(edited by Morpeth.5318)
A little perspective please... seriously, thanks for a great game
I mean if you really look at it, they’re not adding a gear treadmill.. just more lower leveled gear. What I mean is that Legendary will always be Best In Slot gear ( the best gear you can attain in the game) so once you get your legendary you’ll be at that wall, the wall in which you don’t have to worry about grinding fr gear anymore.
Yes I know there’s no legendary armor yet, but there is also no Ascended armor yet, all we are getting right now from the patch is a Ring and a Back Piece. More Ascended gear will come in the future, but they don’t say how long into the future, maybe it will be released after more Legendary gear. maybe before or maybe at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, if you want the best. You get Legendary.
Also from what has been shown, Ascended gear doesn’t have a rune slot, so basically you get a piece of gear with 5 different stats on it and an infusion slot, instead of a gear piece with 3 stats on it and a rune slot. So in my opinion I’d rather have Exotics > Ascended, for WvW atleast.
If you choose to turn around the game 180*
This goes to my point, about the ‘omfg’ exaggeration. Adding some gear is not turning the whole game around 180. And no where in that link did I see them say they’d never add new gear.
If people didn’t have the proper perspective to realize what a great game they have in front of them, you wouldn’t see this kind of outcry in the first place.
Because for many people, these announced changes are so pervasive and so dead-set against what they enjoy about the game that they don’t just drag down but actually ruin most of what people like about the game.
Honestly, I should be jumping up and down with joy at this update. The new zone and the new enemies look really cool. It’s got a new, gigantic dungeon; dungeons are my favourite part of the game, and not only that but it actually implements upscaling to level 80, in case I want to try it with a class that I haven’t dragged all the way to max level with yet.
But the addition of a gear treadmill overshadows all of that. It doesn’t matter how good the new content is, or how much there is of it. It’s a fundamental philosophical shift in the game’s ethos, and every part of the game (save sPvP/tPvP) now has to be viewed in this new light. It’s the difference between a game that I think is great, and a game that I have absolutely zero interest in or curiosity about. I would rather have the game that I think is great.
I case people forgot, this game has NO monthly fee, just $60, period. And yet gets as many patches/fixes/updates as most mmos out there that have a monthly sub. Did they have to do the Halloween event, for free? No.
Free stuff doesn’t matter that much to you when it’s not the kind of free stuff you want.
This is the game I handed over cash for:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/the-game/personal-story/
And this:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/the-game/dynamic-events/
This is the game they’re still advertising.
“In Guild Wars 2, your actions really matter and your choices have an impact on the world around you. "
“Dynamic events change and evolve in response to how you interact with them, leaving lasting effects in the game world.”
“Guild Wars 2 goes beyond race and profession to a deeper level of character creation—the biography.”
“Guild Wars 2 provides players both the social, fully interactive feeling of a multiplayer game as well as the customized, choice-based story one expects from a personal role-playing game. "
“Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement.”
On the contrary, all I’m seeing with these updates is emphasis on more-grind-for-woot. My presence has no effect on anything, as far as I can see.
Odd my post got deleted for “derailing” the discussion.
Well what do you know…
Maybe I should just say I agree to disagree, without further discussion.
(edited by Loumy.7841)
But the addition of a gear treadmill overshadows all of that. It doesn’t matter how good the new content is, or how much there is of it. It’s a fundamental philosophical shift in the game’s ethos, and every part of the game (save sPvP/tPvP) now has to be viewed in this new light. It’s the difference between a game that I think is great, and a game that I have absolutely zero interest in or curiosity about. I would rather have the game that I think is great.
I have argued very ardently against the implementation of a gear treadmill or perpetual progression system in GW2. So I can understand your apprehension. But I think it’s more than a little jumping the gun to say this is a “gear treadmill”. Yes, they have added a new tier of gear, and yes I can see why some view that as ominous, but we already had tiered gear. In order to have a legitimate treadmill we need continual additional tiers.
I think it’s good people are holding Arena Net’s feet to the fire on the question of progression because I wouldn’t like to see them reversing direction in terms of their original stated goals for this game. But I don’t think outraged hyperbole is helping when it comes to the dialogue around this issue. There is a lot of slippery sloping going on in these forums right now, some by people who seem otherwise quite educated and eloquent. I see a lot of rhetoric flying around about “trust” and “broken promises”. It doesn’t say a lot about the degree of trust people had when this is their reaction to a single tier. It actually demonstrates an utter absence of trust.
All ya’ll need to take a deep breath.
I case people forgot, this game has NO monthly fee, just $60, period. And yet gets as many patches/fixes/updates as most mmos out there that have a monthly sub. Did they have to do the Halloween event, for free? No.
Free stuff doesn’t matter that much to you when it’s not the kind of free stuff you want.
This is the game I handed over cash for:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/the-game/personal-story/
And this:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/the-game/dynamic-events/
This is the game they’re still advertising.
“In Guild Wars 2, your actions really matter and your choices have an impact on the world around you. "
“Dynamic events change and evolve in response to how you interact with them, leaving lasting effects in the game world.”
“Guild Wars 2 goes beyond race and profession to a deeper level of character creation—the biography.”
“Guild Wars 2 provides players both the social, fully interactive feeling of a multiplayer game as well as the customized, choice-based story one expects from a personal role-playing game. "
“Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement.”
On the contrary, all I’m seeing with these updates is emphasis on more-grind-for-woot. My presence has no effect on anything, as far as I can see.
And yet, I see those very things in the game that and you claim you don’t. They do have personal stories, they do have dynamic events, there are rpg elements.
“Free stuff doesn’t matter that much to you when it’s not the kind of free stuff you want.” Boy, that statement say a lot to me. So because if it’s not what YOU want, no one else playing could possibly enjoy it or see the value of it?
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!
I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.
Like many of you, I have a long history of playing MMOs and have played many. I find that GW2 is a great amalgamation of what has worked for other games without most of the issues that came with them. I am thoroughly enjoying the end result; it is obvious that this is a labor of love that the devs have handed to us.
It seems to me that given the fantastic job that they have done, and all of the hours we have enjoyed in Tyria thus far, that they have earned a bit of trust. It wouldn’t be the first time that something looked iffy on paper and wound up being an excellent experience in the end.
There were many nay-sayers about GW2 before launch, how there was no way it could live up to the hype. Many reviews and many thousands of players would agree that it has. Now there are nay-sayers claiming that the game is borked before the patch is even in place; I’ll wait to see the results before I sharpen my pitchfork.
My eyes are small but they have seen the beauty of enormous things.
I have argued very ardently against the implementation of a gear treadmill or perpetual progression system in GW2. So I can understand your apprehension. But I think it’s more than a little jumping the gun to say this is a “gear treadmill”. Yes, they have added a new tier of gear, and yes I can see why some view that as ominous, but we already had tiered gear. In order to have a legitimate treadmill we need continual additional tiers.
A gear treadmill is not a ‘treadmill’ because you have to keep doing it. Every ‘new’ maximum that is added to the game is definitionally a treadmill:
- The hardest content is balanced with respect to the strongest equipment. The end result of this is identical, whether “strongest equipment” means ‘all Exotics’, whether it means ‘mostly Exotics but with three Ascended pieces’, or whether it means ‘all Ascended’.
- Adding newer, stronger equipment means that you have to put in the time and the grind to acquire that newer, stronger equipment, or you are weaker than players are intended to be for the hardest content.
- Once you have that newer, stronger equipment, you are once again at the maximum power. Except that, as stated, the hardest content is going to be identically difficult once you are at the maximum power, regardless of what ‘maximum power’ specifically means.
- The end result is: You have to ‘run’ (grind) to catch up to the new maximum, which leaves you in exactly the same position you were in before newer, stronger equipment was introduced.
That is what characterizes a treadmill: Being in position A, then having new equipment introduced that functionally moves you backwards to position B, and requires that you gear up and grind again, just to get back to position A. Repetition of that process makes it worse, but the fundamental issue is a conceptual one, not whether it’s ‘only’ an 8% difference, and not whether you ‘only’ have to do it once every 6, 9, or 12 months instead of every 3, and frankly, even if you only had to do it once, ever, it would still remain the same fundamental problem.
And yet, I see those very things in the game that and you claim you don’t. They do have personal stories, they do have dynamic events, there are rpg elements.
All far, far away from the extravagant claims made on those pages. You cannot remotely shift your character’s destiny, or even their personality. Dynamic events are not a means to alter the world around you. The world reacts minimally to your presence. Every tiny thing you might change reverts within an hour. Your character’s biography is shallow and irrelevant. You don’t play the game ‘your’ way; you play the game exactly the way ANet envisaged you would: farming and fighting and watching occasional cutscenes.
“Free stuff doesn’t matter that much to you when it’s not the kind of free stuff you want.” Boy, that statement say a lot to me. So because if it’s not what YOU want, no one else playing could possibly enjoy it or see the value of it?
Sure, I can see the ‘value’ of it, but you are so missing the point. If this was all ANet intended to provide/expand on, this is how they should have marketed the game. If they had come out and said, “GW2 is going to be a big old grind for loot with a battle system that’s a mash-up of hack & slash button-bashing and RPG stat porn – oh, and there will be a perfunctory quest-type story and some amusing NPC dialogue”, I would have known exactly what I was getting myself in for and left it for you guys who enjoy that type of thing.
Almost every element of the game that persuaded me to pay for it and hand over the game is an element that has been underdeveloped and is now being quietly shoved to the side in favour of concentrating on the grind for loot.
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.
“absolutely no vertical progression” Are you freaking kidding? So that fact you knew from day 1 that game had 80 levels, and you’d start at Level 1… didn’t strike you as ‘vertical progression’ Did you expect to wear the same gear at Level 1 as you would as Level 80? Seriously?
How is going from 1-80 “absolutely no vertical progression”? That’s the VERY definition of vertical progression. Either you don’t understand English, didn’t read a single thing about the game, or are just lying. This is the kind of hyperbole I’m talking about.
A gear treadmill is not a ‘treadmill’ because you have to keep doing it. Every ‘new’ maximum that is added to the game is definitionally a treadmill:
Actually the working definition of “treadmill” is that you keep running in place, perpetually. I understand that this application of the term is metaphorical, but I think there’s a reasonable limit to how far we can extend the term before it becomes meaningless. Following your definition, we already had a treadmill the second the game introduced a level 2.
That is what characterizes a treadmill: Being in position A, then having new equipment introduced that functionally moves you backwards to position B, and requires that you gear up and grind again, just to get back to position A. Repetition of that process makes it worse, but the fundamental issue is a conceptual one, not whether it’s ‘only’ an 8% difference, and not whether you ‘only’ have to do it once every 6, 9, or 12 months instead of every 3, and frankly, even if you only had to do it once, ever, it would still remain the same fundamental problem.
This is the same colloquial abuse of a term that occurred with grinding, to the point that “grinding” now means “doing things”, and the only thing that isn’t a “grind” is receiving a reward. I’m going to need more than one more tier of gear before I’m prepared to say GW2 is now a remorseless gear treadmill and the manifesto is completely out the window. This business with a single new tier of gear being added is caused for a raised eyebrow and an expression of concern, not a huge fit and accusations of betrayal. Come back when they’ve stapled on another 3-4 and then we can talk about fair application of the term “treadmill”.
“absolutely no vertical progression” Are you freaking kidding? So that fact you knew from day 1 that game had 80 levels, and you’d start at Level 1… didn’t strike you as ‘vertical progression’ Did you expect to wear the same gear at Level 1 as you would as Level 80? Seriously?
How is going from 1-80 “absolutely no vertical progression”? That’s the VERY definition of vertical progression. Either you don’t understand English, didn’t read a single thing about the game, or are just lying. This is the kind of hyperbole I’m talking about.
Where did you take the from level 1 from? I would assume that – given the 7.5k post long thread about new gear tier at level cap when it was promised by the devs there would be no vertical gear progression after level cap, just like in it’s predecessor I don’t have to mention every single aspect of the situation over and over again and that people can fill in some gaps.
“absolutely no vertical progression” Are you freaking kidding? So that fact you knew from day 1 that game had 80 levels, and you’d start at Level 1… didn’t strike you as ‘vertical progression’ Did you expect to wear the same gear at Level 1 as you would as Level 80? Seriously?
How is going from 1-80 “absolutely no vertical progression”? That’s the VERY definition of vertical progression. Either you don’t understand English, didn’t read a single thing about the game, or are just lying. This is the kind of hyperbole I’m talking about.
Advancing in levels/gear not unlocking new content. That’s what he means by ‘absolutely no vertical progression’ – a levelling system that’s a goal unto itself, rather than a gateway to certain content.
I’ve got an idea.
How about people stop telling others how to feel?
I think it’s safe to say that each proposed change will be met by different reactions by different people. If a certain change is a deal-breaker for someone then you personally disagreeing does not make it less important to that person.
SoE have finally been knocked off the top spot
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
This is the same colloquial abuse of a term that occurred with grinding, to the point that “grinding” now means “doing things”, and the only thing that isn’t a “grind” is receiving a reward.
Wrong way round. Grinding means doing things just for the reward. Repeating simple tasks and challenges just to farm materials, or doing a dungeon or boss just for the chest at the end.
It’s called grinding because, psychologically, you’re not getting anything out of the activity itself. The idea of a game is almost predicated on the idea that you’re completing unnecessary tasks simply for the enjoyment of completing unnecessary tasks. Other than the sense of a job well done, what reward do you get for beating your opponent in chess? Or completing Super Mario Brothers?
The ‘grind’ of MMORPGs is why people joke about gaming becoming like a second job. We’re no longer playing for the challenge or the satisfaction of doing something well; we’ve instead been persuaded to attach the same extrinsic value to virtual objects as we do to material property.
Just wait until unscrupulous governments start working this out.
(edited by Focksbot.6798)
Wrong way round. Grinding means doing things just for the reward. Repeating simply tasks and challenges just to farm materials, or doing a dungeon or boss just for the chest at the end.
It’s called grinding because, psychologically, you’re not getting anything out of the activity itself. The idea of a game is almost predicated on the idea that you’re completing unnecessary tasks simply for the enjoyment of completing unnecessary tasks. Other than the sense of a job well done, what reward do you get for beating your opponent in chess? Or completing Super Mario Brothers?
The ‘grind’ of MMORPGs is why people joke about gaming becoming like a second job. We’re no longer playing for the challenge or the satisfaction of doing something well; we’ve instead been persuaded to attach the same extrinsic value to virtual objects as we do to material property.
Just wait until unscrupulous governments start working this out.
I’m not really sure where you’re getting “wrong way around” from. What do you think I characterize “grinding” as? Back in the day, “grinding” was sitting on a hill killing Tumps for 24 hours to knock off one bubble of one level of experience, and we were happy to do it. These days people run into a field, do a single event, and come to the forums to moan about the terrible grind. The word has lost all meaning. If I said “grind” to you in casual conversation about an MMO, unless you and I were close you would have absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
We apparently have an entire generation of players in this genre who are playing despite the fact they hate every aspect of the game except the part where their numbers go up. I find it utterly baffling.
We apparently have an entire generation of players in this genre who are playing despite the fact they hate every aspect of the game except the part where their numbers go up. I find it utterly baffling.
QFT
I am baffled as well.
My eyes are small but they have seen the beauty of enormous things.
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.
There is still Horizontal progression. Do you even PLAY the game? Stats matter SO LITTLE in this game. The difference in stats between a rare and exotic is so little that it doesn’t even MATTER. The only thing that matters in the new gear type is the infusion slots, which are solely designed for dealing with one mechanic from one dungeon, Agony.
Please, demonstrate some more straw man arguments about how the game is ruined in a yet to be released update.
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.There is still Horizontal progression. Do you even PLAY the game? Stats matter SO LITTLE in this game. The difference in stats between a rare and exotic is so little that it doesn’t even MATTER. The only thing that matters in the new gear type is the infusion slots, which are solely designed for dealing with one mechanic from one dungeon, Agony.
Please, demonstrate some more straw man arguments about how the game is ruined in a yet to be released update.
If the stats don’t make a difference as you claim, then why increase them at all?
Because they do make a difference.
SoE have finally been knocked off the top spot
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
I’m not really sure where you’re getting “wrong way around” from.
You said that doing anything except the task that gets you the reward was grinding. I’m saying it’s the other way round; grinding is defined by doing something repetitively just for the reward.
What do you think I characterize “grinding” as? Back in the day, “grinding” was sitting on a hill killing Tumps for 24 hours to knock off one bubble of one level of experience, and we were happy to do it. These days people run into a field, do a single event, and come to the forums to moan about the terrible grind. The word has lost all meaning. If I said “grind” to you in casual conversation about an MMO, unless you and I were close you would have absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
I would assume you’re talking about carrying out some activity you don’t particularly enjoy or engage with just to get some reward or bonus that you’re seeking. You’re seriously telling me there’s a definition other than that?
Because the difference you highlight above is purely to do with scale. All you’re saying is that in the past you had to grind for ages, and today you have to grind less, but that people have become less tolerant of grinding.
What’s not grinding is doing an activity (probably in another game in another genre) which gives you no rewards or bonuses or chests, just for kicks.
We apparently have an entire generation of players in this genre who are playing despite the fact they hate every aspect of the game except the part where their numbers go up. I find it utterly baffling.
Yes, I agree, and this is a direct result of the genre teachings its players to measure their success and worth through gear and rewards. Every action they perform is ultimately motivated by some distant glitter of a new sword or stat increase. It’s a lamentable situation, which GW2 was meant to redress head-on by emphasising ideas like your effect on the world, the individuality of your character, your power to determine your fate etc.
It’s apparent that they lost confidence in this tack some way through development and are now hastily getting back onto the bandwagon.
Morpeth, the problem with your point is that you’re using money as a metric for quality. The idea that we’re getting a whole boatload of entertainment for just sixty dollars and no monthly fee somehow precludes complaints. Consequently no one has a right to complain, because the game is free.
The problem is that money isn’t how I measure the value of my game.
Time is more valuable than money. The measure of a game’s value is not in dollars but in hours invested, in time spent participating in the game, evangelizing the game, exploring the game, theorycrafting, arguing on the forums, getting involved and being emotionally invested in the game.
No one, not a single person here, is going to claim that we haven’t gotten our 60 dollars worth of entertainment. It’s not about getting our money’s worth. It’s about the time and interest we’ve invested in a game many of us are intensely passionate about.
If I quit tomorrow, my money certainly wouldn’t have been wasted, but I wouldn’t be investing any more time into the game. I wouldn’t be investing any more passion into the game. I wouldn’t be investing any more interest into the game. I wouldn’t be investing any more creativity into the game.
Ask any developer how much a passionate, enthusiastic and devoted fan is worth. Players are not a form of capital you can measure in money.
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.There is still Horizontal progression. Do you even PLAY the game? Stats matter SO LITTLE in this game. The difference in stats between a rare and exotic is so little that it doesn’t even MATTER. The only thing that matters in the new gear type is the infusion slots, which are solely designed for dealing with one mechanic from one dungeon, Agony.
Please, demonstrate some more straw man arguments about how the game is ruined in a yet to be released update.
If the stats don’t make a difference as you claim, then why increase them at all?
Because they do make a difference.
So then why do you even PLAY the game is a 5 point stat boost bothers you that much? Gear progression from white to orange was known WAY in advance of release. Arena Net’s philosophy is not “No vertical progression” it’s that not having proper gear shouldn’t lock you out of being able to do content. You can still do all the content in this game, including Fractals, without any problem(and doing Fractals will get you gear to help make fractals easier). so what’s really the issue here?
Because you sound like you’re just whining, not offering any actual constructive criticism.
Actually the working definition of “treadmill” is that you keep running in place, perpetually. I understand that this application of the term is metaphorical, but I think there’s a reasonable limit to how far we can extend the term before it becomes meaningless. Following your definition, we already had a treadmill the second the game introduced a level 2.
I think a reasonable place to draw a solid, non-negotiable line where we can say “This is a treadmill, this is not” would be that, if you hit the maximum level and get the highest quality of equipment available, that equipment should remain the highest quality, for the lifespan of the game.
For the record, no, I actually don’t like that there are five completely linear qualities of item in the game as-is, and I don’t like that you have to level up from 1 to 80. In my ideal case, you would log on, create a character, and then all aspects of the game would immediately use the sPvP ruleset with regards to level, equipment, skill acquisition, etc. That’s the game that I want to play.
The reason that I’m complaining about the introduction of newer, stronger equipment and not complaining that ArenaNet should let you skip to level 80, have free Exotics and Runes and equipment with whatever stat combination you want, etc (even though that would make me happier) is twofold: 1) I knew all of these systems would be in place before I bought the game, so I had the information I needed to decide whether I wanted to put up with them or not, before I bought the game, and 2) Because I’m willing to make concessions to things that I consider non-ideal, when there is a good reason for them to exist.
- I am willing to play a game with multiple equipment tiers – if and only if I can outfit myself with ‘top’ equipment as easily as I can get Exotics in the game right now – because it’s conducive to the overall health of the game to have those systems in play so that the game can develop an economy, and because once I get those relatively-easily-obtained Exotics, I never have to interact with the tiered equipment system again, as long as I play that character.
- I am willing to endure having to level from from 1 to 80, because the curve allows newer players an opportunity to learn each aspect of the game as they go, without dumping everything in their lap at once (weapon skills unlocking gradually, then weapon swapping, utility slots, then trait points, then Master/Grandmaster tiers, Elite Skills, etc) and being confusing for a new player.
I do, however, feel that it does take considerably more time than it should to get from 1 to 80 – personally, I found the leveling curve was best in Guild Wars Factions where you maxed out after 2-4 hours, and I think that Guild Wars 2 would have been best served by a curve similar to Guild Wars Prophecies, where it was about 15-20 hours to max out – but, again, I’m willing to put up with what I feel is a little too much of a grind to hit 80, knowing that once I do hit 80, that’s the last I’ll ever need to worry about it, for a long time, if not for the game’s lifespan.
There’s no “good reason” for introducing Ascended equipment into the game. There’s no gap that needs to be filled, it’s an irritation to people who don’t want to have to make their numbers go up, and it’s not enough ‘numbers going up’ to satisfy the people who feel that Guild Wars 2 has “nothing to do” because you can’t make those numbers keep going up. It’s an incoherent design decision that, as far as I can tell, seems to be entirely motivated by the notion that it somehow takes too long to max out your character statistically, which I think is the most backwards motivation possible for such a change to the game’s design.
I would assume you’re talking about carrying out some activity you don’t particularly enjoy or engage with just to get some reward or bonus that you’re seeking. You’re seriously telling me there’s a definition other than that?
What is the threshold beyond which something can be reasonably defined as “grindy”? Is the term completely subjective? Because completely subjective terms are not particularly useful in dialogue with other human beings, for fairly obvious reasons.
Really though, we are starting to derail the thread discussing “grinding” when what we should be defining is “treadmill”.
I would say that GW2 was something of an evolutionary step forward in terms of removing “grind” or punitive play mechanics from the MMO, but it’s just an evolution. I don’t think they’re slipping into old mechanics so much as they never fully outgrew them to begin with. You open a clown college, you should not be overly surprised when aspiring clowns show up.
So then why do you even PLAY the game is a 5 point stat boost bothers you that much? Gear progression from white to orange was known WAY in advance of release. Arena Net’s philosophy is not “No vertical progression” it’s that not having proper gear shouldn’t lock you out of being able to do content. You can still do all the content in this game, including Fractals, without any problem(and doing Fractals will get you gear to help make fractals easier). so what’s really the issue here?
Because you sound like you’re just whining, not offering any actual constructive criticism.
Please don’t complain about strawmans and then use the old “if you don’t want a new tier of gear then you must hate all progression including the current gear & leveling” strawman.
SoE have finally been knocked off the top spot
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
What is the threshold beyond which something can be reasonably defined as “grindy”? Is the term completely subjective? Because completely subjective terms are not particularly useful in dialogue with other human beings, for fairly obvious reasons.
I don’t think it’s a threshold. I think it’s an objective binary. Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
LOL….its a great game.
But, no single game will EVER satisfy everyone. Thats why I hope that ANet just does their thing based mostly on what they think is best for this platform.
Raf
PF/ GOAT on Tarnished Coast (Semi-Retired)
Raf Longshanks-80 Norn Guardian / 9 more alts of various lvls / Charter Member Altaholics Anon
Raf Longshanks-80 Norn Guardian / 9 more alts of various lvls / Charter Member Altaholics Anon
Ask any developer how much a passionate, enthusiastic and devoted fan is worth. Players are not a form of capital you can measure in money.
Sorry evening, but the update that is incoming, to my eyes, is reflecting exactly the opposite way.
Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL
I don’t think it’s a threshold. I think it’s an objective binary. Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
You’re using the term as an element of human psychology. Josh thinks X is grindy, because Josh finds it boring. It’s basically just a synonym for things Josh doesn’t like, which isn’t terribly useful to anyone but Josh.
If we’re going to reach out and apply it as a label to a game…this game is GRINDY…this game is a TREADMILL…then we need some kind of objective standard. Otherwise we’re just communicating preferences, rather than actually establishing what kind of mechanics are in play.
I don’t think it’s a threshold. I think it’s an objective binary. Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
You’re using the term as an element of human psychology. Josh thinks X is grindy, because Josh finds it boring. It’s basically just a synonym for things Josh doesn’t like, which isn’t terribly useful to anyone but Josh.
If we’re going to reach out and apply it as a label to a game…this game is GRINDY…this game is a TREADMILL…then we need some kind of objective standard. Otherwise we’re just communicating preferences, rather than actually establishing what kind of mechanics are in play.
At no point did he mention the players opinion on what he was doing.
Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
I agree with this definition. It’s about repeatedly taking the same actions (crafting the same items, repeating the same DE chains, killing the same mobs, etc) because that;s what’s required to progress.
SoE have finally been knocked off the top spot
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
At no point did he mention the players opinion on what he was doing.
Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
I agree with this definition. It’s about repeatedly taking the same actions (crafting the same items, repeating the same DE chains, killing the same mobs, etc) because that;s what’s required to progress.
Uh…
You don’t think the reason and motivation that someone does something is unique to that player’s psychology? You think it’s given to us by the game, do you?
Jestunhi’s got it. Motivation is an objective quality, not subjective. It’s not about what the player thinks about what he’s doing; it’s what’s making him do it. Is he motivated by the sense of satisfaction or accomplishment he feels from carrying out a task, or is it the twinkle of loot at the end of the road?
I add in the ‘primarily’ because you can be motivated somewhat by both, of course, and many games offer types of rewards so that players will have an added incentive over the top of enjoyment. But if the primary motivation is the loot, then they’re grinding.
Jestunhi’s got it. Motivation is an objective quality, not subjective. It’s not about what the player thinks about what he’s doing; it’s what’s making him do it. Is he motivated by the sense of satisfaction or accomplishment he feels from carrying out a task, or is it the twinkle of loot at the end of the road?
I add in the ‘primarily’ because you can be motivated somewhat by both, of course, and many games offer types of rewards so that players will have an added incentive over the top of enjoyment. But if the primary motivation is the loot, then they’re grinding.
I’m a little startled and alarmed that you view motivation as an objective quality that lies outside the player.
Like, so startled and alarmed that I think we’ve really gone as far as it’s possible to go with this conversation, because I have no idea how on earth anyone could come to that conclusion rationally.
Uh…
You don’t think the reason and motivation that someone does something is unique to that player’s psychology? You think it’s given to us by the game, do you?
Actually, it is. Of course human beings experience various reactions, which is why many will not ever like or play MMORPGs, but games do mould player psychologies. Individual games do it, and genres do it as well, over time. So it’s developers who are primarily responsible for the common mindset of the modern MMORPG player – impatient with anything that doesn’t appear to offer a reward.
At no point did he mention the players opinion on what he was doing.
Is the player performing a particular activity repeatedly primarily in order to attain a reward other than personal satisfaction? If yes, it’s a grind.
I agree with this definition. It’s about repeatedly taking the same actions (crafting the same items, repeating the same DE chains, killing the same mobs, etc) because that;s what’s required to progress.
Uh…
You don’t think the reason and motivation that someone does something is unique to that player’s psychology? You think it’s given to us by the game, do you?
That’s not what I said in the slightest.
What I said is that no part of the definition involves how fun something is. Please re-read the definitions which were provided.
SoE have finally been knocked off the top spot
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
I’m a little startled and alarmed that you view motivation as an objective quality that lies outside the player.
Like, so startled and alarmed that I think we’ve really gone as far as it’s possible to go with this conversation, because I have no idea how on earth anyone could come to that conclusion rationally.
Well, don’t go into a law court, or you might be overcome with shock. ;-)
Yes, motivation is objective. Objective does not mean ‘outside the player’; it means something that holds true no matter the perspective you bring to it.
“Is this activity boring?” is a subjective question.
“Why is this person doing this activity?” is an objective question. You don’t send some people to jail for murder and others for manslaughter on the basis of subjective viewpoints.
Well, don’t go into a law court, or you might be overcome with shock. ;-)
Yes, motivation is objective. Objective does not mean ‘outside the player’; it means something that holds true no matter the perspective you bring to it.
“Is this activity boring?” is a subjective question.
“Why is this person doing this activity?” is an objective question. You don’t send some people to jail for murder and others for manslaughter on the basis of subjective viewpoints.
The individual decided why they did something. You can objectively state what a motivation was. You cannot objectively state what someone’s motivation will be based on what an activity is. You can’t take a particular quest and say “All people who complete this quest will do so for reason X”. That’s absurd.
Odd my post got deleted for “derailing” the discussion.
Well what do you know…Maybe I should just say I agree to disagree, without further discussion.
PLEASE, don’t you know this will derail by not providing anything to the discussion AssNet chose to go “positive only” by deleting as much as they can criticizing them?
You cannot objectively state what someone’s motivation will be based on what an activity is.
That’s called making a prediction. It’s still answering an objective question, but it’s taking a guess at the answer.
Whether it rained on my house yesterday is an objective fact. Whether it will rain on my house tomorrow is still a matter of objectivity, but harder to state with absolute certainty.
You can’t take a particular quest and say “All people who complete this quest will do so for reason X”. That’s absurd.
Not absurd; it’s how game design works. When they put things in, they don’t think: “Now, I have no idea whatsoever why anyone would want to do this – could be any number of reasons – but hey, we’ll bung it in anyway!” They think about what motivation they’re giving the player, why they will expect someone to do it.
This site even has a page about it – about how they wanted to make sure at every stage that the primary motivation would be ‘fun’. It describes how dungeons were supposed to vary, with multiple paths, and players were supposed to receive tokens so that they weren’t just grinding for rare drops. The idea was that they were actively trying to create a system where the primary motivation for activities was personal satisfaction (or fun).
But ultimately, they just didn’t go far enough. It’s plain to me, from what I see people doing in the game and what I see people talking about on forums, that after an initial honeymoon period, players remain in GW2 to grind. Maybe the first time they did an event or a dungeon, it was fun. But now they’re grinding.
(edited by Focksbot.6798)
Here’s that page I was talking about:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/
Is anyone else having trouble seeing this thread? I’m getting a blank space underneath the title unless I change the ‘2’ to a ‘1’ after ‘page’ in the address bar. I wondered if it was just me or a general glitch that’s killed the thread.
Perspective?
I bought a product that was supposed to have horizontal progression in it and absolutely no vertical progression.
but after I paid, suddenly I’m being server stuff with vertical progression.
So it’s okay because the price was lower than other games?
What exactly am I supposed to put in perspective?
I made an informed purchase, I’ve consulted all available sources to make sure I’ll get horizontal progression and no vertical progression!I’m glad you like vertical progression better than horizontal progression, but while you might feel like a lottery winner when you got your favourite type of game while paying for something that was to be completely different (why didn’t you read product description I don’t know), the vertical progression is something I want nothing to do with whatsoever.
There is absolutely nothing to put into perspective here.
Well then you should have stopped when you realized there was more than 1 tier of gear in the first 15 levels.
Wrong way round. Grinding means doing things just for the reward. Repeating simply tasks and challenges just to farm materials, or doing a dungeon or boss just for the chest at the end.
It’s called grinding because, psychologically, you’re not getting anything out of the activity itself. The idea of a game is almost predicated on the idea that you’re completing unnecessary tasks simply for the enjoyment of completing unnecessary tasks. Other than the sense of a job well done, what reward do you get for beating your opponent in chess? Or completing Super Mario Brothers?
The ‘grind’ of MMORPGs is why people joke about gaming becoming like a second job. We’re no longer playing for the challenge or the satisfaction of doing something well; we’ve instead been persuaded to attach the same extrinsic value to virtual objects as we do to material property.
Just wait until unscrupulous governments start working this out.
I’m not really sure where you’re getting “wrong way around” from. What do you think I characterize “grinding” as? Back in the day, “grinding” was sitting on a hill killing Tumps for 24 hours to knock off one bubble of one level of experience, and we were happy to do it. These days people run into a field, do a single event, and come to the forums to moan about the terrible grind. The word has lost all meaning. If I said “grind” to you in casual conversation about an MMO, unless you and I were close you would have absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
We apparently have an entire generation of players in this genre who are playing despite the fact they hate every aspect of the game except the part where their numbers go up. I find it utterly baffling.
Spot on.
When people talking about ‘grinding’ in a mmo like GW2 I have to laugh. I remember people standing in the same spot in EQ killing the same spawn over and over because it was nearly impossible to find solo-able mobs (blues in EQ) that would give you decent xps. THAT was grinding, an no, it wasn’t fun.