Guild Wars 2

Please see attached graphic for statement.

Fitting considering they threw Horizontal Progression into the Realm of Torment.

i endorse this statement

also /respect that is a very nice collection.

As a desginer I would have the armor styles go from common looking to exotic looking. Making someone look powerful just by the visuals isn’t complicated. You can add effects on the armor such as glow, shiney and magical auras. Other exotic technicques such as embedded jewelery, blades, spikes, skulls. You can make a lvl 1 character look like a warlord.

Calae.1738:

As a desginer I would have the armor styles go from common looking to exotic looking. Making someone look powerful just by the visuals isn’t complicated. You can add effects on the armor such as glow, shiney and magical auras. Other exotic technicques such as embedded jewelery, blades, spikes, skulls. You can make a lvl 1 character look like a warlord.

Actually, the fifth and sixth ones are some of the most prestigious in the game. The others were simply new content which was cheaper.

You can do that here, and also have the option of vertical progression.

Moving on

Now let’s make a visual demonstration for GW2’s progression system!

Legendary
<future expansion equipment>
Ascended
Exotic
Rare
Masterwork
Fine
Basic

Hrm, no, wait. Something must be wrong….it doesn’t look horizontal at all. :/

Well, I guess people should be happy ANet realized they couldn’t pull off the stale GW1 model in 2012 with the large majority of players they inherited from other MMOs. Thinking about it, if they wouldn’t have announced their plans for new gear releases, lord knows how many more players would have left.

One thing GW1 had I’m looking forward to seeing introduced in GW2 are titles that are increasing your defense or power, like the EotN faction titles did. Making them as difficult to max as the Factions allegiance titles, with a nice extra boost(not gamebreaking of course) for the top rank would go a long way towards giving players the feeling that they could always get better and never run out of goals to work for.

ASB.4295:

Well, I guess people should be happy ANet realized they couldn’t pull off the stale GW1 model in 2012 with the large majority of players they inherited from other MMOs. Thinking about it, if they wouldn’t have announced their plans for new gear releases, lord knows how many more players would have left.

Horizontal progression was one of the reasons I bought this game, and that’s also true for a lot of others. It’s uncommon in MMOs. It’s a new and different thing that not a lot of MMOs have. That’s practically the opposite of ‘stale’. If anything, vertical progression is stale, since practically every MMO on the market does it.

That is right the talent from GW1 left and they couldnt pull it off here. We do we get instead is a poor wow clone. The game was ok but not great and the live service is horrific as well as the extra content.
The management on this game has been reflected by the player population and the fact that most have left and wont be coming back.
They have failed to do anything innovative or FUN – grind in 1 place for money and loot. Great I can do that better in other games.
Frankly the comparison with GW2 to TOR is spot on except Bioware has better customer service. That is funny really really funny.
When you advertise and make promised to just throw them under the bus in 2 months time what do you expect Roses?

It’s a beautiful progression. Thanks for the statement—I agree.

Nice graphic. This thread has made it longer than I expected, although it is the weekend.

critickitten.1498:

Now let’s make a visual demonstration for GW2’s progression system!

Legendary
<future expansion equipment>
Ascended
Exotic
Rare
Masterwork
Fine
Basic

Hrm, no, wait. Something must be wrong….it doesn’t look horizontal at all. :/

Could it be someone in a key position at Anet that’s directionally challenged? I once went to an 5 day IT conference and there was this hallway we went down every day that ended in a ‘T’. We went left. But every single day I witnessed a coworker from my company pause and consider which way to go. It was almost a slight moment of panic that came over him. A very bright guy, but humorously directionally challenged. Could it be something this simple?

ASB.4295:

Well, I guess people should be happy ANet realized they couldn’t pull off the stale GW1 model in 2012 with the large majority of players they inherited from other MMOs. Thinking about it, if they wouldn’t have announced their plans for new gear releases, lord knows how many more players would have left.

One thing GW1 had I’m looking forward to seeing introduced in GW2 are titles that are increasing your defense or power, like the EotN faction titles did. Making them as difficult to max as the Factions allegiance titles, with a nice extra boost(not gamebreaking of course) for the top rank would go a long way towards giving players the feeling that they could always get better and never run out of goals to work for.

Sorry, you’ve got your gaming history mixed up. The gear grind treadmill is the stale device that needs to go into the trashbin of gaming history. GW2 brought a unique (if not wholly innovative) take on several aspects of the MMO. The absence of gear grinds was a prominent one and they hit it hard in their pre-release marketing material. They knew there was a segment of the gaming population that recognized that treadmills are called treadmills because they require effort and go nowhere. They were marketing, perhaps, to the sophisticated gamer, the one who recognized the emperor of treadmills wore no clothes. It’s a mystery to many of us why they’ve returned to a gaming element as stale as the gear grind treadmill.

Vol.5241:

You can do that here, and also have the option of vertical progression.

Moving on

Not an option anymore as they have already made the statement that they are going to continue forward with vertical progression. Meaning that if you want to stay competitive, you are going to have to keep grinding out the next tier in order to experience new content in the future.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Vol.5241:

You can do that here, and also have the option of vertical progression.

Moving on

Not an option anymore as they have already made the statement that they are going to continue forward with vertical progression. Meaning that if you want to stay competitive, you are going to have to keep grinding out the next tier in order to experience new content in the future.

QFT. I’m not opposed to grinding. I have a broad definition of it as simply performing actions in pursuit of a desired goal. What I noticed as distinctive with vertical progression was that the grind was not optional. With horizontal progression any ‘grind’ was wholly optional. Because vertical progression progresses (not stops) and progresses by periodically raising the power level, there will come a point at which you must hop on the treadmill to continue playing the game. This is not my idea; this is simply what vertical progression is and does. The reason I oppose vertical progression is that, while it goes nowhere, it is not optional.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Not an option anymore as they have already made the statement that they are going to continue forward with vertical progression. Meaning that if you want to stay competitive, you are going to have to keep grinding out the next tier in order to experience new content in the future.

Can you provide a link please?

If that is the case, I might as well quit now. I wanted to play a NEW game. Not a WoW clone. If I’m going to have to gear grind, I might as well go back to that game as I have 5 years invested in it.

Thanks a lot Anet.

critickitten.1498:

Now let’s make a visual demonstration for GW2’s progression system!

Legendary
<future expansion equipment>
Ascended
Exotic
Rare
Masterwork
Fine
Basic

Hrm, no, wait. Something must be wrong….it doesn’t look horizontal at all. :/

QFT. +1 internets to you sir.

GW2 isn’t a bad game, it’s just misnamed. It is NOT Guild Wars 1’s sequel, and in fact the only thing remotely similar between the two games is the Lore. If they would have called this “World of Tyria”, I think the WoW style gear progression would have gone over a whole lot better.

Move on already, you already had the so called ‘’vertical progression’’…which is white, blue, green, rare, exotic/legendary, the difference was those were just…2easy to get and free, no real effort, ascended has a little more effort but is the same, do you even have an ascended ring? just check the stats increased or in the ascended backpack…

comparing ascended with exotic is the same thing as comparing exotic with rare

the only difference, like i said already, ascended were introduced by not for free items and by just…doing that dungeon (rings) while backpack can be crafted too like if you were to craft a gift for a legendary weapon, unlike exotic and others which had several ways and were practically…free items

Well said!

WoW gear progression doesn’t go over well either. Every wow player I know leaves that game after they get burnt out to go and find a, and I quote: ‘WoW replacement’. They try it and immediately go back to what they are most familiar with. That’s why Tera, TSW and SWTOR are all free to play now. For that exact reason. Horizontal progression was the way to go, I don’t know what made them think they could compete when there are so many good examples of successful games having to alter their business model. It isn’t just the fact that free-to-play is the way of the future. The significance is in WHY they’ve been forced to change. Horizontal progression should have been the priority.

Halanna.3927:

Can you provide a link please?

If that is the case, I might as well quit now. I wanted to play a NEW game. Not a WoW clone. If I’m going to have to gear grind, I might as well go back to that game as I have 5 years invested in it.

Thanks a lot Anet.

Sorry to be the one to let you know, but it’s true. Confirmed in an AMA after the release of Lost Shores.

I already quoted it in another thread but here it is again:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

Yes the response was definitively expected. We did not intent for the information to come out this way. Going back to my previous answer the issue is that we believe in the vertical progression system we had pre launch and that the introduction of an element into the system post launch was going to cause concern but something we believe in.

….

So to the question of vertical progression. So as we know there is already vertical progression in the game and we do intend to keep moving forward with this philosophy.

….

I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

JemL.3501:

Move on already

A lot of folks are doing just that. Moving on to other games, moving on back to WoW, moving on back to GW1… So yea, sound advice but many have already taken it

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

as far as we know there is no vertical progression? as stated by a-net: ascended gear should’ve been there on launch, but yeah we finished it to late

I think a real sad thing about GW2 is that, they say they make the game in horizontal progression, but actually the game is made in a vertical progression. And i freak’n hate it.

Tolmos.8395:

JemL.3501:

Move on already

A lot of folks are doing just that. Moving on to other games, moving on back to WoW, moving on back to GW1… So yea, sound advice but many have already taken it

Explains why the forums are a lot quieter.

critickitten.1498:

Halanna.3927:

Can you provide a link please?

If that is the case, I might as well quit now. I wanted to play a NEW game. Not a WoW clone. If I’m going to have to gear grind, I might as well go back to that game as I have 5 years invested in it.

Thanks a lot Anet.

Sorry to be the one to let you know, but it’s true. Confirmed in an AMA after the release of Lost Shores.

I already quoted it in another thread but here it is again:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

Yes the response was definitively expected. We did not intent for the information to come out this way. Going back to my previous answer the issue is that we believe in the vertical progression system we had pre launch and that the introduction of an element into the system post launch was going to cause concern but something we believe in.

….

So to the question of vertical progression. So as we know there is already vertical progression in the game and we do intend to keep moving forward with this philosophy.

….

I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

I appreciate that they at least admit it after the fact, but it would have been nice if they would have made their players privvy to that BEFORE release, instead of just watching everyone say “Guild Wars 1 had no vertical progression so obviously Guild Wars 2 won’t either!”.

I guess they realized the game wouldn’t sell nearly as well if they let the cat out of the bag early, so they waited until we had all bought the game before telling us. Kind of a cheap tactic. Clever, I suppose, but cheap.

NetherDiver.6079:

Tolmos.8395:

JemL.3501:

Move on already

A lot of folks are doing just that. Moving on to other games, moving on back to WoW, moving on back to GW1… So yea, sound advice but many have already taken it

Explains why the forums are a lot quieter.

In game zones, too >_>

JemL.3501:

Move on already, you already had the so called ‘’vertical progression’’…which is white, blue, green, rare, exotic/legendary, the difference was those were just…2easy to get and free, no real effort, ascended has a little more effort but is the same, do you even have an ascended ring? just check the stats increased or in the ascended backpack…

comparing ascended with exotic is the same thing as comparing exotic with rare

the only difference, like i said already, ascended were introduced by not for free items and by just…doing that dungeon (rings) while backpack can be crafted too like if you were to craft a gift for a legendary weapon, unlike exotic and others which had several ways and were practically…free items

I usually don’t respond to trolls, but have never met a professional one so couldn’t resist. Yes, we all know there is vertical progression in GW2 in terms of the tiers of gear. There is also vertical progression in leveling. We all know that. The distinction with GW2, we believed, was that there was to be no vertical progression from max level gear at max level. That’s the way GW1 was (the point of the thread) and the marketing literature lined up behind that assumption as well. This is the problem we’re having. It’s the perpetual non-optional gear grind treadmill from max level gear at max level. It is distinctively not what GW1 was about and it is distinctively not how they marketed GW2.

CoRtex.2157:

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Thanks for this link! I’ve been following Taugrim through two games prior to this one and have benefited much from his theorycrafting builds and info on basic game mechanics. But, I somehow missed this video. He has great insights on this subject just as he does on others. I do hope the proponents of vertical progression and those who think its presence doesn’t matter will check out this video. Pretty good demonstration of the problems with vertical progression and the fact that it’s nothing basic to gaming that needs to be there for a game to be engaging and successful over time. Hope the folks at Anet give it a view as well. Thanks again, you made my day.

Great statement. Fiercely supported!

My pve character’s skills. For those who didn’t play GW1, the skills with gold borders require finding the boss that uses it and capturing that skill from them. Takes a long time!

Edit: Forum seems to despise my attachment.

wouw.5837:

as far as we know there is no vertical progression? as stated by a-net: ascended gear should’ve been there on launch, but yeah we finished it to late

you believe that? I dont. It was hastily put together to enhance the stickiness factor and keep people playing cause they were all complaining about nothing to do.
They had no intention of adding ascension gear simply because legendaries would have been a little different.

The cheapest and easiest content is the +1 stat but there are significant downfalls to it.
They made the trade off of a gated gear grind vs a proper horizontal progression.
The later taking time and energy to implement and not just a quick skin with +1 stat.

The option was keep losing players and hope of HP later or Insert VP now and loose some and
retain more because there is stickiness in the endgame.

Well it backfired on them and they lost both sets players. On top of that those that had supported
the game because of said promises felt betrayed and stabbed in the back. They have been
making a mess of the fan forums for a while now a la SWG.
I am sure the dungeon was in design for a while but not the gear at all that was sloppily thrown in
without thought of consequences. And it hurt the players and the game and Anets rep.

Their credibility is shot at the moment and a lot of people I know as well as me dont believe what they say anymore. Just look at the latest example -we are working on a scavenger hunt for pres- no no we are not – Lol
Or
We have expansion amount of content coming for free -
But well you wont get expansion like content.
Or
There is no open world loot issue-
We will be revamping and make open world more rewarding.

Add in the condescension from the posts and it really isnt a nice picture.

Raine.1394:

CoRtex.2157:

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Thanks for this link! I’ve been following Taugrim through two games prior to this one and have benefited much from his theorycrafting builds and info on basic game mechanics. But, I somehow missed this video. He has great insights on this subject just as he does on others. I do hope the proponents of vertical progression and those who think its presence doesn’t matter will check out this video. Pretty good demonstration of the problems with vertical progression and the fact that it’s nothing basic to gaming that needs to be there for a game to be engaging and successful over time. Hope the folks at Anet give it a view as well. Thanks again, you made my day.

Well… I figured since you guys brought Taugrim into the conversation… and that video in particular… I would point something out to you.

bluewanders.5297:

Raine.1394:

CoRtex.2157:

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Thanks for this link! I’ve been following Taugrim through two games prior to this one and have benefited much from his theorycrafting builds and info on basic game mechanics. But, I somehow missed this video. He has great insights on this subject just as he does on others. I do hope the proponents of vertical progression and those who think its presence doesn’t matter will check out this video. Pretty good demonstration of the problems with vertical progression and the fact that it’s nothing basic to gaming that needs to be there for a game to be engaging and successful over time. Hope the folks at Anet give it a view as well. Thanks again, you made my day.

Well… I figured since you guys brought Taugrim into the conversation… and that video in particular… I would point something out to you.

Yep, I also notice how that was posted before the November 15th patch, when any illusion of horizontal progression focus in this game was dispatched immediately.

Bet he cried when that patch came out =D That was a nice reminder of the false hopes we all shared, and how much we loved the idea GW2’s horizontal progression focus. Thanks for that!

Tolmos.8395:

bluewanders.5297:

Raine.1394:

CoRtex.2157:

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Thanks for this link! I’ve been following Taugrim through two games prior to this one and have benefited much from his theorycrafting builds and info on basic game mechanics. But, I somehow missed this video. He has great insights on this subject just as he does on others. I do hope the proponents of vertical progression and those who think its presence doesn’t matter will check out this video. Pretty good demonstration of the problems with vertical progression and the fact that it’s nothing basic to gaming that needs to be there for a game to be engaging and successful over time. Hope the folks at Anet give it a view as well. Thanks again, you made my day.

Well… I figured since you guys brought Taugrim into the conversation… and that video in particular… I would point something out to you.

Yep, I also notice how that was posted before the November 15th patch.

Bet he cried when that patch came out =D

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

The game is still (mostly) horizontal progression… and hopefully they will expand on that part of the character progression and keep the low power curve of the vertical.

bluewanders.5297:

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

The game is still (mostly) horizontal progression… and hopefully they will expand on that part of the character progression and keep the low power curve of the vertical.

I’d like to hope so.

On the other hand, we’ve got quotes from the devs saying they believe in vertical progression and will continue with it moving forward. So my optimism is somewhat low.

critickitten.1498:

bluewanders.5297:

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

The game is still (mostly) horizontal progression… and hopefully they will expand on that part of the character progression and keep the low power curve of the vertical.

I’d like to hope so.

On the other hand, we’ve got quotes from the devs saying they believe in vertical progression and will continue with it moving forward. So my optimism is somewhat low.

I still play pretty much every day… love the game. The introduction of fractals and ascended gear didn’t affect me all that much.

But that doesn’t mean they haven’t given me a few “wtf” moments…

I don’t mind ascended so much as long as that isn’t where they game heads in totality… give me more skills like in gw1… give me lots MOAR skills… I want build diversity… lots of it… I want “elite” skills that you have to seek out and earn… I want more skins… give me options, lots and lots of cosmetic options…

We haven’t seen what ascended weapons and armor will do to us yet… if the power curve is low it won’t have that much affect on wvw during the time people are grinding it out (if they bother)… what frightens me more is a level cap increase.

I don’t want a level cap increase… and I know they’ve already said they are open to the idea…

bluewanders.5297:

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

Aha, so it is! I stand corrected.

bluewanders.5297:

I don’t mind ascended so much as long as that isn’t where they game heads in totality… give me more skills like in gw1… give me lots MOAR skills… I want build diversity… lots of it… I want “elite” skills that you have to seek out and earn… I want more skins… give me options, lots and lots of cosmetic options…

I do want more skills, especially in weapons, though I don’t miss the “elite hunt” myself. I’d just like more than one elite option on some characters for underwater combat, please. It’s a tad ridiculous that this is even a thing.

We haven’t seen what ascended weapons and armor will do to us yet… if the power curve is low it won’t have that much affect on wvw during the time people are grinding it out (if they bother)… what frightens me more is a level cap increase.

I don’t want a level cap increase… and I know they’ve already said they are open to the idea…

I suspect that when full sets of Ascended gear come out, they will confirm my hypothesis that the differential will be much higher than people think it is, though I don’t expect my figures to be exact.

As to level cap increases: They’re not merely “open” to the idea, they basically confirmed that they designed the game with the intention of eventually raising the level cap. Colin himself said this in an interview:

The level cap will be 80 on the initial release of the game, and we absolutely would increase it further into the game, probably through expansions is the most likely place we would do that.

As far as I know the only place where vertical progression really runs is Fractals, and WvW.
I can do everything in my exotics and I’ve never touched a Fractal so Agony is not a qualm. Obviously disadvantaged slightly in WvW, and the VP there does annoy me but outside of that and fractals doesn’t even matter.

I bought my Exotics with gems. Think it cost me 3g but yeah right if I’m grinding for anything. Will get pretty clothes at my own pace. Went through gw1 what 7 years with no Superior Rune of Health? Beat all the content I wanted. Stress, not even once.
I play other games can’t even do that. The grind is overestimated. Yeah the more ascended pieces that come the worse it gets. I can deal, if I recall the level cap will eventually raise, and I’ll do that at my own pace or craft up there assuming crafting gains more levels. Here’s hoping I can drop 10 bucks to ignore the whole process.

Honestly, I think ArenaNet took a more “middle-ground” as far as gear progression goes. The thing is that in most MMOs, there are generally new tiers of gear that often replace the old tier of gear, complete with full sets of armor and trinkets. That meant that Best-in-Slot gear you have earned in each slot would then be replaced by the next tier and so on … thus creating the proverbial “treadmill”.

Right now, it’s just Rings and Backpieces. Meaning: we still have life in most of our Exotics. If anything, future gear would just be more slots but the Ascended rings and back pieces we have now would not be replaced by anything stronger (unless the level cap is increased). At that point, the only reasons why you would ever replace an Ascended piece are: you changed your specialization (eg. using a PTV back piece to be more tank-like instead of a Berserker or Rampager piece for more damage), or you wanted a different skin (Fractal piece, Quiver, or Book).

If I remember something from the previous AMAs, the intention was to release Ascended gear to various parts of the games and that it was a “mistake” to make them dungeon-exclusive.

Honestly, I see this as a suitable compromise. Instead of releasing new tiers of Ascended gear every month that would probably replace old Ascended gear, we just get more Ascended gear in different slots.

I’m still pretty confused on why everyone screams “VERTICAL PROGRESSION!!!” after the release of this update, when all it is, is just another stat tier added on to the 5 of which we already had, only difference being is that there is a slightly bigger jump in effort to get it. The game you bought before is the game you still have, a horizontal MMO with a little bit of non gated vertical progression.

And although I don’t mind the fractals and Ascended gears themselves, Anet definitely implemented them wrongly, a main reason being that there is currently very little incentive to do anything other than farm Fractals (PvE-wise), which results in the death of certain zones… But this has already been addressed as an issue.

I love how none of these threads remember the intense caterwauling that was going on prior to the fuzzy-kittened Fractals update absolutely demanding more gear progression, more endgame, more gated content, MOAR VEE PEE. That particular litter of kittens was just as bad as the Ascended complaints are.

We had our mostly-horizontal game, the idiots on the forum harshed ArenaNet like crazy over it, so we got Fractals. Were Fractals a good idea? Not really, no. Was Ascended gear a good idea? No. Did ArenaNet botch the bejeezus out of it and earn every inch of the fan backlash. Yes. Was the introduction of Fractals, Ascended gear, and all that entitled all y’all’s own dang fault?

YES. YES IT WAS.

Lesson: be careful what you wish for (and by wish, I mean demand in an aggressive and impolite manner or threaten to LEAVE 4EVERZ), because you just might bloody well get it.

Now. Realize that this current gear system isn’t nearly as bad as games like, say…Warcraft (also known as the King of Hamster Wheels or The Soul Devourer), or even most of the free-to-plays. Exotics are pretty straightforward to get and will run ye just fine unless ye’re doing Fractals, and if you’re doing Fractals you just gotta remember: you jackalopes asked for it. Don’t like the taste of your medicine? Well, maybe next time you’ll think a little bit before hopping on the forums and meowing like crazy about a lack of endgame.

‘Sides. Fractals aren’t the problem we need to be worrying about. We need to be worried about ArenaNet’s unexpected, startling and deeply unsettling tendency to -

The above poster has been banned for saying the word ‘ArenaNet’ too many times in one post. And then banned again for saying the word ‘banned’ in a thread at all. His junk is so banned, the next five people who read this post are banned, too. Sucks to be those guys, man.

Ironcloud.3892:

I’m still pretty confused on why everyone screams “VERTICAL PROGRESSION!!!” after the release of this update, when all it is, is just another stat tier added on to the 5 of which we already had, only difference being is that there is a slightly bigger jump in effort to get it. The game you bought before is the game you still have, a horizontal MMO with a little bit of non gated vertical progression.

It’s 2 things.

A) Its a jump in effort for something we never even knew was coming. First the game releases and they make no effort to correct any of us when we talk about how exotics are BiS. Then suddenly they drop a new tier out of nowhere and say “Oh no no this isn’t a new tier! We always meant to do this. Yea… always… /cough”. The level of belief that they won’t have “always” intended to drop yet another tier of gear after this one is not exactly great with us.
B) They have already expressed interest in raising the level cap with expansions. At the rate the ascended gear is getting released, and the time it is taking to grind them out, I wonder how long it will be until the expansion releases? And then what? Level increases and all our gear is rendered worthless so we can start the grind all over again?

Sounds a little like a… oh man, whats the word? Its on the tip of my tongue. A… treadmill! Yea, that’s it. Sounds like a treadmill.

That is what we are upset over.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

The above poster has been banned for saying the word ‘ArenaNet’ too many times in one post. And then banned again for saying the word ‘banned’ in a thread at all. His junk is so banned, the next five people who read this post are banned, too. Sucks to be those guys, man.

This made me laugh… even if saying so will probably get me banned, I had to give kudos to you. =D

Kain Francois.4328:

Fitting considering they threw Horizontal Progression into the Realm of Torment.

Shadow Blade.1324:

i endorse this statement also /respect that is a very nice collection.

critickitten.1498:

Hrm, no, wait. Something must be wrong….it doesn’t look horizontal at all. :/

Gilosean.3805:

Horizontal progression was one of the reasons I bought this game, and that’s also true for a lot of others. It’s uncommon in MMOs. It’s a new and different thing that not a lot of MMOs have. That’s practically the opposite of ‘stale’. If anything, vertical progression is stale, since practically every MMO on the market does it.

Raine.1394:

It’s a beautiful progression. Thanks for the statement—I agree.

Avitarus.1865:

Nice graphic…

Tolmos.8395:

GW2 isn’t a bad game, it’s just misnamed. It is NOT Guild Wars 1’s sequel…

Zhaneel.9208:

Well said!

sallost.6875:

Great statement. Fiercely supported!

Thanks for the Support, It is nice to log in and smile here.

Ironcloud.3892:

I’m still pretty confused on why everyone screams “VERTICAL PROGRESSION!!!” after the release of this update, when all it is, is just another stat tier added on to the 5 of which we already had, only difference being is that there is a slightly bigger jump in effort to get it. The game you bought before is the game you still have, a horizontal MMO with a little bit of non gated vertical progression.

And although I don’t mind the fractals and Ascended gears themselves, Anet definitely implemented them wrongly, a main reason being that there is currently very little incentive to do anything other than farm Fractals (PvE-wise), which results in the death of certain zones… But this has already been addressed as an issue.

This.

As long as the vertical progression doesn’t gate me from content and is a slightly higher low-hanging fruit in regards to effort to acquire, it doesn’t bother me.

I believe that vertical progression as a gating mechanism is a problem, but not one without a fun (hopefully) solution. This game has given a pretty excellent solution thus far, but botched the landing.

They separate racial skills from sPvP, I’m sure they can come up with other creative skills or more skill systems (2-field combos, same profession combos, etc) just for PvE!

Mackdose.6504:

I believe that vertical progression as a gating mechanism is a problem

Many of us agree with you, and having seen it before in various places, we wish not to see it here.

Ironcloud.3892:

I’m still pretty confused on why everyone screams “VERTICAL PROGRESSION!!!” after the release of this update, when all it is, is just another stat tier added on to the 5 of which we already had, only difference being is that there is a slightly bigger jump in effort to get it. The game you bought before is the game you still have, a horizontal MMO with a little bit of non gated vertical progression.

And although I don’t mind the fractals and Ascended gears themselves, Anet definitely implemented them wrongly, a main reason being that there is currently very little incentive to do anything other than farm Fractals (PvE-wise), which results in the death of certain zones… But this has already been addressed as an issue.

Here’s a link to a helpful video if you are confused over vertical progression. It discusses both vertical and horizontal progression and summarizes well the problems that vertical progression creates.

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/