(edited by clay.7849)
A call to action: emergent play/getting the most out of GW2
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Um. Hit level 80 and go get your exotics with karma/tokens/gold. Congatz, max gear. Now, decide on your rune set for customization. Then, sigils for your weps. Sigils can create some intense combos that really help against certain situations. I haven’t run one dungeon where gear was the problem. It was the player’s skill that led to wipes.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
I’m not sure what skills you are referring to. We are talking about gear grind. As such, we aren’t talking about skills. It is kind of the whole point here.
However, the idea behind adding vertical progression is to add depth or variety – hopefully without adding complexity.
It does neither, in fact it does the opposite. It does nothing for depth and actively removes variety. I don’t see how people can’t see this. Look at WoW. How much content can you meaningfully participate in in WoW out of its total available content? How much content exists in WoW that is 100% obsolete? Let me tell you – the entire end game of Vanilla, BC, Lich King, and Cataclysm. Even when you level a new character, it’s all bypassed because it’s useless. The only thing that isn’t useless is the most recent content. Morever, there’s a ridiculously huge gap in “power” at each threshold creating ludicrous number ranges and inequality. At level 60, you are wearing ilevel 60 gear and have 5-6000 health. At level 85 you are wearing ilevel 300 gear and have 30-40000 health. Flagrantly stupid – this is what having a gear grind does to a game.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
I believe it may be in your best interest to work on your reading comprehension. I also suggest that you accept that different people have different opinions about progression. I accept that you prefer horizontal and that is fine, but don’t tell me that I am wrong for preferring vertical progression.
But you are wrong if you think it is beneficial to the game, because it adds power creep. I’ll leave this here for you.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
I’m not sure what skills you are referring to. We are talking about gear grind. As such, we aren’t talking about skills. It is kind of the whole point here.
However, the idea behind adding vertical progression is to add depth or variety – hopefully without adding complexity.
It does neither, in fact it does the opposite. It does nothing for depth and actively removes variety. I don’t see how people can’t see this. Look at WoW. How much content can you meaningfully participate in in WoW out of its total available content? How much content exists in WoW that is 100% obsolete? Let me tell you – the entire end game of Vanilla, BC, Lich King, and Cataclysm. Even when you level a new character, it’s all bypassed because it’s useless. The only thing that isn’t useless is the most recent content. This is what having a gear grind does to a game.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
Nope. I mean to say horizontal. My bad. Fixing now.
I believe it may be in your best interest to work on your reading comprehension. I also suggest that you accept that different people have different opinions about progression. I accept that you prefer horizontal and that is fine, but don’t tell me that I am wrong for preferring vertical progression.
But you are wrong if you think it is beneficial to the game, because it adds power creep. I’ll leave this here for you.
I am sorry, but I am at work on lunch break and can’t really watch a video.
However, I did not say that it is beneficial to the game. I think it could be beneficial, but would require a lot of tweaking which is unrealistic. I think the game is good as is, with it’s current state of progression. I have Fractals with Ascended gear which is good for me, for now at least.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
I’m not sure what skills you are referring to. We are talking about gear grind. As such, we aren’t talking about skills. It is kind of the whole point here.
However, the idea behind adding vertical progression is to add depth or variety – hopefully without adding complexity.
It does neither, in fact it does the opposite. It does nothing for depth and actively removes variety. I don’t see how people can’t see this. Look at WoW. How much content can you meaningfully participate in in WoW out of its total available content? How much content exists in WoW that is 100% obsolete? Let me tell you – the entire end game of Vanilla, BC, Lich King, and Cataclysm. Even when you level a new character, it’s all bypassed because it’s useless. The only thing that isn’t useless is the most recent content. This is what having a gear grind does to a game.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
Nope. I mean to say horizontal. My bad. Fixing now.
Lol, sorry – not paying enough attention to peoples’ names.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.
If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.
You just described the current system in place. Thank you.
And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?
Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game. Gw1 was not horizontal.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.
If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.
You just described the current system in place. Thank you.
And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?
Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game.
That’s why horizontal shouldn’t be about making things easier. It should be about adding things that are more interesting. Or, by creating something that takes more skill but is more efficient.
I agree, adding badly designed horizontal progression is just vertical progression in disguise – but that is not the case for everything that is deemed horizontal.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.
If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.
You just described the current system in place. Thank you.
And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?
Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game.
That’s why horizontal shouldn’t be about making things easier. It should be about adding things that are more interesting. Or, by creating something that takes more skill but is more efficient.
I agree, adding badly designed horizontal progression is just vertical progression in disguise – but that is not the case for everything that is deemed horizontal.
This is where I ask for pertinent examples of horizontal progression games in either rpg or mmo genres.
Not saying true horizontal is bad, but I don’t see many examples of it doing well in the genre.
What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.
News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.
As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.
Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.
The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.
Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.
Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?
In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.
If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.
You just described the current system in place. Thank you.
And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?
Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game.
That’s why horizontal shouldn’t be about making things easier. It should be about adding things that are more interesting. Or, by creating something that takes more skill but is more efficient.
I agree, adding badly designed horizontal progression is just vertical progression in disguise – but that is not the case for everything that is deemed horizontal.
This is where I ask for pertinent examples of horizontal progression games in either rpg or mmo genres.
Not saying true horizontal is bad, but I don’t see many examples of it doing well in the genre.
This post, a few up, has some examples: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-call-to-action-emergent-play-getting-the-most-out-of-GW2/page/2#post1861100
Also, I know it isn’t MMO’s, but FPS games are great at this. As you play the game, you get progressively different gear. None of it is “better” than what you start with. In fact, a lot of starter gear is still considered the best gear in a lot of FPS games.
The same could be done with MMO’s if you went about it the right way. Like, what if you had to complete a series of quests in order to unlock each new weapon in GW2 instead of just being able to buy them off the trader? Of course, I’m sure someone could come up with something better.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Here’s a little lesson from every business that ever succeeded.
If you aren’t customizing and tailoring your product to what your consumers want, you’re gonna have a bad time.
So, no, not the players (consumers) fault.
Platinum – Guardian
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.
To be Hones, you talk about raids, but how about the squad from commander, or just regulard RAID groups are added? I like to see everyones HP in small screens if I wish, or down states like in PVP, or something like it.
That way coordinating would be so much easier and it just LACKS that option.
A lot of nice changes that need adapting to, but its just lacking stuff as well, because a group just isnt going to cut it for a legion event, or any event in that case imo.
I’d love that. I’d like to say “Ongoing PvE zerg, auto-join if you want lots of blue dots to follow around the map”, but I’m not paying 100g for the privilege to do so. I think that is a major obstacle towards the sort of zeitgeist the OP describes.
User was infracted for being awesome.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.
You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.
User was infracted for being awesome.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.
You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.
Cacophonous is an unpleasant sound which is a preference, which is subjective. What qualifies as Cacophonous is subjective, in other words.
Objectively, you could state a sound is high pitched, but you cannot objectively say whether the high pitch qualifies as good music.
Anyway, we are going off topic, and I am sorry for that.
Back to the main topic. The OP wants the player to change, but it’d be a poor business strategy for ANet to expect that. However, it is fine for you to suggest this to players and see if anyone comes along. I think that this game is great, because it allows people to play how they want. Some want to farm materials, some want to run fractals, some want to PvP and some want to run Dynamic Events (and many other things). To each their own.
I should have said dissonant. You are right, cacophonous is a more subjective term.
User was infracted for being awesome.
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.
You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.
Yes, unfortunately, it is a double edged sword because much of what we want to talk about is going to bring in the fact that it is experienced by humans, and without the “experiential” part of anything it ceases to become important. Therefore, it does look like everything we interact with is subject to subjective reasoning. However, I would ask you this:
Does it hurt when you get hit with a hammer in the knee? It is a subjective thing to be sure, but we all know that getting hit in the knee with a hammer almost always causes pain, so it would be a bit fallacious to say that someone, given normal health, wouldn’t experience pain when getting hit with a hammer.
Same thing with music. We know that music with harmony is objectively “more pleasant” than music without harmony – and especially compared to music that is discordant.
Of course, it is easy to dismiss it by saying that you don’t think so. But, I am willing to bet, that we can even find scientific studies of the brain that confirm that some things stimulate our brain better than other things.
Is this objectively better? I would say yes. Of course, really we are getting into a long and never ending philosophical battle that has been waged for centuries, so it is no place for us to try and figure it out on these forums.
I don’t think the FPS discussion is winnable by either side, had it a month back or so with some friends and came to an impasse. One argument goes “Real world guns, which some fps games model their weapons after, have definite, and measurable advantages to one another. these can’t, or won’t, always be modeled by the games they are in” Counterpoint is “Then the argument is moot”. Another is that you can google best FPS weapon for certain games, and in certain games they are unlocked, in others they aren’t. I can’t really argue and win it, so I will give you non mmo fps games have horizontal progression sometimes. MMOFPS or third person, does have vertical progression for weapons. Horizontal works great for pvp, but not so much pve. One of the best selling fps games, Borderlands, relies heavily on illusory vertical progression. It’s also why you don’t see huge drawn out pve parts of most shooters that don’t have either a strong story or vertical prog. Without the skill challenge of other players, it boils down to shoot same mob in head with same weapon one million times.
GW1, again…. as I was stating earlier, that game has the illusion of horizontal progression, because the pve parts of it were made easier by having certain skills or just couldn’t be completed unless you had certain skills. This is shallow vertical progression which gives the illusion of horizontal. Certain skills just made the game better or easier to play. This is also a form of gating, ie “Want to get here? You need this this and this that you get from here”
One thing that GW2 needs that GW1 never did, or didn’t need as much of, especially later, was concurrent pve players to sell the idea of a living populated world. To get a living populated world, you need a carrot (and an exceedingly simple, non time consuming to make one) that keeps players in your world. Enter vertical progression and the treadmill. One thing that horizontal can’t do is make you feel like you need it. It’s great to have in your game because it make people happy and less stressed, but it doesn’t make people log in everyday. And as a mmo, you need to, otherwise you’re dead.
I have nothing against horizontal progression, or games with that mechanic in it. I do hate the treadmills of other mmorpgs and it’s one reason why I am here. But it’s hard to make people log in to your pve game concurrently without a hook. Horizontal makes players happy, but it’s no hook for pve.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.
How do you define superior?
If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective
If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).
But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.
It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.
Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.
Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.
I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.
You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.
Cacophonous is an unpleasant sound which is a preference, which is subjective. What qualifies as Cacophonous is subjective, in other words.
Objectively, you could state a sound is high pitched, but you cannot objectively say whether the high pitch qualifies as good music.
Anyway, we are going off topic, and I am sorry for that.
Back to the main topic. The OP wants the player to change, but it’d be a poor business strategy for ANet to expect that. However, it is fine for you to suggest this to players and see if anyone comes along. I think that this game is great, because it allows people to play how they want. Some want to farm materials, some want to run fractals, some want to PvP and some want to run Dynamic Events (and many other things). To each their own.
I agree 100% that it is ridiculous to think that it is the player’s faults that they don’t play the game the way ANet intended us to play the game – just like it would be ridiculous if pizza makers intended us to start with the crust and we all start on the opposite side.
It is no one’s fault, least of all, the player’s for doing what they want to do.
I don’t think the FPS discussion is winnable by either side, had it a month back or so with some friends and came to an impasse. One argument goes “Real world guns, which some fps games model their weapons after, have definite, and measurable advantages to one another. these can’t, or won’t, always be modeled by the games they are in” Counterpoint is “Then the argument is moot”. Another is that you can google best FPS weapon for certain games, and in certain games they are unlocked, in others they aren’t. I can’t really argue and win it, so I will give you non mmo fps games have horizontal progression sometimes. MMOFPS or third person, does have vertical progression for weapons. Horizontal works great for pvp, but not so much pve. One of the best selling fps games, Borderlands, relies heavily on illusory vertical progression. It’s also why you don’t see huge drawn out pve parts of most shooters that don’t have either a strong story or vertical prog. Without the skill challenge of other players, it boils down to shoot same mob in head with same weapon one million times.
GW1, again…. as I was stating earlier, that game has the illusion of horizontal progression, because the pve parts of it were made easier by having certain skills or just couldn’t be completed unless you had certain skills. This is shallow vertical progression which gives the illusion of horizontal. certain skills just made the game better or easier to play. This is also a form of gating, ie “Want to get here? You need this this and this that you get from here”
One thing that GW2 needs that GW1 never did, or didn’t need as much of, especially later, was concurrent pve players to sell the idea of a living populated world. To get a living populated world, you need a carrot (and an exceedingly simple, non time consuming to make one) that keeps players in your world. Enter vertical progression and the treadmill. One thing that horizontal can’t do is make you feel like you need it. It’s great to have in your game because it make people happy and less stressed, but it doesn’t make people log in everyday. And as a mmo, you need to, otherwise you’re dead.
I have nothing against horizontal progression, or games with that mechanic in it. I do hate the treadmills of other mmorpgs and it’s one reason why I am here. But it’s hard to make people log in to your pve game concurrently without a hook. Horizontal makes players happy, but it’s no hook for pve.
I think the PvE argument is a bad one, because there will always be a best way to beat AI once your figure out how to do it. This shouldn’t be used to prove anything, IMO.
It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.
I dunno how others feel about this, but i’d love to see an endgame similar to WoW raids.
That’s why I play WoW – in addition to GW2.
I’m also finding that I spend less and less time in WoW and more in GW2, because I’m having more fun in GW2. Endgame raids aren’t needed, though I would like the DEs to get beefed up and expanded.
It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.
I think we are on two different wavelengths here. You are saying that the horizontal progression in GW1 was an illusion and that it was vertical because it helped making killing enemies easier.
This isn’t true until someone has figures out how to exploit the AI through a series of specific builds, etc.
This is something that is an emergent flaw in AI, not something that is an argument of why something was vertical or horizontal progression.
People use that same point to make all kinds of points about GW1 that aren’t true – except in the context of exploiting enemy AI, which is a not a problem with skills as much as it is a problem with enemy AI being exploitable.
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
Get it down to half health, however, and see the throng of players that show up. It’s like a party, and no one’s invited, but everyone’s here anyway.
Really, what you have are these huge zones, that take quite some time to cross on foot. Events typically happen in chains, that sometimes branch, but more often than not are simply pass/fails. There’s no cohesion; the Battle for Beetletun has nothing to do with the Secret in the Swamp, and the farmers and miners to the northeast are completely unconcerned about anyone else’s problems as long as they have a clean water reservoir.
Compare this to how sPvP is designed. Small maps. Every capture point is its own little event that never stops. The route for PvE should have been to take that idea, and begin scaling upwards. Give the enemy a hive mind, that sends out its units along paths, instead of just spawning them with a script. You can play a game of Civilization 4 or Starcraft with no human players, and simply watch the AI duke it out, so what I am talking about here is not a technical implausibility.
User was infracted for being awesome.
It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.
It’s like the force, it works on the weak-minded. Other players see right through it – and as the video game playing demographic gets older and more mature, they see through it more and more.
Why do you think there was such an outcry when ascended gear was introduced? Sure, it is fine the way we have it now, but if it turned into a legitimate gear treadmill, you would see a lot of people leave.
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.
I think we are on two different wavelengths here. You are saying that the horizontal progression in GW1 was an illusion and that it was vertical because it helped making killing enemies easier.
This isn’t true until someone has figures out how to exploit the AI through a series of specific builds, etc.
This is something that is an emergent flaw in AI, not something that is an argument of why something was vertical or horizontal progression.
People use that same point to make all kinds of points about GW1 that aren’t true – except in the context of exploiting enemy AI, which is a not a problem with skills as much as it is a problem with enemy AI being exploitable.
Made dealing with content easier or possible, be that ai or anything else in pve. Was it never easier to deal with mobs easier or more efficiently with the skills you acquired from playing the game, either from buying them or stealing them or however they were acquired? Would the pve portions of the game been harder, slower to progress through, or even completable, if you never acquired another skill other than what you had at character creation? If you didn’t have the right type of build or skill sets or dual class correctly, did this make content take longer, make it harder to complete?
A yes answer to any of these questions indicates some form of vertical progression, or a content gating, something that people say isn’t in GW1. And people get very defensive about it, I find it amusing.
It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.
It’s like the force, it works on the weak-minded. Other players see right through it – and as the video game playing demographic gets older and more mature, they see through it more and more.
Why do you think there was such an outcry when ascended gear was introduced? Sure, it is fine the way we have it now, but if it turned into a legitimate gear treadmill, you would see a lot of people leave.
I agree they do, hence why I’m here. But GW2 doesn’t have enough content otherwise, so the need for vertical progression, albeit a very shallow one.
Question: What are the main mechanics of GW2 that are different than GW1? (besides vert prog)
(edited by killcannon.2576)
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.
Warriors are those who choose to stand between their enemy and all that he loves or hold sacred
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.
And Anet broke it by making easy content give the best rewards. The players didn’t break it. If you have two sources of reward needed for game content, one easy and one progressively more difficult and time consuming, you do not make it intentionally harder on yourself to get those rewards.
In order to make the population spread out, they need to have a reason to, besides “Hey guys!! We need to do this because they want us to” I wish people would, but they won’t.
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.And Anet broke it by making easy content give the best rewards. The players didn’t break it. If you have two sources of reward needed for game content, one easy and one progressively more difficult and time consuming, you do not make it intentionally harder on yourself to get those rewards.
In order to make the population spread out, they need to have a reason to, besides “Hey guys!! We need to do this because they want us to” I wish people would, but they won’t.
IMO, it’s not that easy content give the best rewards, it’s that there is no cap on players entering an event.
For example, Teq is super easy and has great rewards. However, have you ever tried to kill Teq solo? I imagine it’d be near impossible. The reason it is easy is because 100’s of people go to kill it. If the player count capped at 20 or so, then it’d be fun and challenging with a great reward.
Anyway, as it is, there is no cap on events and therefore the events with the best rewards become the easiest to complete.
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.And Anet broke it by making easy content give the best rewards. The players didn’t break it. If you have two sources of reward needed for game content, one easy and one progressively more difficult and time consuming, you do not make it intentionally harder on yourself to get those rewards.
In order to make the population spread out, they need to have a reason to, besides “Hey guys!! We need to do this because they want us to” I wish people would, but they won’t.
IMO, it’s not that easy content give the best rewards, it’s that there is no cap on players entering an event.
For example, Teq is super easy and has great rewards. However, have you ever tried to kill Teq solo? I imagine it’d be near impossible. The reason it is easy is because 100’s of people go to kill it. If the player count capped at 20 or so, then it’d be fun and challenging with a great reward.
Anyway, as it is, there is no cap on events and therefore the events with the best rewards become the easiest to complete.
Two problems with capping players though. Either you leave it open world and the players that don’t get there in time are SOL, or you instance it and it doesn’t change world population coverage at all. So, either screw players or there is no actual change to what’s wrong in the first place, which is an unbalanced population. Limiting the players to the content also sorta goes against the whole idea of the events in the first place, which is to see a ton of people doing things. Once you start limiting player numbers in open world pve, the idea of MMO goes out the door.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.And Anet broke it by making easy content give the best rewards. The players didn’t break it. If you have two sources of reward needed for game content, one easy and one progressively more difficult and time consuming, you do not make it intentionally harder on yourself to get those rewards.
In order to make the population spread out, they need to have a reason to, besides “Hey guys!! We need to do this because they want us to” I wish people would, but they won’t.
IMO, it’s not that easy content give the best rewards, it’s that there is no cap on players entering an event.
For example, Teq is super easy and has great rewards. However, have you ever tried to kill Teq solo? I imagine it’d be near impossible. The reason it is easy is because 100’s of people go to kill it. If the player count capped at 20 or so, then it’d be fun and challenging with a great reward.
Anyway, as it is, there is no cap on events and therefore the events with the best rewards become the easiest to complete.
Two problems with capping players though. Either you leave it open world and the players that don’t get there in time are SOL, or you instance it and it doesn’t change world population coverage at all. So, either screw players or there is no actual change to what’s wrong in the first place, which is an unbalanced population.
Oh, I definitely agree. I suppose I wasn’t clear, I do not think that a cap should be randomly added, I was just saying the fights would be more interesting if somehow there was a cap. It’s a problem in the entire design philosophy, and I cannot think of a great solution for it. One possibility is to give everything give the same reward based on time taken to complete. Then there would be no incentive to do any particular event. Not sure if that’d work very well, but meh who knows.
I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.
Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.
This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.
This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.
This is exactly my point clay and why I have made this thread and the Tunnel Vision thread.
This is something that needs to be addressed.
Should it be by Anet.?Maybe to a degree. Some form of reintroduction to how the DE system is suppose to work could be put out by Anet.
Should it be by the player base? Most definitely. Since guilds have the most direct contact with a large number of players it should be on them to do something.
My suggestion has been to make DE raid groups. Others may have other ideas that pursue looking into.
Getting more folks into the high-end zones is something that needs to be done. I don’t mean the high-end zones with dragons, but zones like Fireheart Rise for example. Where I see outposts being over run left and right out there. I know since they are in the outpost that these are at the very least chain events, but they need bodies to find out. Too many of them can not be soloed.
This is how they were designed; on purpose. They were meant for group participation, but with these zones being ghost towns it is nearly impossible at this time to know.And Anet broke it by making easy content give the best rewards. The players didn’t break it. If you have two sources of reward needed for game content, one easy and one progressively more difficult and time consuming, you do not make it intentionally harder on yourself to get those rewards.
In order to make the population spread out, they need to have a reason to, besides “Hey guys!! We need to do this because they want us to” I wish people would, but they won’t.
IMO, it’s not that easy content give the best rewards, it’s that there is no cap on players entering an event.
For example, Teq is super easy and has great rewards. However, have you ever tried to kill Teq solo? I imagine it’d be near impossible. The reason it is easy is because 100’s of people go to kill it. If the player count capped at 20 or so, then it’d be fun and challenging with a great reward.
Anyway, as it is, there is no cap on events and therefore the events with the best rewards become the easiest to complete.
Two problems with capping players though. Either you leave it open world and the players that don’t get there in time are SOL, or you instance it and it doesn’t change world population coverage at all. So, either screw players or there is no actual change to what’s wrong in the first place, which is an unbalanced population.
Oh, I definitely agree. I suppose I wasn’t clear, I do not think that a cap should be randomly added, I was just saying the fights would be more interesting if somehow there was a cap. It’s a problem in the entire design philosophy, and I cannot think of a great solution for it. One possibility is to give everything give the same reward based on time taken to complete. Then there would be no incentive to do any particular event. Not sure if that’d work very well, but meh who knows.
The only idea I have is tying the events into zone spanning meta chains, with a greater and greater reward given for being involved in the meta. Given, most extensive meta chains in game now break easily, and the code for determining reward would be difficult to implement. But it would fix zone population, give a more epic feeling to the bosses, strengthen the community, and spread out rewards. I don’t know, but the state of the game is close to breaking imo.
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