Guild Wars 2

Stipulation #1: Players must have access to serious, mean weaponry and heroes who can perform powerful-looking, fluid killing strokes and devastating spells.

Stipulation #2: Fights need to last more than a second, ideally anything up to a minute for ordinary encounters, longer for bosses. Otherwise it just isn’t satisfying.

Result: Arrows that do the damage of paper cuts, ‘chain lightning’ that’s less effective than shining a bright light into someone’s eyes, huge swords that take 20 gigantic slashes to make an enemy sigh and keel over.

Proposed Alternative: Divide moves into two categories: (1) quick, blunt trauma moves or deliberately weak attacks, or ones that cause confusion and conditions; (2) deadly, spectacular finishes or severe wounds. The second category of moves will nearly always be evaded while the enemy is at full ‘health’. The first category wear the ‘health’ bar down, since it actually represents the enemy’s initiative/awareness/reaction time. The lower the ‘health’ bar the better chance a (2) attack has of landing, either killing an enemy outright or dealing a severe blow.

Envisaged Result: A fight lasts just as long because the player is forced to rely mostly on moves that look and appear weak, eg. a knock with a rifle butt, flinging dirt in eyes. Realistically, this wears an enemy down. When the amazing weapon/wizarding powers are finally brought to bear, it results in a strong finish that leaves the player feeling their character and armaments are truly something to be reckoned with.

I hope you’re trolling.

This is a game

hey, welcome to mmorpgs! Anything of what you propose doesnt happen in pretty much any game of the genre. Sorry to disappoint you, but this game won’t be the exception nethier. Pretty much because it’s not focused on reality, by far.

Now, going to what to propose (implying you are just new and not trolling): making a normal fight last around a minute would make it tedious and terribly repetitive. Not even to mention if its a boss.

It might make for an interesting game, but I don’t think it will be good for most games:
- You only use half of your skills half of the time. (why not just give all skills a special “finisher” animation when it hits a low-health enemy?)

- It’s a bit artificial and contrived, especially the “chance of hitting goes up with lower health”. A more natural mechanic might be to have Stamina in the game that drains as the character gets tired. With lower stamina, your dodge rolls and other defensive moves become less effective. There are some powerful attacks that are easily dodged/blocked when someone has full stamina. But you can still land those big attacks if the enemy doesnt defend himself. (eg. you snuck up behind him.)
—> GW2 is a already kinda like that, with certain builds.

- It’s not really realistic anyways. And besides, we have no idea how real fighting in a world with magical powers would work. It’s like someone from the middle ages trying to describe “realistic” combat with jet fighters.

I’m not sure where the idea comes from that “realistic” melee fights would be long.

Judging from attempts to reconstruct mediaeval fighting styles from the European martial arts books from the 15th and 16th century, most mediaeval melee fights were probably pretty quick. Blades, maces, etc., even knives, are absolutely deadly, and it only takes a tiny mistake to open a combatant up to severe damage or incapacitation.

I guess it depends on what you mean by realistic- “realistic according to how mediaeval fighting actually was” or “realistic according to how mediaeval fighting is portrayed in the movies or in recreational mediaevalism”. The latter would make fights longer, because it’s more fun to watch and participate in. The former would make fights short, because they most likely were short, unless the participants were exactly evenly matched in terms of skill (a condition difficult to ensure on the battlefield).

Yeah, medieval fights were mere moments of terror. And those guys had armor, even.

Realistic!? In a fantasy game!

LOL

I demand realistic lightning bolts! I want weeping mothers, sisters, wives, and children. I want a guilt meter. Lets add a mental health tracking feature too.

Seriously if you want realism enlist and see a real war (hint: it’s ugly as hell, unpleasant, and in no way enjoyable or entertaining). I want nothing to do with realistic killing and maiming in game.

The responses here make me sad. Why do companies like ANet even both with graphics and storylines if none of you have any expectations of finding the experience suitably convincing as a possibly reality?

I hope you’re trolling.
This is a game

So why don’t we all just play chess? Why do we have the remotest interest in 3D worlds and polygonal sculpts of deadly-looking weapons?

Riselle”

It’s not really realistic anyways. And besides, we have no idea how real fighting in a world with magical powers would work. It’s like someone from the middle ages trying to describe “realistic” combat with jet fighters.

You make some good points about potential problems with the system but this is a bad point. We know what lightning and fire do to people. Here’s an easy test: would you accept what you see in GW2 if you saw it in a film? I think not.

Sirevanac”

Now, going to what to propose (implying you are just new and not trolling): making a normal fight last around a minute would make it tedious and terribly repetitive. Not even to mention if its a boss.

sigh The point is to keep the fights lasting whatever they last now. I thought it was around a minute. My point is that the only change is the way the fight is visually represented, not the mechanics or how long it lasts.

hey, welcome to mmorpgs!

Welcome to a thread where I try to envisage mmorpgs being better than they are, and people looking back on this era and not being able to understand why so many of us put up with so much that was ridiculous when the alternatives were obvious and reachable.

I don’t get the point of this thread. Do you seriously expect Anet to revamp the core of this game months after release? Or do you want someone to make a totally new game with this concept? If the latter, then why would you post it here?

And on the idea itself, it sounds like a lame game style for a competitive game. Imagine being able to one shot someone at full health because you got a lucky “executioner.” And, “realistically” why would you not throw fireballs from your hands from the get-go? Why would you pelt someone with pebbles instead until it “weakens” them enough for a fireball? Its so arbitrary and counter intuitive, not realistic.

I don’t get the point of this thread. Do you seriously expect Anet to revamp the core of this game months after release?

Nope, but it might influence their approach to future mechanics if they ever think about changes or alternative game modes. Ultimately, it’s just a discussion point.

And, “realistically” why would you not throw fireballs from your hands from the get-go?

It’s a compromise. Realistically, a battle would end very quickly, as someone says above. I’m trying to come up with a way for it to feel fairly, if not completely, realistic, in how it’s visually represented, while maintaining a system that lets it last a while. There are always creative solutions to questions like ‘why can’t you just pelt them with fireballs’. You just have to think.

You can’t possibly be telling me the current system feels remotely like you’re attacking someone with real weapons.

If you want longer fights, play a Greatsword Mesmer and fight at melee range.

Seriously though, I do agree that fights in MMOs these days are generally over too quickly and I’d like to see a bit more depth, though not necessarily realism.

That said, in GW2 the fast paced combat is just as well. We only have 5 attacks per weapon and often several of those are situational so we end up spamming 2 or 3 attacks per fight. Even with short fights this becomes dull quite quickly, spamming them for a longer fight, urgh no thanks.

I would like to see more interaction, thrust and counterthrust in GW2’s combat. The devs have tried to do this with the dodge mechanic and knockdowns/knockbacks etc. Trouble is, these mechanics are for the most part flaky / buggy – mobs knock you down at the start of the animation, not the end, mobs don’t telegraph their knockdowns so you can’t dodge them, that sort of thing.

As for realistic combat, you compare to films. But films are a total abstraction from reality in the name of entertainment. Real melee combat is rarely glamourous, frequently brutal and desperate and often sickening. Not exactly what most people want from a game.

Hey OP,

I think the gist of it though, is that (In my opinion) things don’t have to be realistic to be fun and immersive. But I think you got a great point.

It could introduce new forms of gameplay. If we all players had to eat and drink constantly to keep their fatigue to a minimum, that would be a strategy element as well. If you got wounded by an arrow and would be limp for weeks, it would impact gameplay.
If we had permanent death, every moment would be more significant, because the fear of death would be so much greater. Every moment would be enthralling and exciting because the character you invested hundreds of hours in could be gone instantly.

Thats the life for any soldier or warrior throughout history too. It could all be gone in the blink of an eye.

But I think people today are focused more on the destination than the journey. People dont want to risk their time having been wasted. It seems that it does not matter how much fun they had on their journey. All that matters is that it’s the destination and their impatience.

But we are like that everywhere. People used to listen to presidential debates for 12-15 hours without break. Now, we listen for a 5 minute sound byte before commercials. We are not geared as a culture for that anymore. Everything is about simple, efficent, for-dummies, and productive for the sake of production.

Have you seen the new video game War of the Roses? It might be your style of game; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9EJltFZOak

Cernow”

If you want longer fights, play a Greatsword Mesmer and fight at melee range.
Seriously though, I do agree that fights in MMOs these days are generally over too quickly and I’d like to see a bit more depth, though not necessarily realism.

Afraid that wasn’t my point – I was trying to keep the fight length the same while making the visual representation of it more believable, ie. when you do actually swing a massive blade through a soft body, it kills them. The way I envisage it, the fights would last just as long and there’d be the same spread of abilities, but low-damage abilities would look like low-damage abilities.

But I think people today are focused more on the destination than the journey. People dont want to risk their time having been wasted. It seems that it does not matter how much fun they had on their journey. All that matters is that it’s the destination and their impatience.

I agree, but that doesn’t make a more believable battle system impossible, imo.

Just imagine in GW2 had been presented exactly as it is now, except that most of your weapon abilities are replaced with minor hits and knocks. They do the same ‘damage’ and apply the same conditions, but visually, instead of you swinging a sword, you’re butting the enemy with your hilt.

Everything plays out exactly the same – it just looks different. Until, that is, the enemy has run out of health, when you use an execution style move that looks like the current blade swing. The difference is that this blade swing would actually kill them, like you’d expect it to.

I really think the simple test is as I said above: would you believe what you saw if it was happening in a fantasy film? Would we watch someone repeatedly firing arrows into the body of a wolf and go: “Oh, it’s just fantasy, so I’m not bothered.” Or hurling fireballs into an enemy, only for them to proceed unharmed? I doubt it. Would we believe it if the wizard started by using a searing touch a few times, then melted the ground to encumber his enemy’s movement, blinded him with a flash of fire and only then finished him off with a fireball? Maybe.

Thanks for the link, Sad Swordfish. Gives me more to chew on.

here is a realistic combat system: you get hit by a sword, stunned from pain and system shock you go down. A second thrust of the sword kills you. Roll another character.

There are good games with realisitc injury consequences, but I´d say mmorpg aren´t the place for that. Also, do you really think you could rebuild the combat system here as easy as that? You are basically asking to program another game – you think this is a request falling on fertile soil???

Sirevanac.3178:

hey, welcome to mmorpgs! Anything of what you propose doesnt happen in pretty much any game of the genre. Sorry to disappoint you, but this game won’t be the exception nethier. Pretty much because it’s not focused on reality, by far.

Now, going to what to propose (implying you are just new and not trolling): making a normal fight last around a minute would make it tedious and terribly repetitive. Not even to mention if its a boss.

This! If ordinary fights lasted an entire minute I wouldn’t even bother playing. Sometimes they can if you’re fighting many mobs at once, but that’s an unusual situation, just cripple, bleed, stall, wait for reflect projectile to go on CD if applicable (is vs. earth elementals at least), then dagger storm if thief.

“mobs don’t telegraph their knockdowns so you can’t dodge them, that sort of thing.”

Some mobs do (for example, when you see a purple light at the end of the risen farmer’s shovel you better dodge) though in many cases they don’t.

Agemnon.4608:

Some mobs do (for example, when you see a purple light at the end of the risen farmer’s shovel you better dodge) though in many cases they don’t.

Yeah I forgot to include the word “some”. Many don’t though. I’ve been trying to bugrep all the mobs that don’t telegraph knockdowns/knockbacks properly, or do the knockdown at the start of the animation not the end, or do it without any animation or visual / audible clue whatsoever. I was surprised to find there were so many, especially for a game whose devs trumpet how important “situational awareness” is.

Tyria != Earth
15c

Agemnon”

This! If ordinary fights lasted an entire minute I wouldn’t even bother playing.

Arrgrhhhh. How can this be the third time I have to point out that I’m not asking for fights to last longer? I want them to last the same amount of time but be more believably represented in terms of visuals. The reason I posted stipulation #2 is because that’s what the devs obviously considered a design stipulation in making this game, that ‘Fights need to last more than a second, ideally anything up to a minute for ordinary encounters, longer for bosses’. This is the game you already have. This is how MMORPGs currently work!

I just do not understand how any of you managed to get the idea from my original post that I’m proposing fights last longer! If anything, my system would give them the potential to be shorter – just not too much shorter:

My original post”

A fight lasts just as long …

How is that ambiguous??

Algreg”

There are good games with realisitc injury consequences, but I´d say mmorpg aren´t the place for that. Also, do you really think you could rebuild the combat system here as easy as that?

No, I don’t – I think this could just be a direction for the devs to explore in future, when developing extensions on this game or a new game. It’s too much to overhaul the whole thing from the ground up right now.

But how on earth can you say mmorpgs aren’t the place for what I suggest? The principle thing I’ve suggested changing in the future is the visual representation of the fight. Everything else stays pretty much the same, just with the introduction of a finishing blow system.

How about the bosses require learning tactics, a call and response type of thing rather than throwing out 1 shots, having huge unfun health pool (with often no change in gameplay for the player), and just many fights turning into a strait fest of auto-attacking.

“HEY I SWUNG A SWORD, HEY I SWUNG A SWORD AGAIN”

Focksbot.6798:

The responses here make me sad. Why do companies like ANet even both with graphics and storylines if none of you have any expectations of finding the experience suitably convincing as a possibly reality?

I hope you’re trolling.
This is a game

So why don’t we all just play chess? Why do we have the remotest interest in 3D worlds and polygonal sculpts of deadly-looking weapons?

Riselle”

It’s not really realistic anyways. And besides, we have no idea how real fighting in a world with magical powers would work. It’s like someone from the middle ages trying to describe “realistic” combat with jet fighters.

You make some good points about potential problems with the system but this is a bad point. We know what lightning and fire do to people. Here’s an easy test: would you accept what you see in GW2 if you saw it in a film? I think not.

Sirevanac”

Now, going to what to propose (implying you are just new and not trolling): making a normal fight last around a minute would make it tedious and terribly repetitive. Not even to mention if its a boss.

sigh The point is to keep the fights lasting whatever they last now. I thought it was around a minute. My point is that the only change is the way the fight is visually represented, not the mechanics or how long it lasts.

hey, welcome to mmorpgs!

Welcome to a thread where I try to envisage mmorpgs being better than they are, and people looking back on this era and not being able to understand why so many of us put up with so much that was ridiculous when the alternatives were obvious and reachable.

I don’t know why you expect reality, when its not the point. I mean, you set someone on fire and that’s some problem for the enemy to keep fighting. Same for electricity. The game COULD although make another animation for when they are blinded or snared to the floor. But that’s about it I think. You are thinking a whole new game rather than just a change.

Sirevanac”

I don’t know why you expect reality, when its not the point.

I don’t expect reality; I expect – or rather, I hope for – some vaguely, half way believable alternative reality, so that I can get lost in an escapist fantasy world and roleplay a skilled warrior.

Some time in the future, when games have developed creative solutions to many of their endemic problems, people will look back on GW2 and games like it as the equivalent of early CGI or zip drives – a move away from rolling dice or moving chess pieces but still miles away from a convincing world to inhabit.

I honestly believe A Bard’s Tale will hold up to scrutiny better, because people will look at it and say, “Well, they were working within the limitations of a system.” Whereas people will look at GW2 and say, “They had beautiful graphics, powerful computers, real-time hit detection, special effects and smooth animation – why didn’t they put any effort into making it look as if people were actually fighting?”

Focksbot.6798:

alternative reality

Key word being “alternative.”

I think you have a very simplistic idea about the amount of work you´d have to put into such a system. Thousands of animations for various states of injury on all character and monster models, for all attacks and all weapons, various positions etc. Not to mention the parent brigade that would want to put the game into the adult only bin, heck, no release in some countries at all.

You could have some bosses block upon a non-spam ability and have say a support elementalist use their icicle drop AoE to get them to blow their block and then the warrior, thief, etc., could go all out while the block is on CD as an example of such an intelligent AI and how to deal with that particular aspect (all while dodging out of red circles)