once have I heard that they are trying to bring changes to the current zerk problem. If they balance classes and make glasscanon runs impossible, and if several builds are viable and required for dungeons, it will inevitably lead to the trinity setup.

If they make glass cannons completely non-viable, that would go against the core design of the game. That isn’t going to happen.

There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

What you’re missing is that a build is more than gear stats. All zerks aren’t running the same build, there are multiple “meta” trait and skill configurations used for different PvE encounters. Just because they aren’t changing their gear doesn’t mean they’re all playing the same way.

What is according to you the core design of this game?

The principle that “all builds are viable” is something that ArenaNet has worked to maintain since launch. To suddenly make certain content inaccessible to certain builds would be a significant departure from the groundwork they’ve laid.

The burst heals, active defenses, and focus on utility support are there intentionally. They don’t want the trinity, everyone should be doing a little bit of each role.

But, at this point, you’ve explicitly said:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

The point being that other games are doing it right, and GW2 isn’t. Proof? Other games have several viable builds, in GW2 you can run the entire game with 1 build.

which doesn’t really makes sense. Just because everything can be completed with one gearset doesn’t render all others non-viable. They just aren’t “optimal”, if optimizing for speed. But more than that, you’ve said that other games are “right” because they use the trinity, while GW2 is wrong because it doesn’t.

On top of that, I’ve given detailed, constructive feedback to each of your posts so far, and haven’t heard anything back from you other than “But it doesn’t have a trinity!”.

Kinda makes continuing this discussion feel pointless. Have a nice day

Actually I have put back more feedback than just that.

The difficulty here isn’t getting my point across. The difficulty is to actually get you to listen in good faith, which is far more difficult than anything else since in a discussion nobody ever agrees to be wrong.

The current playstyle is not a step forward from trinity. The current playstyle is the lack of any party organisation whatsoever when it comes to builds.

All builds are “viable” but some are so much worse than others that nobody cares to play them.

Even more than this, you seem to be very concerned about glasscanon builds, as if it were a matter of personal taste and not of objectivity. I am going to ask you to theorize, to imagine a scenario where condition stack tank builds were the superior choice in game. Let’s imagine that dungeons become more difficult to nukers due to high AoE conditions or other attacks that overwhelm the dodge and block abilities, and the absolute most efficient way of doing dungeons becomes being a tank who stacks conditions on NPCs until they die. This is not the case now, but I am simply asking you to imagine that scenario.

What problem would you have with that? See, there would be no trinity there. Would it upset you that glasscanons wouldn’t be as good? If so, it proves this is a personal issue of yours, and not a rational concern over the game’s balance.

I say this, because I read someone else say earlier that even after HoT, he wants all classes to converge to nuker builds. And I can’t get what your obsession with nukers is – it’s clearly not a rational desire for game balance.

Glass cannon is harder to play than tank as it requires the use of active defenses (positioning, dodges, reflects, blinds, blocks) rather than passive defenses (toughness, vitality) to survive. With an action combat system, it would be lame if instead of having to get good at active defenses, the best thing someone can do is put on tanky gear and survive a lot of hits. I do believe content needs to be harder so people who aren’t that good yet can’t play effectively in glass, but as players get better, they should be trading in tanky gear for glassy ones.

Good players surviving on active defenses is the best fit for an action combat system.

Balance between gear sets should not be a priority or even considered really. Existing isn’t a reason why something should be in the meta.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Even more than this, you seem to be very concerned about glasscanon builds, as if it were a matter of personal taste and not of objectivity. I am going to ask you to theorize, to imagine a scenario where condition stack tank builds were the superior choice in game. Let’s imagine that dungeons become more difficult to nukers due to high AoE conditions or other attacks that overwhelm the dodge and block abilities, and the absolute most efficient way of doing dungeons becomes being a tank who stacks conditions on NPCs until they die. This is not the case now, but I am simply asking you to imagine that scenario.

What problem would you have with that? See, there would be no trinity there. Would it upset you that glasscanons wouldn’t be as good? If so, it proves this is a personal issue of yours, and not a rational concern over the game’s balance.

I say this, because I read someone else say earlier that even after HoT, he wants all classes to converge to nuker builds. And I can’t get what your obsession with nukers is – it’s clearly not a rational desire for game balance.

No problems, but your analysis of what would happen is flawed.

Here is what would actually happen if they implemented the change you suggested:

- very skilled players would find ways to maximize damage yet again
-> result, things stay unchanged, less skilled players have a harder time. This is already the case, many people are running berserker’s and are not skilled enough to use that gear set. This is a player issue, not something the devs could ever fix. As was mentioned earlier, if you do it properly (and the way it worked for the first year.) People start of with more defensive sets and work their way to maximum damage. The fact that most people skip this process is simply because they want to be part of the meta instantly.

- okay so we make the content so hard that even the most skilled players can’t finished the content in plain berserkers (or we implement arbitrary limitations like in the tequatle fight where Zerkers does not provide max damage)

-> result: there is a new “best in slot” just for this content. you are now required to carry around 2 sets of gear. more casual players have litterally no chance of ever completing the content since it’s been made so hard that they need not even try. (see Tripple trouble worm)

In no result would there be more viable sets at the same time. In no situation would the game benefit from this. The way defences are setup, defensive stats do not matter. It’s that simple. No amount of increasing of damage will change that.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Let’s imagine that dungeons become more difficult to nukers due to high AoE conditions or other attacks that overwhelm the dodge and block abilities, and the absolute most efficient way of doing dungeons becomes being a tank who stacks conditions on NPCs until they die. This is not the case now, but I am simply asking you to imagine that scenario.

What problem would you have with that? See, there would be no trinity there. Would it upset you that glasscanons wouldn’t be as good? If so, it proves this is a personal issue of yours, and not a rational concern over the game’s balance.

The only way to make a tanky build the most efficient one for beating something is making mathematically inviable to use anything less tankier.
On top of this, there’ll still be some tankier build performing better than its even more tankier counterparts.

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But I don’t get it, if there is a dodge button why do I need a tank? You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

That is more along the lines of bad boss design.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But I don’t get it, if there is a dodge button why do I need a tank? You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

That is more along the lines of bad boss design.

So afking with tank gear isn’t? At least when I am crippling and running around I need to maintain my swiftness, cripple and stay in perfect max melee positioing.

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

Lol thats a thing in EVE online. Called speed tanking. You fly around so fast that enemy can’t hit you.

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But I don’t get it, if there is a dodge button why do I need a tank? You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

That is more along the lines of bad boss design.

So afking with tank gear isn’t? At least when I am crippling and running around I need to maintain my swiftness, cripple and stay in perfect max melee positioing.

I restate my previous point that it is a design flaw for someone to afk tank a boss or one person to endlessly CC while whittling it down. I dont know what games you have been playing but tanks usually need a healer to stay alive and dps to efficiently down it.
Mobility is not the problem since GW2’s is slower than most games but I admire your thinking outside the box though.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But I don’t get it, if there is a dodge button why do I need a tank? You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

That is more along the lines of bad boss design.

So afking with tank gear isn’t? At least when I am crippling and running around I need to maintain my swiftness, cripple and stay in perfect max melee positioing.

I restate my previous point that it is a design flaw for someone to afk tank a boss or one person to endlessly CC while whittling it down. I dont know what games you have been playing but tanks usually need a healer to stay alive and dps to efficiently down it.
Mobility is not the problem since GW2’s is slower than most games but I admire your thinking outside the box though.

So your complaint is that this game has no need for tanks and healers?

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Um lets be real here guys. Running is the meta, not DPS. What we need to do is nerf mobility so no one can speed run anymore! PS. its called speed run for a reason, otherwise it be speed killing dungeons or speed killing map completion.

The goal is to create team variety with the armor sets; not make the game slower.

But I don’t get it, if there is a dodge button why do I need a tank? You know there is a cool way of tanking? You cripple the boss, get swiftness and just run circles around him. Another reason to nerf mobility!

That is more along the lines of bad boss design.

So afking with tank gear isn’t? At least when I am crippling and running around I need to maintain my swiftness, cripple and stay in perfect max melee positioing.

I restate my previous point that it is a design flaw for someone to afk tank a boss or one person to endlessly CC while whittling it down. I dont know what games you have been playing but tanks usually need a healer to stay alive and dps to efficiently down it.
Mobility is not the problem since GW2’s is slower than most games but I admire your thinking outside the box though.

So your complaint is that this game has no need for tanks and healers?

It honestly doesn’t. The game suffers because of certain flaws and inconsistencies within certain mechanics themselves; mobility not being one of them.

care to elaborate?

PS mobility is a huge problem. Believe it or not more pugs don’t know that it exists and should they ever give swiftness and use running skills you can literally save HOURS!!! map clearing and minutes in dungeons. I am the type of player that doesn’t like mobility skills and honestly I feel its unfair that these guys can map clear and dungeon clear so much faster than how I like the game to be played.

Tolmos.8395:

Whether the first time in a dungeon, or the 100th time in a dungeon, Zerker is hands down the only way to go. Familiarity with the dungeon seems to be wholly irrelevant to that.

That’s so wrong. Get it you don’t like the zerker meta but don’t twist reality like that please.

dlonie.6547:

There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

What you’re missing is that a build is more than gear stats. All zerks aren’t running the same build, there are multiple “meta” trait and skill configurations used for different PvE encounters. Just because they aren’t changing their gear doesn’t mean they’re all playing the same way.

You are talking to a deaf person.

EcoRI.9273:

PS mobility is a huge problem. Believe it or not more pugs don’t know that it exists and should they ever give swiftness and use running skills you can literally save HOURS!!! map clearing and minutes in dungeons. I am the type of player that doesn’t like mobility skills and honestly I feel its unfair that these guys can map clear and dungeon clear so much faster than how I like the game to be played.

This swiftness meta sounds even worse than the stacking exploit.

Guess I’m off to start a new thread in order to get it nerfed…

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

On a little tangent here, it’s really not too difficult to find players that don’t care about speedruns or min-maxing. I don’t have a teenager’s reflexes or twitch anymore, and usually mix it up with some defensive gear to help absorb the hits that I will occasionally take. Fortunately I’ve ran with plenty of other players that feel the same way and don’t care about running with gear that allows a more relaxed experience, despite being mathematically inferior.

Reminds me of this.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

cthaeh.2168:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

Guest.8245:

What reasons did I miss for zerker only being fine?

Short answer:

Stale content is the problem, not that we’ve figured out how to do it without passive defenses after doing the exact same fights for going-on 3 years.

That’s a terrible point actually.

WoW has existed for more than 10 years and it has always had tanks, healers and nukers in every dungeon, even the ones that are old.

LoL/DoTa, just to mention an example that isn’t a MMORPG, have been going for a long time as well, and it is unthinkable to have a full nuker party. Suggesting so would get you ridiculed.

The zerk meta exists because of poor gear balancing. If tanks were a lot tankier and had a taunt (while doing much less damage), and if monsters did much more damage, it would force team setups to have tanks and nukers.

Maybe you should post this on the WoW or LoL forums where it would actually be relevant.

You just didn’t understand. You are saying that the reason the glasscanon meta exists in GW2 is because people know the game too well. I’m saying that your statement is false. To prove that it’s false, I’m mentionning WoW and LoL as examples, where people know the dungeons/maps/gameplay by perfection and still use standard nuker/tank/healer setups.

If your logic that knowing the game by perfection led to glasscannon builds held any ground, then by now all MMOs that are older than GW2 should have glasscannon only metas, but we both know that is wrong.

What you don’t understand is that the reason the glass cannon meta exists is because the game was designed in such a way that this would be possible.
You don’t get to compare our PVE to DoTA – I play that too – it is pvp – we don’t have a zerker meta in PVP now do we?
I don’t remember full zerker being the meta in WvW or sPVP.

Please don’t come at us with ridiculous arguments such as comparing a PVP game with another game’s PVE and calling your comparison right.

WoW was built from the ground up on a trinity system. You can’t play wow without that because the game design requires it.

The game design in GW2 does not require that and shouldn’t. IF people wanted to play a wow-like system they would be playing wow.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vargamonth.2047:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

If your logic that knowing the game by perfection led to glasscannon builds held any ground, then by now all MMOs that are older than GW2 should have glasscannon only metas, but we both know that is wrong.

Most of those MMOs which are older than GW2 do not feature action based combat and active defenses.

I call bullkitten on this. Both defensive, instacast abilities like blocking, or any CC abilities like knockdowns, knockbacks, taunts and stuns have been around long before GW2. Unless you are talking about Runescape which is entirely based on probabilities (and here we are talking about a 14-15 year old browser game) most MMOs of today have mechanics similar to GW2.

Some people are saying that this game doesn’t have a hard trinity. It doesn’t, but there’s 25 gear sets in game. There clearly are mechanics in this game that allow condition builds, tank builds, healing builds, nuker builds, CC builds, etc etc. The problems are:

- Condition damage isn’t significant enough. A condition build should be doing 0 damage with autoattacks, and tons of damage with conditions, in order to snowball and defeat anything that allows the battle to go on for too long.

- HP stacking isn’t significant enough. A full Nomad set should make you unable to kill anything and unable to be killed at all by a single player or NPC. Instead, it makes you unable to kill anything and able to be killed by anything.

- Nukers have way too much survivability. People in Berzerker gear should be going down in 1 shot to champions unless buffed by guardians or other healers.

- Healers/buffers should provide tons more healing, along with party buffs that increase damage and armor. Having 1 support in a team should be more useful than having a damage dealer. If for example a support class is giving a 30% damage increase to everyone in the party, he’s actually creating more damage than a nuker alone would.

The armor sets have been added to GW2 for a good reason, but they were poorly designed. This game is kind of like good old Pokemon: you can build whatever you want and should be able to play the game in whatever style you want. 20+ year old Pokemon got it right and made toxic stack teams work, made tank/outlast teams work, made nuker teams work, there is no reason that 2012 GW2 can’t do the same.

Please understand that what you describe here is NOT the system GW2 was designed to be and will never be a part of the game.

GW2 is designed as a no-trinity – no role requirement game.

Also while we’re at it it might do you some good to also understand that in this game your ROLE is not dependent on your GEAR.

Example : A full berserker warrior running phalanx strength is an OFFENSIVE PARTY BUFFER SUPPORT TYPE and not a “FULL DPS”. He does not have full dps traits. He sacrifices individual dps in order to buff his party. This is called support.

Except you want your support to be what you imagine yourself role playing as.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

Well at least there is a counter to berserker which is you die easier if you mess up and then you have to restart, but look at mobility! There is no counter play, its all pros and no cons. I think they should introduce a chance to slip while running with swiftness or using a movement skill like the warrior rush attack. I mean they did that in smash brothers when wave dashing too much! So it must be good!

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Arcadio.6875:

The problem is the lack of new content to challenge people. If new challenging content is released, players would have a hard time surviving in zerker gear until they learn the encounters.

I disagree entirely. First, seeing how much some people play the game, any new content is bound to get “old” very fast. Secondly, glasscannon runs don’t need to be the ultimate solution everytime.

With your logic, any new dungeon will be hard for the first week, and then we’ll be stuck with the zerk meta again for another year.

It seems Anet clearly designed this game in such a way that all gameplay styles should come to shine at some point. If you are chosing to build Shaman gear, you should in theory have an area in PvE where your Shaman setup is the ultimate best (this is in theory only, not in practice at the moment). There should be a dungeon or other instance where people put a party in LFG and say “we need someone using Shaman gear for this”. I can’t see any other reason for why there are 25 sets.

The way it is now is the stagnating, boring way you described: there’s a few sets there to learn dungeons with, and ultimately all playstyles converge to zerk if they want efficiency. This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

This is both wrong and false.
The core premise of GW2 is that any party composition in any gear should be able to complete content without much trouble.

The core concept of the “no trinity-gw2” is that you absolutely do not need someone in X gear for a certain piece of content.

This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

Nobody cares about that. People are playing for efficiency – they are FARMING the dungeons not role playing in them.

Of course they’ll use the gear set that’s the most effective.
But this does not mean that other gear sets are unable to complete the content so where’s the problem then?

Diversity is lacking because people don’t care about diversity – they care about their gold. I know I do.
If I cared about diversity there is nothing stopping me from doing any dungeon in any gear and enjoying it.

Just because people don’t enjoy what you enjoy doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Since we are using other games as examples, soul calibur characters have like 8-10 optimal moves out of there whole movelist. Having a small group of optimal stuff in any game isn’t new so I don’t see what’s wrong with our meta

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

I mean they did that in smash brothers! So it must be good!

Now your just trolling.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

By “0 damage from autoattacks,” “unkillable tanks” “nukers going down in 1 shot”, I obviously meant these as hyperboles, exagerations.

When you’ve read these forums as much as I have, you learn not to assume people are exaggerating when they say such thing

As is, nomads/clerics builds are OP defensively. Look around on youtube — there are AFK spider queen solos by cleric eles, nomad warriors solo facetanking Lupi, cleric guardians steamrolling Arah without their dodge keys unbound, etc etc.

The rest of what you said, well, you just made a list there of everything that is wrong with this game – healers not being needed due to each class having too much heal burst, full supportive classes not being useful due to warriors being able to both support and do damage, and so on and so forth.

In the end it just proves that the trinity concept really isn’t something you can escape from if you want a balanced game. It doesn’t have to be a trinity, with enough creativity you can probably get at least 5 or more essential roles. Ideally, there would be 25 “essential”, playable roles with each gear set (that’s never going to happen, but one can only dream of). There should be more than just one setup that allowed extremely fast dungeon clearing. Finishing a dungeon with 5 of the same builds should be impossible, especially with glasscannon builds.

It sounds like you really like the trinity and want it back. We’ll never see eye-to-eye on this, so I’ll leave you be.

But since ArenaNet will not be introducing a trinity or hard-role system, it does sound like this really isn’t the game for you. Food for thought.

Why do you hate the trinity gameplay? And how do you know where this game is going after HoT? More than once have I heard that they are trying to bring changes to the current zerk problem. If they balance classes and make glasscanon runs impossible, and if several builds are viable and required for dungeons, it will inevitably lead to the trinity setup. There’s no other alternative. It’s either you can run dungeons with 5 people using the same build, or you can’t and are forced to rely on several builds. If you see any grey zone there then feel free to point it out, because I myself am not seeing it at all.

No offense but If you’re so set on playing a trinity game I would like yo ask you why did you choose this one? When they Specifically advertised it as no trinity. Why not a trinity game?

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

I mean they did that in smash brothers! So it must be good!

Now your just trolling.

Wait why is it that when I suggest a solution to something that is clearly broken, I am trolling? But not when you suggest something to fix berserker? I am supporting my claim with what other games did to solve mobility issues just like how everyone else is supporting trinity with other games as well.

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

Well at least there is a counter to berserker which is you die easier if you mess up and then you have to restart, but look at mobility! There is no counter play, its all pros and no cons. I think they should introduce a chance to slip while running with swiftness or using a movement skill like the warrior rush attack. I mean they did that in smash brothers when wave dashing too much! So it must be good!

This is interesting…I think they’d need to include some counter-play, though.

Remember that Southsun Racing mini-game? That always made me think of Mario Cart. Since this game is like Mario Cart and Mario Cart had the “Banana Peel” power-up, but they gave players “Whistle” abilities so that skilled play still allowed sufficiently experienced players the ability to maintain control after encountering the slippery object.

Maybe they could tie “Whistle” into the healing skill? If you notice the tell for a slip coming up, you could pop your heal to “Whistle” and maintain control of your character. It would add a disincentive to skipping, since there would be a chance to roll a “Slip”, requiring to player to either:

a) aggro nearby mobs. Slipping should drastically increase aggro radius, obviously, or
b) “Whistle”, leaving the player without a heal for any upcoming fighting.

This way, zerk groups wouldn’t skip all of the mobs in the dungeons.

I love it. Makes sense.

Harper.4173:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Arcadio.6875:

The problem is the lack of new content to challenge people. If new challenging content is released, players would have a hard time surviving in zerker gear until they learn the encounters.

I disagree entirely. First, seeing how much some people play the game, any new content is bound to get “old” very fast. Secondly, glasscannon runs don’t need to be the ultimate solution everytime.

With your logic, any new dungeon will be hard for the first week, and then we’ll be stuck with the zerk meta again for another year.

It seems Anet clearly designed this game in such a way that all gameplay styles should come to shine at some point. If you are chosing to build Shaman gear, you should in theory have an area in PvE where your Shaman setup is the ultimate best (this is in theory only, not in practice at the moment). There should be a dungeon or other instance where people put a party in LFG and say “we need someone using Shaman gear for this”. I can’t see any other reason for why there are 25 sets.

The way it is now is the stagnating, boring way you described: there’s a few sets there to learn dungeons with, and ultimately all playstyles converge to zerk if they want efficiency. This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

This is both wrong and false.
The core premise of GW2 is that any party composition in any gear should be able to complete content without much trouble.

The core concept of the “no trinity-gw2” is that you absolutely do not need someone in X gear for a certain piece of content.

This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

Nobody cares about that. People are playing for efficiency – they are FARMING the dungeons not role playing in them.

Of course they’ll use the gear set that’s the most effective.
But this does not mean that other gear sets are unable to complete the content so where’s the problem then?

Diversity is lacking because people don’t care about diversity – they care about their gold. I know I do.
If I cared about diversity there is nothing stopping me from doing any dungeon in any gear and enjoying it.

Just because people don’t enjoy what you enjoy doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Why not care about both…

The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

care to elaborate?

GW2 in a nutshell is actually a trinity system compressed into each class. This trinity comes in the form of Control, Support and Damage and unfortunately Damage takes all the glory because it is the only one that is needed; especially zerker. The reason for this is because Control is useless with defiance and a few niche support skills are all that is needed to ward off incoming damage while the party nukes everything down; the main culprits being reflection based skills and aegis. I also dislike the condition and boon system kitten much more could be done with it.

I’ve already stated how bad boss design is so I’ll leave it at that.

For your mobility issue I feel its not really a direct problem but another indirect. In most MMOs dungeon mobs will follow you until either they die or you do and I see too many people exploiting stealth.

I mean they did that in smash brothers! So it must be good!

Now your just trolling.

Wait why is it that when I suggest a solution to something that is clearly broken, I am trolling? But not when you suggest something to fix berserker? I am supporting my claim with what other games did to solve mobility issues just like how everyone else is supporting trinity with other games as well.

First, they are two completely different games and Second, giving swiftness a chance to knock down would be a drastic punishment on players. The game would feel so slow that I would feel faster sitting in my computer chair.

Harper.4173:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vargamonth.2047:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

If your logic that knowing the game by perfection led to glasscannon builds held any ground, then by now all MMOs that are older than GW2 should have glasscannon only metas, but we both know that is wrong.

Most of those MMOs which are older than GW2 do not feature action based combat and active defenses.

I call bullkitten on this. Both defensive, instacast abilities like blocking, or any CC abilities like knockdowns, knockbacks, taunts and stuns have been around long before GW2. Unless you are talking about Runescape which is entirely based on probabilities (and here we are talking about a 14-15 year old browser game) most MMOs of today have mechanics similar to GW2.

Some people are saying that this game doesn’t have a hard trinity. It doesn’t, but there’s 25 gear sets in game. There clearly are mechanics in this game that allow condition builds, tank builds, healing builds, nuker builds, CC builds, etc etc. The problems are:

- Condition damage isn’t significant enough. A condition build should be doing 0 damage with autoattacks, and tons of damage with conditions, in order to snowball and defeat anything that allows the battle to go on for too long.

- HP stacking isn’t significant enough. A full Nomad set should make you unable to kill anything and unable to be killed at all by a single player or NPC. Instead, it makes you unable to kill anything and able to be killed by anything.

- Nukers have way too much survivability. People in Berzerker gear should be going down in 1 shot to champions unless buffed by guardians or other healers.

- Healers/buffers should provide tons more healing, along with party buffs that increase damage and armor. Having 1 support in a team should be more useful than having a damage dealer. If for example a support class is giving a 30% damage increase to everyone in the party, he’s actually creating more damage than a nuker alone would.

The armor sets have been added to GW2 for a good reason, but they were poorly designed. This game is kind of like good old Pokemon: you can build whatever you want and should be able to play the game in whatever style you want. 20+ year old Pokemon got it right and made toxic stack teams work, made tank/outlast teams work, made nuker teams work, there is no reason that 2012 GW2 can’t do the same.

Please understand that what you describe here is NOT the system GW2 was designed to be and will never be a part of the game.

GW2 is designed as a no-trinity – no role requirement game.

Also while we’re at it it might do you some good to also understand that in this game your ROLE is not dependent on your GEAR.

Example : A full berserker warrior running phalanx strength is an OFFENSIVE PARTY BUFFER SUPPORT TYPE and not a “FULL DPS”. He does not have full dps traits. He sacrifices individual dps in order to buff his party. This is called support.

Except you want your support to be what you imagine yourself role playing as.

And there’s 25 gear choices in game because?…

If there’s only supposed to be one good gear choice then why don’t we have a combined zerk/valk/rabid set for all of PvE? Like we have premade choices for PvP? That way, both beginners and pros can enjoy PvE equally, since everyone has enough HP to survive without skill and enough damage to speedrun dungeons with enough skill.

It’s useless to have Shaman / Apothecary gear in game. Why not have it removed? Are you also going to opinionate on that from your high horse?

Maybe we are just coming to the conclusion that going no-trinity was a mistake all along. It’s not even a WoW thing like you suggested, it’s been there since the dawn of time, even in real life military. Why? Because it’s efficient, and in the case of games it’s fun.

What argument can you possibly make about the trinity system being bad and not belonging in GW2 anyway?

Dromar.1027:

Harper.4173:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Arcadio.6875:

The problem is the lack of new content to challenge people. If new challenging content is released, players would have a hard time surviving in zerker gear until they learn the encounters.

I disagree entirely. First, seeing how much some people play the game, any new content is bound to get “old” very fast. Secondly, glasscannon runs don’t need to be the ultimate solution everytime.

With your logic, any new dungeon will be hard for the first week, and then we’ll be stuck with the zerk meta again for another year.

It seems Anet clearly designed this game in such a way that all gameplay styles should come to shine at some point. If you are chosing to build Shaman gear, you should in theory have an area in PvE where your Shaman setup is the ultimate best (this is in theory only, not in practice at the moment). There should be a dungeon or other instance where people put a party in LFG and say “we need someone using Shaman gear for this”. I can’t see any other reason for why there are 25 sets.

The way it is now is the stagnating, boring way you described: there’s a few sets there to learn dungeons with, and ultimately all playstyles converge to zerk if they want efficiency. This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

This is both wrong and false.
The core premise of GW2 is that any party composition in any gear should be able to complete content without much trouble.

The core concept of the “no trinity-gw2” is that you absolutely do not need someone in X gear for a certain piece of content.

This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

Nobody cares about that. People are playing for efficiency – they are FARMING the dungeons not role playing in them.

Of course they’ll use the gear set that’s the most effective.
But this does not mean that other gear sets are unable to complete the content so where’s the problem then?

Diversity is lacking because people don’t care about diversity – they care about their gold. I know I do.
If I cared about diversity there is nothing stopping me from doing any dungeon in any gear and enjoying it.

Just because people don’t enjoy what you enjoy doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Why not care about both…

The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

Why can’t you just put in an LFG:

“Anyone welcome, RP run”
“No farmers, casual run, non-zerk welcome”
“Full clear, relaxed run. No skipping please”

or something similar and have a good time with like minded players? Harper has made an excellent point — the zerk groups are farmers. You are not farming — why would you want to join them anyway? It’s not going to be fun.

Find non-farmers to run with. Join a guild. Post clear LFGs.

That isn’t a build diversity problem, you’re just outnumbered.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Wait why is it that when I suggest a solution to something that is clearly broken, I am trolling? But not when you suggest something to fix berserker? I am supporting my claim with what other games did to solve mobility issues just like how everyone else is supporting trinity with other games as well.

First, they are two completely different games and Second, giving swiftness a chance to knock down would be a drastic punishment on players. The game would feel so slow that I would feel faster sitting in my computer chair.

Well isn’t gw2 completely different from other MMOs? And can’t the same be said about tanking feeling so slow? Again I just hate the fact that people with mobility skills can literally map clear hours faster than what I can do in Berserker gear with no mobility skills.

These threads…..

And I should add, you’re outnumbered because no one in their right mind wants to RP the same dungeon for three years. Which brings me back to my original point: It’s stale. So it’s hard to find RP groups that will still want to do it. (I’m using the term “RP” very loosely here — I mean anyone who wants to run a homemade build and “experience” the dungeon instead of just farm it…not just full-time RP’rs.)

Farmers, on the other hand, still get the gold, so they keep on a-runnin’.

So you have to look a little harder to find suitable groups, that’s all. Sucks, but trying to take away the farmers fun isn’t the answer. It won’t make it easier to find groups you like, it’d just finally kill off dungeons completely in this game.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Maybe we are just coming to the conclusion that going no-trinity was a mistake all along.

Nope. The problem lies not in the no-trinity approach (which actually didn’t originally mean neither “all dps” nor “whatever is okay”, by the way). It lies with the active combat system not being a good fit for the gear stat system designed. Both things are meant for different games – they just don’t work too well together.

dlonie.6547:

Dromar.1027:

Harper.4173:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Arcadio.6875:

The problem is the lack of new content to challenge people. If new challenging content is released, players would have a hard time surviving in zerker gear until they learn the encounters.

I disagree entirely. First, seeing how much some people play the game, any new content is bound to get “old” very fast. Secondly, glasscannon runs don’t need to be the ultimate solution everytime.

With your logic, any new dungeon will be hard for the first week, and then we’ll be stuck with the zerk meta again for another year.

It seems Anet clearly designed this game in such a way that all gameplay styles should come to shine at some point. If you are chosing to build Shaman gear, you should in theory have an area in PvE where your Shaman setup is the ultimate best (this is in theory only, not in practice at the moment). There should be a dungeon or other instance where people put a party in LFG and say “we need someone using Shaman gear for this”. I can’t see any other reason for why there are 25 sets.

The way it is now is the stagnating, boring way you described: there’s a few sets there to learn dungeons with, and ultimately all playstyles converge to zerk if they want efficiency. This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

This is both wrong and false.
The core premise of GW2 is that any party composition in any gear should be able to complete content without much trouble.

The core concept of the “no trinity-gw2” is that you absolutely do not need someone in X gear for a certain piece of content.

This is bad for diversity in game and it discourages creativity and progress.

Nobody cares about that. People are playing for efficiency – they are FARMING the dungeons not role playing in them.

Of course they’ll use the gear set that’s the most effective.
But this does not mean that other gear sets are unable to complete the content so where’s the problem then?

Diversity is lacking because people don’t care about diversity – they care about their gold. I know I do.
If I cared about diversity there is nothing stopping me from doing any dungeon in any gear and enjoying it.

Just because people don’t enjoy what you enjoy doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Why not care about both…

The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

Why can’t you just put in an LFG:

“Anyone welcome, RP run”
“No farmers, casual run, non-zerk welcome”
“Full clear, relaxed run. No skipping please”

or something similar and have a good time with like minded players? Harper has made an excellent point — the zerk groups are farmers. You are not farming — why would you want to join them anyway? It’s not going to be fun.

Find non-farmers to run with. Join a guild. Post clear LFGs.

That isn’t a build diversity problem, you’re just outnumbered.

When did you ever get the notion I was a RPer? Turns out I zerk farm.

Astralporing.1957:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Maybe we are just coming to the conclusion that going no-trinity was a mistake all along.

Nope. The problem lies not in the no-trinity approach (which actually didn’t originally mean neither “all dps” nor “whatever is okay”, by the way). It lies with the active combat system not being a good fit for the gear stat system designed. Both things are meant for different games – they just don’t work too well together.

The way i see it is the tankier stats allows for the players who are less skilled to be able to complete content. If you look at bloodborne, it is the same thing. You can beat the game without ever leveling up to gain more stats, defensively or offensively. Granted this is incredibly difficult but there are youtube videos of this feat. Now a good percentage of the player base however require more tank traits inorder for them to get more leniency to completing the game. This is what stats offer in the game as well.

Dromar.1027:

EcoRI.9273:

Wait why is it that when I suggest a solution to something that is clearly broken, I am trolling? But not when you suggest something to fix berserker? I am supporting my claim with what other games did to solve mobility issues just like how everyone else is supporting trinity with other games as well.

First, they are two completely different games and Second, giving swiftness a chance to knock down would be a drastic punishment on players. The game would feel so slow that I would feel faster sitting in my computer chair.

But what about my “Whistle” idea? I think you’ll find it satisfactorily resolves any outstanding concerns once a counter is introduced.

dlonie.6547:

And I should add, you’re outnumbered because no one in their right mind wants to RP the same dungeon for three years. Which brings me back to my original point: It’s stale. So it’s hard to find RP groups that will still want to do it. (I’m using the term “RP” very loosely here — I mean anyone who wants to run a homemade build and “experience” the dungeon instead of just farm it…not just full-time RP’rs.)

Farmers, on the other hand, still get the gold, so they keep on a-runnin’.

So you have to look a little harder to find suitable groups, that’s all. Sucks, but trying to take away the farmers fun isn’t the answer. It won’t make it easier to find groups you like, it’d just finally kill off dungeons completely in this game.

I never said I wanted to take away their fun. All can be accomplished with creativity, you just need to think outside the box… well anet does anyway.

Dromar.1027:

When did you ever get the notion I was a RPer? Turns out I zerk farm.

dlonie.6547:

(I’m using the term “RP” very loosely here — I mean anyone who wants to run a homemade build and “experience” the dungeon instead of just farm it…not just full-time RP’rs.)

Should have edited instead of making a new post.

If you zerk farm, then I missed the point of your post:

Dromar.1027:

The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

(emphasis mine)
I took this to mean “Why do I need to have zerk gear to have fun running dungeons?”, but if you enjoy farming dungeons, zerk is your best friend. Perhaps you can clarify for me?