Guild Wars 2

bluewanders.5297:

Tolmos.8395:

bluewanders.5297:

Raine.1394:

CoRtex.2157:

For people who don’t know what vertical & horizontal progression is, watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Here are the issues with the vertical scaling:

1. It’s grindy
2. It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3. It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4. It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content

Here are the benefits of horizontal scaling:

1. There are no brackets due to level or gear score. You can roll a new character and immediately group with other more-experienced characters
2. It levels the playing field in PVE and PVP. Performing well isn’t about your level or gear score, it’s about your ability to play your character effectively and work in a team
3. Content (zones, instances, etc) stays relevant forever

Read more: http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Thanks for this link! I’ve been following Taugrim through two games prior to this one and have benefited much from his theorycrafting builds and info on basic game mechanics. But, I somehow missed this video. He has great insights on this subject just as he does on others. I do hope the proponents of vertical progression and those who think its presence doesn’t matter will check out this video. Pretty good demonstration of the problems with vertical progression and the fact that it’s nothing basic to gaming that needs to be there for a game to be engaging and successful over time. Hope the folks at Anet give it a view as well. Thanks again, you made my day.

Well… I figured since you guys brought Taugrim into the conversation… and that video in particular… I would point something out to you.

Yep, I also notice how that was posted before the November 15th patch.

Bet he cried when that patch came out =D

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

The game is still (mostly) horizontal progression… and hopefully they will expand on that part of the character progression and keep the low power curve of the vertical.

The statement “mostly” doesn’t represent an approval of the vertical progression in GW2. The video gives his take on horizontal and vertical clearly. And, it’s clear in the exchange linked that he favors horizontal over vertical. It’s also clear he likes GW2…as do I.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I love how none of these threads remember the intense caterwauling that was going on prior to the fuzzy-kittened Fractals update absolutely demanding more gear progression, more endgame, more gated content, MOAR VEE PEE. That particular litter of kittens was just as bad as the Ascended complaints are.

We had our mostly-horizontal game, the idiots on the forum harshed ArenaNet like crazy over it, so we got Fractals. Were Fractals a good idea? Not really, no. Was Ascended gear a good idea? No. Did ArenaNet botch the bejeezus out of it and earn every inch of the fan backlash. Yes. Was the introduction of Fractals, Ascended gear, and all that entitled all y’all’s own dang fault?

YES. YES IT WAS.

Lesson: be careful what you wish for (and by wish, I mean demand in an aggressive and impolite manner or threaten to LEAVE 4EVERZ), because you just might bloody well get it.

Except of course fot the tiny fact you overlooked, that people that “asked for it” are different people than those that are put off by Ascended eq. And they are even no longer playing (most of them left long before November 15th).

So no, we got something that people that are no longer playing that game wished for. No wonder we don’t like it.

Astralporing.1957:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I love how none of these threads remember the intense caterwauling that was going on prior to the fuzzy-kittened Fractals update absolutely demanding more gear progression, more endgame, more gated content, MOAR VEE PEE. That particular litter of kittens was just as bad as the Ascended complaints are.

We had our mostly-horizontal game, the idiots on the forum harshed ArenaNet like crazy over it, so we got Fractals. Were Fractals a good idea? Not really, no. Was Ascended gear a good idea? No. Did ArenaNet botch the bejeezus out of it and earn every inch of the fan backlash. Yes. Was the introduction of Fractals, Ascended gear, and all that entitled all y’all’s own dang fault?

YES. YES IT WAS.

Lesson: be careful what you wish for (and by wish, I mean demand in an aggressive and impolite manner or threaten to LEAVE 4EVERZ), because you just might bloody well get it.

Except of course fot the tiny fact you overlooked, that people that “asked for it” are different people than those that are put off by Ascended eq. And they are even no longer playing (most of them left long before November 15th).

So no, we got something that people that are no longer playing that game wished for. No wonder we don’t like it.

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

I don’t really know how ANet is going to resolve the PR kittenstorm they’ve manufactured. They’ve gotten a -lot- of negative press over this, and I imagine the next time they announce concreate plans to add more ascended gear pieces…these forums and many fansites are just going to re-ignite with rage and dissatisfaction. I don’t know how much more public lashing this game can take.

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Well, it’s all circumstantial of course, but….

• The number of players who admitted to quitting in these forums and others.
• A significantly drop-off in player count on some sites, such as Xfire.
• More and more complaints about empty servers.

And their sales figures are also much lower, so there aren’t as many new players buying the game (mostly due to bad press and bad word of mouth from those in these forums and/or those who have left).

There is no concrete evidence that people have left, this is true. However I think it’s ridiculous for anyone to actually believe that GW2’s numbers are as high as they were at launch by this point in time, especially given the large promotional sale GW2 did for the holidays to try and entice new players. This is generally the point in time when most MMOs experience a significant exodus anyways, as demonstrated by Rift, TERA, and SWTOR before this.

That picture looks very very boring to me I mean 7 years and all you get is a few different outfits? No wonder I don’t no anyone who played that game for more than a month…..

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Well, it’s all circumstantial of course, but….

• The number of players who admitted to quitting in these forums and others.
• A significantly drop-off in player count on some sites, such as Xfire.
• More and more complaints about empty servers.

And their sales figures are also much lower, so there aren’t as many new players buying the game (mostly due to bad press and bad word of mouth from those in these forums and/or those who have left).

There is no concrete evidence that people have left, this is true. However I think it’s ridiculous for anyone to actually believe that GW2’s numbers are as high as they were at launch by this point in time, especially given the large promotional sale GW2 did for the holidays to try and entice new players. This is generally the point in time when most MMOs experience a significant exodus anyways, as demonstrated by Rift, TERA, and SWTOR before this.

According to VG charts, in retail distribution (not direct from buy.guildwars2.com) The game is holding steady at ~10k sales/per mo. after its initial surge.

That’s not bad considering it’s amazon and brick n mortar.

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Well, for first, you could check the forum posting history of those players that complained then. You coud also see, that the complains about the endgame were mostly gone already even before November 15 patch. Additionally, the posts were mostly from content locust – players, that (if they were still in a game) would be complaining NOW as loudly as then, about a lack of endgame (because they would have devoured the new content long ago).

All of those above is circumstantial, not hard proof, but points to the fact that the endgame complainers of that time are no longer playing.

Mind you, i did not claim that there is less people playing now than them. While i personally think that this is the case, it is a result of my personal observations that are way less conclusive (and definitely do not qualify as a proof of any kind).

I wonder if ArenaNet has even considered for the slightest moment to shift their focus due to the public outcry this vertical progression thing has caused.

Of course I doubt they ever will go back on the introduction of it.. As once something is into the game its hard to take it out.

Mackdose.6504:

According to VG charts, in retail distribution (not direct from buy.guildwars2.com) The game is holding steady at ~10k sales/per mo. after its initial surge.

That’s not bad considering it’s amazon and brick n mortar.

You may want to check that data again.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/37350/guild-wars-2/USA/

What you’re quoting isn’t monthly data, it’s weekly. And it’s only for the first ten weeks of sales, which would take it up through November, just before the release of Lost Shores. I wonder what the data would look like after that point, hrm….

TL;DR – Blurf, horizontal progression is a nice concept but still open to gating issues, subjectivity; argument comes down to design and implementation more than philosophy.

I’m sensitive to the concerns of people who have bought the game on the basis of a design philosophy that they feel is being marginalised. I feel that the lengthy development time, coupled with any latent nostalgia around the first game may have coloured people’s opinions slightly (and introduced a form of bias towards what could be perceived as horizontal progression and a retention of certain values from the original, as might be expected from the followers of a franchise), but regardless I don’t feel that the concerns are invalid.

However, I question as to whether horizontal progression as a philosophy is quite as clean as it might seem.

‘Grind’ is inherently subjective. You cannot presume that one person’s definition of a grind is the same as yours, and some even delineate between a positive and a negative grind based on their enjoyment. It’s also worth noting that horizontal progression can involve just as much grind as vertical, and vice versa. It’s the way that each are implemented that seems important to me, because they both have the potential to be enjoyable. A wide range of critically-acclaimed games are based around vertical progression. Correlation does not imply causation.

Horizontal progression is not as open as some might paint it to be. Even when presuming that it is only VP at the maximum level that people are concerned about, focus on HP will likely gate content based on skill levels, group composition and game experience. This will still be promoting a level of elitism in the game whereby stringent requirements for efficiency will be expected – ones not softened by going about the relatively simple task of getting upgraded gear (not to the highest level, because we don’t currently need the highest level gear to play any part of the game besides repetitions of Fractals, and we’ve no sign that this will change). In this respect, VP could ease the transition from ‘inexperienced’ to ‘experienced’, whereby less-skilled players could still enjoy content that may otherwise be made inaccessible. I do not think that is a bad thing. I feel that everyone should have the opportunity to appreciate the content in a game, and it seems to me that HP has just as much potential for gating as VP if it is not implemented sensitively.

I personally feel that content gating is just as impacted by character level than equipment. I have completed most of Orr in a mixture of greens and yellows, but as a level 80 character – I know if I’d attempted the same as a level 60, with the best gear available to a level 60 character, it would have been far more difficult. That would be down to a mixture of available traits/points to make a decent build, lower HP pool, lessened ability to pick and choose skills I wanted (presuming that I had no skill points left, didn’t want to head to new zones to pick more up and needed to buy new skills to develop a build) and a presumably smaller pool of gold to work with. These are all aspects relating to level (but that could all be considered as separate points), but we seem far happier to simply expect that – we expect new players to have to play for dozens of hours to enjoy content that would still be gated with HP. That seems weird to me, but it isn’t a point that folks are arguing doesn’t exist.

It’s impossible for any of us to say just how much VP will effect the game. We can say that we disagree with its philosophy, we can say that it has ruined our enjoyment of other titles, and we can say that we are concerned that quotes by Dev members have made. But most of this seems to be more about concerns over implementation than anything. If the power curve being mentioned is so shallow that I can play the game I enjoy and progress on the curve without noticing it – if the design and the mechanics are solid enough that I can simply play the game and have the game subtly guide me along the curve, then I don’t think that has to be a negative thing. But the trick’s in the subtleties. I’ve achieved end-game content (exotic karma armour) while working up towards my end-game (World Completion), and it eased me into the expectations of an end-level character. There’s nothing to currently say that VP going forward won’t be similar and that the FotM introduction was an unfortunate blip.

If you read all that, have a cookie. If not, I don’t blame you.

Yeah, that’s a big post. Colour me embarrassed.

we need a slight vertical progression!

WoW = hard vertical progression … no life
GW2 = slight vertical progression… very good
The difference between medicine and poison is the dose!
Without progression vertical = no endgame = no players

I love GW2 … i hate WoW!…

Seeing this thread reminds me of how optimistic I was that GW2 would be a “game for the ages”, like GW1. I had planned out character designs in the beta and rolled 1 of each class within minutes of the game being released, buying gems to get the slots. I did this because I imagined that I would be able to level each of them to the permanent level/gear cap and then play whichever I wanted to play over the next years.

Boy was I wrong.

I still play GW2, because I don’t know of a good alternative horizontal RPG. GW1 doesn’t get new content and is empty. Really, I’m the worst kind of player that Arenanet could have. I warn all my friends to stay away. I never buy any more gems. Yet I still play to get my 180EURs worth back from this game… until the day a true horizontal game comes out. I could have been a loyal customer for years. I did push this game on friends (something I deeply regret now). I’m not the only one.

proxy.7963:

If the power curve being mentioned is so shallow that I can play the game I enjoy and progress on the curve without noticing it – if the design and the mechanics are solid enough that I can simply play the game and have the game subtly guide me along the curve, then I don’t think that has to be a negative thing. But the trick’s in the subtleties.

Quoted by being my exact thoughts on this topic.

It’s up to the devs to design the game to guide us (non-grind types) along the gear curve through playing, not grinding, and it’s so far, so good. (Unless you must have infused ascended gear, in which case enjoy your grind. I’ll be off having fun instead.)

For me it’s really simple:

- Make Ascended items have the same stats as Exotics.
- Only diference is that Ascended items can be Infused and are vital to progress in FoTM. Those infusions should be expansive & require some work to craft. People wanting to go far in FoTM would have to work hard for it.

There you go! You please the casuals (no VP) and the hardcores (Gated Grindy Content!).

Anchorwind.9016:

Please see attached graphic for statement.

That picture has over 9000 might stacks, so powerful that i can i half-shot Lupicus.

Colin Johanson

You won’t see another tier between ascended and legendary in 2013 for example. … Later in 2013, we’ll begin to introduce more of these systems once we’ve finished rolling out the remaining ascended gear and infusions.

Good news, everyone! We’ll have our complete ascended gear(12+2/12+4) and ascended infusion(another 12) by the end of the year, which means pretty much one new ascended gear piece per month, plus infusions. That’s definitely going to tide players over until 2013, when they will once again “consider” getting more gear into the game.

Colin Johanson

These will show off the prestige of your character, but will not make your character more powerful than other characters.

There is more hope!

alcopaul.2156:

Anchorwind.9016:

Please see attached graphic for statement.

That picture has over 9000 might stacks, so powerful that i can i half-shot Lupicus.

This made me laugh, a lot. Thanks!

ASB.4295:

Good news, everyone! We’ll have our complete ascended gear(12+2/12+4) and ascended infusion(another 12) by the end of the year, which means pretty much one new ascended gear piece per month, plus infusions. That’s definitely going to tide players over until 2013, when they will once again “consider” getting more gear into the game.

Welcome to GW2: Gear Gating.

Slight vertical progression is always nice…..

But the root of an MMO is making people keep playing.

GW1 had many different systems to keep players playing. Be it from titles, to armor skins, to skills, etc…

GW2 doesn’t have as many systems as GW1 had when GW1 was in its prime. GW2 is about at the same level as GW1 when GW1 released.

We are just going to have to wait for updates to continually push systems.

Mackdose.6504:

proxy.7963:

If the power curve being mentioned is so shallow that I can play the game I enjoy and progress on the curve without noticing it – if the design and the mechanics are solid enough that I can simply play the game and have the game subtly guide me along the curve, then I don’t think that has to be a negative thing. But the trick’s in the subtleties.

Quoted by being my exact thoughts on this topic.

It’s up to the devs to design the game to guide us (non-grind types) along the gear curve through playing, not grinding, and it’s so far, so good. (Unless you must have infused ascended gear, in which case enjoy your grind. I’ll be off having fun instead.)

My problem with the November 15 update is not so much that it introduced gear grind as that it introduced the Fractal level gated content. I have had the displeasure of watching guildmates that enjoy each other’s company, that have played together since the game started, being forced to decide whether to play Fractal 7-8 for the sake of both level advancement and significantly better drops/rewards, or join their friends in fractal levels 3/4 where they can have good fun as a team but without the enhanced progression. That’s where A-Net really messed up, and they say they’ll fix it.

I can live with the gentle power curve, even though it isn’t my preferred method of play, but I won’t live with the splintered relationships if they continue to gate content in a completely artificial and unneeded manner. Hopefully they’ve learned that lesson.

Tiger.7506:

WoW = hard vertical progression … no life
GW2 = slight vertical progression… very good
The difference between medicine and poison is the dose!

Exactly right.

I don’t know why some people on these forums are so vocally against anything resembling a shade of vertical progression. Who wants to play an MMO where you know from the beginning: “I will never be more powerful than I am right now.”

What ANet has done so far is perfectly acceptable. None of the story and exploration content in this game, up to and including Arah, requires anything higher than Green to Yellow gear, depending on your skill. Both are extremely easy to obtain, whether by drops, trading post, or crafting. Exotics are also available for an added boost, but are not required by any stretch of the imagination — and the amount by which they make you more effective is nowhere near that of comparable tiers of gear in other games.

Ascended gear has recently entered the game, which currently has some kinks ANet is working out. At present, you have to run Fractals to get it — but you only need that gear for Fractals anyhow. It is a very small sliver of the game, self-contained, and designed for people who enjoy that kind of vertical progression and ramp in difficulty. I’ve run a few fractals, but haven’t received any gear from them yet whatsoever. And you know what? I’ve not been barred from anything else in the game.

There is no hard stop that players have to put up with if they don’t want to hop on a gear treadmill. Zhaitan isn’t hidden behind a succession of various raids and gear checks, and even the most casual player can potentially see and experience 100% of the game.

I play GW2 way too much — hours a day — and I still get to run dungeons and everything else with friends who only get to play maybe once a week if they’re lucky. This is one of the most balanced, fair-handed, equal-opportunity MMOs out there, allowing for many different kinds of players to participate and have fun. People who complain about “gear gating” in GW2 have no idea how spoiled they are, and are making a mountain out of a molehill. ANet is working hard to please you people, but they also have to please the fans who want more vertical progression.

As long as everyone has equal access and potential for advancement, I don’t see what there is to complain about.

I’ve been silent thus far on the Vertical progression vs. Horizontal progression kerfuffle going on here. First up – misconceptions that people seem to enjoy making.

1) The forums are representative of the whole playerbase — they aren’t. The forums represent a very specific subset (and very small) of the overall player base. You can’t take the forums as representative of the whole because the people who come here to post have an inherent inclination to do so to begin with — and not all gamers (or even most gamers) have an inclination to brave the forums. If you only use the forums as your basis for making a decision or for viewing trends in a game, your results will always be skewed and unreliable.

2) Design should stay the same, without exception – because WoW was totally flawless at the start? Because devs never ever miss anything, or make assumptions about how fast people will chew through content or anything — clearly, devs should never make a mistake. (please note: sarcasm) Anyone who works in development at all knows that people find ways to do things they weren’t intended to do — no matter how solid the design. You can’t get everything right directly out of the gates. There will be bugs. You can QA for months and there will still be bugs.

3) VP vs. HP has to be an all or nothing philosophy. Black and white statements don’t really benefit anyone. Saying all VP is bad and only HP is good is silly. Even the original Guild Wars still had VP — just a make higher dosage of HP. WoW on the other hand has much more VP than HP – but the HP is still there. It’s never an all or nothing deal when it comes to design.

The Devs said that one of the downfalls of Guild Wars 1 was that the game got stagnant. There were some people who loved it — but that doesn’t mean it was the holy grail of design. The devs want a little bit of vertical progression because that keeps the game interesting and evolving — in a way that Guild Wars 1 never did.

The fact that they added a tier of gear has such a minimal impact, I fail to see the rationale in making a mountain out of this molehill. For those who say that they’ve gotten a lot of bad press over this … where? The controversy is just on the forums and a few select gaming sites. Whereas it being ranked as one of the best games of 2012 saw much larger release. Do a google search for guild wars 2, or guild wars 2 review—you won’t see anything but positive for the first 3 pages. Even do a search for guild wars 2 ascended gear, and there’s a measly 2 articles, both from Massively, on the first page about it.

I think the key here is that a small amount of vertical progression isn’t terrible. There are still a multitude of ways to get the best gear. Think about WoW, the ONLY way to get the best gear was to raid. You didn’t have any other options. In GW2, all you have are options. GRANTED, the other ways of getting it aren’t implemented, but Anet has said repeatedly, there will be other ways to get the gear.

For all the people who say they’ve quit, or sold their accounts, or everyone they know quit playing — really? You aren’t fooling anyone. You come to the forums because you are invested in the game, not because you quit and want to let everyone know how cool you are.

Let me address that point after point

1) The forums are representative of the whole playerbase — they aren’t.

Isn’t this exactly the same argument used on SWTOR forums by people claiming that – contrary to general forum attitude – everything was okay with the game?
Yes, the forums indeed are not the whole playerbase, but they still are a representative subset. If you want to claim otherwise, and use that as a basis for something, then you’d better not only prove that there is a bias in the forums, but show in which direction this bias goes (and why).

2) Design should stay the same, without exception – because WoW was totally flawless at the start? Because devs never ever miss anything, or make assumptions about how fast people will chew through content or anything — clearly, devs should never make a mistake.

There is a very big difference between bugfixing, introducing new designs, enhancing and streamlining the game and a massive change to the core game philosophy (that formed the basis for advertising) that was made 3 months after launch.

3) VP vs. HP has to be an all or nothing philosophy. Black and white statements don’t really benefit anyone. Saying all VP is bad and only HP is good is silly.

Unfortunately, in this case, it IS a binary matter. Either the character advancement is VP based, or not. It doesn’t mean that VP is necessarily bad (each has its own fans) – just that those two approaches are different, and this game was advertised as HP based.
Just for your information – GW1 did NOT have VP advancement at all. There was no better, stronger eq, higher levels etc in new campaigns/expansions. All advancement was sideways, opening new options to your character – but once you got to level 20 and top eq in the first campaign, you character never got any stronger later on.

The Devs said that one of the downfalls of Guild Wars 1 was that the game got stagnant.

Yes… that’s technically true. They forgot to mention, however, that it got stagnant only after devs announced that all development for GW1 gets cancelled and GW2 is in the work. Even then it continued quite well until GW2 betas (and later launch).
It wasn’t game design that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by developers.

The fact that they added a tier of gear has such a minimal impact

No, the 3 items already in game have minimal stat impact. The impact of the gear’s existence in the game is much higher than warranted by stats, and the impact of the whole set (which we can already estimate with quite good precision) will be anything but minimal (see maths on other threads – it’s over 20% damage difference for berserker gear based on stat difference alone, without adjusting for higher weapon base damage)

I think the key here is that a small amount of vertical progression isn’t terrible. There are still a multitude of ways to get the best gear. Think about WoW, the ONLY way to get the best gear was to raid. You didn’t have any other options. In GW2, all you have are options.

Yes, i can choose fractals… or fractals.

GRANTED, the other ways of getting it aren’t implemented, but Anet has said repeatedly, there will be other ways to get the gear.

They said that two months ago. We already know it won’t be in January update. Seeing that, i’m less optimistic than you that they’ll keep this promise anytime soon.

@Astralporing

Counter points :-)
1) Forums as a medium as feedback are fine and no doubt devs read it, but saying that the forums represent the majority opinions of the game is silly. If we use WoW forums as a case study, less than 1% of the total player base actually comments on the forums. Now, that number won’t translate directly here because the gateway to being able to participate is different. But even if we assume 2-3x that number of people being active on the forums, you are still looking at only 3-5% of the total game population present on the forums.

Does that mean that the issues being brought up on the forums aren’t shared by those who aren’t on the forums? Not at all — all I’m saying is that you can’t cite the forums as being representative of the whole when they aren’t. It’s a logical fallacy, pure and simple.

2) I think you need to reconsider defining the addition of Ascended as a massive change. True, there’s a minimal stat bump – but it’s hardly justification for saying its a massive change to design. Especially when you consider that they will be adding additional ways to get ascended gear, and had planned it from the start. The benefit that you get from the 3 meager pieces of Ascended Gear currently in the game can hardly be classified as required for anything, other than ego. The have stated that Fractals are not the only way to get Ascended gear, just the only way right now.

3) No, it’s not a binary design decision. There can be both — I played Guild Wars 1 as well, there was vertical progression. You didn’t start the game as level 20 with level 20 weapons — there was progression to get there. You worked the way up from lvl 1 to lvl 20. That, like it or not, is vertical progression.

What the game needs to maintain is a diagonal progression—with a very gradual slope. Vertical progression keeps the game fresh and allows them to evolve the game. Horizontal keeps from feeling like an endless treadmill of gear.

That the game was stagnant only when you stopped development is opinion, and as such totally unverifiable. Clearly the devs thought the game was stagnant before that point.

And you can’t predict anything with good precision — you don’t hold any of the cards in this game. What you can do is predict what you think are going to be trends based on increases off of 3 pieces in the game — you assume what the other gear will look like. You have no validation that any prediction you’ve made will pan out. You (the theorycrafters) make a long, long series of assumptions based on a very small sample of data to guesstimate at the ultimate outcome. And then cite it as if it’s gospel.

So because the devs didn’t add something in the time frame you deemed appropriate means they won’t do it any time soon? If I were in their position, if I did have a rollout planned for the other ascended pieces, I would put it on hold because of the rage around the 3 pieces already in game. I would take a step back, even if I didn’t think I was going to change anything to make sure I introduced them in a way to make the least rage and most accessibility.

Patience is a good thing.

Redfeather.6401:

My pve character’s skills. For those who didn’t play GW1, the skills with gold borders require finding the boss that uses it and capturing that skill from them. Takes a long time!

Edit: Forum seems to despise my attachment.

The feeling when you know the name of every single one of those skills, and what they did…

So many memories.

Razor.9132:

Welcome to GW2: Gear Gating.

Gear gating can be counteracted by making older tiers progressively easier to attain with each new tier release. So no matter how far you are behind, if the devs balance it right you could gear up fast enough to start working towards the current top gear.

Reaver.9256:

That picture looks very very boring to me I mean 7 years and all you get is a few different outfits? No wonder I don’t no anyone who played that game for more than a month…..

I know plenty of people who have invested YEARS in Guild Wars 1. It actually took tactics to play, what a concept. People who had no skill left because they couldn`t just spam the skills and expect it to work. It took intelligence and was a very good game, I spent over six years playing it and enjoyed every minute of it.

alcopaul.2156:

Anchorwind.9016:

Please see attached graphic for statement.

That picture has over 9000 might stacks, so powerful that i can i half-shot Lupicus.

What?!?! Over 9000?

Would have loved that dragon tattoo on a necro.

Serrenitei.2601:

@Astralporing

Counter points :-)
1) Forums as a medium as feedback are fine and no doubt devs read it, but saying that the forums represent the majority opinions of the game is silly. If we use WoW forums as a case study, less than 1% of the total player base actually comments on the forums. Now, that number won’t translate directly here because the gateway to being able to participate is different. But even if we assume 2-3x that number of people being active on the forums, you are still looking at only 3-5% of the total game population present on the forums.

In real life, using 1% of population as a sample for trend analysis is considered to be a huge overkill. Usually you can get pretty accurate results using a 1k sample (less than we have forum users) for a population of a big country (way more than we have GW2 accounts).

2) I think you need to reconsider defining the addition of Ascended as a massive change. True, there’s a minimal stat bump – but it’s hardly justification for saying its a massive change to design. Especially when you consider that they will be adding additional ways to get ascended gear, and had planned it from the start.

Changing from horizontal progression to vertical one (remember, they clearly stated now that ascended eq will NOT be the end – the progression will continue on) in opposition to the original stated design goals (and avery part of advertising they’ve done up to that point) is a massive change of design. Also, all evidence points out to them not planning it from the start. There wasn’t even a hint of introducing item progression prior to Nov 15th – there was however lot of suggestions that it won’t be introduced ever.

3) No, it’s not a binary design decision. There can be both — I played Guild Wars 1 as well, there was vertical progression. You didn’t start the game as level 20 with level 20 weapons — there was progression to get there. You worked the way up from lvl 1 to lvl 20. That, like it or not, is vertical progression.

This kind of “progression” was capped. The one in GW2 is not – they said they will continue with it even after ascended set is out. This is a difference between individual character level/eq progression in horizontal progression game, and a vertical progression game design. If the end game eq changes with time – regardless of how fast it happens, you don’t have a horizontal progression game anymore. This is a binary effect.

That the game was stagnant only when you stopped development is opinion, and as such totally unverifiable. Clearly the devs thought the game was stagnant before that point.

It’s interesting, then, that they didn’t even hint about it then – quite the opposite. Their stated reason for pursuing GW2 was the mechanical limitations of GW1 engine, not the design faults. Basically they said they decided to do GW2 when they realized that lot of their ideas for GW1 expansions could not be done with GW1 engine. You’d thnk that if they thought that GW1 was becoming stagnant, we’d have heard it at least once in those past 7 years.

And you can’t predict anything with good precision — you don’t hold any of the cards in this game. What you can do is predict what you think are going to be trends based on increases off of 3 pieces in the game — you assume what the other gear will look like.

4 pieces, actually – the stats for ascended weapons leaked out at one point, when they assigned them to legendaries by mistake. And since each tier stat increases follow a clear pattern, those 4 items are enough to predict stats of all the others with good accuracy.

So because the devs didn’t add something in the time frame you deemed appropriate means they won’t do it any time soon? If I were in their position, if I did have a rollout planned for the other ascended pieces, I would put it on hold because of the rage around the 3 pieces already in game.

I wasn’t saying anything about a rollout of NEW pieces – only of alternate ways of getting the ones we have (and remember, they claim these alternate ways were supposed to be available at the same time the first items were introduced, they were just delayed). I was also talking about cost adjustments to backpieces/infusions. Both of those cases were acknowledged by them as critical. You don’t take several months to fix critical problems unless it requires a significant amount of coding (all the coding for alternate availability is already in the game, used by exotic items, and adjusting prices don’t require much coding at all), or unless you don’t really consider it critical at all.

Patience is a good thing.

Only, if time is not of the essence.