A respectful request

A respectful request

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

Dear Anet,

Please, for the sake of your revenue stream, let us (the community) know that you’re still out there, watching and listening to your loyal peasants.

- WvW Golem bug still being abused (since the event started) — had to be said, sorry
- Lack of transparency (a PTS would be a huge first step)
- General thoughts on balance (specifically your thoughts, so we can engage in a constructive discussion)
- A roadmap (again, more of a “this is what we want to do” / “this is what we see for the future” kinda deal would be awesome!)

I liked the CDI threads from a while back, and I think that a lot of great feedback was provided during them.

In general, I think HoT is taking the game in the right direction, and the recent changes you’ve made have been awesome (unified wallet, specialization trees + PvE / PvP specific ‘builds’, to name a few). I just think that we, as the community, would appreciate a bit more information from on-high.

Despite its shortcomings, Destiny (in my opinion) had a very engaged Dev – player relationship, through their appointed manager (Deej), and it felt great to know where Bungie felt the game should be going. Companies end up retaining a lot more loyal (paying) customers this way, and I would love to see Anet take notice.

If you have the time, I appreciate you listening to one of your loyal players (since Lineage II).

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Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

What golem bug.
And Anet dident make lineage 2 their publisher did.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I agree with everything but not the public test server. I don’t think that the way Anet works right now, it would make a lick of difference.

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Posted by: EiLrahc.8076

EiLrahc.8076

I prefer the way ANet is currently rolling out the tests. It reminds me a lot of design thinking. The process always seems like a mess at the start but gains clarity through continuous revisions.

A public test server, on the other hand, is stable but cannot accommodate quick changes. It also builds up unnecessary expectations among testers that something significant will be implemented.

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Posted by: Glox.5942

Glox.5942

- Lack of transparency (a PTS would be a huge first step)
- General thoughts on balance (specifically your thoughts, so we can engage in a constructive discussion)
- A roadmap (again, more of a “this is what we want to do” / “this is what we see for the future” kinda deal would be awesome!)

Arenanet used to be better in those areas, but then the community ruined it.
The best example of this are the 2013 blog post where Arenanet shared the plans about what they WANTED to do in the future, the result was the community started to whine when some of the things was postponed or even cancelled.

After that Arenanet have been more careful about what they reveal of their plans.

(edited by Glox.5942)

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Posted by: sorudo.9054

sorudo.9054

- Lack of transparency (a PTS would be a huge first step)
- General thoughts on balance (specifically your thoughts, so we can engage in a constructive discussion)
- A roadmap (again, more of a “this is what we want to do” / “this is what we see for the future” kinda deal would be awesome!)

Arenanet used to be better in those areas, but then the community ruined it.
The best example of this are the 2013 blog post where Arenanet shared the plans about what they WANTED to do in the future, the result was the community started to whine when some of the things was postponed or even cancelled.

After that Arenanet have been more careful about what they reveal of their plans.

Anet has bin doing this for 10+ years, it’s more Anet that changed for the worse.
they used to be open, play around with the community and even do in-game events them selves.
better yet, they used to make a video about the upcoming expansion with explanation of what to expect, this gave the community peace of mind.

the current Anet is so closed down, we never get a proper preview and big changes are explained in the worst of ways.
they released 2 feature packs and failed horribly, they never explained any of them fully and changed so much without asking the players first of what they think of the change.
their communication towards players is horrible, even in the 5+ years after EotN they communicated better then 6 months after the release of GW2

you can blame the community but it starts with Anet, closing down isn’t the solution, communicating properly is key to success.

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Posted by: SirDrygan.1823

SirDrygan.1823

- Lack of transparency (a PTS would be a huge first step)
- General thoughts on balance (specifically your thoughts, so we can engage in a constructive discussion)
- A roadmap (again, more of a “this is what we want to do” / “this is what we see for the future” kinda deal would be awesome!)

Arenanet used to be better in those areas, but then the community ruined it.
The best example of this are the 2013 blog post where Arenanet shared the plans about what they WANTED to do in the future, the result was the community started to whine when some of the things was postponed or even cancelled.

After that Arenanet have been more careful about what they reveal of their plans.

Anet has bin doing this for 10+ years, it’s more Anet that changed for the worse.
they used to be open, play around with the community and even do in-game events them selves.
better yet, they used to make a video about the upcoming expansion with explanation of what to expect, this gave the community peace of mind.

the current Anet is so closed down, we never get a proper preview and big changes are explained in the worst of ways.
they released 2 feature packs and failed horribly, they never explained any of them fully and changed so much without asking the players first of what they think of the change.
their communication towards players is horrible, even in the 5+ years after EotN they communicated better then 6 months after the release of GW2

you can blame the community but it starts with Anet, closing down isn’t the solution, communicating properly is key to success.

I don’t think they cared anymore.

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

I don’t think it’s fair to say “they don’t care”; time is a finite resource, especially leading up to an expansion, and we don’t know where their priorities lie.

I suppose that’s my point — this game’s community is often praised as being one of the best parts of the game, yet the dev-player relationship (arguably one of the most important aspects of a ‘community’) is so spartan. We’re lacking responses and feedback on core aspects of the game. I’m not asking for specific solutions to bugs or balance; I would just love to see a high-level roadmap on where they plan to take the game in the near future.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I don’t think it’s fair to say “they don’t care”; time is a finite resource, especially leading up to an expansion, and we don’t know where their priorities lie.

I suppose that’s my point — this game’s community is often praised as being one of the best parts of the game, yet the dev-player relationship (arguably one of the most important aspects of a ‘community’) is so spartan. We’re lacking responses and feedback on core aspects of the game. I’m not asking for specific solutions to bugs or balance; I would just love to see a high-level roadmap on where they plan to take the game in the near future.

Policy exists for a reason. Frankly I think some of Anet’s policies are misguided, but then, sometimes I feel like this is a rabid fan base.

I mean I’ve played games before. I’ve seen people react to developers for years, but I’ve never seen quite the reaction of the Guild Wars 2 fan base. I’m not sure if it’s because this fan base is more dedicated, but they hang on every word, every phrase as if it’s some sort of holy writ. Then when something doesn’t happen, Anet gets accused of lying.

I’m not sure any company wants to see the word lies next to their name so publicly.

If they try to moderate that sort of thing off the forums, they’re accused of covering stuff up. So in order to not “lie” they simply don’t talk. That’s my best guess anyway.

I don’t think it’s the best solution or even a good one, but I believe that’s why this situation exists.

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

That makes a lot of sense, unfortunately. It sounds analogous to a bad breakup…they opened up to us, tried to engage us in conversations (CDI, for example), but we spurned them (the first cut is the deepest?)

Anet, learn to love again; time heals all wounds! Please talk to us.

Also, daily reminder that WvW is dying faster than Greece’s economy…read (just about) anything on your WvW forum.

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Posted by: Genavelle.9516

Genavelle.9516

The fact that the OP has to APOLOGIZE for bringing up a certain bug still being in the game is a big red flag if you ask me.

I am a WvW player.
Maguuma Server
Ranger and Necromancer.

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

Anet should spend time and people resources on a bug that will disappear in a couple of days as well as working on a map that will disappear when HoT is released? Really? I’d rather they keep working on HoT. New content (however buggy) is preferable to me personally. (echoes of words “cost effectiveness” seem to float in the far reaches of the Silverwastes and in the remote corners of Orr…)

Perhaps you all think you could back seat manage a group of code geeks, artists, and storytellers that think it’s only their way or the highway… I know I couldn’t. Please think a little deeper than the display on your monitor about what it takes to put a game like this out and (miraculously) keep it more or less working. The complexity of this game makes me shudder and I was a programmer for 20+ years… I’ve been in those internal meetings way too many times not to understand that flame proof underwear is not an option.

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Posted by: Basandra Skye.4031

Basandra Skye.4031

That makes a lot of sense, unfortunately. It sounds analogous to a bad breakup…they opened up to us, tried to engage us in conversations (CDI, for example), but we spurned them (the first cut is the deepest?)

Anet, learn to love again; time heals all wounds! Please talk to us.

Also, daily reminder that WvW is dying faster than Greece’s economy…read (just about) anything on your WvW forum.

Go read up on “precursor scavenger hunt” and you’ll quickly learn why Anet’s not going to change it’s policy any time soon. The large part of society today that plays mmos is, imo, unfortunately, the same part of society that grew up with easy access to things like cellphones and other instant gratification enablers. That translates to this forum as the excessively rabid responses to things as simple as “hey guys, something unforeseen came up, and as a result we’ve had to scrap a partially completed system as the previously mentioned unforeseen circumstances rendered the system obsolete.”

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Posted by: Lelling.6795

Lelling.6795

Anet should spend time and people resources on a bug that will disappear in a couple of days as well as working on a map that will disappear when HoT is released? Really? I’d rather they keep working on HoT. New content (however buggy) is preferable to me personally. (echoes of words “cost effectiveness” seem to float in the far reaches of the Silverwastes and in the remote corners of Orr…)

Perhaps you all think you could back seat manage a group of code geeks, artists, and storytellers that think it’s only their way or the highway… I know I couldn’t. Please think a little deeper than the display on your monitor about what it takes to put a game like this out and (miraculously) keep it more or less working. The complexity of this game makes me shudder and I was a programmer for 20+ years… I’ve been in those internal meetings way too many times not to understand that flame proof underwear is not an option.

I think you’re focusing too much on the golem issue and not enough on everything else that has been said.

Online / multiplayer game development isn’t just about developing a game, it’s also about communicating plans to the people who are playing that game. Heck, this is even true for single player games.

ArenaNet has definitely done A LOT of good in the past few months, and I really really like the direction they’re going into, with stuff like Points of Interest, and generally communicating more. But I’m just hoping they keep at it, or even intensify the amount of communication.

For me, personally, what they’re doing now is enough to trust they’re doing really cool things, but I know other players may need a lot more.

Cyan Vei | whole bunch of other alts
[DV] Leader, OpenCommunity admin

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

I think you’re focusing too much on the golem issue and not enough on everything else that has been said.

I think you misread what I intended to say. It would be a waste of time for Anet to fix the golem bug or rework the maps of areas destined to go away in the hear future.

The worst part of program development is to have someone come by everyday and say the requirements and goals have changed yet again. The constant demand to change this and that is the single-most reason projects fail. It’s annoying from customers (not always.. there are some very bright users out there) and deadly from the PTBs. Every seemingly little feature that’s added tends to create at least 5 new bugs to track down and fix each of which tend to create new bugs.

All I’m saying is that the requests (and in some cases, outright demands) of the community are over the top of the limit anyone could hope to respond to or address in the midst of trying to create a new update. You can’t just tack that on to existing code and expect it to work. Anet’s silence does not surprise me at all. There is no way they could respond without setting off another griping war b y the people who think they are being ignored.

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

To me, the idea of the golem event shows that they’re at least trying to test out new ideas, which is awesome; I was using the bug as an example of their general lack of communication with the (in this case WvW) community.

There summary of my OP was basically a request for more transparency from the devs on direction and priorities. I personally think it would help attract new players, looking for an active community, and retain current players wondering what to look forward to. The fact that a vocal minority of the forums would gripe is a bummer, but the rest of us would probably be excited to hear from the devs.

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Posted by: Lelling.6795

Lelling.6795

I think you’re focusing too much on the golem issue and not enough on everything else that has been said.

I think you misread what I intended to say. It would be a waste of time for Anet to fix the golem bug or rework the maps of areas destined to go away in the hear future.

The worst part of program development is to have someone come by everyday and say the requirements and goals have changed yet again. The constant demand to change this and that is the single-most reason projects fail. It’s annoying from customers (not always.. there are some very bright users out there) and deadly from the PTBs. Every seemingly little feature that’s added tends to create at least 5 new bugs to track down and fix each of which tend to create new bugs.

All I’m saying is that the requests (and in some cases, outright demands) of the community are over the top of the limit anyone could hope to respond to or address in the midst of trying to create a new update. You can’t just tack that on to existing code and expect it to work. Anet’s silence does not surprise me at all. There is no way they could respond without setting off another griping war b y the people who think they are being ignored.

Yes but that’s not what this thread is about. The op just mentioned the golem in passing.

The request was for more communication & transparency as to what is planned, and there have been many posts completely ignoring that and just focusing on the golem thing – also known as off topic replies that don’t really contribute to the argument.

In general (not directed at you, Jimson), I don’t really see a valid argument in this thread against ArenaNet conveying even more of their thought process through to the players, especially those who can’t find their way around Twitch.

Cyan Vei | whole bunch of other alts
[DV] Leader, OpenCommunity admin

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Posted by: lujate.5432

lujate.5432


The worst part of program development is to have someone come by everyday and say the requirements and goals have changed yet again. The constant demand to change this and that is the single-most reason projects fail.

In my experience, the desire to “boil the ocean” is the worst culprit. Ready to release fixes/features are delayed waiting on other, completely unrelated, fixes/features.

Speaking of personal experience here, not making any claim about insider knowledge of ANet.

“Queen of Cheese Builds”

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

I agree that it would be very welcome for Anet to be able to respond to the many(!) requests for information. Unfortunately, it looks like every time Anet sticks their head out here on the forums, someone is waiting to swing their greatsword at them if they don’t say what someone thinks the community wants to hear. Should a dev jokingly muse about creating fuzzy pink slippers for when you were lounging around AFK in LA there would be 10 threads screaming about why isn’t it out and when will we get them. I sometimes think Anet is just hunkered down in an outpost waiting for the Risen trebuchets to stop.

Perhaps Anet might respond to more reasonable requests than “I want it because I want it!” (Too bad the reasonable requests get drowned out by the whiners.)

(edited by Jimson.5168)

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Posted by: Wwefan.4982

Wwefan.4982

Also Anet have only ever made GW1 and 2 they have no other games in their name NCSoft however they publish many games.

Sylvari mean

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Posted by: Basandra Skye.4031

Basandra Skye.4031

In general (not directed at you, Jimson), I don’t really see a valid argument in this thread against ArenaNet conveying even more of their thought process through to the players, especially those who can’t find their way around Twitch.

You can find it in basically every kitten thread on the forums, especially those over precursor crafting. Why bother communicating when the seemingly vast majority of out-of-game feedback is just endless kittening about things? Players are gonna kitten whether or not you communicate what you want to do, so… why put forth any effort talking to someone who’s just going to kitten at you regardless?

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

Vocal minority :/

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Posted by: Kosmo.5187

Kosmo.5187

I think it’s important to distinguish between those who level unreasonable criticism at the company versus those who have valid concerns. I’m in complete agreement with many of the above posters; they’ll get a storm of complaints regardless of what they do, so why not at least work to satisfy those of us who can in fact handle information, even of the changeable kind? People of the rational sort also tend to be forgiving if something doesn’t pan out, but not always if they’re met with a wall of silence versus that of an explanation. They’ve made lots of money on this game, and “hiring more people” isn’t always something a company can do to accelerate certain aspects of game development, but hiring a person to create this bridge is definitely possible.

Lately, or after me coming back following a long break, it seems the only significant response to concerns have been when they really dipped too deep into people’s pockets with the whole expansion business and had to adjust their approach (slightly). It’s disconcerting when the primary communication is relegated to PR emergencies. Lots of things are puzzling about the game, previous promises unfulfilled, and so on, but silence is more puzzling, and in many ways, condescending. They don’t owe us anything, sure, but following the grandiose promises of openness and being different from other companies following launch, this is a cup of tea that is all the more bitter, and they’re still wanting us to drink it (since they’re a business and want money).

There are many things in the game I have no clue about why they implemented the way they did, and they don’t seem to be in a hurry to explain their product. I don’t think dumbing it down is the solution; I think clearly and concisely explaining your motives behind the different systems would be infinitely more effective.

My recommendation: They should don their best flame suit and do it for those who appreciate it. We may be a minority, we may have critique, but show me anyone who can make any product this involved without it.

The attitude “there was whining so we stopped” isn’t a good one; of course there was going to be whining. I’d be surprised if this was their (only) rationale.

Think of the possibilities.

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Posted by: Torsailr.8456

Torsailr.8456

Almost a year ago Mike Obrien came to the forum to reiterate their communication policies and told us they would try to be more talkative. Since then communication has only gotten worse as a whole. I wouldn’t hold my breath for any changes.

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

I think the general negative sentiment (whether it be about communication, bugs, or other factors) amongst the community is going to end up changing the perception of this game for the worse, specifically for new potential players.

Gw2 has been hailed time and again for its great community on several reputable review sites and by well-known streamers. It’s going to be a shame to see that change.

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

If it hasn’t changed yet, it won’t change now. Players don’t understand how significant their attitudes and behaviours affect the overall feel of the game. Just look at how people treat each other doing dungeons … then think about why Anet gave up on dungeons in GW2.

It’s easy to point the finger and blame Anet for a lack of or poor communications. It’s not so easy to point back and recognize it’s a two way street. Anet did right for GW2 to restrict it’s communication to players because players were just frothing at the mouth at any chance they could. At least if Anet limits their interaction with us, the more intelligent population will recognize that player vitriol will be based more on speculation than reality. Sorry, but players ruined this, not Anet.

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

I should’ve fanagled this post into this HoT subforum — the devs seem to be spending all of their time there.

I hesitate using WvW as an example again, but it’s currently a stark contrast to the HoT forum. It’s gotten so bad that people have started to post topics on other subforums to try (beg?) to get Anet to acknowledge that there’s a rampant game-breaking bug currently in the wild.

Fixing a bug on a temporary event doesn’t make sense, obviously, but you’d think they could prematurely pull the event offline. Instead, that forum is a developer deadzone. WvW is being hyped up for HoT, and I understand there’s a lot of development required, but still…

(edited by thereison.3926)

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Posted by: Tigaseye.2047

Tigaseye.2047

Honestly, I think they read stuff.

Just because they don’t answer, or (sometimes) act, doesn’t mean they’re not reading.

My guess is that they just don’t think the golem thing is worth worrying about for 1 week.

Whether they’re right about that, or not, I’m not sure?

Because bad experiences can add up.

Nails in coffins…

My opinion is that they should have been a bit more thorough in their testing, before releasing this event.

BTW, did this bug predate the event and was it only the mass use of golems (for low sup cost) that exposed it?

Or did it only occur after the event was launched, for some reason?

As for balance – that is, obviously, really important and should be constantly monitored and adjusted.

Of course, they have to take what many players say about it with a big pinch of salt, though.

As many people just want their own favourite classes to be OP and what they view as their main opposition (or least favourite classes) to be nerfed and they will, shamelessly, campaign for that; whether it is fair, or (most likely) not.

“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth

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Posted by: thereison.3926

thereison.3926

From what I’ve gathered, the bug can be exploited AND it can happen by accident, but whether or not it was present pre-event, I’m not sure. Regardless, it hasn’t been acknowledged, which is odd considering how they led up to the Golem event (they’re ‘trying new things’, ‘watching closely’, etc.).

I don’t care much about class balance; I’m not ultra competitive (most of the time). I’m actually more curious in how they perceive the class’s differing philosophies. I guess we’re getting some glimpses into that with the elite spec reveals, which sorta works.

Back to my original point, which I only used WvW to bolster, I simply believe they need to be more interactive with the community. That’s why they have “forum specialists”, right? All the chatter seems to be going on in the HoT subforum, which is understandable considering the hype that it’s generating, but they need a better balance.