Guild Wars 2

Let me open this with an interview from GameBreakers. Please watch; important for this thread. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/good-for-noobs/ You can also read his article just below the video.
In this interview you hear the form someone who specializes in PC games and games normally found on consoles.
These games have an end. They reach this end in a certain amount of time as shown at this link. http://www.game-length.com/
As you can see from the above link these games do not last over a long period of time and appeal to many people like the above interview shows.
MUDs the precursor to MMOs which are called at Wikipedia “multiplayer real-time virtual world usually text-based.”
A virtual world is per Wikipedia – “an online community that takes the form of a computer-based simulated environment through which users interact with one another and use and create objects.” These games become in sense a living world that is ongoing and has no end and no “true” end.
Most gamers that grew up on Atari, Nintendo and Play Station became true consumers in the late ’90 and the earlier part of the 2000s. Due to this influx into the market place World of Warcraft came into being using aspects of MMO fore runners like EverQuest and Ultima Online but at the same time brought in elements that those that grew up playing console games liked. This merging caused this game to flourish and become one of the most popular games like this and caused the creation of many others that followed this model.
The problem is for those that had been in MUDs and the earlier MMOs this model turned away form those elements that made it popular to those user. To those users Guild Wars 2 is a return in a way to how MMOs were before WoW in their eyes destroyed the MMO genre.
True it is not a full return since for example this is no official Roleplaying server which many could be found in EQ for example, but it is still a walk down memory lane to a degree that has appealed to many of them.
At the same time it is caused resentment those that grew up on console games, WoW and PC games that in really nothing more then more elaborate console games. It is a resentment that was originally felt by those that came from MUDs and early MMOs.
As a result we have the many threads that denounce GW2. Most reflect the attitude and views of those that grew up on console games and WoW. Expecting and end or a treadmill. Expecting that after 100 hours of game play there to be a purpose.
That is not how true MMOs are meant to be played. They are their own world that you live and journey through as new things appear time to time.

I don’t agree with this sentiment at all, GW2 is NOT like Ultima online or Everquest. GW2 pretty much does everything in it’s power to make grouping irrelevant. Which is completely the opposite of Everquest.

GW2 is mostly a themepark MMO, with attractions, and while the dungeon running is still a populated part of the game, WvW is the main attraction for many players. WvW is in a fundamentally different format from the rest of a game, more sandbox than themepark. And it proves that players want to effect their environment and they want the environment to effect them. It proves that players will group together because they want to achieve something, whether it be attacking a stronghold or running supplies to upgrade strongholds. I think it’s time Anet takes the training wheels off.

As for your “gear treadmill” comment, the players want what the “gear treadmill” represents, Progression. GW2 is a themepark where “everything is endgame” and you just keep going on the same rides over and over again, with no progression to speak of.

The fundamental concept of “everything is endgame” is solid, look at Battlefield and Call of duty, people spend hours and hours fighting each other. Why? There’s next to no progression.

Console gaming has nothing to do with why people are mad about this game.

I’m a pretty heavy console gamer and I also play almost every MMO that comes out, I dont think either has anything to do with the other.

First of all, most people that are hardcore console gamers dont play PC games.

WoW wasnt popular because it appealed to console gamers, WoW was popular because they took all of the popular elements of the MMOs that came before it and dropped most of the stuff that people hated.

For example, before WoW most MMOs were serious grinds and it took a year plus to reach level cap. In MMOs before WoW most MMOs didnt have mob tagging and you had to compete with farmers and spawn campers to get items or kill mobs. Before WoW there wasnt BoE/BoP gear you could resell your gear which made crafting actually valuable. Before WoW most MMOs werent solo friendly, you had to group with people to succeed. Before WoW games had harsh death penalties, corpse looting. Heck you could de-level in FFXI from dying. WoW got rid of all those things.

WoW also killed MMO etiquette. Pre-WoW you had to obey server etiquette or get blackballed and not be able to advance your character. People used to get kitten off if you talked in the wrong channels. Blizzard basically made an easily accessible MMO for their already established B-Net base, which is BTW one of the most obnoxious communities ever. BNet was already like 4chan before WoW came out.

Blizzard’s negative contribution to MMOs IMHO is how they ruined MMO etiquette. Act like a jerk and ninja? Who cares! You can even get banned make a new account and be back to level cap in a couple months at most and that was in vanilla WoW when they still had harder leveling.

I’d wager that most of the people that play this game arent even old enough to really have played MUDs or EQ1 so I dont really see that as the issue either.

What people are mad about with this game is the game was sold as not having vertical progression/gear treadmill. Most people that have played WoW are tired of running on that treadmill after doing it for 8 years. Its not that they expect an end to it they are tired of running on it and came to this game based on the concept that this game would end that, the trinity and bring back DAoC style world pvp.

Then later they (ANet) went back on their word. And most arent really mad about that but they would like to actually see some of the bugs and balance issues fixed before they start pushing people back onto the treadmill.

I dont really see a huge difference personally between this game and WoW. Frankly speaking WoW has better dungeons and raids than this game.

And the real problem is people were able to ‘beat’ this game too quickly (even ANet admitted that they didnt expect peopel to have full exotics that quickly) which forced them to bring out fractrals faster than they thought they would have to.

Now top this all off with the one time event that screwed over a bunch of people and you see why people are mad.

If they really want to fix the game they should do some serious bug fixing/rebalancing and get the pvp ladder system up and running. Professions like necro & ranger are kinda suffering. Thats a good start. Open up some of the other zones and get people out of L.A. Give people other options to get fractals and fix the ridiculous RNG in the game.

Metalripper.5406:

I don’t agree with this sentiment at all, GW2 is NOT like Ultima online or Everquest. GW2 pretty much does everything in it’s power to make grouping irrelevant. Which is completely the opposite of Everquest.

GW2 is mostly a themepark MMO, with attractions, and while the dungeon running is still a populated part of the game, WvW is the main attraction for many players. WvW is in a fundamentally different format from the rest of a game, more sandbox than themepark. And it proves that players want to effect their environment and they want the environment to effect them. It proves that players will group together because they want to achieve something, whether it be attacking a stronghold or running supplies to upgrade strongholds. I think it’s time Anet takes the training wheels off.

As for your “gear treadmill” comment, the players want what the “gear treadmill” represents, Progression. GW2 is a themepark where “everything is endgame” and you just keep going on the same rides over and over again, with no progression to speak of.

The fundamental concept of “everything is endgame” is solid, look at Battlefield and Call of duty, people spend hours and hours fighting each other. Why? There’s next to no progression.

I get what you’re saying metalripper, but try this: keeping the level cap fixed will allow players to max out all classes, this encourages newcomers.

Check my post out concerning the issue of solving the treadmill problem and introducing true horizontal progression. It involves keeping bosses at a fixed level wherever difficulty you want to place them and then artificially scaling down your character level and gear in order to simulate the added difficulty from a treadmill progression boss. The only difference is you wouldn’t be fracturing the lower levels by continuously raising the bar on stats (which in reality are only #’s). You can then scale your stats back up as a loot drop and this serves as a mechanic to simulate the feeling you get when you acquire ever-higher gear such as in WoW.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Solving-the-issue-of-vertical-progression/first#post968528

oflow.2157:

Console gaming has nothing to do with why people are mad about this game.

I’m a pretty heavy console gamer and I also play almost every MMO that comes out, I dont think either has anything to do with the other.

First of all, most people that are hardcore console gamers dont play PC games.

WoW wasnt popular because it appealed to console gamers, WoW was popular because they took all of the popular elements of the MMOs that came before it and dropped most of the stuff that people hated.

For example, before WoW most MMOs were serious grinds and it took a year plus to reach level cap. In MMOs before WoW most MMOs didnt have mob tagging and you had to compete with farmers and spawn campers to get items or kill mobs. Before WoW there wasnt BoE/BoP gear you could resell your gear which made crafting actually valuable. Before WoW most MMOs werent solo friendly, you had to group with people to succeed. Before WoW games had harsh death penalties, corpse looting. Heck you could de-level in FFXI from dying. WoW got rid of all those things.

WoW also killed MMO etiquette. Pre-WoW you had to obey server etiquette or get blackballed and not be able to advance your character. People used to get kitten off if you talked in the wrong channels. Blizzard basically made an easily accessible MMO for their already established B-Net base, which is BTW one of the most obnoxious communities ever. BNet was already like 4chan before WoW came out.

Blizzard’s negative contribution to MMOs IMHO is how they ruined MMO etiquette. Act like a jerk and ninja? Who cares! You can even get banned make a new account and be back to level cap in a couple months at most and that was in vanilla WoW when they still had harder leveling.

I’d wager that most of the people that play this game arent even old enough to really have played MUDs or EQ1 so I dont really see that as the issue either.

What people are mad about with this game is the game was sold as not having vertical progression/gear treadmill. Most people that have played WoW are tired of running on that treadmill after doing it for 8 years. Its not that they expect an end to it they are tired of running on it and came to this game based on the concept that this game would end that, the trinity and bring back DAoC style world pvp.

Then later they (ANet) went back on their word. And most arent really mad about that but they would like to actually see some of the bugs and balance issues fixed before they start pushing people back onto the treadmill.

I dont really see a huge difference personally between this game and WoW. Frankly speaking WoW has better dungeons and raids than this game.

And the real problem is people were able to ‘beat’ this game too quickly (even ANet admitted that they didnt expect peopel to have full exotics that quickly) which forced them to bring out fractrals faster than they thought they would have to.

Now top this all off with the one time event that screwed over a bunch of people and you see why people are mad.

If they really want to fix the game they should do some serious bug fixing/rebalancing and get the pvp ladder system up and running. Professions like necro & ranger are kinda suffering. Thats a good start. Open up some of the other zones and get people out of L.A. Give people other options to get fractals and fix the ridiculous RNG in the game.

You raise some valid points and I feel they can be added into what I have stated making an even better snapshot of the overall situation. Neither view I feel is wrong and so I feel you have brought more into this and I thank you

I tried defining the term MMORPG for a class in which we were attempting to assemble a book on MMORPG’s, with each student assigned a specific chapter.

What I ended up with was this:

If it’s a role playing game, where you create a character, and your character interacts with other players’ characters…
If it’s online, and takes advantage of the internet’s social constructs…
If it’s multiplayer, and you interact with others regularly (they don’t just watch you do stuff)…
If it’s massive, and its audience is in at least the thousands…
And if it’s Massively Multiplayer and there’s no hard cap on the total number of players who can play the game, and you can interact with people while exploring the virtual landscape…

Then it’s an MMORPG.
And for any example that fails to meet all these criteria, if the developers or producers want to make the case for its inclusion, and if they can reasonably prove it to be an MMORPG, then it is so.

It’s the best I could come up with given the games that I visualized meeting the criteria and the ones I visualized not meeting the criteria.

Note that a game like the original Guild Wars or League of Legends only fails the Massively Multiplayer part when you consider that an instance of the game caps the players to groups of 10-24, thus the game “world” is rather small in that case. Guild Wars has its cities with plenty of players, but you areguably aren’t really exploring then… And its developers insisted that it wasn’t an MMORPG, so that point’s moot. LoL’s developers will probably tell you it’s not an RPG, because you don’t create a character, you pull from a list, and the decisions you make on leveling up don’t count as enough investment to make it “your character.”

but in any event, it’s a great talking point to start a debate, and it always leads to some nice discussions.

The dichotomy of PC vs. console games in general is an anachronism. There is no kind of game you can create for a PC that you cannot create for a console. Yes, coming up with a good controller interaction design is tricky without a keyboard, but the main reason for the impossibility of MMORPG on consoles was the immutability of the product. Current generation consoles feature a harddrive and patches, add-ons and DLC are well established as are extensive player networks. The only obstacle is probably you have to start early after a console launch to cash in while the console is still current. PCs are always backward compatible to some degree while console generations are usually mediocre at this at best.

MMORPGs on consoles arent an impossibility. FFXI, EQOA and DC Universe Online were all on consoles I played all three. EQOA actually had some of the best world events I’ve actually seen in any mmo.

The big issue like you said is how consoles update data. Sony/MS have to approve all the patches etc before they go live and they take forever to approve stuff. Games on PC can just be hotfixed on the fly.

@oflow
You make valid points but WoW did a lot of positives as well and increased the market significantly. There weren’t hundreds of thousands who subed to EQ1, UO etc. UO for example, I tried when it was new and had no clue what I was doing. No one would help and just ignored others who talked and asked for help. There wasn’t tons of people who played either. May have seemed that way because they didn’t have the tons of servers other mmo’s use now. Yes it was nice that the game was actually hard and the learning curve wasn’t forgiving, but that also drew people away too. EQ1 has/had a snobby community. Rarely anyone would help new people. They acted too good for noobs.

WoW also introduced a real end game raiding which obviously at one point 13 mil subs says it all. WoW made a mmo game which was easy for those who were new to mmos to play. Very easy to learn. But back to the end game raiding, that was truly amazing.

As for etiquette you are completely blind how people in EQ1 and UO treated people. Yeah there are differences but to say WoW ruined that is just stupid. Look at the age ranges and subs. 13 mil vs 100,000. Of course you are going to get more kiddish behaviors from a game that is 32476437834629 times more the people.

I agree about crafting though. The only ones that really benefit (WoW example) are those who can make consumables, but for gear, yeah at first you can make the gear needed to do heroics and 1 or 2 purple items, but that quickly gets outdated fast. Right now you can make ilvl 476 stuff that isn’t bop and most don’t need that stuff anymore.

Yes I suppose hardware constraints can impact what kind of game you can sell (like obviously an MMO couldn’t work for a console with no ability to connect to the internet)… I’m not sure it’s a PC vs. Console argument but rather the game itself.

I think my “resentment” (I think that’s a little strong of word) is more in what they said vs. what was delivered. I can hardly be upset when a game is advertised and sold as A and ends up to be A; it’s another when you get sold A, but it’s really more like B and not even a good B. The world is hardly dynamic. WvW feels more cheese than tactical not to mention the entire map and all things in it are not relevant towards winning as indicated in vids when they were showing off the system prior to game release. Ultimately, my actions are without consequence in the world which makes my time played even prior to the 100 hour threshold feel irrelevant. In a lot of ways, that’s why I didn’t like Skyrim as well; decisions really had no significant consequences. I won’t get into shooters as I think that has a mentality more like playing a sport than participating in a journey/experience. The hardware is definitely available to make a really dynamic game, they just decided to invest more of the 25GB on graphics over real world dynamics….

Let’s face it, GW2 is to GW like BF3 is to BF2; a shiny game that pales in comparison to its predecessor.

I’m sorry but console game expectations or MMO game expectations really have nothing to do with people’s dissatisfaction with the state of the game. It’s been clearly articulated that people were “expecting” the game to be and remain the one clearly articulated by Anet. That’s really the only issue in play here.

bojangles.6912:

As for etiquette you are completely blind how people in EQ1 and UO treated people. Yeah there are differences but to say WoW ruined that is just stupid. Look at the age ranges and subs. 13 mil vs 100,000. Of course you are going to get more kiddish behaviors from a game that is 32476437834629 times more the people.

I actually feel that this is one of oflow’s strongest points. Yes people trained people, harassed, and other things that are considered wrong. The thing is when reported these people suffered the consequences. In WoW they barely got a hand slap. Especially after year 3 of the game when their subs started to rise.

Also I need to point out a flaw in your sub snapshot.

At WoWs peak it was 30 million
At EQs peak it was 2 million.

Also you must note that EQ and UO were amongst the first true MMOs and the etiquette that was established in MUDs was still very present.

You also have to realize that for a MMO at the time of EQ 2 mil was though to be a best seller.

Also the average age in EQ at its peak was 28
While WoW at its peak the average age was 17.

More kids and console game generation players then those that were in MUDs

@Krosslite:

Not a bad overview, but I think it suffers from too much simplification and generalization…

Firstly, World of Warcraft was part of a broader design continuum. Before it hit the scene, the MMO field was pretty diverse. Before WoW even launched, there were several games that had broken the mold established by the genre’s antecedents. In fact, at the time, I considered WoW’s departures from the “conventional” model to be fairly conservative (much as I view GW2’s departures today).

So I don’t think this design amalgamation you cite can be so cleanly attributed with the success of the title. In fact, I think there’s a strong argument to be made that it wasn’t really that big a factor. Because a lot of subsequent MMOs tried to duplicate that very same formula, and then crashed.

I don’t think one can simply dismiss the following…
- 1. Blizzard’s nigh-impeccable reputation at the time.
- 2. The fact that the MMO was based on an established IP.
- 3. The fact that the IP was native to the medium and thus was already familiar to the target audience (gamers).
- 4. the cartoony “family friendly” aesthetic of the game.
…as potentially critical contributors to the title’s anomalous level of success.

As for this…

The problem is for those that had been in MUDs and the earlier MMOs this model turned away form those elements that made it popular to those user. To those users Guild Wars 2 is a return in a way to how MMOs were before WoW in their eyes destroyed the MMO genre.

Speaking as someone who was around and active in the MU* days, I’ve never seen GW2 as even remotely being a return to that approach to a virtual space. Not even close. There are other MMOs, past and present, that’ve come much, much closer.

True it is not a full return since for example this is no official Roleplaying server which many could be found in EQ for example, but it is still a walk down memory lane to a degree that has appealed to many of them.

It’s not a given that having an “official” roleplay server is a good thing for promoting a roleplay community. There are pros and cons to official vs. unofficial. Personally, I prefer the latter.

Finally, I think you’re setting up a false dichotomy with console gamer vs. immersionist (someone who favors a persistent virtual world). They aren’t either/or. I grew up as both, still like both, and get different things from what each has to offer. I’m definitely far more of an immersionist myself, but there’s a spectrum there.

I agree that for me, the purpose of an MMO is to create a believable virtual world – and that is why Guild Wars 2 failed for me. The game feels very compartmentalized. Separate game modes, the instant travel system, anti-competitive measures (no world PvP, instanced resources, etc) make GW2 a boring game for me. There’s simply nothing worthwhile to do. I didn’t expect a treadmill when I bought this game. But I did expect a much larger variety of game mechanics. UO had uninstanced player housing. SWG had single- and multi-person vehicles, UO and Darfall have PK-loot. Rift has collectables and the new “Dimensions” system. Allods has astral ships. GW2 doesn’t have any interesting gameplay mechanics like that. Where are guild halls? guild-oriented content? Player housing? Collectables? Difficult enemies? Rewards for beating those enemies (cosmetic or not, doesn’t matter), instead of for grinding? Guild Wars 2 just feels like a kiddie pool compared to even, dare I say it, WoW.

First off I want to thank all that have responded. Especially those of the old school like myself.

@ Hydrophidian

I agree that I did simplify. Mainly due to lack of space when posting. Second I agree with MMOs being more for immersionist.
I feel even though Guild Wars 2 is not as immersive. It is an improvement. I feel GW2 has returned some of these elements. For me I like it. For others as shown in this thread they do not agree.
It is this immersion that I feel is an under lying part of the issue many show on the forums .
To me the mere fact that you can go anywhere and have to struggle is immersive. In that Anet to me has done.
There are other point and issues we all can discuss and I welcome more input

EDIT:

Since Anet said you are going to be doing the end-game from the moment you start the game has been factual.
Have people taken advantage of it?
From post I have read on these forums I would say several have not.
I have done so. Even though I have not maxed out my main yet I have still through some alts as well as my main gone back to do some things I missed the first time around.
Heck I still have to do the dungeons having yet to touch them for the first time.
To me there is a ton to do in this game and to me it is very immersive.

oflow.2157:

Console gaming has nothing to do with why people are mad about this game.

I’m a pretty heavy console gamer and I also play almost every MMO that comes out, I dont think either has anything to do with the other.

First of all, most people that are hardcore console gamers dont play PC games.

WoW wasnt popular because it appealed to console gamers, WoW was popular because they took all of the popular elements of the MMOs that came before it and dropped most of the stuff that people hated.

For example, before WoW most MMOs were serious grinds and it took a year plus to reach level cap. In MMOs before WoW most MMOs didnt have mob tagging and you had to compete with farmers and spawn campers to get items or kill mobs. Before WoW there wasnt BoE/BoP gear you could resell your gear which made crafting actually valuable. Before WoW most MMOs werent solo friendly, you had to group with people to succeed. Before WoW games had harsh death penalties, corpse looting. Heck you could de-level in FFXI from dying. WoW got rid of all those things.

WoW also killed MMO etiquette. Pre-WoW you had to obey server etiquette or get blackballed and not be able to advance your character. People used to get kitten off if you talked in the wrong channels. Blizzard basically made an easily accessible MMO for their already established B-Net base, which is BTW one of the most obnoxious communities ever. BNet was already like 4chan before WoW came out.

Blizzard’s negative contribution to MMOs IMHO is how they ruined MMO etiquette. Act like a jerk and ninja? Who cares! You can even get banned make a new account and be back to level cap in a couple months at most and that was in vanilla WoW when they still had harder leveling.

I’d wager that most of the people that play this game arent even old enough to really have played MUDs or EQ1 so I dont really see that as the issue either.

What people are mad about with this game is the game was sold as not having vertical progression/gear treadmill. Most people that have played WoW are tired of running on that treadmill after doing it for 8 years. Its not that they expect an end to it they are tired of running on it and came to this game based on the concept that this game would end that, the trinity and bring back DAoC style world pvp.

Then later they (ANet) went back on their word. And most arent really mad about that but they would like to actually see some of the bugs and balance issues fixed before they start pushing people back onto the treadmill.

I dont really see a huge difference personally between this game and WoW. Frankly speaking WoW has better dungeons and raids than this game.

And the real problem is people were able to ‘beat’ this game too quickly (even ANet admitted that they didnt expect peopel to have full exotics that quickly) which forced them to bring out fractrals faster than they thought they would have to.

Now top this all off with the one time event that screwed over a bunch of people and you see why people are mad.

If they really want to fix the game they should do some serious bug fixing/rebalancing and get the pvp ladder system up and running. Professions like necro & ranger are kinda suffering. Thats a good start. Open up some of the other zones and get people out of L.A. Give people other options to get fractals and fix the ridiculous RNG in the game.

This guy gets it.

Saying this game is like any of the oldschool MMO’s is pretty stupid, yes the older MMO’s had a lot of annoying features but they also capitalized on what the genre does best – encourage social play.

This game is less social than most non MMO games that I play and that is pitiful to be honest. People enjoy socialising, even the most jaded bitter nerd likes to be social.

On the DAoC style PvP though, it isn’t going to happen until they put rewards and leaderboards that scale better in small group PvP rather than ZvZ or PvD action, because that’s what’s rewarded at the moment and it shows.

ArenaNet has shown the direction they want to take this game with the november patch, I would be surprised if they viewed WvW as anything other than a distraction or a side activity.

This game is not built around its major selling point, it is not grind free nor is it a PvP game, that is why people are kitten

Wait what?! GW2 is NOT “a return in a way to how MMOs were before WoW”! Just because it took a small step away from the set classes and such doesnt make it just as linear, theme park and static as any mmo that got released post WoW. Just I dont blame WoW per say though, like my favorite comparison; lets say WoW is a hamburger, its tasty, its simple, and its popular with the masses, that does NOT make it good food though, and the problem isnt the hamburger, the problem would be if I want to go out and get a nice bite to eat, there is nothing but hamburger joints these days. Well thats how the mmo market is atm.

Ever since WoW came out, its all been nothing but stale linear and non interactive mmo worlds and all of them pretty much only try to focus on getting players into the “phat lewt” addiction.

Serina.8652:

lets say WoW is a hamburger, its tasty, its simple, and its popular with the masses, that does NOT make it good food though, and the problem isnt the hamburger, the problem would be if I want to go out and get a nice bite to eat, there is nothing but hamburger joints these days. Well thats how the mmo market is atm..

I like that analogy.

As stated in my other post above. It is my take on immersion where I feel there have been elements that go back to pre-WoW day. I also stated it is not a compete return, but a step in the right direction.
The biggest down fall in MMO as the old timers know them was WoW overwhelming success. This ruined the way MMOs were originally. GW2 is a step in the right direction but not the fix.

EDIT:

and as stated by oflow the lack of consequences for bad behavior was also a major factor in bringing MMOs down the wrong road.

Forget WoW and its SNES graphics!

lol WoW since WotLK has been the most bashed MMORPG ever, and if you name WoW in any other mmorpg game which doesnt have a fanboi, they will bash it, they wont say ‘’well it has x nice feature’’ they will just bash it, even the bots and RMTs in the F2P MMORPG games bash it.

The success is thanks to Blizzard good job in early days, loyal player base which will play anything or buy anything they do, iam a loyal customer, bough D3 and played it a week and havent played it again, thats an example. Brood war and D2 made a good job.

Krosslite.1950

. GW2 is a step in the right direction but not the fix.

I agree, though it has taken a step backwards in the wrong direction by trying to emulate (very poorly, I might add) the “burger” gear grind.