Guild Wars 2

I recently had a thread of mine locked, with good reason… and while it did devolve into juvenile mud slinging there at the end, it did raise som importat points that I’m hoping to constructively approah here.

It seems that a large portion of our player base is upset with the current status of the “meta” and want it to stop dictating to them the way they should play.

It also seems that the members of the “meta” do not like being told how to play either, and with good reason.

Both sides seem to have totally valid, though passionate, argumets for and against the other side.

So to get at the heart of the issue, and strive to make constructive progress that the design team could use to implement changes… I’d like to pose a queston, reworded a few times to properly express its nuance.

Why should our community be split into two separate parts?

Why should some game aspects be considered worthless or otherwise sub optimal?

Why should only one the sided dictate builds and gear to all the others?

Why does this split amongst us even exist?

What can we, as a community do to combat the negativity?

What change, or changes can be made to merge our two communities into a cohesive whole where the vast majority of angry or otherwise upset folks have different opinions?

Should we embrace the split?

Are our differences untenable?

So far I’ve seen one simple suggestion that I endorse.

Make Berserker gear primary stat ferocity, rather than power.

Though this would upset half of us, and cause the other side to breathe a sigh of relief… all of us, including myself, would be upset at our investment into the changed gear… and would certainly be only a small part of a larger fix.

Im curios if anyone else has ideas to solve and not perpetuate this issue.

Thanks in advance for your courtesy and constructive debate.

So you’re looking for another fix to a non-issue.

If you really really really don’t like the common meta, fine great.

Start up your own groups, form your own community, there’s nothing wrong with this and its how progression happens. It’s how “new metas” come to exist.

There is nothing wrong with multiple viewpoints and playstyles, there is however something incredibly wrong when one side of either argument forces their style on another.

As is the “meta” groups don’t do this, it’s a completely voluntary task some players have done. What i’ve yet to see is then anti-meta group attempt the same, instead they seem to be all bark and no bite.

I don’t do dungeons and don’t care about the meta. From my point of view you are as OCD and fixated on stats as the most rabid Meta Warrior. Let it go. No one is forcing you to join the meta groups and play like them. Make your own groups and play how you like. Why in the ever loving world do you feel the need to dictate to them how they play the dungeons and what stats they use to do it. Play your own way and stop worrying about how other people play!

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t do dungeons and don’t care about the meta. From my point of view you are as OCD and fixated on stats as the most rabid Meta Warrior. Let it go. No one is forcing you to join the meta groups and play like them. Make your own groups and play how you like. Why in the ever loving world do you feel the need to dictate to them how they play the dungeons and what stats they use to do it. Play your own way and stop worrying about how other people play!

Fleshy’s right, yo. The community ‘solved’ the problem a long time ago.
If it’s still a problem, it’s because people against the meta don’t like the snobby elitism from the meta, and the meta don’t like the ‘entitlement’ and loss of gold/hour from the non-meta.

It cannot be reconciled. The best we can hope for is other content (not 3-year-old dungeons) to promote better gear balancing and the devs to augment the weaker stats.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t do dungeons and don’t care about the meta. From my point of view you are as OCD and fixated on stats as the most rabid Meta Warrior. Let it go. No one is forcing you to join the meta groups and play like them. Make your own groups and play how you like. Why in the ever loving world do you feel the need to dictate to them how they play the dungeons and what stats they use to do it. Play your own way and stop worrying about how other people play!

This is basically how I feel about it.

The issue is with people, not the game.

People who want to take the scenic route will just have inherently different ways of playing as opposed to speedrunners. This goes far beyond stats and builds, which is why changing or nerfing whatnot is never going to help. Shifting what’s optimal actually hurts casual players more, because guess who can afford to regear more? Hardcore players that see mechanics changes will just adapt their theorycrafting around it.

What about stuff like mob skips and pulling and whatnot? Maybe the casual player doesn’t mind a wipe or two, etc while a serious group may not tolerate.

That’s the issue that seems to always get glossed over in this debate.

But yea, ultimately it’s a human issue. People should not join runs where they don’t meet their requirements, and people should not be rude when they don’t specifically list these requirements and expect all pugs to be magically experts.

Honestly, there is no issue. If players find a way to quickly do content, they’ll lean on a build. So if the new meta is to have 5 Longbow/Greatsword Rangers run a dungeon, our party won’t accept anything less. It’s nothing against you as a player. It’s all about efficiency.

Metas come and go. Anet does rebalancing to keep the game fresh. But players evolve and discover new builds, and thus a new meta is born. If you don’t want to deal with a pug group forming a meta build, then simply grab your friends and make your own party, with your own builds.

The game doesn’t force you to conform to our liking. WE force you to conform to our liking. Certain parties will have restrictions on what they want. Just like how an employer will have requirements for a position they’re hiring for. If you don’t meet the qualifications, you don’t get the job. Doesn’t matter if you have a PhD in Astrophysics if you can’t drive a forklift that the construction foreman needs. Hopefully my real world analogies help you understand.

If you don’t want to use the meta, you don’t have too, there’s nothing forcing you to run zerker only builds.

If you want to run a build that isn’t in the meta without the fear of getting kicked from a group, just start your own group, it’s really not hard.. I run non-‘meta’ builds all the time, i start my own groups and occasionally even join others, i never have any problems.

You can’t blame players however for naturally flocking to what is the most effective, and in this case, it’s most zerker builds as they’re capable of clearing content the quickest. As we all know, time is money.

In my opinion, there is no issue for the community at large. There are vocal minorities on either side of the spectrum (meta and anti-meta), which are trying to enforce their limited view of how the game should be played on everyone else.

However, the rest of us are perfectly capable to enjoy the game by playing in like-minded groups. So really, the only question is one you should ask yourself: Why can’t you let this rest?

While it is my personal opinion that encounter design that encourages/rewards (by virtue of better ratio of reward/time spent) skipping is a problem that should be addresses, the real solution here, as already mentioned, is to find like-minded people to play with.

I don’t give a care what the current meta is, with respect to what classes one should use or how they should be played. I play to have fun (though will readily admit a certain amount of effectiveness plays into that). I have found an amazing home with others who want to clear content and achieve great things together but don’t mind if it takes a little longer and encourage/teach people when they make a mistake.

And if following the meta, cranking out every last point of dps, and speed runs are your thing, that’s fine by me, and there are plenty of folks out there that want to do the same. The issues come when players of one type try to force their line of thinking on someone else, or when people join PuGs and expect everyone to be exactly like them. So if players can’t be flexible, then go find people who play the same way.

BrokenGlass.9356:

I recently had a thread of mine locked, with good reason… and while it did devolve into juvenile mud slinging there at the end, it did raise som importat points that I’m hoping to constructively approah here.

It seems that a large portion of our player base is upset with the current status of the “meta” and want it to stop dictating to them the way they should play.

It also seems that the members of the “meta” do not like being told how to play either, and with good reason.

Both sides seem to have totally valid, though passionate, argumets for and against the other side.

So to get at the heart of the issue, and strive to make constructive progress that the design team could use to implement changes… I’d like to pose a queston, reworded a few times to properly express its nuance.

Why should our community be split into two separate parts?

Why should some game aspects be considered worthless or otherwise sub optimal?

Why should only one the sided dictate builds and gear to all the others?

Why does this split amongst us even exist?

What can we, as a community do to combat the negativity?

What change, or changes can be made to merge our two communities into a cohesive whole where the vast majority of angry or otherwise upset folks have different opinions?

Should we embrace the split?

Are our differences untenable?

So far I’ve seen one simple suggestion that I endorse.

Make Berserker gear primary stat ferocity, rather than power.

Though this would upset half of us, and cause the other side to breathe a sigh of relief… all of us, including myself, would be upset at our investment into the changed gear… and would certainly be only a small part of a larger fix.

Im curios if anyone else has ideas to solve and not perpetuate this issue.

Thanks in advance for your courtesy and constructive debate.

I don’t care one little bit, when I want to do something like a dungeon, I start my own group and say all welcome, and its filled in moments. If people want to run around thinking they are “Elite” because they are a “meta” player, I’m fine with that, I don’t have to play with that group of people if I don’t want to. If a “non meta” player gets upset because a “meta” player dose not want them in there party that’s there problem.

No one at any point has a gun to your head and is telling you you have to play this way, no one. This is only a problem to people who make it a problem. If I want to run with the"meta" crowd, then I equip my Zerker gear and off I go. If I want to play my way, I can do that too.

The only problems in this game are the ones you make.

One thing that both the Meta-Only and these Non-Meta groups don’t seem to realize is that personality wise they are identical, which is why they have trouble with each other. I’ve seen Meta-Only come to the forums and say how everyone needs to be using only zerker gear and I’ve seen Non-Meta people come to the forum and do the same with non meta stats. Both groups are rigid in their thinking and both groups feel the need to bustle around and micromanage how other people have fun. The thought that someone, somewhere is having fun, but not the way they themselves have fun seems to burn the souls of both groups so they hurry to the forums to try to force the other side to play as they play.

Both sides need to learn that it’s not their job to supervise how others play. If someone wants to fast forward through a dungeon, it’s no concern of the Non-Meta. If he wants to roleplay walk through a dungeon and kill every mob in there, it’s no concern of the Meta-Only. The urge to micromanage those unrelated to them is common to both of these extreme groups and hopefully ANet never listens to them.

BrokenGlass.9356:

It seems that a large portion of our player base is upset with the current status of the “meta” and want it to stop dictating to them the way they should play.

I am not sure that the portion of the playerbase you refer to is all that large and no one is dictating to them the way they should play.

No matter what you do to stats, people are going to find a build and a way of doing things that is the most efficient. Your community will always be split between the ones that want to do things efficiently, and the ones that don’t really care.

There’s no way to get rid of that split, and there’s all ready a system in place to ensure that both types of players can coexist and that’s the LFG tool. Make a group with your own requirements.

The REAL problem are people who like to troll, who join groups that weren’t intended for them just to cause havoc. Otherwise, you can all ready play however you like, and create groups to attract people with the same mindset.

BrokenGlass.9356:

1) Why should our community be split into two separate parts?

2) Why should some game aspects be considered worthless or otherwise sub optimal?

3) Why should only one the sided dictate builds and gear to all the others?

4) Why does this split amongst us even exist?

5) What can we, as a community do to combat the negativity?

6) What change, or changes can be made to merge our two communities into a cohesive whole where the vast majority of angry or otherwise upset folks have different opinions?

7) Should we embrace the split?

8) Are our differences untenable?

Easiest to answer this way so I added numbers:

1) Why are we split? well, first it’s not 2 groups, it’s many, it’s because people have different goals and play styles, really simple.

2) No matter what you do there will be an optimal way to do things given certain parameters. A thread popped up about a clerics guard in a fractal trio not long ago, having ran with them (and I much enjoy it, would ilke to do more but find myself often busy), and a debate of course began. People didn’t understand the parameters given, the main one being that given imperfect play this clerics guard allows for smooth easy quick runs comparable if not better than they’d be with zerker gear. The key there is given imperfect play, something most glanced over.

Ease of play and skill levels are something many ignore in this game’s communities, and that changes optimization. So there are worthless builds and just sub-optimal builds, they are two VERY different things. 5X Nomad warriors is a worthless setup, well unless you enjoy afking your way through Lupi. A single Clerics guard or Ele or any profession with proficient healing abilities, while sub optimal certainly has value to make things easier.

So there will always be an optimal, and with that there will be sub-optimal, but worthless is a whole other thing they aren’t synonymous.

3) It shouldn’t, and it doesn’t, only jerks try to do this, but from both sides. I have no problem finding plenty of people in between, maybe promote what they find effective or promote the optimal, but there’s a big difference between promoting something and dictating it.

4) Same as the first question, because people have different goals, play styles, skill levels, and well, we’re not all the same.

5) We can start to stop it by not making the problem bigger than it is. Show respect to each other and stop demonizing the other group(s).

6) Nothing, people will always be different and have different goals. Some want to clear whole dungeons, some want to skip every little bit. Some enjoy stacking burst damage, some enjoy drawing out the fight just for fun. Some are great players able to actively defend every little bit, some may be capable but enjoy a safety net just in case, and then some just can’t so they find their own way to get it done. There’s nothing wrong with any of these things but they probably all don’t awnt to play together, and that’s fine.

7) Embrace, I find that a strange term, but I think we should accept it.

8) The thing we all share is liking this game as a whole and wanting to have fun whatever that fun is. Doesn’t mean we have to all like playing the same ways or have the same definition of fun.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t do dungeons and don’t care about the meta. From my point of view you are as OCD and fixated on stats as the most rabid Meta Warrior. Let it go. No one is forcing you to join the meta groups and play like them. Make your own groups and play how you like. Why in the ever loving world do you feel the need to dictate to them how they play the dungeons and what stats they use to do it. Play your own way and stop worrying about how other people play!

Once again, the Black Knight demonstrates why he’s one of my favorite posters on this forum.

The only problem is… or are the people who join groups that don’t fit them and try to enforce their views. Outside that there’s no problem in having different goals and definitions of fun.

As for changing zerk gear… fine everyone moves to Assassin… or uses ferocity main, whatever there will still be an optimal and nothing will change but a single label, hell people would still probably call it a zerker meta.

I’m honestly curious at this point. What do you see as the problem? That a lot of people like to play in a more optimal way and want to play with like minded people?

I can see this thread getting locked soon. It seems we are all in agreement. There are no problems, unless we as a player make it a problem.

A game based on farming and whose end-game goal is to amass gold will always be plagued with gold/hour, elitist and snobby mind-sets. It is not that easy to change this core principles sadly.

The “meta” is a concept that essentially evolves out of the available things and rules of a game progressing towards an efficiency (the efficiency may be in ease of execution like stacking (which isn’t the fastest way of doing the dungeon but new people can’t kitten it up) or efficiency in completing content like zerker tends to be (I haven’t read up on the Sinister experiments).

The “meta” will always exist because we’re humans and we like to investigate and find good ways of doing things, the meta is just those found good results brought together and distributed. You will never stop this happening its human nature.

People that don’t like this current meta and want it killed might not like the next one either – because there always will be a next one.

Games to stay fresh though SHOULD (imo) try and shake up the meta every now and then with new mechanics, skill changes, rebalancing etc and (hopefully) this is just around the corner with HoT inc.

As others have already stated, it’s a problem created by people. Even if the system were somehow changed to force some sort of unity, other forms of exclusion and toxicity will appear.

The only way you can eliminate stat discrimination is by making all the stats the same, but then people would discriminate based on class utilities; if you make all the class utilities the same to eliminate that discrimination, then people will continue to discriminate based on AP; if you hide AP then people will just start making black lists of “bad” players they happen to have a bad run with one day.

If you want to remove the motivation for this discrimination then you either have to make dungeons take a fixed amount of time to finish (so it cannot be rushed) or remove the incentive to rush by making all items free .

A perfectly egalitarian game is not a game anyone would want to play.

Too much whining about people who want meta builds in their LFG.

Why do you care so much about how others with to play the game?

There’s PLENTY of play-how-I-want players for you to group up with, so just respect the wishes of those who don’t want you in their group. Why is that so hard?

Every game has a meta for all areas of play. If there is a best way to do things in terms of damage there will always be a meta. I have no issues with this idea because I do the same thing. I find out what stats I need to do the big numbers and go with them. The issues with how the meta works in gw2 is that EVERYONE’S best option is berserker at the moment. You an ele? Zerker… You a warrior? Zerker….. I could go on. I do wish different classes had different stats that their damage scales from. When I played wow it gave a lot of class identity to speak with my warrior friend about gear. As a death knight I had the stats that worked best for my damage and they were different than the optimal choice for my friend. A lot of it has to do with class based reactive procs that I don’t believe exists in gw2 (correct me if im wrong). Everything’s best option being the same is soooo boring.

It’s not ‘zerker is best’ it’s ‘glass is best’. Engi right now is optimized best in Sinister gear in many situations. Assassins/Zerk mixes for many professions. The idea is no need for vit/toughness if you aren’t getting hit, and healing power can aid in ease of play but if everyone isn’t getting hit then that’s wasted as well. So what other stats do you want people to use assuming everyone is playing perfectly?

I’d love to see some procs that you need to react to. Like say you have an ability with a long cool down but your condi ticks can proceed a reduction blind it’s cd. Something that you see it pop up and it alters how you play. I think depending on how it’s done could throw a wrench in the meta. Maybe procs on getting hit. What if you could do more damage by taking more damage? Tank stats would be VERY important to that playstyle.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Every game has a meta for all areas of play. If there is a best way to do things in terms of damage there will always be a meta. I have no issues with this idea because I do the same thing. I find out what stats I need to do the big numbers and go with them. The issues with how the meta works in gw2 is that EVERYONE’S best option is berserker at the moment. You an ele? Zerker… You a warrior? Zerker….. I could go on. I do wish different classes had different stats that their damage scales from. When I played wow it gave a lot of class identity to speak with my warrior friend about gear. As a death knight I had the stats that worked best for my damage and they were different than the optimal choice for my friend. A lot of it has to do with class based reactive procs that I don’t believe exists in gw2 (correct me if im wrong). Everything’s best option being the same is soooo boring.

I’ve seen a lot of posts here that make good points, but this one encapsulates what I mean.

It’s not that “I can’t leave this alone” its that I genuinely want to be the best at what I do, whether it be healing, surviving the damage output of a zerg, bunkering points in pvp, or doing dps in a dungeon… and yes, I’ve been vocal, and unnecessarily snarky to several posters here. I’m sorry about it the foot printed feelings I’ve left in my wake, but I voice my exasperation in a way that tries to understand “why” and I have trouble handling it when no one is interested in finding the why, and only want to state that it “is”.

Honestly, as one of the above posters said, I do want to be elitist. I really do. But I don’t want to bring a super glass cannon build, on every character… because that is boring… I want my toon to feel different than the next guy while I’m going shoulder to shoulder with the elite.

I get frustrated, because the elite does not want me just because of my build, or gear… despite me having just as much skill.

And I’ll admit, I have “trolled” ’zerk only groups, due to this frustration, and I see that its part of the problem, so I wont do that anymore… “be part of the solution.” Right?

I guess what I’m getting at, is I’ll play with the non elite folks, the vast majority in the middle… but I get upset with failed builds that aren’t optimized for the best they can be at what they do.

Example: I met a minion master the other day who insisted on using Rabid gear. Just because he could use runes of the undead and convert monster toughness to condition damage…. yet he insisted on using an axe main hand, and warhorn off hand. (power weapons) then using dagger focus as his other weapon set. (which would have been better synergized by swapping the off hand between sets)

When I explained that the damage of his minions is derived from power, and that his weapons are for power builds, and suggested he use scepter/dagger switching staff, allowing the regen mark to heal this minions. Then switching to carrion armor, with runes of the afflicted, givers weapons, and rare veggi pizza, with toxic tuning crystals… he got upset with me. Never did I say “your build sucks bro… and I wont group with you because if it” in fact… I made him a full set of Carrion exotics. Just so he wouldn’t have to invest, so that he could test it out…. a sure fire mathematical improvement, that fit his theme, “condition minion master”. And he took it as an affront to his ego. (And lets not get things wrong here, he invited me to help him theory craft.) I didn’t boot him, like the other half would, I tried to help him optimize. Then ran fractals with his bad build anyway, and brought my Zealot ranger to carry him and some of the other folks… it was fun anyway.

I guess what I’m saying, is I wish there was an “elite meta” of folks who make the ‘best’ healing guardians, and the best condition minion masters, and the best zealot boon rangers…. or burn bleed elementalists.

I’m looking for a place I can post up my elementalist build in sinister and rabid, that at peak output has 2500 condi damage with 100% duration on its burns and bleeds. and have someone post something constructive, and not… “dude… its not ‘zerk and it sucks. I’m sorry you spent all this time writing that up, and I see you got good stats, but I don’t care, its not scholar ’zerk… so it sucks.”

If anyone knows where that place is, I’d be happy to go hang out there.

BrokenGlass.9356:

I guess what I’m saying, is I wish there was an “elite meta” of folks who make the ‘best’ healing guardians, and the best condition minion masters, and the best zealot boon rangers…. or burn bleed elementalists.

I’m looking for a place I can post up my elementalist build in sinister and rabid, that at peak output has 2500 condi damage with 100% duration on its burns and bleeds. and have someone post something constructive, and not… “dude… its not ‘zerk and it sucks. I’m sorry you spent all this time writing that up, and I see you got good stats, but I don’t care, its not scholar ’zerk… so it sucks.”

If anyone knows where that place is, I’d be happy to go hang out there.

Why not start your own group of elite non-“official”-meta players?

And in the mean time, I’m sure if you clearly state that you’re aware that the build doesn’t have the highest DPS, but are aiming to get as much X out of the build as you can while still doing Y, that you may get constructive feedback. And either dungeon or class specific forum depending on what you’re wanting to do.

There is no problems at all if people read and follow basic logic

For all the speedrunners/meta/elitists, just state in your LFG, this is what I want

If you aren’t speedrunning/running meta builds, DONT JOIN THAT LFG, simple as that

For all the casuals/fun build/take your time, watch cutscenes, etc players, just state in your LFG, this is what I want

If you aren’t running casual/fun builds , DONT JOIN THAT LFG, simple as that.

There is no problems at all if you just act logically…The meta is fine, there are no problems with it. But if you try to join a speed running/meta group AS a casual/fun build/unexperienced player, you will probably get kicked… its really simple.. just don’t join the opposite group of what you want to run…basic concept.

EVERY MMO has a hardcore/speed running community AND a casual/relaxed run community. GW2 is no different and its PERFECTLY FINE. Just DON’T JOIN THE WRONG LFG.

BrokenGlass.9356:

1.) Why should our community be split into two separate parts?

2.) Why should some game aspects be considered worthless or otherwise sub optimal?

3.) Why should only one the sided dictate builds and gear to all the others?

4.) Why does this split amongst us even exist?

5.) What can we, as a community do to combat the negativity?

6.) What change, or changes can be made to merge our two communities into a cohesive whole where the vast majority of angry or otherwise upset folks have different opinions?

7.) Should we embrace the split?

8.) Are our differences untenable?

1.) Because the community wants to be. There is no such thing as true balance. Period. It’s a theoretical impossibility. It can be a goal people try and chase as best as they can, but there will always be a “meta” in anything with literally any amount of strategy. An optimization will always be found at some point, somewhere.

In my experience playing the game, the only concerns over group composition have come from rightfully-justified statements that groups like four thieves probably aren’t going to work in a particular high level fractal. Typically this comes in the form of an expression of “oh god”, get a good laugh out of it, and we work out who has other more suitable characters. In pug dungeons, I’ve never been kicked, badmouthed, or even know anyone personally who has ever been kicked or bad-mouthed for joining on a “non-meta” class or build. I’ve also never joined advertised parties for speed clears, AP requirements, etc., nor have I ever done so. I’ve only had a few dungeon runs take a truly excessive amount of time and have only left a number I could probably keep track on one hand.

Reality is this, and it applies to both sides: play with like-minded people, and be considerate. If your build isn’t optimal, don’t expect to get optimal groups, and don’t try to force your way into them. Otherwise you’re dead weight to that group. Some people get a thrill out of completing content as fast as possible. If you’re strapped for time, don’t do a dungeon. Wait until you have more time to do it later, or get with a group of friends who can cover for you at the end if need be.

There are definitely jerks out there who pug run creating parties in LFG without mentioning requirements thinking it’s only okay to run optimal setups badmouthing those who do not. I’ve never experienced this or known anyone who has, but apparently it happens. I’d just laugh it off, and ask if they plan on setting any speed clear records with pugs. If they don’t concede that they’re being ridiculous, just drop the party and rejoin another, or see how your party members stand. I’ve kicked people requesting for build changes, and the party as a whole got a good laugh at the attitude for coming into a group expecting them to play per demands.

2.) Because optimization is completely objective. Optimization is always done with pretty much one thing in mind: Speed. Since reliability is a matter of player skill, and all content is designed to be achievable by all classes and builds, maximizing speed at the cost of ease of completion makes a lot of people happy. You don’t see a lot of world records for “world’s slowest” at things, because that just occupies the “never” timeframe. Speed increases also make people more money, which makes people happy, for then they can make more money in the same time spent playing, or spend less time grinding dungeons and more time, say, playing in WvW or RP’ing. Skins, food, gear— it all costs money— and as long as PvE content is by far the most rewarding in terms of cash and remains some of the easiest content— or rather, the most optimized form of making “cash” relative to their goals, people are going to be doing it even if they hate it. Additionally, the lack of new PvE content has put many people in a bore, for the freshness is far-gone and at this point all they have left to do is try and set records.

3.) It doesn’t. Again, unless you’re in the speed-clear crowd, nobody controls how you play. And if you’re in the speed-clear crowd and are complaining about the existence about optimized strategies, you don’t belong in the speed-clear crowd, because the entire point of speed-clearing is coming up and perfecting those optimizations. As for people demanding certain specs in LFG; maybe they’re practicing. Maybe they just came from a three-hour long path of CoF1 due to really unskilled and un-optimized groupmembers and just want to end P2. Maybe they’re testing to see if advertising that way actually does have an impact on things. Or maybe they’re just copying what their friend typed in because they’re still new. You don’t know. If it’s not for you, then don’t join. I make my parties almost exclusively in LFG when I run, and I’ve almost never had a wait longer than 5m. Usually the events locking dungeons are what bottlenecks me more than anything.

4.) It exists because people want to optimize their time spent for the rewards gained. It could be because they don’t have much time, just want more loot, desperately want to end their 967th run of a path ASAP because they’re bored but need money, it could be because they want to set a record (Why do people try and set world records for stupid things?), it could be that they are putting theorycrafting about a new build to the test in regards to enabling faster runs. There are may reasons. And none of these are stopping anyone from doing a dungeon without an optimized DPS build.

5.) Respect each other, make your own groups, and expect strange things from strangers. You’ll never be disappointed.

6.) The attitude. Seriously. I see so many complaints on these boards from both sides, and I go in-game, look at some of the players and see what they write in LFG, and they’re just hypocrites. I’ve had people join parties advertised as casual/no requirements talk trash and try and take over to make it a speed run, but I’ve also been verbally abused for just running a DPS build because some party member is upset I like to play glassy DPS and they don’t. Get over yourselves, and respect everyone’s opinions/preferences, and be kind when they don’t align.

7.) People have to. There will always be an optimized way of doing things unless all diversity is removed from the game’s systems and all encounters are against other players and every strategy is completely random within a non-defined game mode. AKA, there will always be optimization in pretty much anything and it’s completely unavoidable.

8.) Yes and no. Because optimization will always exist, because it’s human nature. You’re arguing fun vs optimization. I think people drastically overstate just how toxic the PvE scene is and how invasive the meta is. There are definitely class balance issues, some poor dungeon design problems, formats not providing enough rewards forcing people into PvE, etc., but the attitude will never change at the truly high-end speed clear scene, which is ultimately responsible for the creation of the meta. But that’s where they get their fun from, which everyone rightfully should be entitled to.

They just killed one of these threads because nothing every good comes from one.

Should there be more useful builds for party content like dungeons or fractals, sure. But right now the vast majority of PUGs forming for those events want to do them as quick as possible and that means a certain build, skills and tactics that if you are don’t have or are unfamiliar with need not apply. Respect the pugs requirements. But this goes both ways. Don’t join a learners PUG only to abandon it because they aren’t fast or knowledgeable of tactics and don’t hijack one because you are too lazy to put up your own LFG request.

If the Meta and non-Meta keep to themselves there won’t be friction but human nature means players are impatient and rather than group with there own will group with anyone and that’s when the calls about griefing comes out.

Problem is…serker is so much better then every thing else.

Some combos are even totally worthless in PvE.

ie. it’s common that anyone wearing all cleric’s gear like my ele is considered naked.

Reason why is that this stat combo is pretty much being naked; can’t get tags very well in events, produce next to no dps, the healing difference between 0 and 2k is marginal, and survivability wise in hard content…you will still die instantly just like a serker. So what’s the point?

Why does a set like cleric even exist if it has to suck so much compared to meta stats combos anyways.

No one wants to have a sub optimal player in their group, not even friends. They will just say: bring your serker pls. Meh.

Should rename game to: Beserkerwars 2.

The solution i can think of right now to adapt to this meta thing is if the devs would make a limit to an armor stat type to just 2 or 3 sets each armor type, the reason for this im saying is bec. right now some people who sports meta run in a full zerk builds are becoming outcasters and that i think is game breaking, in a sense to see people post in the lfg tools to link their zerk gears or dont join gives a negative impact on players mentality pressuring others to just go for a zerk path anyways cutting the idea of diversity. Full Zerk meta also offer the highest offense in game and that shouldnt be because as the game stands for no stat or class should be superior than the other, most of the defense and support stat types are already gone and almost becoming non existent but the offense part on this game is still prevalent so there should be a disparity and typing on each armor stat types which types should be offense, which should be defense and or support gears to make them more in balance with the idea that no build variety should be stronger or better than the other just like the concept of this long uncontrollable argument of whether to run a full zerker build for optimization or to be more diversed on our choices for a more flexible and engaging game play is really dividing the community and a solution has to be found and i think that combining the best of both ideas can be a key for this, then a more balancing for the direct damage, condition damage and crit damage approach should be assessed.

Ex. 2 zerk gear + 2 non zerk gear + 2 non zerk gear /
3 zerk + 3 non zerk (or anything that doesnt make anyone use a full set gear of anything)

Bec. As ive read and i do agree, why are these armor types where even created if only a set of zerk becomes the real flavor and the only optimal set in game? I want to taste something different too other than the sweet tatse of success and speed runs.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If you don’t meet the qualifications, you don’t get the job.

This is a game, not a friggin job.

Thought I’d point that out.

meta exists because players just want optimize the way they play the game with the limited time they have i.e. get things done as quickly as possible depending on the scenario.

can’t blame the players. blame the game design.

azizul.8469:

meta exists because players just want optimize the way they play the game with the limited time they have i.e. get things done as quickly as possible depending on the scenario.

can’t blame the players. blame the game design.

Chess has a meta game.. Its just a fact of life. Game design cannot prevent it.

Look guys. We get it. Respect LFG. I think we can all agree that is necessary. Let’s drop that concept. We are all going to respect LFG…. no, seriously we get it.

That said, what im getting at, is there is a clear best damage set. Sinister just poped into vying for that slot, but only for certain classes and I’m glad. What folks are missing from the point of this thread is that people do act like their way is the only way especially the speed clear crowd.

Now…. will there be a fastest way no matter what we do? Yep. But I’m not to defeatist to simply stop suggesting ideas to make everyone’s game play experience better.

Imagine for a moment, that there were at least three gear sets that folks were arguing over which is best for speed clearing. Then the LFG for those folks would say something like “speed clear only: experienced please” rather than “zerk only: link gear on join”

It changes the feel of that side of the meta to be more inclusive.

Say warrior’s are best in X gear…

And elementalist’s are best in Y gear…

And Necro’s are best in Z gear….

It shatters the “zerker meta” without hurting speed clear folks. It makes it obvious that speed clear is what your getting into. And it adds diversity. It let’s you take X class in Y gear, AND Z class in X gear, AND Z class in XY gear.

That diversity means there’s no meme to follow and to forget the point of. I want to rid the game of the “zerker meta” not the speed clear crowd.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Look guys. We get it. Respect LFG. I think we can all agree that is necessary. Let’s drop that concept. We are all going to respect LFG…. no, seriously we get it.

That said, what im getting at, is there is a clear best damage set. Sinister just poped into vying for that slot, but only for certain classes and I’m glad. What folks are missing from the point of this thread is that people do act like their way is the only way especially the speed clear crowd.

Now…. will there be a fastest way no matter what we do? Yep. But I’m not to defeatist to simply stop suggesting ideas to make everyone’s game play experience better.

Imagine for a moment, that there were at least three gear sets that folks were arguing over which is best for speed clearing. Then the LFG for those folks would say something like “speed clear only: experienced please” rather than “zerk only: link gear on join”

It changes the feel of that side of the meta to be more inclusive.

Say warrior’s are best in X gear…

And elementalist’s are best in Y gear…

And Necro’s are best in Z gear….

It shatters the “zerker meta” without hurting speed clear folks. It makes it obvious that speed clear is what your getting into. And it adds diversity. It let’s you take X class in Y gear, AND Z class in X gear, AND Z class in XY gear.

That diversity means there’s no meme to follow and to forget the point of. I want to rid the game of the “zerker meta” not the speed clear crowd.

A minority of the speed clear crowd think it should be their way or the highway. A minority of the non-speed clear crowd think it should be their way or the highway.

Stop assuming that just because the vocal minorities of each group are “loud” that it means that they are the majority. And none of us can say how large each minority is or which group is larger or which group is more vocal.

People in general are more likely to spout off on things that are negative. That’s why there are a lot more threads for: “I’m sick of being kicked for being X” or “I’m sick of having to carry people”.

The LFG would not read “speed clear only: experienced please” it would read: “speed clear only: X, Y, or Z ping gear”.

Given how each class is supposed to be able to fulfill all things, I doubt there would be a unique gear set per class. A few different types of gears may crop up for some types of builds, but not a unique one per class.

OP you’re asking to rewrite human nature and it’s not going to happen. There are always groups of people with different likes and dislikes, but there are also always people who see that their way is the only or “right” way.

I don’t push for a lot of changes I’d like to see in the game, because I know that a lot of the changes would only be positive to me and people like me, and I have no idea if we’re even close to a decent sized group.

But there are a lot of people who believe that this is the “right” way to play Guild Wars 2, and this problem exists on both sides of the fence.

If it weren’t the meta, we’d be arguing about something else.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Look guys. We get it. Respect LFG. I think we can all agree that is necessary. Let’s drop that concept. We are all going to respect LFG…. no, seriously we get it.

That said, what im getting at, is there is a clear best damage set. Sinister just poped into vying for that slot, but only for certain classes and I’m glad. What folks are missing from the point of this thread is that people do act like their way is the only way especially the speed clear crowd.

Now…. will there be a fastest way no matter what we do? Yep. But I’m not to defeatist to simply stop suggesting ideas to make everyone’s game play experience better.

Imagine for a moment, that there were at least three gear sets that folks were arguing over which is best for speed clearing. Then the LFG for those folks would say something like “speed clear only: experienced please” rather than “zerk only: link gear on join”

It changes the feel of that side of the meta to be more inclusive.

Say warrior’s are best in X gear…

And elementalist’s are best in Y gear…

And Necro’s are best in Z gear….

It shatters the “zerker meta” without hurting speed clear folks. It makes it obvious that speed clear is what your getting into. And it adds diversity. It let’s you take X class in Y gear, AND Z class in X gear, AND Z class in XY gear.

That diversity means there’s no meme to follow and to forget the point of. I want to rid the game of the “zerker meta” not the speed clear crowd.

If you want to get rid of the zerk meta, than ask anet to change their core philsopy to trinity… otherwise, DPS will always be the fastest options. Or wait and see what the new challenging content reveal will be and hope it has encounters where you might need a different spec than zerk to complete but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that.

Q: (a kind one^^) how exactly can you remove or give a solution to replace the zerker meta mentality when it is as of now the best and only sought after i think meta build req. for speed clearing etc. And still maintain speed run? Play fast? Simply ignore? You wont read other people just say “speed run lf valkyries, rabids, sinisters” now dont you oh wait maybe you can? Can you?

Coulter.2315:

azizul.8469:

meta exists because players just want optimize the way they play the game with the limited time they have i.e. get things done as quickly as possible depending on the scenario.

can’t blame the players. blame the game design.

Chess has a meta game.. Its just a fact of life. Game design cannot prevent it.

but but… GW2 is not chess

Here’s my theory on it….

There are people out there who don’t join guilds because it can be seen as a hassle or annoyance when playing the game. Although its an MMO, they still want to see how far they can go as a solo player, rather than group. The only compromise they find is doing dungeons with other people because, well, its not solo content (or meant to be).

Now, everyone think back to the first year of GW2, or better yet, look at what was posted much back then. A lot were about bugs and stuff, then ascended gear, then the loot nerf “bug”, and on and on. But one thing was requested and hounded for because it would make the game so much better for dungeons…

A LFG TOOL! Because ALL MMOs need that now!

And we got it, not in an automated way, you still had to pick the group yourself. But you could put in what you wanted in the description. And thats when people started seeing more and more “Zerker warrior and mesmer” speed runs in CoF, etc. And it was a VERY efficient way to make gold (till the locks happened).

And sadly, if you didnt have zerk gear because you didn’t like that playstyle, you were instant kicked (or not a specific class, etc). Was this right? No. Were they allowed to do this? Well, yes, sorry. (granted i mean kicking before entering the instance, or if someone is just being a pain by dying to everything and dragging the team down, it can warrent a kick during the instance. But kicking at the final boss I do not stand behind.)

But people seem bent on just JOINING an already made party, rather than MAKING THEIR OWN. That option is there, and I do it all the time when I want to run a dungeon. I just put “all welcomed” and poof! Instant party (except in the cases of the lesser run dungeons, they can take some time).

But please people, please. This works. You get your group and you get to do a dungeon. If you join a guild, that gives you another option to find players.

There will always, ALWAYS be a meta in a video game. Even if zerker falls from the meta, another will pop up, and the complaints can start again. It never ends.

In closing, just try forming your own groups, and stop caring about what others think of you. You’ll be a lot happier playing the game.

ArchonWing.9480:

The issue is with people, not the game.

People who want to take the scenic route will just have inherently different ways of playing as opposed to speedrunners. This goes far beyond stats and builds, which is why changing or nerfing whatnot is never going to help. Shifting what’s optimal actually hurts casual players more, because guess who can afford to regear more? Hardcore players that see mechanics changes will just adapt their theorycrafting around it.

What about stuff like mob skips and pulling and whatnot? Maybe the casual player doesn’t mind a wipe or two, etc while a serious group may not tolerate.

That’s the issue that seems to always get glossed over in this debate.

But yea, ultimately it’s a human issue. People should not join runs where they don’t meet their requirements, and people should not be rude when they don’t specifically list these requirements and expect all pugs to be magically experts.

This!

Its one of your best post.

BrokenGlass.9356:

I want to rid the game of the “zerker meta” not the speed clear crowd.

We know.

So instead of thinking this is Mc Donalds, go do your thing at Burger King and have it your way.

Hence why everyone is telling you, form your own community/group, build etc and play however the flying spaghetti monster you want to.

Stop trying to force your singular philosophy onto others and stop trying to invalidate their gear and work.

I will admit, I have not read the whole thread, but about the meta, it really is not an issue for me nor should it be for anyone else.
As someone with dungeoneer title, I have run a lot of dungeons however I have never run anything other than a condition sword/shield warrior which is obviously not even close to meta. I do try to help the group with banners and the like but tbh, my dps is terrible. For this reason I will never join a speedrun party, I do not want to spoil anyone’s experience in game and that includes joining parties that do not want me and will have to waste their game time kicking me. I respect their wish to get dungeons done as fast as possible. The parties I do join are 99% of the time have no requirements and the other 1% is ‘Experienced pls’ when I really don’t feel like going through the dungeon with new players, although I try to be as helpful as possible as much as I can.
As for the availability of non-meta groups, I never have an issue with them at all, even for fractal 49/50 and from my experience the zerker only groups are the tiny minority even there.
Of course in some non-meta groups there are people who don’t want me because I am not running zerker and do not act very nicely to say the least, to these I just continue being nice and explain that the group allows any builds, there is no point getting in an argument and, sorry if I sound harsh, I don’t care if someone doesn’t like me/insults me online.
So overall, me experience using the lfg tool (it is all I use as I have no organised group/guild) has been very positive and the vast majority of people have been very kind and helpful and allow people to play however they want. I have never been in a speedrun group though so I can’t speak for that side oftheargument, but honestly, if you don’t meet the group requirements but join anyway you are likely making the experience lessenjoyable for both yourself and the speedrunners.

I’m going to make a suggestion and it has nothing to do with LFG whatsoever. Purely to do with the manner with which people handle each other.

1. Meta players stop calling non-meta players casuals. It’s just very rude. Just because speed clearing isn’t my goal doesn’t make me a casual. I play the content for the content. I set deliberate limitations on myself in order to make the content hard but that doesn’t make me a casual. On the other end, non-meta players stop calling meta players elitists. Some of them are, but as has already been pointed out, there are also non-meta elitists. Stop labeling each other like this and people will be less annoyed that they’re treated rudely.

2. When someone asks for a way to make the playstyle they want to use viable, don’t just go shouting to the rooftops that it will never happen. The game was never intentionally designed so damage is the only way, if it was healing and toughness wouldn’t be stats. However as soon as someone suggests a valuable fix to healing power they get shouted down by people who don’t want it. Which is in itself people saying that their way is the only way and if you want to play another way get out.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Say warrior’s are best in X gear…

And elementalist’s are best in Y gear…

And Necro’s are best in Z gear….

So instead of “LF zerkers, ping gear or kick, 25k AP only” you want the LFG posts to be like “LF zerker Warrior, LF Sinister Necro, LF Knight Ele, ping gear or kick, 25k AP only”

Is there any difference?

Summary:

-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
-META….
-No META
…….
……….
…….
……….
And so on…

TL;DR

I think the problem is you have hard-core gamers mixed with casual gamers. I have lost count of how many times I have heard some variation of ‘you are doing WHAT with that class’. A frustrating one is trying to organize an event and having people respond that nobody needs organization. Sorry, but I am here to have fun (not that I do not appreciate advice like what stats to prioritize), rather than to get the most DPS or whatever someone else has as their personal goal.

I like how Anet has addressed this problem. There are different game modes. While PVE attracts more casual players hard-cores will find other modes attractive. I am not sure what you can do beyond that. If there were two entirely separate games you would still have people from one trying to play the other.

BeckaPL.2670:

I’m going to make a suggestion and it has nothing to do with LFG whatsoever. Purely to do with the manner with which people handle each other.

1. Meta players stop calling non-meta players casuals. It’s just very rude. Just because speed clearing isn’t my goal doesn’t make me a casual. I play the content for the content. I set deliberate limitations on myself in order to make the content hard but that doesn’t make me a casual. On the other end, non-meta players stop calling meta players elitists. Some of them are, but as has already been pointed out, there are also non-meta elitists. Stop labeling each other like this and people will be less annoyed that they’re treated rudely.

2. When someone asks for a way to make the playstyle they want to use viable, don’t just go shouting to the rooftops that it will never happen. The game was never intentionally designed so damage is the only way, if it was healing and toughness wouldn’t be stats. However as soon as someone suggests a valuable fix to healing power they get shouted down by people who don’t want it. Which is in itself people saying that their way is the only way and if you want to play another way get out.

^^ this

look….the rest of you all are saying what we all already know… and your missing my point entirely.

I do not want to change the way you play. I want to change what is available for me to play

I am not against there being a meta there will always be a meta of one type or another.

What I’m asking for is for there to be a few sets of gear, who’s DPS is so close that even the meta build theory crafter community can’t agree on what’s best.

I’m asking for multiple best ways to do DPS

Folks again misunderstand what I’m going for. If berserker gear remained tied for best, then folks who currently use it would loose nothing and other folks could join in their fun.

Now, before you post, please reread what I wrote, in this post at least three times, try to see what I mean.

“but then lfg would be….” arguments are just wrong. That’s if it becomes one best per class, Knights Ele’s, and Sinister Necro’s, and Rabid warriors, or whatever……

I’m suggesting a world where there are at least 3 different top dps spec’s per class

A world where the difference between these specs is so minimal, that when you join as any of these DPS specs, that the speed clear community has no reason to want to kick you.

To anyone paying attention, I have abandoned the notion that all players are one way or another.

I get that the problem folks on either side are a minority.

Again, lest I’m being unclear, I’m asking for there to be multiple best ways to dps per class

What would be wrong with that?

If that were true, wouldn’t things only be better than they are now?