Guild Wars 2

Yes another thread about Legendary/Precursor weapons. However, I feel like this is a well thought out and structured post that is more meaningful than the others who are creating threads out of anger and not offering any meaningful input.

To Clarify:

I would first like to start off by saying I do not wish to promote a flame war between opinions. I know other threads like this have been created and destroyed by those who #1 don’t read and understand what people are saying and #2 spam out responses without any meaningful information to the thread. I simply ask the readers and Devs to input their opinions without trying to criticize each other. Disagreeing is fine as long as some information that benefits the thread is presented. My goal is to promote something I feel would be beneficial to the game as a whole.

First to clarify and define the word legendary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/legendary

leg·en·dar·y (ljn-dr)
adj.
1. Of, constituting, based on, or of the nature of a legend.
2. a. Celebrated in legend.
b. Extremely well known; famous or renowned.

(I’ve looked at other websites and the definitions are all the same.)
Note that no where in the definition does it say rarity.

I understand that when people see the word legendary, the instantly think, epically those coming from other MMOs, extremely rare. And I can guarantee that the requirements for completing just the Gift of Mastery will alone guarantee the legendary weapons will be far and few between.

However, the biggest mistake when trying to compare legendary weapons to other MMOs. Anet, in their manifesto, stated that they are trying to completely redo the concept of MMOs . “We do not want to build the same MMO everyone else is building.” So why not take this opportunity to break the mold?

Before we dive deeper into the meat of the conversion, I would like to make one thing perfectly clear. I am in no way asking for, nor suggesting, an easier way for obtaining legendary weapons or any of their components thus making them more “common”. I am suggesting a change in the system so that those going for their legendary weapons can rely on something concrete and that truly shows their skill instead of luck, amount of personal wealth, or other non moral means.

(Part 1)

The Problem:

As of now, I believe everything that is required to craft legendary weapons is brilliant. Everything but 1 step, the acquisition of the precursor weapon. The legendary recipe tests the player in every aspect of the game and demands dedication and mastery in order to succeed. In my opinion, this is how it should be. However when we take a look at precursor weapons, they seem to break the mold. There are 2 main ways of acquiring these weapons. Random world drops from mobs or chests, or by using the mystic forge thousands of times in hopes one will be rewarded. Yes people will argue “if you want a concrete way of obtaining them, just buy them from the TP”. However, where did those in the TP originally come from? Blind luck/RNG.

As people post more and more failed attempts at obtaining the precursor through RNG…

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/117j15/130_exotic_greatswords_wasnt_enough/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/117q1i/100g_350_attempts_at_duskdawn_in_1_sitting_200g/

(and so on)

…players do 1 of two things. They either migrate to buying them in the TP or give up. Problem: The vast majority of precursors are obtained through the mystic forge, people giving up on the forge means less will be produced = price will constantly rise in the TP due to a shrinking supply and increased demand.

Anet has already acknowledged that the price of the precursors are already a concern.

Looking at the above trend, I believe that prices will continue to rise and grow even more unstable.

Obviously, I am not the only one who knows about the 21 karma and Godskull exploits that produced a large amount of precursors cheaply and made certain people, or groups of people, a ton of money. Because it’s well know that precursors have been “tainted”, many people, including myself don’t trust the sellers in the TP because we would then be supporting someone who abused exploits.

The above lets me conclude that the current way of obtaining precursors is flawed.
It doesn’t test skill
It’s blind luck

For those that argue “Luck is great! It insures that only the top .001% have it and make it extremely rare.” First off, it will be rare by the other requirements involved and second, (imo) legendary weapons should be a reward for skill, not luck and exploits. Because many people believe the current system is “tainted” I would expect to hear more people calling those with legendary weapons “cheaters” or “exploiters” or “how much of daddy’s money did it cost?” Instead of actually congratulating them on an impressive achievement.

Before the solution, let me make one more comment about “entitlement”.

We are all entitled to the game and all of it’s content. If people aren’t willing to put in the work, than they won’t meet the base requirements for legendary weapons. However, Anet didn’t just sell us a game, they also sold us a philosophy (part of which stated in their manifesto). I believe that Anet is working diligently for their customers. The game they produced thus far is amazing. But we are customers and have the right to voice our opinions hoping that Anet will listen. I believe the vast majority of the player base would agree with me and I’m here to make an educated post stating why.

The Fix:

Since people don’t trust the TP and the mystic forge is such a gamble, the easiest way to fix the problem is to make a set recipe. Other named exotic have them, whey not the precursors?
- This statement will make a lot of people mad, but I will repeat one of my earlier comments -

I am in no way asking for, nor suggesting, an easier way for obtaining legendary weapons or any of their components thus making them more “common”.

Having a set recipe doesn’t necessarily make it easier to obtain, but instead makes a definitive goal which one can aim and expect to hit once achieved.

“But won’t that make the ingredients spike in price?” – Not if the majority of the recipe is bought with Karma, Skill Points, Gems, or Dungeon Tokens.

“But if you want something concrete why not just buy it from the TP?” – Because, as stated before, #1 People don’t trust the people selling them and #2 They are too unstable in price and quantity.

In my opinion, those who would still be protecting the current system are those who are currently benefiting form it, or those who have already acquired their precursor and want others to go through the same thing. By not changing something because of this belief is not how a society advances. If there are problems with something, it should be fixed.

Another Option:
Precursors could also be a reward for some type of major achievement in game. An achievement that tests skill, not luck. Plus the Precursor could then be account bound and completely eliminate the TP worship of them.
-This idea will most definitely kitten those off who are in the business of buying and selling precursors for a profit.-

Another Option:
Increase the drop chance of precursors, however this would use the same system of luck and TP, both of which people don’t like or trust. This would also make it easier to obtain and diminish the “rarity”. It’s not an option I favor, but an option.

The Summary:

It is my belief that the current way to obtain a precursor is flawed. It tests luck, not skill. By not having something concrete it is a killer to a player’s moral, like those in the links. Legendary weapons by definition doesn’t constitute rarity, but “well known and celebrated”. While they are well known, they most certainly are not celebrated because of the belief that cheaters/exploiters will be the only ones who can obtain them. A set recipe would do wonders in promoting a healthy player base who are aiming for legendary weapons by giving them another option rather than blind luck or dancing to the tune of a potentially tainted precursor.

Again to clarify-

I am not asking for an easier way of obtaining a precursor, just a different option.

I am not asking to be handed a legendary weapon nor do I feel that I, nor anyone else deserves one if not willing to put in the effort.

I am simply asking to be tested for skill rather than luck.
(Clovers are the luck portion and even if we don’t get clovers we still make some progress by being rewarded other T6 mats).

Again, please offer meaningful input. I may or may not post in this thread again because I have said what I want to say and don’t wish to engage in a “flame war” of opinions.

My last statement. Regardless of what Anet stands behind, either RNG or something else in the future, it will not stop my quest for a legendary weapon and enjoying the game to its fullest.

Tomcat I completely agree with you on the point that the wrong audience is favored by the legendary system. Those that utilize bots, hacks, and exploits are favored due to the fact that coin is the most efficient way to obtain the precursor items. Those that know how to make money in markets are also favored, but their wealth must be accepted because of having the trading post.

The people that should be favored for obtaining any reward are those that experience and overcome new (to them) content, utilized coordinated teamwork, and display superb skill.

The issue lies in that the most efficient way to obtain precursors is through utilizing large amounts of coin to obtain many weapons. I would like to see coin removed as an efficient means to obtaining a precursor, which means the way to obtain precursors would have to change.

Well if you want to have fun with dictionaries, the root word of “legendary” is, of course, “legend”:

leg·end
a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable

“Not verifiable” just means something that “can not be verified”… not definitive, not written and properly recorded, not reliable, etc…

I fail to see your point. All I see is something else other than “rarity”.

Again please make things clear and give thought on a meaningful response.

His point is that not verifiable is often the result of the rarity of an occurrence due to the difficulty of reproducing it. Many times this is true, many times it’s not.

Good thread and well reasoned arguments unlike the imbeciles posting in the official thread in the crafting section.
Disagree on these points:
- In my opinion, having the precursor be a random drop from the forge adds a great deal of mystery and specialness to the items. If there were set recipes, then people would know exactly what they require and I think that would ruin that feeling. I like the mysterious feeling but at the same time I dislike the rng aspect that causes it so I understand your reasoning very well. However I’d rather keep rng and not have a set recipe.
- It has only been a month since the game launched and even less since people started trying to get precursors. The price should stabilize shortly.
- Players with a legendary are currently positively received and that is not going to change.
- You keep saying you want to be tested with skill. You have to differentiate farming for karma, badges, tokens, whatever, and skill. Farming for x materials is much closer to farming the gold for buying the precursor than it is to a test of skill. So just say you want a set recipe.
- A real test of skill (killing a hard boss) will definitely be too easy. This is fairly obvious if you think about it.

Wahaha.7938:

Good thread and well reasoned arguments unlike the imbeciles posting in the official thread in the crafting section.
Disagree on these points:
- In my opinion, having the precursor be a random drop from the forge adds a great deal of mystery and specialness to the items. If there were set recipes, then people would know exactly what they require and I think that would ruin that feeling. I like the mysterious feeling but at the same time I dislike the rng aspect that causes it so I understand your reasoning very well. However I’d rather keep rng and not have a set recipe.
- It has only been a month since the game launched and even less since people started trying to get precursors. The price should stabilize shortly.
- Players with a legendary are currently positively received and that is not going to change.
- You keep saying you want to be tested with skill. You have to differentiate farming for karma, badges, tokens, whatever, and skill. Farming for x materials is much closer to farming the gold for buying the precursor than it is to a test of skill. So just say you want a set recipe.
- A real test of skill (killing a hard boss) will definitely be too easy. This is fairly obvious if you think about it.

There is no mystery or specialness. Everyone who has any interest in legendary weapons already knows the ‘recipe’: Gamble four level 75+ rares/exotics of the same type. That’s all it is, raw gambling. It encourages botting in the worst possible way. It is bad, and should be changed.

Great post.
I also feel that a legendary weapon should show a person’s skill at the whole game and should be really hard to obtain. As a display of skill
I don’t like the way it is structured now for the reasons you stated.
My thoughts were along the lines of quests and secrets that you have to find in order to make/craft a precursor.
I don’t know how useful that is though because the recipe will make it onto the internet asap. But that should not matter.
Make it hard, make it costly make it a real effort.
It would be an awesome real goal to work towards.
As it stands only people who are rich in game can even think about a legendary- While being rich in game is an achievement, it is not the kind of thing that says Game Mastery.

Morrigan.2809:

I don’t like the way it is structured now for the reasons you stated.
My thoughts were along the lines of quests and secrets that you have to find in order to make/craft a precursor.

Well thats how I thought legendaries would be created when they were first mentioned. Instead we get dumb luck and grinding.

precursors are up to 400g now, from 180 last night.

this isn’t due to not enough or high demand, this is one or two individuals who made a lot of money – most likely through an exploit – buying them up and then doubling their resell value for profit

there are only three ways to fix this:

1) make pre-cursers really easy to get, lowering their value

2) put a cap on how much you can sell them for on the tp. 100g is reasonable

3) remove the ability to sell precursors at all

Precursors are definitely my least favorite design choice in GW2. I see what Anet tried to do with them. They are a nearly infinite sink for otherwise useless rares and exotics that would otherwise drive the value of weapons (and crafting materials) down. However the all or nothing approach is terrible.

We’ve already been down this road in other games. If you can find an example of an MMO where the players enjoyed having the best items tied to RNG luck, please tell me. It’s hard not to be bitter when you try 40 or more times to get an item then someone gets it on their first run.

I propose simply changing the mystic forge gambling to award shards, splinters, or whatever which can be used to craft a legendary precursor. The pieces would be a fairly common (30% or so) drop, with more pieces awarded based on the rarity and level of the items used in the forge. Acquire a certain number of pieces, toss them into the forge with some mystic coins and junk, then you have a precursor. Or buy them on the TP if you want. Letting people trade them would stabilize the price of the base weapons already on the TP.

Wahaha.7938:

Good thread and well reasoned arguments unlike the imbeciles posting in the official thread in the crafting section.
Disagree on these points:
- In my opinion, having the precursor be a random drop from the forge adds a great deal of mystery and specialness to the items. If there were set recipes, then people would know exactly what they require and I think that would ruin that feeling. I like the mysterious feeling but at the same time I dislike the rng aspect that causes it so I understand your reasoning very well. However I’d rather keep rng and not have a set recipe.
- It has only been a month since the game launched and even less since people started trying to get precursors. The price should stabilize shortly.
- Players with a legendary are currently positively received and that is not going to change.
- You keep saying you want to be tested with skill. You have to differentiate farming for karma, badges, tokens, whatever, and skill. Farming for x materials is much closer to farming the gold for buying the precursor than it is to a test of skill. So just say you want a set recipe.
- A real test of skill (killing a hard boss) will definitely be too easy. This is fairly obvious if you think about it.

What about if, to get a precursor weapon from the mystic forge it took 4 gifts from the dungeons? That’s 2000 dungeon tokens. Or more tokens than is needed for a full set of exotic dungeon armor + 2 1 hand weapons.

I don’t favor this idea but I think it would be an acceptable solution. Of course the down side is that those gifts are used elsewhere in the creation process for legendary weapons.

This would put it in the neighborhood of 20-30 hours to obtain a precursor and still be fun depending on your view of the dungeons. More importantly the price would be constant and no RNG would be involved.

Anyways. This is a well thought out post by Tomcat. I just don’t get why people are so stuck on the idea of having the only way to get the precursor being from RNG or grinding for gold to buy one on the market. They seem so afraid to change the system to actually make it fun.

2000 tokens is not even close to the value of a precursor. 1 gift from every dungeon is probably not enough. But again, that’s a boring solution in my opinion. The one with the shards above your post is much better. I’d improve it this way:
Pieces drop ~5% of the time. They drop rarely because they’d ruin the whole getting new weapons from the forge thing otherwise. With a very large amount of tries it will always be close to 5%. Need a large amount of pieces to get a random precursor.
What this achieves:
Let’s say the current precursor chance means you have to spend 500g worth of weapons to get a precursor, on average. What shards would do is that if you spend 800-1000g you should have enough shards to get one. This way the rng element stays, but for those very unlucky people there is a guarantee that they’ll get it, albeit at a loss. I’m not sure what effect this would have on the prices to be honest but it sounds like a fun system.

As I said, I don’t favor that idea and it wasn’t all that refined to begin with.

My personal favorite idea is to make unique events that happen very rarely as in once a week or even less, two weeks, or a month that would reward players for completing it progress towards creating their precursor weapon somehow. These unique events would have to have a high chance of failure unlike events do now, as well.

Picture zone wide events where multiple objectives need to be met in different areas of the map at the same time with lots of champion bosses and so on.

It would address several issues. Keeping the “cost” constant, keeping it fun, and keeping it unique.

Also since the game has released I’ve kind of been disappointed at the lack of truly unique zone events. All the events in the game happen routinely at certain times so it would be awesome if there were some events that we couldn’t predict exactly when the would happen.

So it would address that issue, too.

Doesn’t make much sense that getting a precursor can cost more and/or be harder to get then all the other mats combined.

Thank you everyone for the insight.

@Wahaha.7938

Yes I would like it to be a test of “skill”. One does have to be skillful in order to grind out that amount of karma and gold (+other ingredients) in order to obtain the finial legendary weapon.

However, what I don’t consider skill is dumping weapons into the forge in hopes of a chance at a precursor. Which, next to random world drops, is the only way currently to obtain them. Yes, one can buy them, but where did they come from? Most likely the mystic forge. Which when one person can earn a precursor in 1 try vs thousands… it’s no longer skill but dumb luck. And again, I even hesitate buying from the TP because of the exploits in the past. I would hate to “support” someone who obtained it through an illegitimate means or “support” the people who have it monopolized.

I would like to keep it rare, but not make the process random of getting it. Yes the forge is mysterious, but when it comes down to the “pinnacle of weaponry” (as stated in the video below). I disagree with leaving ~25% of the finial recipe purely to chance (not including the clovers).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdA4MlrF5mA

Yes it’s been a short amount of time and I would love to see the prices stabilize. However, as it sits with the current information and observations, in my opinion, it appears to be flawed.

For those players who’ve received their legendary, they were probably very supported by their guild. As of now, when I see a completed legendary I think it of an achievement of a group of people instead of the person wearing it (moot point). However, I have seen other make the those comments I have listed above, and my feelings are turning from achievement to exploit whenever I see someone with a precursor. I would hate to see it dive down that road. By seeing a legendary I would like to know they earned it through achievements and dedication (which most of the recipe requires) instead of blind luck or exploits.

You can keep the RNG aspect there— for those who like gambling, they could rely on RNG and hope they can convince Zommoros to spit out the precursor. It would have the same effect for those lucky enough to win the Lottery. On the other hand, the precursors could be changed to Account Bound, so that those who thought about stockpiling their exploited “investment” would have no other way to get rid of them except vendor it or salvage it for Ectos.

But for those who actually want to work for it, I think a reasonable alternative would be to have the precursor craftable, but require rare mats that are Account Bound, and can only be acquired from certain places, like obscure optional corners of an Explorable dungeon, or the end of a confusing jumping puzzle. Most PUGs are more likely to skip past these parts, but an organized group of friends might take on the challenge to reach and complete them. For example, the jumping puzzle in Ascalonian Catacombs. If anything, it may require more than one run to gather all the materials needed for the item.

In addition, those items would have to crafted in a special forge or crafting station in a tricky-to-reach location, like at the end of a jumping puzzle or an area that needs to be uncontested. The weaponcrafting discipline required to make it should be the same as the one required to build one of the Gifts the upgrades the precursor.

Since I’m currently working obtaining The Flameseeker Prophecies legendary shield, I’ll use The Chosen exotic precursor as an example.

First, the recipe for The Chosen needs to be obtained from somewhere. A dungeon vendor seems logical, but should both the Gift and the Recipe be found from the same vendor? I think not. In this case, since the Gift of Ascalon is from the Ascalonian Catacombs vendor, I think the recipe should be obtained from the Citadel of Flames vendor, since CoF is also located in Ascalon.

Now that the recipe is taken cared of, in order to build The Chosen it should require:

• 10 Orichalcum Shield Backings
• 10 Orichalcum Shield Bosses
• 1 Ascalonian Imbued Inscription, which requires:
  • 5 Orichalcum Plated Dowels
  • 5 Globs of Ectoplasm
  • 50 Piles of Crystalline Dust
  • 10 Memories of Ascalon, a rare item that could be found in obscure parts of any Explorable dungeon located in Ascalon.

However, it couldn’t just be crafted in any ordinary Weaponsmithing station. Instead, one would have to go to a special forge in Ascalon to craft it. A forge somewhere in Citadel of Flame would be an interesting place to craft this shield. Just an example there.

The rest of the items to create the Legendary seem pretty fine, despite being moderately grindy in nature, but I suppose there’s a reason why it’s called a Legendary. And in regards to the definition in the OP, it’s obviously known to someone because the Citadel of Flames vendor (in my example) believes that the precursor for it can be created with certain kinds of materials.

Obviously, you have to put in some amount of time to get some of the most flashy weapons out there.

Again I would like to thank everyone for their input.

An Update:

So today while reading through the threads I stumbled across this said by a Dev named LinseyMurdock

“I want you guys to think about this a bit. Seriously. Why would we ever want to systematically discourage you from chucking things into the Forge or salvaging them as often or as fast as you want to? It is SO SO SO (I can’t stress this enough) important for items to be leaving the economy at a healthy ratio to the items being created and entering the economy, otherwise, there would be no economy. Everything would pile up and pile up until everything was worth nothing because the supply would be endlessly higher than the demand.”

And the thread can be found here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/crafting/Mystic-forge-glitch-Unintentionally-suffering-from-DR/first#post390904

What I gather form this is that Anet believes (and makes sense) that the mystic forge is an essential part of the economy because dumping excess items in, and removing them from the game, is directly connected with keeping the economy under control.

OK, I get that. I also understand that precursors are probably the #1 source of dumping materials into the forge. Having a fixed recipe may not be the best idea because it will let those excess weapons pile up in the TP.

So how do we adapt and still use the Mystic Forge?

The current ratio of precursors produced is just a killer for a player’s moral. Which again leads to either stopping or buying it from the trading post. Since the precursors on the trading post came from the forge in the first place, it just ends up being a downward spiral.

My Thoughts:

This will “kitten” people off, but I see it a two step solution:
1. Raise the drop rate for dumping in lvl 80 Rares to 1-2%
and
Raise the Drop rate for dumping in lvl 80 Exotics to 5-10%
(since 5 cheap rares roughly equal 1 cheap exotic)

2. Make precursors account bound.

This will not settle with those controlling and profiting from precursors. But what this will do is insure that each person who is going for their legendary must contribute to helping the economy. Having a higher drop rate will make it more “common” but it will also raise a player’s moral and happiness because it doesn’t look like some impossible challenge. (well it’s not suppose to be easy) Ok fine, my example has 10% for exotics, but this is just an example to try to get on the right path while appeasing the most amount of people. It’s not what I would call “easy” just “easier” than what it is now. Plus if it were to be “easier” (higher % drop) more people would go for it, and because they must use the mystic forge to obtain it (if it was account bount), it would lead me to believe more excess weapons would be dumped out of the economy.

This will also let people know that the precursor they get, and other are getting weren’t tainted from the exploits. Because each player must get their own. Are their still exploits that could let people get them? Possibly, but they won’t be able to profit from them because they are account bound.

This will also appease those who like the “gambling” aspect and want to keep it.

Another option was to create some type of “shards” (as mentioned earlier in the thread) that would be rewarded for failed attempts. (like 30%?) After a number of shards have been gathered, one could trade them in for a precursor or somehow have it increase their chances. This also looks like a good idea, but they would need to implement a lot more things to get it up and rolling than just modify what they already have.

Because of what I have listed, I’ve now arrived at:

Make precursors account bound
Increase the drop chance

Any Thoughts? And please read through the thread, there is a lot of good stuff and I really don’t want to have to repeat myself on why we’re discussing this.

Edit:
Actually a set recipe could call for X number of exotic lvl 80s or rares thus giving us a set goal while still taking items out of the economy… however would their be a price spike in the weapons… most likely… could people farm them and craft them? Yes… Again I’m just throwing out suggestions…