Guild Wars 2

Jockum.1385:

If a fullcleric would do – let say – 90% dmg of a fullzerk, fullcleric would be an option. Healing is atm very helpful in GW2 – but the lost dmg is usually not worth it.

Is this a joke? Ok let’s roll with it, how will you increase the damage of cleric exactly. So right now zerker have 2577 offensive stats for a full ascended gear, zero defensive stats, zero healing stats. A cleric gear will give you 745 offensive stats, 745 defensive stats and 1087 healing stats.

So who cleric reach 90% of the damage of a zerker gear?

- You boost the power to 2300? So cleric have 2300 power, 1087 healing power and 745 toughness? While Zerker stay the same?

- You give cleric 1087 healing power, 978 power, 670 precision, 670 ferocity, 745 toughness?

- You nerf Zerker but don’t touch cleric?

- You invent a new overpowered offensive stats to replace the power in the cleric gear?

- A rune with 90% of healing power converted into power WHAT. These kind of rune work in the 7% not 90%.

This is just a joke right. You can be that….

Boro.7359:

Well, if we stack aegis, we could might as well stack blind, and if one class can’t stack one then maybe they can stack the other, so perhaps that can help alleviate the issue.

Stacking aegis is a terrible idea. The goal behind aegis is to time it well. You don’t want to waste it on a small attack that save you 1k of hp, you want to keep it and time it well on the big attack that will save you 10k of hp. If you can stack them, there is no skillz needed.

But I like the idea of skilled healing skill. Healing of block, small ground targeting healing skill (with a target not bigger than 100-200 range), maybe directional healing, stuff like that. But it doesn’t change the fact that active defense is superior than healing AND doesn’t need stats from gear. 1 skill can block a 10K attack, while you probably will never heal for that much with 1 skill and you need to sacrifice much dps to get that active defense, while you gonna need to sacrifice a big portion of your dps to get that high heal.

Doing anything directly to the armor sets isn’t the answer. So far Anet has tried to balance things through traits which is on the right path but they need to think outside the box. I always thought linking the boons to certain stats would be a great idea if done right. Plus some boons are OP.

I’ve always found it odd that only damaging conditions are effected by your stats, but other conditions and boons are not. What if more conditions and boons were adjusted based on your stats? Maybe this could be a way to increase the effectiveness of defensive stats. Some examples to demonstrate what I mean:

Vulnerablility = Starts at +1% per stack, increases to +2% per stack based on points in toughness.
Might = Starts at +15 power and condition damage, increases to +30 power and condition damage based on points in vitality.
Protection = Starts at 20% damage reduction, increases to 33% damage reduction based on points in healing power.

Things like aegis, blind, immobilize, cripple, etc would remain unchanged, but the above might help to make defensive stats more useful.

Berserker builds are able to increase their defense by using active abilities, such as protection, blocks and dodges, but defensive/supportive builds have a much harder time increasing their damage output the same way. Maybe the answer is to give defensive stats the ability to actively increase their damage, through improved boons and conditions.

Linking anything defensive to might would actually break the game. Defensive builds would overshadow berserker and thus make completing content slower. We dont want to make content slower because that would kitten off a lot of players.

Stats like toughness would also be linked to aegis and protection just because they share the same category of damage mitigation.

Thaddeus.4891:

Boro.7359:

Well, if we stack aegis, we could might as well stack blind, and if one class can’t stack one then maybe they can stack the other, so perhaps that can help alleviate the issue.

Stacking aegis is a terrible idea. The goal behind aegis is to time it well. You don’t want to waste it on a small attack that save you 1k of hp, you want to keep it and time it well on the big attack that will save you 10k of hp. If you can stack them, there is no skillz needed.

But I like the idea of skilled healing skill. Healing of block, small ground targeting healing skill (with a target not bigger than 100-200 range), maybe directional healing, stuff like that. But it doesn’t change the fact that active defense is superior than healing AND doesn’t need stats from gear. 1 skill can block a 10K attack, while you probably will never heal for that much with 1 skill and you need to sacrifice much dps to get that active defense, while you gonna need to sacrifice a big portion of your dps to get that high heal.

Not unmodified aegis mind you, but one that big hits can remove multiples of, and possibly still hit hard enough to reduce your HP quite a bit:

Basically:

• Stacks of aegis.
• Attacks have an aegis removal strength.
• If you have more aegis stacks than the attack’s strength, you are unaffected by the attack.
• Else, you take reduced damage. (let’s say, aegis_removal_strength*10 in % of the damage)

It would still be skill based, and many skills that give one aegis right now could end up giving us 5-10 stacks depending on traits and gear.

Boro.7359:

Harper.4173:

Jockum.1385:

Thaddeus.4891:

Now explain me how because I don’t see it. How can Soldier gear give roughly the same results???

Increase soldiers gears dmg. I suggested that a few pages ago.

I think people want to play different roles. So its not just about gear.
A healer is no option since dmg is more important than healing. If a fullcleric would do – let say – 90% dmg of a fullzerk, fullcleric would be an option. Healing is atm very helpful in GW2 – but the lost dmg is usually not worth it.

If I did no misstakes a fullberserk got roughly twice the effective power of a fullcleric. Thats a huge difference. To bring an example: a rune which turns 90% of healing power into power would reduce the dmg gap. If I did no misstakes it would result in ~85% dmg of a fullzerk. So healingbuilds or tanky equip would become better and are more welcome. Most PUGs don’t care about 10% dmg – potions, buffood which nobody uses;)

GW2 should be compared to hack’n slays, they got a similar gameplay.
Hack’n Slay healers do dmg, there is no trinity or fullhealer in (most?) hack’n slays since everyone needs to bring dmg. GW2 is the same, you don’t want to sacrifice huge amounts of dmg for being a bit more tanky or get better heals. Most bad groups got not enough dmg which causes trouble.

So basically make it easier for people because if the damage of let’s say healy/tanky gear is increased you’re basically dealing a lot more damage while still having the benefit of a lot more healing and tankiness than a berserker player.

You’re asking to be rewarded more for less active and less skilled play.

Also another mistake you make is thinking GW2 has or should have a healer.
It does not and should not – each person has his own healing skill so a healing archetype is not needed.

If you’re healing (outside of a few niche situations) you’re not doing anybody any good since you’re doing something that is redundant. I already have my OWN healing skill and can manage my own HP.

So instead of doing something useful you’re just doing what I’m already doing by myself – which is not needed.

-Not at all if healing is made to be part of the “Skilled Play”. Defiant Stance is one such a healing skill (sort of Mark of Protection from GW1) A Protector’s Strike that healed on block instead of damaging would be similar.
-Skilled healing spells, along with increased mob attack frequency, could push a more defensive meta.
-Tying blocks, blinds, controls, and interrupts to stats could also force a shift towards a balanced approach. In an example system, a boss would gain a certain amount of defiance when using an attack that needs to be broken through before interrupting it. Higher interrupt strength can help in that. To compensate, a boss doesn’t gain defiance upon that interrupt. (only when idle) Aegis could be stacked (higher support power characters could apply more of them), but bosses could burn through stacks, but lose a percentage of damage for each level of aegis removed.
-As a quick challenge: find the healer in the picture below

I get what you’re saying but such a layered complexity of combat I doubt would sit well with the average casual player the game is marketed towards.

You could do a million other things to make combat more dynamic, more complex and more in-depth even without a healer archetype – but they’ve stayed away from it and I realize why – the player base – most of them wouldn’t cut it.

As I said in another thread long ago it’s all about risk vs reward:

“Why do everyone play Zerk in pve, because the risk is nonexistent, and we will have the same problem if they just make another stat combo more efficient.
Instead they can make using offensive stats combo be more risky.

• Avoid uninterrupted dps.
• Have monsters cleave, use Aoe.
• Make them apply conditions, especially poison, weakness and chill.
• Introduce multiphased encounters.
• Diversify the pve experience: zerker might be the best for killing but what about defending points/pnj, playing a large scale battle?
• Make generating high stack/duration of powerfull offensive/defensive boons only possible to builds/skills crafted around this kind of support (short duration-> everyone, long durations->specialized builds)."

Cyninja.2954:

It becomes a problem when the new players jump the process of understanding why specific gear and skills get chosen. When a big part of the enjoyment of discovery is taken from players.
Lack of understanding leads to exactly these kind of topics where people try to find supperficial solutions to complex problems not actually understanding the core concepts of the game and its mechanics.

I disagree – I find no joy in reinventing the wheel meta-wise whenever I start a new game. I don’t enjoy hitting my head against every wall until I figure out the way – especially if others have already done so.

Cyninja.2954:

It becomes a problem when the new players jump the process of understanding why specific gear and skills get chosen. When a big part of the enjoyment of discovery is taken from players.

And yet, that’s exactly what happens in every MMO out there, unless the new player can find friends, other new players or a guild that will support them going through the new experience without offering advice. Is there any MMO that has hard content in which the strategies for hard dungeons and raids are not figured out, published and which players do not then expect random group joiners to know what they’re doing?

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Harper.4173:

So basically make it easier for people because if the damage of let’s say healy/tanky gear is increased you’re basically dealing a lot more damage while still having the benefit of a lot more healing and tankiness than a berserker player.

Basically yes, but its a matter of balancing. I’m not lucky with this suggestion, but imho its at least a step into the right direction.
Atm many bosses are more or less melting away making it very easy to kill them – you are even able to skip bossmechanics or reduce them significantly.
As an example: most groups get into trouble when pulling holos to clockwork in aether (final boss).
A low dps group has atm to pull those holos like 20 times, while a good group has to pull them 0-2 times. That’s bad gamedesign and makes this boss often more difficult running a low dps setup.
Imho berserk gear should be for really good players an option, not “the best equipment for everyone”. If berserk gives a less signifikant dps advantage, other equipment could compete with berserkers equip. If you’re good at dodging you’re still going for berserk, since it is still top dps.
I’m not asking for a facetank bringing 99% of a glascanons dps.

I’m just saying: look at hack’n slays. Healers are usefull in hack’n slays because they are still doing good dmg. Healers are bad in GW2 because the do too few dmg. Same goes for tanky equip. Thats my point. I know no good solution for this. But thats why healing/tanking is so bad at GW2.

Anet is obviously not able to balance bosses for low dps setups, high dps setups – or low armour and high armour. So it might be a good idea to bring stats closer together.
Since I know many players like running risky and fast runs (i also prefer a smoth run instead of half an hour AC single path run): runes. Anet could add runes turning healing power into dmg, toughnes/vita into dmg – and precision or fero into defence. There still should be a difference to a glascanon. But how much difference? I think 10% is good. In a full buffed group it is still a huge difference (this is why im talking about %, not “500 power difference”). You still get advantage of skillfull coordinated playing: use your skills properly, stack might, bring the correct buffs/defence. This is also part of active gameplay, not only dodging.

(berserk stats summ up: if your running 25 stacks might etc. your berserk gear influences dps you gain via might. If you’re running a fullsoldier instead your dps will be increased less since your crit chance is bad. I’m not sure how many misstakes I’ve done (some, but my point should still be valid), but afaik you end at ~14k effective power as a buffed fullzerk. And 7k as a fullcleric. If 90% healing power would be turned into power, a fullcleric would get to ~10k effective power. Still a huge difference. 4k Power more? I’d still go for fullzerk. But in less coordinated groups the difference would melt – clerics would become an option for those groups.)

Harper.4173:

Also another mistake you make is thinking GW2 has or should have a healer.
It does not and should not – each person has his own healing skill so a healing archetype is not needed.

I’m not asking for a classic fullhealer. I’m asking for a char doing dps and being able to heal. Thats a difference. Trinity has fullhealers which only heal. No trinity games like hack’n slays got classes like clerics which do dmg – and are able to heal. They do both. A fullhealer doesn’t work well in no-trinity games.
Healing is helpful in GW2. Blasting waterfields, using F2 as a guard etc. is clearly an intended healing mechanic – and useful. So its not that healing is too bad in GW2. Its just less important than dmg. Nobody wants to sacrifice dmg to bring healing. If Anet wants to make healing viable: healing without losing (too much) dps.

Many players enjoy running fullzerk. And many want to run a condibuild, want to support their team in a stronger way than possible in GW2 etc. I think both groups can get what they like. Since hack’n slays are able to do so, too. Healing is not needed, you got potions – but its helpful. GW2 Potions are its selfheals.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

How much RL money do they actually get out of you, anyway, just out of interest?

Because, TBH, I don’t really see why anyone, who spends a lot of RL money on the game, would be that bothered about maximising time spent vs gold earned efficiency?

Maybe you could enlighten me?

I think what they are doing now for gear being the main build for power vit etc.. is going to be a step to fixing a berserker meta but you need to also have mobs who have better ai and unavoidable attks. So if your build true zerk full zerk gear and weapons you will have no hp and def even if you build the old def lines (the lines give you no real + to your ability to stay alive like they use to). So adding a “def” test from the mob would force ppl into build some level of def.

The “berserker meta” isn’t a problem in the sense that there’s ALWAYS going to be a meta. Nerf power, and then it becomes “Assassin’s or GTFO.” Nerf crits and buff conditions and then it becomes, “Sinister or GTFO.” Increase enemy attack speed and damage and it becomes “Knight’s or GTFO.”

Now the “berserker meta” IS a bit of a problem in the sense that a small section of the player base has deemed that if you don’t use that particular gear set, you’re a scrub that deserves to be kitten on, even if there’s little content that actually requires all out DPS in order to be successful. But THAT is a player-side problem.

Thaddeus.4891:

Is this a joke? Ok let’s roll with it, how will you increase the damage of cleric exactly.

In addition to my post above:
I think healing is not needed in GW2 which is good. You need dmg in GW2. So if healing has to compete with dmg players will go for dmg. You don’t want to sacrifice too much dmg for something only good but not needed.
So my solution is to take healing out of the competition. I don’t want to change the whole game, so I’m not suggesting thinks like removing healing power, nerf zerk or adding a 4th “help stat” etc.

main stats: power, precision, ferocity
helpful stats: vita, toughness, healing power
You need those main stats. You don’t need helpful stats.
I think you cannot compare those stats directly, as you do. There was magic find as a stat, some time ago. Summing up those stats to compare equip is no indicator for a good or balanced equip. You have to wight those stats. Some are more useful than others. I think power, precision and ferocity are way more needed than healing power.
So how much power would you sacrifice to get 1000 healing power?
Thats the question. I would’t sacrifice 1000 Power. Not even 500. Ofc it depends on your group, in some you didn’t want to sacrifice any dmg, in some a cleric might already be helpful.

- You boost the power to 2300? So cleric have 2300 power, 1087 healing power and 745 toughness? While Zerker stay the same?

Yes. Ofc it needs balancing. Because high Power would be very strong against objects. Or there’s equip with power, precision, healing power. So my suggestion is a very raw one, needs a lot of rework. I don’t think adding precision or ferocity would be a good idea. Clerics got an “active” stat: healing power. Precision triggers traits and sigils which is something a cleric should have to sacrifice since he can do the healing power stuff.
Zerk could get runes too, to make it more tanky.

Thaddeus.4891:

- A rune with 90% of healing power converted into power WHAT. These kind of rune work in the 7% not 90%.

This is why healing power is still bad.

I tried to do some math, i’m sure i’ve done several mistakes (got no idea what im doing). Don’t want to make this post longer than necessary, its just to give a rough impression:
fullcleric ends at 1704 effective power, fullbersi at 2798. To get to 90% dmg of fullbersi I used 0,75*healingpower, cleric would end at 2536 EP.

Adding the same build, dmg mods etc. to both equips I ended at:
cleric 2753 EP,
fullbersi at 4572.
cleric with hp-rune: 4213 EP.
Would be better if cleric would get to 10% difference, so my idea is a bad idea.
Adding might, fury,vuln, potion, banner,buffood:
fullcleric: 6736EP
fullbersi: 13662
fullcleric +hp = 9107.
Even turning 90% into power wouldnt make a huge difference.
I’m not sure why this happens (I hope its not my fault…), maybe because at this low crit dmg precision is less effective. If this is the case it would be perfect for balancing. Advantage of zerk would be: it profits from crit chance increasing stuff (when not capped), from crit dmg stuff etc. A PS-War needs a crit chance, so he won’t go for fullcleric.

If my ~4k EP difference is roughly correct fullberserk would still be the choice No. 1 for coordinated groups. In less cordinated groups (PUGs etc.) which are not using all of those buffs a fullcleric would be nearly as good as a fullzerk. Which is imho good.

My suggestion is not good. Cleric would get too close to fullzerk when running without buffs.
I think someone who knows what hes doing (I’ve got no idea if my math is even close to correct…) should be able to find a formula which would bring a cleric to a – lets say – 500 power difference with build, 4000 power difference with group buffs. So there would be equip for more casual groups – a wide variety, equip doesnt matter too much. Which is good, since most people tend to start on a low level and don’t want to buy perfect equip before even starting dungeons etc.
And there would be still zerk-meta for speed oriented groups. If this works it could add more equip variety on less coordinated groups and keeps zerk-meta at the same time. Might even be able to bring a bit more options into coordinated groups (looking at zealots), when not going for records. “Downside”: “semi-fast-runs” in cleric gear as an easymode would be possible. Ok for me. Ofc, its a question of balancing. I’m not saying that any of my numbers is correct or it “has to be 90% of a fullzerk”. I’m just saying the dmg gap is atm too big to make tanky equip/healing power really useful.
It has it niches, but zerk is standard – I think zerk should be the choice for “exp people” not for “five warrior groups”.

You do realise gear is used in wvw as well right? Besides, the damage gap is not as big as you all claim it is, if everybody plays properly your run will only take a few minutes longer compared to a run in berserker gear.

If you take only gear in comparison (which obviously you would because you argue against a gear, not a build, right?) then fully geared cleric’s has about 50% of fully geared zerker while granting him 33% damage reduction (so the zerker guy receives 50% more damage) as well as 1000+ healing power.

Jockum.1385:

snip

petyr baelish.9675:

You do realise gear is used in wvw as well right? Besides, the damage gap is not as big as you all claim it is, if everybody plays properly your run will only take a few minutes longer compared to a run in berserker gear.

I was about to say the same thing.

Was wvw and pvp at any point a consideration when thinking about giving clerics/healing such a buff?

Here is what would happen, we would get best in slot pvp gear and wvw gear and fights would become unplayable. Classes would need to get nerfed hard as far as healing goes and we would be back at square one.

Seriously, Pve is NOT the only game mode in this game…

WvW/PVP is a another story and needs a seperate balancing. Doing dmg for two is a bit too strong. It results in a zerk party doing dmg like 10 cleric players – Anet can’t balance dungeons for such a wide dps variety and produce content challenging for both side – see current dungeons.
It’s not only about time: Kholer can use his whirl maybe once – or 20 times. Alpha can use his aoes more often etc. Those attacks are not triggered by lost HP. Even your defence like WoR or stabi is stronger when you’re able to kill fast. A low dps group needs maybe a second WoR. Your skills won’t recharge faster when having more vitality.
When you’re downed: good group dps can help you up.
There are many aspects of better dps.

Dmg reduction is often less important than dmg. If you are able to avoid dmg (by dodging or skills) defence stats become more and more useless. Some stats are better than others. You can dodge to avoid dmg, so you need no dmg reduction. But you have to do dmg, you cannot dodge instead of doing dmg.

Most suggestions tend to destroy the current gameplay, this is why i don’t like them. For example there was a suggestion coupling endurance regeneration to defensive stats: fullzerk= nearly no endurance regeneration. Really bad idea.
Or removing the downed system so zerk gets more risky. Also a bad idea.
On the other hand: why having vita or toughness if you can stay alive without them? Power triggers with every attack. Toughness only when you get hit. Anets wants us to avoid hits, even fullsoldiers get heavy hit by some attacks.
Vitality often does nothing. Healers in other games say “every hp about 1 is luxus”. It gives you a bit more time, but you only profit from having more HP if you would’ve died without the extra hp. Shouldn’t happen every fight. Power helps you in each fight killing stuff faster.
So: its very difficult to compare stats. They do different stuff. Some are always needed (power) and stronger, some not. For example: afaik you cannot crit tequatl. So berserk is suboptimal against him. Conditions are not affected by toughness, so knight gear is suboptimal against them. This is why I think there are “main stats”: power, precision, ferocity. And “help stats” which are not needed, only helpful: toughness, vita, healing power. The “main stats” are better than the “help stats”. Not always, but most of the time. Ofc Anet could add many enemies which are immune to crits to make it fair. Also a bad idea….oh wait…condis…those Mordrem Husks….maybe next instanced content is full of direct dmg immune enemies…

Jockum.1385:

WvW/PVP is a another story and needs a seperate balancing. Doing dmg for two is a bit too strong. It results in a zerk party doing dmg like 10 cleric players – Anet can’t balance dungeons for such a wide dps variety and produce content challenging for both side – see current dungeons.
It’s not only about time: Kholer can use his whirl maybe once – or 20 times. Alpha can use his aoes more often etc. Those attacks are not triggered by lost HP. Even your defence like WoR or stabi is stronger when you’re able to kill fast. A low dps group needs maybe a second WoR. Your skills won’t recharge faster when having more vitality.
When you’re downed: good group dps can help you up.
There are many aspects of better dps.

Dmg reduction is often less important than dmg. If you are able to avoid dmg (by dodging or skills) defence stats become more and more useless. Some stats are better than others. You can dodge to avoid dmg, so you need no dmg reduction. But you have to do dmg, you cannot dodge instead of doing dmg.

Most suggestions tend to destroy the current gameplay, this is why i don’t like them. For example there was a suggestion coupling endurance regeneration to defensive stats: fullzerk= nearly no endurance regeneration. Really bad idea.
Or removing the downed system so zerk gets more risky. Also a bad idea.
On the other hand: why having vita or toughness if you can stay alive without them? Power triggers with every attack. Toughness only when you get hit. Anets wants us to avoid hits, even fullsoldiers get heavy hit by some attacks.
Vitality often does nothing. Healers in other games say “every hp about 1 is luxus”. It gives you a bit more time, but you only profit from having more HP if you would’ve died without the extra hp. Shouldn’t happen every fight. Power helps you in each fight killing stuff faster.
So: its very difficult to compare stats. They do different stuff. Some are always needed (power) and stronger, some not. For example: afaik you cannot crit tequatl. So berserk is suboptimal against him. Conditions are not affected by toughness, so knight gear is suboptimal against them. This is why I think there are “main stats”: power, precision, ferocity. And “help stats” which are not needed, only helpful: toughness, vita, healing power. The “main stats” are better than the “help stats”. Not always, but most of the time. Ofc Anet could add many enemies which are immune to crits to make it fair. Also a bad idea….oh wait…condis…those Mordrem Husks….maybe next instanced content is full of direct dmg immune enemies…

So now we are at split stats for pve, pvep and wvw. Okay, mention that in the future since it is a vital part of your argument. Also I highly doubt anet want to go down that path again. They might though, who knows.

You are correct that most suggestions would destroy the current gameplay. Unfortunately yours is no different. The reason is simple, the berserker meta problem, as perceived by some, is not fixable via stats.

The reason for “berserker meta is not fixable via stats” is?

Asking for WvW/PVP Stats is a bit unfair, so I dodged it. Ofc I’m not able to offer a suggestion fixing all balancing problems. If I would I would sell this idea to Anet instead of posting it here.
To give you an easy answer: PVP has it own runes, so no problem here. WvW has scaling, so just scale players stats down.

I don’t think Anet will change anything. They are focussing on open world content, so a build or equip doesn’t really matter. Open World seems to attract more players. Wildstar has some good instaced content afaik but is not successful. So I don’t think we will see many (if any!) instances in the near future. I might be wrong (I hope so), but I’m not optimistic.

The reason it can’t be fixed with stat changes is because the cause of the problem is not the stats. Read through the thread cause I’m honestly to lazy to retipe what has been pointed out mutliple times. Short version is, the berserker meta exists due to how the game is designed. shifting around some stats here and there will not fix the meta problem.

Yes, you might make a different stat combination meta, but that just means a new berserker set developes. The root problem does not get fixed.

Jockum.1385:

Stuff

Berserker is NOT the best equipment for everyone – few average players can do most content in zerker gear.

You’re asking to make a game that is already on the casual-easy side of the spectrum even easier and more accessible to players. On paper that might be fine but the problem is if you make the content too easy nothing will force players to improve.

Setting the difficulty bar too low means that in all future content you are now unable to create more difficult content since the difficulty of content has to be balanced with the player base’s approximate skill level.

Healers are bad in GW2 because the do too few dmg. Same goes for tanky equip. Thats my point. I know no good solution for this. But thats why healing/tanking is so bad at GW2.

No – Healers are bad in GW2 because you do not need someone healing. Regardless of the damage he is doing – the whole concept of the game has you have a mandatory healing skill which if you manage properly along with other defenses you do not need a healer.

That’s why a healer is not needed in GW2 – not because he doesn’t do damage. Same with tanking ( although some things can be tanked).

GW2 doesn’t need tanks – and if you do need some things tanked there are specific skills that offer to fill that niche.
You don’t need to gear out a char to be a tank – a ranger pet or elementalist summon can do the trick – and it was intended this way.

The rune idea you propose won’t work – it would be murder in WvW / PvP. Something that would make some builds catch up to zerker dps in PVE but would push many hybrid or tanky builds over the top in PVP and WvW.

And since Anet have firmly stated they won’t do split balance between PvP and PVE I really don’t see this working.

Please understand this game is more than zerker in dungeons – there are many things to consider when making a suggestion and looking at it superficially doesn’t help.

I’m not asking for a classic fullhealer. I’m asking for a char doing dps and being able to heal. Thats a difference.

Heal? Who? Why? Everyone has their own skill and their own HP to manage. This is not THAT game.

There is healing in the game – it has its roles but please realize that shifting how healing vs damage works in PVE will greatly affect WvW and PvP – and not in good ways.

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Yes he is. Nemesis is a really good player if not the best necro. He always manages to stay alive when the berserkers are wiping the floor with their dead bodies so he knows his kitten really well.

LoL, you have got to be kidding. I am just gonna assume you are a troll like him.

Just because you have a Youtube channel doesn’t mean you are a good player. His entire video is just his opinion on things that he has no idea what he is talking about. You can defend him all you like. It doesn’t make him or you right.

Heads up, anytime someone with low damage joins an inexperienced zerker only group and isn’t bringing any kind of support they cause the zerkers to die. Which is why most inexperienced groups don’t like to carry people.

I could probably carry him through anything, but since he is on my block list, it would never happen.

If he is one of the best necros, wow that class must be in an even worse state than I thought. He certainly did not pick some of his best moments for that clip though.

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Yes he is. Nemesis is a really good player if not the best necro. He always manages to stay alive when the berserkers are wiping the floor with their dead bodies so he knows his kitten really well.

LoL, you have got to be kidding. I am just gonna assume you are a troll like him.

Just because you have a Youtube channel doesn’t mean you are a good player. His entire video is just his opinion on things that he has no idea what he is talking about. You can defend him all you like. It doesn’t make him or you right.

Heads up, anytime someone with low damage joins an inexperienced zerker only group and isn’t bringing any kind of support they cause the zerkers to die. Which is why most inexperienced groups don’t like to carry people.

I could probably carry him through anything, but since he is on my block list, it would never happen.

You can talk all you want, your opinion doesn’t make your right either.

No, its my opinion, but at least I am not making a fool of myself on youtube talking trash about better players. I could point to at least a dozen examples in his video. And joining groups of people to troll them when he knows he don’t meet the requirements they are asking for. Just makes him look worse then he is.

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Yes he is. Nemesis is a really good player if not the best necro. He always manages to stay alive when the berserkers are wiping the floor with their dead bodies so he knows his kitten really well.

LoL, you have got to be kidding. I am just gonna assume you are a troll like him.

Just because you have a Youtube channel doesn’t mean you are a good player. His entire video is just his opinion on things that he has no idea what he is talking about. You can defend him all you like. It doesn’t make him or you right.

Heads up, anytime someone with low damage joins an inexperienced zerker only group and isn’t bringing any kind of support they cause the zerkers to die. Which is why most inexperienced groups don’t like to carry people.

I could probably carry him through anything, but since he is on my block list, it would never happen.

You can talk all you want, your opinion doesn’t make your right either.

Except that in this case his opinion is pretty much a fact. If nemesis even knew what was going on in half the videos he discussed, i’d be surprised. Oh and you can be sure the videos where he does his ‘hero play’ and stays alive are rare occurances he specifically selected.

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Yes he is. Nemesis is a really good player if not the best necro. He always manages to stay alive when the berserkers are wiping the floor with their dead bodies so he knows his kitten really well.

LoL, you have got to be kidding. I am just gonna assume you are a troll like him.

Just because you have a Youtube channel doesn’t mean you are a good player. His entire video is just his opinion on things that he has no idea what he is talking about. You can defend him all you like. It doesn’t make him or you right.

Heads up, anytime someone with low damage joins an inexperienced zerker only group and isn’t bringing any kind of support they cause the zerkers to die. Which is why most inexperienced groups don’t like to carry people.

I could probably carry him through anything, but since he is on my block list, it would never happen.

You can talk all you want, your opinion doesn’t make your right either.

See that’s the beauty of extremes. He does not have to prove he is better than Nemesis for example. All he has to do is prove that he Nemesis is not the be-all-end-all which is quite easy given the amount of footage available (and even better, everyone can come to their own conclusion by watching it).

Is Nemesis a skilled player? Sure he is.

Is he one of the best acround? Hell no.

You on the other hand, claiming Nemesis is “one of the best” now, would have to make sure there is no footage at all poiting to the opposite. A very difficult task if I might add.

chemiclord.3978:

The “berserker meta” isn’t a problem in the sense that there’s ALWAYS going to be a meta.

Of course. It would be better, though, if the differences between meta stat set and the remaining ones were less pronounced.

Jockum.1385:

The reason for “berserker meta is not fixable via stats” is?

“Zerker meta” problem cannot be fixed by simple stat adjustments because it is not caused by stat differences. It is caused by clunky interaction between passive stat boosts and active combat system.

Hidori.3472:

people loudly and emotionally complaining about the zerker meta or suggesting nerfs, just can’t cope with the fact that they are not able to play the same content in zerker gear as others do due to a lack of practice.

Or maybe because we can play the content in zerker and non-zerker gear is why we see the difference and notice the existence of the problem.
The problem is noticeable not because it is harder to play in zerkers, but because they make content way easier.

Boro.7359:

Not unmodified aegis mind you, but one that big hits can remove multiples of, and possibly still hit hard enough to reduce your HP quite a bit:

Basically:

• Stacks of aegis.
• Attacks have an aegis removal strength.
• If you have more aegis stacks than the attack’s strength, you are unaffected by the attack.
• Else, you take reduced damage. (let’s say, aegis_removal_strength*10 in % of the damage)

It would still be skill based, and many skills that give one aegis right now could end up giving us 5-10 stacks depending on traits and gear.

But what would be the point of doing that. This change nothing to the ’’problem’’.

The point? Tying active defenses to stats (let’s say: Aegis skills to toughness, swiftness skills to vitality, and vigor to healing power). That would turn the meta around for sure. Whether it means dedicated roles(3dps2support), or multiple similarly optimal hybrids (bloodspike)* depends on the details and fine tuning..

tl;dr you want forced roles

i’m quite happy with things being the way they are thank you very much

anabasis.7346:

it’s not needed because it’s not a problem.

Tbh…

You’re not wrong.

Berserker is a play style. As is Condi. And, at present, they both have their place in varying aspects of the game. HoT “may” help improve Condi throughout the whole of the game, “may.”

Other gearsets are viable depending on the class in question. Phalanx warriors for example can do quite well in Soldier, Knight & Sentinel gear. As can guardians. Many of GW classes don’t do well in other gear because of the non-trinity design of the game & the class’s core concept. Thieves? Elementalists? Hunters? They’re strikers. They’re classes designed to do damage. Really, so are Mesmers & Necromancers. Engineers (imo) are oddballs

Regardless, I’ve seen non-Dps classes run in non-Dps gear. I’ve seen Dps classes run in non-Dps gear. Now, will these builds win any speed runs? No. But speed running is a niche in the game & is not the game.

As long as a party member is benefiting the party & isn’t total dead weight… Why judge then purely on Zerker? Is Zerker “the meta?” Yes. But do you “have” to play it to ge in groups? Nope. Not at all.

Will HoT change that? Maybe. Hopefully.

Tying active defense to stats won’t change a thing. There is 3 result possible by doing that.

1) You can complete the content with the basic active defense. No need of vigor from healing power, no need of aegis from toughness. Then the meta will be zerker like right now. It will just be a bit harder for bad player to complete all content in zerker.

2) You cannot complete the content with the basic active defense, but you can use trait and sigil to do the job. Then the meta will still be zerker, we just gonna use some defensive trait and sigil.

3) You cannot complete the content with the basic active defense and the best way to go is to take some healing power for most profession (vigor) and toughness for guardian (aegis). We’ll take the minimum needed and take zerker for the rest.

I see zero advantage to any of those situation.

The advantage is that you get to use gear that has a different prefix yet play exactly the same.

you see, having a different prefix makes the game so much more interesting since people enjoy having to carry different stat combinations in their inventory using up slots where you could be putting loot.

it’s really fun.

Cyninja.2954:

Sure they are, but what are we talking about here? Itemization if I’m not mistaken. All those games are very similar in that while GW2 is unique.

Not really. There are a variety of different itemization styles, and GW2 is fairly similar to Warhammer, for example (right down to having an “Agony” equivalent in Warhammer).

Cyninja.2954:

My example was merely to state that going trinity will not solve any problems but instead create way bigger ones.

Sure, but that’s a non-sequitur, because changing itemization doesn’t mean “going trinity”.

Cyninja.2954:

Also SW:TOR being more successful than GW2 is a big funny. Sure it could be more successful but are you really factoring in all the costs like developement and SW:TOR requiring at least 500k subscribers while running a p2p model (according to EA)? Meaning they must have cut back kitten staff for that game since it went f2p.

Tell me, how much unique content or expansions have come out and/or are announced for that game? None, last I recalled. It’s on the known f2p livesupport where some basic content gets added every few months to make people jump through new hoops or they introduce a new item tier where people need to regrind their equipment. Not to mention the Star Wars name holding it up.

They’ve had several expansions and large amounts of new content since F2P, so you recall completely incorrectly!

F2P was Oct. 2012
Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion was April 2013 – pretty big and raised level cap by 5.
Galactic Starfighter was Oct 2013
Shadow of Revan was Dec 2014 – Huge and raised level cap by 5.

It’s a hell of a lot more content they’ve added than GW2 has, so you’re way off. Why did you claim they hadn’t added anything, when they added tons of content? If it’s “on life support”, then GW2 is dead…

I do agree that it cost more to develop than GW2, but initial sales + 2 months of subscriptions when it was at @900k+ subs already covered it’s entire development costs.

Cyninja.2954:

Warhammer shut down because Games Workshop pulled the liscence. Yeah that had nothing to do money or the game spiraling down and being on life support for years. They basically decided they didn’t want their flagship IP at the bottom of the food chain making them no money.

You obviously don’t know much about GW and their attitude to licensing.

They are extremely over-protective of their IPs. Warhammer wasn’t super-successful but it was making a ton of free money for them and EA, and EA really did not want to shut it down.

So based on my very long experience of GW and computer games (these are eejits who thought Warcraft was too crummy to let be Warhammer, back in 1994, bit like refusing to sign the Beatles), I’d say money wasn’t the factor, psychotic obsession with their own IP is. Even with the TT game they’re in a sort of weird death-spiral right now where they’re charging a smaller and smaller market more and more money, instead of trying to rejig their stuff and make more money with a wider audience.

Astralporing.1957:

chemiclord.3978:

The “berserker meta” isn’t a problem in the sense that there’s ALWAYS going to be a meta.

Of course. It would be better, though, if the differences between meta stat set and the remaining ones were less pronounced.

So, are you talking gear’s condi — direct continuum or its survival — damage continuum? These are two separate issues, and that’s all gear provides.

Condi is being changed, and I don’t know enough about the changes to more than suspect it will be somewhat better in large group play, and will likely remain roughly as is in small group play.

As to the other slider, is anyone surprised that damage gear allows one to kill faster than survival gear? So, how are you going to fix that “problem” without requiring a defensive role or breaking PvP/WvW, where there seem to be more complaints about bunkers and Celestial builds than about burst being too high?

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to the other slider, is anyone surprised that damage gear allows one to kill faster than survival gear? So, how are you going to fix that “problem” without requiring a defensive role or breaking PvP/WvW, where there seem to be more complaints about bunkers and Celestial builds than about burst being too high?

Pretty clear it’s the survival-damage slider.

The problem isn’t that damage = killing faster.

The problem is that the game is easier when you just focus on damage (in most dungeons, we can argue about higher fractals and arah separately) than if you focus on survival, and in particular, if you try to balance survival and damage much, you are pretty much bad at both due to the multiplicative effects.

It should be that you start in survival gear, and gradually discard more of it as you get better (I’d suggest), but in current content, that’s not really how it works (imho). You can just straight in with full-damage, all you need to learn to do is Dodge (which is not hard – be surprised if takes more than 6hrs for most people) and have some people generating Aegis etc., and you plow through content better than groups where people are doing stuff like actually wearing +heal. Not just faster – easier. A stacked 5-group of heavy Zerkers, even with kinda crummy players, vaporizes most dungeons (not all, most though – and the ones it doesn’t, people avoid like the plague).

You fix it by changing monsters so that they can’t be burned down by Zerkers so fast. Thus amazing players can still rely on active defences, but more people will actually want non-Zerker setups. No point doing that on old content, but I bet you that’s what HoT is doing because the Mordrem already move in that direction.

The PvP/WvW thing is an issue – that’s why you change monsters, rather than buffing Tou/Vit/Heal.

Eurhetemec.9052:

You fix it by changing monsters so that they can’t be burned down by Zerkers so fast. Thus amazing players can still rely on active defences, but more people will actually want non-Zerker setups. No point doing that on old content, but I bet you that’s what HoT is doing because the Mordrem already move in that direction.

.

Would this not also mean that non-zerker setups would take longer to burn down the same monsters and suffer more rounds of attacks by said monsters?

Unless you are talking about giving zerker a gear-exclusive penalty.

Anything that makes dps burndown take longer across the board won’t change anything except make the fights take longer, unless I’m horribly mistaken. Sure, the zerkers will be treated to more potshots by the enemy, but anyone that knows the mob AI isnt going to let a few more attacks hit them.

Unless damage becomes forced. At which point game design is suffering.

Eurhetemec.9052:

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to the other slider, is anyone surprised that damage gear allows one to kill faster than survival gear? So, how are you going to fix that “problem” without requiring a defensive role or breaking PvP/WvW, where there seem to be more complaints about bunkers and Celestial builds than about burst being too high?

Pretty clear it’s the survival-damage slider.

The problem isn’t that damage = killing faster.

The problem is that the game is easier when you just focus on damage (in most dungeons, we can argue about higher fractals and arah separately) than if you focus on survival, and in particular, if you try to balance survival and damage much, you are pretty much bad at both due to the multiplicative effects.

It should be that you start in survival gear, and gradually discard more of it as you get better (I’d suggest), but in current content, that’s not really how it works (imho). You can just straight in with full-damage, all you need to learn to do is Dodge (which is not hard – be surprised if takes more than 6hrs for most people) and have some people generating Aegis etc., and you plow through content better than groups where people are doing stuff like actually wearing +heal. Not just faster – easier. A stacked 5-group of heavy Zerkers, even with kinda crummy players, vaporizes most dungeons (not all, most though – and the ones it doesn’t, people avoid like the plague).

You fix it by changing monsters so that they can’t be burned down by Zerkers so fast. Thus amazing players can still rely on active defences, but more people will actually want non-Zerker setups. No point doing that on old content, but I bet you that’s what HoT is doing because the Mordrem already move in that direction.

The PvP/WvW thing is an issue – that’s why you change monsters, rather than buffing Tou/Vit/Heal.

I won’t be surprised if that’s the case. I also expect that as players learn the new content, they’ll shift back towards using more glass gear pieces, because that’s exactly what happened with dungeons originally. I also expect that some of the players who currently use all-glass gear and get some survival stats from traits are in for a rough ride unless they add a few survival/hybrid pieces

Even now, a new player in dungeons is still going to go through a learning curve, though s/he can watch videos to prepare. Also, a full group of new players would have just as much trouble with the harder dungeons as they would have at launch, and would probably favor at least some survival or hybrid pieces.

There’s also the issues that the new content does not seem to be aimed at small group play, that non-FotM dungeons will not be touched, and that the meta complaints largely center around LFG exclusion in dungeons. I don’t expect HoT to change the complaints much if at all.

Only solution is to make non zerker content end of story hope hot is more trinity content

Just in case people are missing this:

Any game scenario in which taking damage is optional and Mob AI is predictable will always favor high damage builds, because Mob patterns can be learned and avoided. There is no way to make tank builds or support builds mandatory for players that have learned the game well enough to not rely on those stats.

A glass cannon that is never struck will always outperform an iron peashooter that is never to often struck.

Forcing damage is bad design, forcing mob unpredictability / non telegraph is bad design.

Damage stats provide a passive damage buff with active defense. It seems logical to me to have defensive stats give passive defense with active damage buffs. How that is done in a balanced way I do not know.

They really need to fix this forum bug!

Rin.1046:

Damage stats provide a passive damage buff with active defense. It seems logical to me to have defensive stats give passive defense with active damage buffs. How that is done in a balanced way I do not know.

To begin, I’m not sure what an “active” buff is. In some games with a targeting reticule, some targets have vulnerable areas and targeting them — which takes positioning — provides a critical hit. That’s at least a damage buff that is action-dependent.

Assuming it could be done at all … I’ve seen more than one comparison of a berserker set and a soldier’s set with gear as the only variable. They come pretty close to being able to kill each other in comparable time. Thus, if they were to raise the damage potential of defensive stats (which seems wrong, somehow), they’d probably also have to reduce the passive defense provided by those defensive stats (also seems wrong) in order to maintain similar balance.

uhh… what do I know? I use Assassin mostly; but carry 3 set variations in my inventory and every weapon I can equip.

Having leveled a fresh Ranger to 80 and trying:
1) condition build and bleed/poison weapons and traits.
2) vital/tough build and mele weapons. (all exotic sentinel set)
3) Build base on greatsword/longbow and what gear type got the best results, trying several different full exotic set builds.

What seems to be working best for me is not actually Berserker; but rather Assassin. With over 60% chance to crit, traits/wep-sigs set for bleeds and heal on crit, pet heals on crit, using longbow/great sword, this is the choice I am loving for now.

Plus and minuses.
Plus, works great and allows me to solo big bad bosses.
Minus, have to use dodge, stay out of bad, not much health buffer or mitigation.

So if i utilize my pets well in swapping them so they keep health and agro, watch out for AOE and dodge roll incoming clobber attacks, Greatsword/Longbow/Assassin has been better than Zerker. At first I thought Sentential was the best choice; but wasn’t getting the damage out. Condition build would do well for massive AOE; but then that just always had me swarmed constantly by all the agro and in 1v1 was lacking I felt. Where condition build was tossed out for me, though it does work well, was due to having to choose specific weapons and I preferred the skills granted by Greatsword/Longbow more so for my play style. So after determining that I wanted to use Greatsword/Longbow, I then reviewed the gear and traits. It was then I looked into a crit build and tried Assassin. I have a full set of zerker exotic in my inventory and compared it to the Assassin using Greatsword/Longbow and get better results with Assassin.

Hard hitting damage with 60+% crit (50% is likely enough), 220%+ crit damage and healing when I crit along with bleeds on crit, has worked well for me to the point I liked it way better than zerker.

Conclusion: not everybody is playing zerker, where we referring to a specific class and not a Ranger? With zerker I think i had less than 50% crit and the way the 60% bleed works and 50% heal works on a less than 50% chance to crit, just wasn’t good enough for that to be what I choose for my play style.

As for the various encounters that have immunities, switching gear and builds means having several sets to customize for an encounter. Flexibility then is useful.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Assuming it could be done at all … I’ve seen more than one comparison of a berserker set and a soldier’s set with gear as the only variable. They come pretty close to being able to kill each other in comparable time. Thus, if they were to raise the damage potential of defensive stats (which seems wrong, somehow), they’d probably also have to reduce the passive defense provided by those defensive stats (also seems wrong) in order to maintain similar balance.

I was thinking in terms of fury and might. But you’re right, and like I said, its likely not possible to balance it right.

Part of the problem is that Anet wanted a system where no healer or tank is required, but then offered stat options to build healers and tanks. In PvP and WvW this is not an issue, because those roles can be very useful. But in PvE they are not so much, and they cannot make them more useful without risking the negatives of a trinity.

I wish I had the answer, but unfortunately I don’t. I feel Anet has provided too many options for PvE, but I hope they can remedy this to some degree in the expansion.

I still think having optional parts to events, that can only be done by defensive builds, would be a nice way of making them more useful without making them necessary. Most defensive and supportive players don’t mind if they are not essential, they just want to be more useful and rewarded in events and such.

Rin.1046:

Part of the problem is that Anet wanted a system where no healer or tank is required, but then offered stat options to build healers and tanks. In PvP and WvW this is not an issue, because those roles can be very useful. But in PvE they are not so much, and they cannot make them more useful without risking the negatives of a trinity.

True. They should really have seperated PvP and PvE.

WvW and sPvP can have the same system, but if you mix it with PvE, it’s just messy.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Would this not also mean that non-zerker setups would take longer to burn down the same monsters and suffer more rounds of attacks by said monsters?

No, not necessarily, or rather, not by the same percentage.

We already have stuff in the game like this – monsters which are crit-immune obviously take the same amount of time for Zerkers and Soldiers to kill, for example.

Similarly, monsters with very high toughness do nerf all Power builds, but they mean that Condi builds or mixed builds are slowed down much, much less.

Periods of invulnerability or the like which can only be dealt with by CC or similar and which have to be survived will hit all armour setups equally, but will hurt ones without Tou/Vit/Heal more, because they will need to be better to survive.

Longer fights which involve more small-medium hits, which devalue active defenses (i.e. Dodge/Block) will also devalue Zerker (or any pure offense) more than other setups.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Unless you are talking about giving zerker a gear-exclusive penalty.

I’m not.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Anything that makes dps burndown take longer across the board won’t change anything except make the fights take longer, unless I’m horribly mistaken. Sure, the zerkers will be treated to more potshots by the enemy, but anyone that knows the mob AI isnt going to let a few more attacks hit them.

You are mistaken, though I wouldn’t say it’s horrible. I’ve suggested some methods above, and there are others.

Also, I think you’re mistaken that “anyone who knows the mob AI” is good enough to definitely avoid “a few more attacks”. People who are amazing and in a group that is cooperating perfectly probably will manage it, but I do not believe most Zerker-wearing players are in that skill range or in that kind of optimized and cooperating group. I believe most of them are mindlessly stacking and following fairly obvious rotations, dodging obvious, slow attacks, and letting a combination of very high DPS, Block and the like do most of the rest of the work.

I’m fine if the best players keep wearing Zerker – but I suspect some will find it’s worth their while to wear Condi-based stuff, and may well find using some Tou/Vit/Heal has some more value than it does now.

Or not. We’ll see – but yeah, you totally can hit Zerker-type builds harder than other ones without mindlessly increasing burn time across the board.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I don’t expect HoT to change the complaints much if at all.

If they don’t, HoT has failed to some extent.

Right now, the “endgame” PvE is to a large extent the dungeons, and it’s also the most reliable (if not technically fastest) way to earn cash money.

If that’s still the case in HoT, well, kitten . The “challenging PvE content” should, if they’ve done it right, be both of those things. So the problem will only be if people are excluded from that content for being non-Zerker.