We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
ANet and the case of Insider Trading
People who say that this does not affect players who don’t invest are wrong. If everyone had the opportunity to invest on an item when a patch launched, there would be more players selling the affected items in the TP. You wouldn’t have only 5 people, who are likely working together, selling the majority of the supply. That means that competition would be relevant, and that the prices would increase by a smaller amount.
If everyone had the opportunity to invest on an item when a patch launched, there would be more players selling the affected items in the TP. You wouldn’t have only 5 people, who are likely working together, selling the majority of the supply. That means that competition would be relevant, and that the prices would increase by a smaller amount.
Other way around. Increased demand pre-patch from trading on inside information increases price and reduces consumption pre-patch. Post-patch, that supply is released, resulting in a supply that is higher, and a price that is lower, than the counterfactual world without people trading on inside information.
It doesn’t matter if that accurate information comes from detailed analysis, an inside source, or a magic 8 ball. Trading on accurate information about the future value of some commodity increases the efficiency of the market and makes people better off in general.
If everyone had the opportunity to invest on an item when a patch launched, there would be more players selling the affected items in the TP. You wouldn’t have only 5 people, who are likely working together, selling the majority of the supply. That means that competition would be relevant, and that the prices would increase by a smaller amount.
Other way around. Increased demand pre-patch from trading on inside information increases price and reduces consumption pre-patch. Post-patch, that supply is released, resulting in a supply that is higher, and a price that is lower, than the counterfactual world without people trading on inside information.
It doesn’t matter if that accurate information comes from detailed analysis, an inside source, or a magic 8 ball. Trading on accurate information about the future value of some commodity increases the efficiency of the market and makes people better off in general.
I was referring to the amount of people that have the information. If only 5 people hoard all the items, they can set the prices, and nobody can do anything about it until more supply has been generated. If more people knew about the changes, the prices would be harder to manipulate for that minority.
People who say that this does not affect players who don’t invest are wrong. If everyone had the opportunity to invest on an item when a patch launched, there would be more players selling the affected items in the TP. You wouldn’t have only 5 people, who are likely working together, selling the majority of the supply. That means that competition would be relevant, and that the prices would increase by a smaller amount.
To sell the majority of the supply they had to buy it first. And that’s only the supply on the TP. And if the information was first released publicly, with the same lead time, not everyone will be able to take advantage of that information, or even notice it’s posted, and any opportunity will be gone within an hour or two. Certainly more players would get in on it but if you were at work or asleep or out at a movie or dinner, you are just as out of luck as when it was just a leak.
So instead of 5, lets say 5,000 hear about it out of an active player population of 100,000 (yes, yes, numbers … butt) and were in a position to act on it in the hour or two to buy up all the supply.
First, 95% of the active player base unaffected by the leak in the first place since they didn’t/couldn’t take advantage of the information. Second of the 5,000, those who acted sooner than later and had more gold to invest would make more, so it’s not like all 5,000 would split that profit evenly. Third, conversely it also means that those 5 didn’t lose 99.9% of their profit as they obviously had significantly higher sums of gold than most players which to invest. I would SWAG they would have lost only 50-75% of their windfall.
This thread is about players wanting their pound of flesh as most players would have been unaffected even with a public release of any TP related information.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
I was referring to the amount of people that have the information. If only 5 people hoard all the items, they can set the prices, and nobody can do anything about it until more supply has been generated. If more people knew about the changes, the prices would be harder to manipulate for that minority.
If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that people trading on inside information have market power, and are working as a cartel to keep prices above their fair market value?
Do you have, like, any evidence at all that things actually work that way?
I was referring to the amount of people that have the information. If only 5 people hoard all the items, they can set the prices, and nobody can do anything about it until more supply has been generated. If more people knew about the changes, the prices would be harder to manipulate for that minority.
If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that people trading on inside information have market power, and are working as a cartel to keep prices above their fair market value?
Do you have, like, any evidence at all that things actually work that way?
I have no evidence that this is happening, but it definitely a possibility. Even if they aren’t working together, they are still a limited amount of people, which means that there is less competition. It’s not like they would want to sell all of their supply in one go.
People who say that this does not affect players who don’t invest are wrong. If everyone had the opportunity to invest on an item when a patch launched, there would be more players selling the affected items in the TP. You wouldn’t have only 5 people, who are likely working together, selling the majority of the supply. That means that competition would be relevant, and that the prices would increase by a smaller amount.
To sell the majority of the supply they had to buy it first. And that’s only the supply on the TP. And if the information was first released publicly, with the same lead time, not everyone will be able to take advantage of that information, or even notice it’s posted, and any opportunity will be gone within an hour or two. Certainly more players would get in on it but if you were at work or asleep or out at a movie or dinner, you are just as out of luck as when it was just a leak.
So instead of 5, lets say 5,000 hear about it out of an active player population of 100,000 (yes, yes, numbers … butt) and were in a position to act on it in the hour or two to buy up all the supply.
First, 95% of the active player base unaffected by the leak in the first place since they didn’t/couldn’t take advantage of the information. Second of the 5,000, those who acted sooner than later and had more gold to invest would make more, so it’s not like all 5,000 would split that profit evenly. Third, conversely it also means that those 5 didn’t lose 99.9% of their profit as they obviously had significantly higher sums of gold than most players which to invest. I would SWAG they would have lost only 50-75% of their windfall.
This thread is about players wanting their pound of flesh as most players would have been unaffected even with a public release of any TP related information.
You don’t have to be taking advantage of the market to be affected. If you are a buyer, you would naturally prefer to buy your product at lower prices. If there are less suppliers, there is less competition, which leaves more room for sellers to have higher prices. If a very limited amount of people know about a product that will become valuable, they can buy it all up, which reduces the amount of suppliers.
Of course, the price of the product would rise either way because ANet made it more useful. However, if only a limited amount of people have most of the supply, I argue that the price will increase even more.
(edited by Ganathar.4956)
I have no evidence that this is happening, but it definitely a possibility. Even if they aren’t working together, they are still a limited amount of people, which means that there is less competition. It’s not like they would want to sell all of their supply in one go.
There isn’t any mechanism to control the means of production in GW2 – production of every commodity is distributed with no barriers to entry. Without control there isn’t a mechanism to profitably exert market power – I don’t really care if someone wants to lose a whole lot of money buying high and selling low to ‘control’ a market.’
I would not expect a speculator to sell off all stock in one go; hell I would count on them not doing it. Speculation smooths prices over long periods of time, after all; people don’t just dump newly valuable goods down below their original price for the sake of pushing it all out immediately, after all.
I have no evidence that this is happening, but it definitely a possibility. Even if they aren’t working together, they are still a limited amount of people, which means that there is less competition. It’s not like they would want to sell all of their supply in one go.
There isn’t any mechanism to control the means of production in GW2 – production of every commodity is distributed with no barriers to entry. Without control there isn’t a mechanism to profitably exert market power – I don’t really care if someone wants to lose a whole lot of money buying high and selling low to ‘control’ a market.’
I would not expect a speculator to sell off all stock in one go; hell I would count on them not doing it. Speculation smooths prices over long periods of time, after all; people don’t just dump newly valuable goods down below their original price for the sake of pushing it all out immediately, after all.
Actually, it depends on the commodity. For example, even if Anet makes mithril much more useful, and a beta tester tries to take advantage of it, he won’t be able to. If mithril becomes too valuable, players can go out and mine as much as they want. However, if this happens with something like mystic coins, it is much easier to corner the market, because players cannot realiably get mystic coins outside their daily login rewards.
lol oh no, you buy gems knowing what you are doing and have some left over. Whatever will we do this is an outrage! /sarcasm. Gtfo.
lol ur mad.
I don’t know what’s more disturbing: the fact that ArenaNet does nothing about insider trading or the fact that they openly mock those who are bothered that stopping insider trading doesn’t seem to be priority (as John Smith has done in this very topic).
I don’t know what’s more disturbing: the fact that ArenaNet does nothing about insider trading or the fact that they openly mock those who are bothered that stopping insider trading doesn’t seem to be priority (as John Smith has done in this very topic).
He didn’t openly mock it this thread, just the phrase “salami slicing”, expecting it to be some slang the kids use nowadays.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Actually, it depends on the commodity. For example, even if Anet makes mithril much more useful, and a beta tester tries to take advantage of it, he won’t be able to. If mithril becomes too valuable, players can go out and mine as much as they want. However, if this happens with something like mystic coins, it is much easier to corner the market, because players cannot realiably get mystic coins outside their daily login rewards.
You can’t ‘corner the market’ on either mithril ore or mystic coins – in both cases you can only buy up outputs, the inputs are non-rival and non-transferable. The elasticity of supply doesn’t change this reality. It will impact how quickly someone will lose money from attempting to manipulate prices, for instance, or how quickly the market will correct itself, but not whether or not they will lose money.
From a speculation perspective, the only difference between something like mithril and something like mystic coins is how much I would expect prices to move in response to a change – the price of mithril would be expected to move less than the price of mystic coins to a proportional change in demand.
You’re mixing mechanisms here. Trading using inside information may let you profit from buying before an exogenous change that shifts prices upward, and then selling afterward at a profit. Players can do this as price takers, because the profits stem from the functional, outside change, not anything in the market.
The mechanism you propose is that buying up a bunch of a commodity gives you market power and allows you to set prices. First off, no, that doesn’t actually work (it doesn’t work at all in a game economy; it kinda sorta maybe works in financial markets when you can leverage up your holdings to create a bubble, but that depends on lenders not recognizing that all you are doing is blowing up a bubble), and second, even if it did work, it’s not clear how insider trading interacts with this at all – that is, why would doing this during an external change in supply / demand make this (losing) strategy any better?
The user who is updating the Reddit threads on this issue has refreshed his request: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/503j3c/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
Doing the same here. Please be aware that aside from John Smith’s comments in this thread, and Isiah Cartwright stating that he’d look into it, over a month ago, we still haven’t received any updates.
If an ANet employee is tracking this thread, please escalate the issue, and let us know that this is still being actively worked on. Thank you.
Arena Nets are used to catch Gladiator Fish.
The user who is updating the Reddit threads on this issue has refreshed his request: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/503j3c/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
Doing the same here. Please be aware that aside from John Smith’s comments in this thread, and Isiah Cartwright stating that he’d look into it, over a month ago, we still haven’t received any updates.
If an ANet employee is tracking this thread, please escalate the issue, and let us know that this is still being actively worked on. Thank you.
You keep assuming there’s an obligation to report to you, or to talk about it openly, that doesn’t exist. There are many better and more noble causes in this world to champion; ones that affect the quality/safety of people’s day-to-day real lives and not their preferred video game entertainment’s fake economy.
~EW
People are only just picking up on this?
It’s been going on for a long time.
It goes a little like something like this…
Monday, Someone starts buying up all the onions on the TP, hundreds of thousands of them.
Tuesday, A patch comes out that introduces I dunno some sort of Ogre themed collection, part of which is a stack of onions.
Guy/Guys from Monday make a kitten tonne of gold with the new drive to get onions, that they ‘somehow’ knew to buy up before the patch.
It’s pretty happened on every major change, even with no ‘hint’ to the public that something is coming.
Let me ask you this….can you, honestly, trust a man who uses an overly grand and dramatic writing style to make an accusation with little to no actual evidence?
Is it “merely coincidence” that he uses excessive amounts of quotations to imply coincidence when a direct link would not be deduced if the evidence was presented neutrally?
Is it “merely coincidence” that he uses a writing style with phrases like “I will let you answer that” or “Let me ask you this” that imply neutrality when he is also leading people to the conclusion he wants them to draw?
Is it “merely coincidence” that his writing style implies guilt has already been clearly established when the evidence presented could be explained with half a dozen or more benign and completely reasonable explanations?
I will let you answer that, but to me, this is just like writing on the wall that points to one and only one truth.
He’s full of kitten and he knows it.
But seriously, dude, writing like this isn’t helping promote actual discussion nor is it scoring you any points with anyone with high school level critical thinking skills.
So then, let me ask one more question: Is it “merely coincidence” that John Smith has not answered me, or the community, with any explanation within 24 hours of this post being created? Since you like to pick apart my issue, let me be more specific: Is it merely coincidence that he hasn’t replied on how the involved parties (may or may not be a dev, directly) knew to begin dumping the items in question, and steadily lowering the price over the course of a month, or two?
Troll me all you want, but i’d like some answers, and i can assure you that it wasn’t “dumb luck” or “intelligent marketing”, or even “leaked patch details from a previous patch”. I can assure you of these things, because as a community, we are so driven for any “bone”(of information) that ANet throws to us, in terms of news, or progress on this game, that as soon as one person knows it, it goes viral both here, and on the subreddit.
And, its not only JUST the halloween skins. My community brought me up to speed on other incidents, just like this one. Such as the items on the TP that were collection items for an achievement called “Treasure hunter”. Apparently, the prices on these items soared, just before the announcement or patch was rolled out, where these changes went live.
Again, trolling me, is trolling yourselves. I understand you are so passionate about the game, that any idea of deceit from a company you’ve come to love and trust is the foulest thing you can imagine. It may not even be something the company condones. It may just be some dev’s buddies who got some insight that led them to this advantage on the market. That being said, i believe that ANet owes its playerbase some sort of assurance that the issue has been found, resolved, and will be prevented the next time something like this could potentially occur.
So, call everything i say is a fallacy, but the evidence is in the community’s observations, which have been thoroughly documented, not only on these forums, but on the subreddit as well. I think we deserve some sort of fairplay assurances from ANet internally, as well as their rules on hacking and cheating.
Show us the proof. Otherwise it is hearsay.
They are only two things they can do to “investigate”.
First check the TP records of the “known” accounts of people who received an official heads up about the patch and see if they conducted any trading on items outlined in the patch notes.
Second is identity the accounts of players who did buy certain items ahead of the patch and see if they is an obvious relationship to anyone who got the patch notes ahead of time.
They can’t see any interaction between players outside of the in game communication channels so unless someone was being very, very dumb, there will be no smoking gun to act upon. End of story.
You all want blood and you aren’t going to get it because if any action is taken, ANet isn’t going to be the one talking about it unless challenged in the forums by the parties that had action taken on them. You yell as much as you want, a “we’ll look into it” is likely the only communication you will ever get.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
The best way to stop the insider info is to have a PBE server that gets everything far before the live production servers. Also having everything published on these forums rather than forcing people to go to 3rd party sites would help. I know arenanet likes to use the excuse of wanting things to be a surprise. The current way things are done gives huge advantages to select individuals like developer friends/family, 3rd party sites friends/family, and the lucky few play testers and their friends and families. It is like choosing every update who gets to win the lotto. If every patch I was privy to what items are about to skyrocket and I know this info weeks or even months a head of time, then I can start stocking up and get rich. Let a select few do this multiple times over a games life span and it is complete BS.
They are only two things they can do to “investigate”.
First check the TP records of the “known” accounts of people who received an official heads up about the patch and see if they conducted any trading on items outlined in the patch notes.
Second is identity the accounts of players who did buy certain items ahead of the patch and see if they is an obvious relationship to anyone who got the patch notes ahead of time.
They can’t see any interaction between players outside of the in game communication channels so unless someone was being very, very dumb, there will be no smoking gun to act upon. End of story.
You all want blood and you aren’t going to get it because if any action is taken, ANet isn’t going to be the one talking about it unless challenged in the forums by the parties that had action taken on them. You yell as much as you want, a “we’ll look into it” is likely the only communication you will ever get.
There won’t ever be an investigation but if they were transparent so it wasn’t just a few people with the information then this would be much less of an issue. The issue lies in the secrecy.
There won’t ever be an investigation but if they were transparent so it wasn’t just a few people with the information then this would be much less of an issue. The issue lies in the secrecy.
So let’s say they release it to everyone at the same time. Then the people who can’t get online for whatever reason, say sleep, work, eating, school, the moment the notes drop won’t be able to act upon it. Those players still miss out from acting on the info. After all something that significantly shifts the value of something on the TP takes less than an hour, sometimes less than 15 minutes depending on the static supply.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
if anyone gets caught red handed i think they should get punished of course but i also dont think its a feasible thing to expect arenanet to be able to investigate. there was one person WP mentioned on one of his streams though that was blatant about it though so i hope that person is dealt with at least
Most wanted in game additions: Beastiary, readable books
There won’t ever be an investigation but if they were transparent so it wasn’t just a few people with the information then this would be much less of an issue. The issue lies in the secrecy.
So let’s say they release it to everyone at the same time. Then the people who can’t get online for whatever reason, say sleep, work, eating, school, the moment the notes drop won’t be able to act upon it. Those players still miss out from acting on the info. After all something that significantly shifts the value of something on the TP takes less than an hour, sometimes less than 15 minutes depending on the static supply.
If everyone has a month or more notice before something goes live it will at least let people know to start holding on to things. The majority of players do not play the TP game but if you let everyone know that item X will be needed for recipe Y then at least those players won’t be as far behind. Right now you have people privy to information sometimes months ahead of everyone else. They get to put up by orders on the cheap and slowly stock up and then make huge profit. That is BS. If you let everyone know at the same time then those select people will not get such a huge jump on everyone else. I’m sure most of them will still make money but it won’t be the huge amount they have been allowed to get away with since launch. Not that those players don’t already have millions of gold already anyways.
Edit to add, that if a few players don’t get to take advantage the first day so what. Nobody is talking about people being privy to information one day before everyone. We are talking about having information weeks and months ahead of everyone else. Being one day or even a week behind is nothing compared to being months behind. With a proper PBE everyone gets a long enough lead time to make things fair.
(edited by Lobo Dela Noche.5127)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51cgty/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
The post has been updated again. Arenanet, will you respond? Why does no one from Arenanet respond? I don’t understand. They respond to all the silly things that get posted, but not to something so vital to their community?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51cgty/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
The post has been updated again. Arenanet, will you respond? Why does no one from Arenanet respond? I don’t understand. They respond to all the silly things that get posted, but not to something so vital to their community?
It’s safer to respond to silly things. If they have no good answer to this issue, it is better not to answer at all.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51cgty/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
The post has been updated again. Arenanet, will you respond? Why does no one from Arenanet respond? I don’t understand.
Why should they respond? Folks who keep asking about this aren’t going to be satisfied until ANet says that they have identified every single alleged beneficiary of early intel, punished them, and figured out how to completely prevent this from happening again… and that’s never going to happen, since ANet never speaks in terms of absolutes or promises on that level.
Accordingly, their best bet is to stay silent until they have something interesting to report.
They respond to all the silly things that get posted, but not to something so vital to their community?
Maybe they don’t consider it “vital” to their community, since the impact is a lot lower than critics are claiming.
Of course, it’s ugly that it’s going on, but the vast majority of people aren’t personally affected. The prices on specific items would have dropped or spiked anyhow and even those with advance warning only had limited time to benefit before the market caught up (as soon as the TP supply or demand starts to spike, investors and speculators jump in). So a tiny fraction of people benefit a lot, but the total value of their profits is eclipsed by the amount of wealth trading hands just in the ecto market, never mind the economy as a whole.
All that said, I hope that ANet takes actions so that they can increase the risk to people trying to take advantage of insider information and aggressively punish anyone they catch who has spread the intel. I just don’t expect that to be easy or quick and neither do I expect to hear the details.
I hope they do because stuff like this distracts people from playing the game and gives people cause to distrust the TP, which is bad for the game, regardless of whether there’s any actual economic harm.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Given their strong stance on naming and shaming, as well as their preference not to let wrongdoers know how they were caught (see exploiters and gold sellers), the most they could ever say is “We’re investigating and will take appropriate action.” That level of vagueness will only fuel the demands for more info they will not provide.
I’m not at all surprised they won’t comment on the steps being taken, whatever those may be.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51cgty/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
The post has been updated again. Arenanet, will you respond? Why does no one from Arenanet respond? I don’t understand. They respond to all the silly things that get posted, but not to something so vital to their community?
As I said before, just like any other CS action against a player, they will never state the action taken against any other player unless that player (or those players) protest on reddit or this forum and then ANet would trot out the evidence.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
They wont say anything especially here. No information is ever given in these forums other then patch notes. Luckily their earning reports say more then they need to.
Silence gives…
Another week, and another request for an update (Plus, a little news): https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51cgty/stabilizing_matrices_and_insider_trading/
In addition, this week brings to light a comment that Crilt has made, in regards to this. “Crilt” is essentially Dulfy’s BFF, and probably doesn’t speak for Dulfy, but it does put things into quite a larger perspective as to why this is happening:
“There is a lot of hate about “insider trading” going on at the moment. What you guys need to realize is that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Look at it this way. You love Guild Wars 2. You want people to play with. You don’t want an empty game with no new content. This is where promotions comes in. Now, ArenaNet can promote their own game and they do through various advertizing structures. But players can also promote the game and sometimes more effectively through websites (e.g Dulfy) youtube channels and streamers. Some of us promoters are bringing in thousands of new players each year. This translates to more content and bodies for you to interact with. We don’t get paid for doing this, at least not in dollars. What we do get is opportunities to gain more in game currency than the majority of the playerbase. So we get a bit more gold than you and your friends. “But that’s not fair!” I hear you cry. “Why should some people have secret information and get an advantage in game because of it?” Because, ladies and gentlemen, we WORK HARD to make the game better for you. Some promoters are effectively doing a full time job for free. You begrudge us some in game currency? Don’t you think that’s kinda mean? In addition most promoters are very generous people who share the wealth with their friends, guilds and new players. We’re not just greedy scrooges hiding in ivory towers sneering at the community. We put what we get back into the community. I hope this post gave you a new perspective on “insider trading” and maybe the witch hunt can finally end. Crilt"
The quote comes from this week’s reddit.
To play devil’s advocate, i can see the argument he is raising here. ‘We all do so much work in bringing players in the game, so therefore we are afforded the ability to do insider trading." Ok, i can see that. But here is the thing, you spend all this time, bringing in new players, to turn around and pull the wool down on them, while you make hundreds or thousands of gold, that they are struggling to handle, so that they can upgrade gear, and experience all parts of the game? That doesn’t quite make any sense to me, and aside from the people too much in love with the game to admit, its down right bad.
If you are going to dump time into promoting the game, with the knowledge that you aren’t getting paid for it, then why expect something for doing it? Are you not doing it as a love for the hobby or franchise? If i go to McDonald’s and start washing windows, am i supposed to expect free food? Or do i just feel entitled to steal it from the patrons?
Wrongs and bads all around here, folks! I appreciate the time that the promoters, like Dulfy, put into the game, but at the same time, if its such a full time gig with no pay, then by all means, take care of yourselves first, without causing negative effects on the hobby you enjoy.
Either way, we are productively getting somewhere now, with this recent info. We know that the insider trading is coming from unpaid promoters who are privy to the game info, prior to release. Whats worse, is that since they are freely advertising Arena Net’s product, its highly unlikely we’ll see any further news and resolutions on this.
Unfortunate, but yet another example of Arena Net’s more shadier business practices.
Arena Nets are used to catch Gladiator Fish.
In addition, this week brings to light a comment that Crilt has made, in regards to this. “Crilt” is essentially Dulfy’s BFF, and probably doesn’t speak for Dulfy, but it does put things into quite a larger perspective as to why this is happening:
“There is a lot of hate about “insider trading” going on at the moment. What you guys need to realize is that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Look at it this way.
(…)
We don’t get paid for doing this, at least not in dollars. What we do get is opportunities to gain more in game currency than the majority of the playerbase. So we get a bit more gold than you and your friends. “But that’s not fair!” I hear you cry. “Why should some people have secret information and get an advantage in game because of it?” Because, ladies and gentlemen, we WORK HARD to make the game better for you. Some promoters are effectively doing a full time job for free. You begrudge us some in game currency? Don’t you think that’s kinda mean? In addition most promoters are very generous people who share the wealth with their friends, guilds and new players.
So, as Crilt writes “We” he/she confirms that at least he/she is part of the group of people who do insider trading.
This justification just sounds like “Hey, I just had to rob the bank because I work full time as an artist but no one wants to pay for my art. So I needed the money to continue to make pretty pictures that you all like.”
I do not think that insider trading is justified because it is seen by some as a way to “pay” fan-sites and youtubers.
Its cut n dry folks… you use knowledge no one else has access to, to make a buck off of said people, then you are a dishonest and terrible person. Anyone defending it is guilty by association or trying to calm their conscience to live with themselves… Sorry… it is what it is…
It should be stopped immediately, no 2 ways about it.
I could see Anet allowing the promoters the “earlier insight” perk as a way to “pay” them for their work, without actually paying them. If it was official, that is.
As long as there’s oficially no such thing happening however, then i do have a problem with it.
No, the fact that it has a low impact on general populace doesn’t fly there. First, in real life, insider trading also has a low impact on general populace. Second, it does have an impact. Maybe not necessarily an economic one, but the consequences for the game’s (and producer’s) image shouldn’t be underestimated.
As long as a behaviour like that remains in the shady zone (which also means, with no regulations spelling clearly what is allowed and what isn’t) it not only generates a lot of bad rep, but also becomes a corrupting influence on everyone involved. As well as on many people not directly involved (after all, it’s a clear message to everyone that what matters is not whether you follow the rules, but whose friend and relations you are). And that’s definitely a bad thing.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Like I have mentioned before, they will never do an investigation or ban anyone for this. As they would be attacking arenanet employees and their friends & families, plus all of those that are promoting the game in one way or another.
The only way to fix this with out attacking those mentioned above is too get the information out there way before it ever goes live on servers. They won’t do that though.
Like I have mentioned before, they will never do an investigation or ban anyone for this. As they would be attacking arenanet employees and their friends & families, plus all of those that are promoting the game in one way or another.
The only way to fix this with out attacking those mentioned above is too get the information out there way before it ever goes live on servers. They won’t do that though.
Then people will complain that those who pay close attention to the news and manage to read it first have an unfair advantage over those who don’t. Plus, those screwed over from not doing so would be in a far worse spot, since the number of people then manipulating the market would be greater.
NSPride <3
I don’t know what’s more disturbing: the fact that ArenaNet does nothing about insider trading or the fact that they openly mock those who are bothered that stopping insider trading doesn’t seem to be priority (as John Smith has done in this very topic).
I want you to reread that post, that openly accuses ArenaNet of knowingly orchestrating the outside exploitation of their own game market while chuckling into their sleeves and twisting their moustaches, and you kittening tell me that’s not worth mocking.
If there’s dishonesty going on (and I don’t doubt that there is), I wouldn’t mark the game company as happily complicit. Grudgingly? Maybe. A developer warning buddies of his own volition? More likely. Company policy? Give me a break.
(edited by Sariel V.7024)
Lets get to the real issue – there is no market you can invest in and profit heavily from that ANet won’t eventually deliberately destroy.
The system, by design and active shepherding requires agility. They want market barons moving on to new content just as much as any other segment of the playerbase.
If you sit on it, you will lose it. Simple as that.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Lets get to the real issue – there is no market you can invest in and profit heavily from that ANet won’t eventually deliberately destroy.
The system, by design and active shepherding requires agility. They want market barons moving on to new content just as much as any other segment of the playerbase.
If you sit on it, you will lose it. Simple as that.
Tell that to the people who sell Silk: http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19747
“Market agility” would require the price to dip every few months between 1 silver and 3 silver. However, we are stuck at 2s 15c to 2s 50c.
The market works like this: We have standard prices set on things as they come out, based on supply/rarity/demand/etkittenil ANet creates content that makes that item more common. Then, the price slightly decreases, and if its more common that common, it the price dumps.
However, if ANet later fixes the “more common than common” item, and makes it much more rarer, or many more of that item is needed to craft ‘fetch’ items, then the price shortly skyrockets, pre-patch, where the item change is made. I could see a few analysts taking a guess and skyrocketing their prices, but this would be long before the patch notes hit. Instead, we see that drastic increase the day or two, RIGHT before the patch, as the insiders begin flipping those items.
The resolution isn’t to ban the insiders, but simply release the patch information to the public, right as the insiders get the information with a very big and broad (THIS CHANGES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN THE FINAL RELEASE OF THE PATCH).
There is a clear and obvious reason why other, larger MMO companies do PTRs and release pre-patch notes before the patch goes live. You may try to weasel out a debate against it, but in all fairness, what we have now is creating that formidable line of haves and have nots. And according to Crilt up there, its ‘payment due’ for all the time that the insiders put into the game to make people play it.
I’ve chatted with various guildies on this, and found that to a larger extent, all of this really doesn’t affect your every day gamer, as they simply don’t care, as they don’t watch the market closely enough. On that some note, many of these players don’t ‘invest’ a rather larger amount of RL currency into the game, so why would they care if a potato costs 2s today, and 1g tomorrow? Its all the same to them. Thats why we have people coming in her to debate this. They think we are being entitled, because it really has no impact on their gameplay. So, ANet is going to keep doing what ANet does, ignoring this thread (unless its to lock it), while things proceed as they always have.
EDIT: Pardon my mispellings. This forum window is waaaay too small.
Arena Nets are used to catch Gladiator Fish.
(edited by slamfunction.7462)
No, the fact that it has a low impact on general populace doesn’t fly there. First, in real life, insider trading also has a low impact on general populace.
No, insider trading has a huge and real impact on the general populace in the real world.
It’s the exact same problem people face in the real world when trying to get something appraised – you cannot have the person you intend to sell it to also be the one telling you its value. The fact that you intend to sell it to them creates an inherent conflict of interest on the appraisal, and you cannot trust what they tell you. ‘Oh, that really valuable thing you have really isn’t all that valuable, but you came all the way out here so I’ll do you a favor and buy it from you anyway’. Everyone recognizes the used car salesman stereotype, and we all know it’s dirty and dishonest.
If you allow executives to trade on inside information, you have the exact same problem. How can you trust the CEO to give investors accurate information about the prospects of the company if they can buy or sell it from you afterward? The CEO is hired by shareholders to manage the company for them – what happens if the CEO is lying to them to make millions? What is to stop you from mismanaging it on purpose to collect on the short sales you made? How can anyone trust you at all to do a good job when you have a huge incentive not to?
Reasonable insider trading laws exist solely to eliminate that temptation – if you are responsible for the management of a publicly traded company, you can’t also trade on your intimate knowledge, and control, over the company. Doing so inherently compromises your ability to responsibly manage the company. You also can’t tell your friends to trade on your inside knowledge and control over the company – that’s you, again, mismanaging the company for non-fiduciary benefits.
That’s why it’s a big friggin deal in the real world. Bans on insider trading are a crucial part of the honest separation of ownership and control of big companies. If you like free markets, if you like capitalism and credit cards and basically all the perks of living in a western society, you need some sensible restrictions on insider trading.
The only way to fix this with out attacking those mentioned above is too get the information out there way before it ever goes live on servers. They won’t do that though.
It would be worthwhile for them to do a dev chat / reddit post on big rewards changes a week before the patch hits (and a couple days before media partners get access to the stage servers). The media pre-release is when it goes from being information leaks that can be traded upon to an information torrent that shakes the market. I think just a couple minutes during one of their media events would go a long way.
I’m torn. For Content Providers, they do a services for the game, and aren’t paid anything. I think they should get perks so they can benefit in-game. I’ve heard Dulfy get all the latest Gem Store goodies for free, so if that’s true, it’s ok because she shares news of these releases on her website.
If content Providers got early access to market changes, I would be ok with that too. When it comes to the TP, it’s really just a race to see who can buy up stuff the fastest. When the game was rolled back, there was a massive race for Lodestones. Allowing Content Providers to use advanced knowledge of item demand doesn’t change the fact that 99% of the players wouldn’t be able to profit anyway. The nature of the market is in order for one person to profit, another has to pay. If it’s going to be a first come, first serve buying spree when game notes are released, might as well let official GW2 partners get the profit. It would be a completely different story if you could exchange Gold to Gems, then Gems to Cash.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I dont care about content providers and would loose nothing if they would close down. So I am not ok with them getting market benefits.
One of my 30 accounts (Malediktus.9250).
I dont care about content providers and would loose nothing if they would close down. So I am not ok with them getting market benefits.
I only really know about a handful of them myself, so I understand that their closing wouldn’t impact me much either. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that even if no one took advantage of insider information, it’s still a race to log in and take advantage of game release notes. Anet considers that to be fair, since the notes are publicly released on the forums. It’s also inherently unfair to a lot, because not everyone is able to log in as soon as updates goes through (I’m always at work and my game is now firewalled by the government).
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Technically everyone has the same chances to read the patchnotes / log into the game. But its not Anets fault if you are at work or have a slow internet or computer.
I looked at the partner list and most of them do not produce content I would consider consuming. Similar applies to raid content testers. That content could fully be tested on a public test server.
If Anet wants to reward content producers and testers they should do so exclusively with gems or real life currency.
One of my 30 accounts (Malediktus.9250).
(edited by Malediktus.3740)
Technically everyone has the same chances to read the patchnotes / log into the game. But its not Anets fault if you are at work or have a slow internet or computer.
I looked at the partner list and most of them do not produce content I would consider consuming. Similar applies to raid content testers. That content could fully be tested on a public test server.
Yeah, I have my own dislikes about Raid testers getting advanced access. But that’s mainly because they went out and proclaimed how fast and good they were at clearing, then linked their website to shove it in our faces.
John’s in a lose/lose situation here. The market is open to everyone, with Supply and Demand driving prices. Not sure how they would release new craftable content without mat prices being affected. I assume something like " new Kralkatorrik weapons" needing Charged Lodestones, and then within seconds, all of them are 100 Gold each on the TP.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I only really know about a handful of them myself, so I understand that their closing wouldn’t impact me much either. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that even if no one took advantage of insider information, it’s still a race to log in and take advantage of game release notes. Anet considers that to be fair, since the notes are publicly released on the forums. It’s also inherently unfair to a lot, because not everyone is able to log in as soon as updates goes through (I’m always at work and my game is now firewalled by the government).
1: Quit your job.
2: Become one of these “insiders” who have access to info first.
3: ?
4: Profit!
If people are getting rich off this stuff, who needs a day job?
A-net doesn’t care about their player-base that isn’t invested in the gem scam
Mordi has been bugged since release and still is. They simply, do not care.
The only way to fix this with out attacking those mentioned above is too get the information out there way before it ever goes live on servers. They won’t do that though.
It would be worthwhile for them to do a dev chat / reddit post on big rewards changes a week before the patch hits (and a couple days before media partners get access to the stage servers). The media pre-release is when it goes from being information leaks that can be traded upon to an information torrent that shakes the market. I think just a couple minutes during one of their media events would go a long way.
All that does is shift who and when one group takes advantage of the information. Those who can’t take immediate advantage of the information are in the exact same predicament as they are with a few getting “insider information”. Either something they have been hording drops significantly in value or something they should have been hording goes up significantly in value. The changes to the market still happens and some small fortunate group still makes bank.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
All that does is shift who and when one group takes advantage of the information.
That would be all there is to it if people were economically literate, which they aren’t. There’s a perceptual issue; we have a bunch of Bernie Bros with pitchforks furious about a perceived injustice, and whether or not there’s any sense to it, it still creates a PR problem. Really minor gestures like previewing economy changes would build a lot of goodwill with those players and costs them basically nothing.
Fact of the matter is that economically the party that ‘deserves’ the gains from revealing the economic changes is…the devs themselves, which clearly shouldn’t happen because agency issues. So instead someone else gets to capture those rents, and they don’t ‘deserve’ them in any sense; no one does, so it’s just a cash grab with no good, known social solution.
So I just say screw it, make players happy, because it doesn’t matter and you can get some free goodwill out of it.