Guild Wars 2

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

Never seen this in game, only on the forums.

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are

I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them

Thanks for clearing that up – had me confused there for a sec…

ICEing.9237:

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

ICEing.9237:

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

The way to get around that is to remove one’s feet from one’s mouth.

ICEing.9237:

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

Logic.

Gotta love it when it’s there. But it’s funny as hell when it’s not.

I do agree with you. It’s a bad measurement of skill but it’s also the best we got right now. Hopefully the LFG-tool will be upgraded with better search functions in the future but right now this is the way to do it.

I however do not mind the “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” attitude. If that is how people want to play I respect them for it and I just avoid them.

AP is not a reliable way to measure skill, thats obvious. Even if i encounter someone with a three digit AP on recruitment for harder content, there is a chance that it is just a second account for a skillfull player. So i ask them if they are sure that they want to come to CoE with that lvl42 elementalist and 240AP, or just clicking randomly in LFG. Chances are that they are indeed just terribly new to the game and trying to see how the LFG works. Chances are they dont even speak a language i understand. But it could also be an alt character on an alt account.

On the other hand a 5000+ AP warrior in full zerker build can be someone who doesnt know how to play the game outside of zerging and stacking and for the life of them they couldnt adapt to the smallest change in their usual farming pattern and then call “noob” on everyone in the party.

Im usually in the “wait and see” mindset, only using AP points as a measurement of what level of skill i could expect, but never relying on that alone to decide who to party with. Language, group community (like pugging into a 4-player guild run as a fifth), connectivity issues and willingness for cooperation are much more important and can only be measured with the time you spend in the party.

ICEing.9237:

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

I did CE once with a pug and one of the guys is in top 5 AP EU leaderboards.
He died ALL OVER THE PLACE, idk if he was just new to the profession or actually played that bad.

As for the rest of your post op, the other users said it better.
I’m guessing you are around 4K so it annoys you when people ask for 7K, but at the same time you yourself don’t wanna play with lower AP than you.

Ultimately people play the way they want, and if a group wants a zerker warrior they don’t have to settle for who ever joins first.

Ap is a way of showing how much pve youve done and how much dailies youve done.It’s absolutely meaningless to me and just a way too see how much time a person has spend in this game.

Non-“All You Can Eat” completers need not apply.

zenleto.6179:

Never seen this in game, only on the forums.

You don’t look at LFG for dungeons enough then. There’s always at least one or two groups advertising with AP requirements after daily resets, typically for 4~5k, sometimes as high as 8k.

I never kick based on AP and I’m always willing to give people a fair shake, but in my (admittedly short) dungeoneering experience (I’ve been running 12~14 paths daily for the past month), I have only seen one level 80 with less than 1k AP who doesn’t go all Leeroy Jenkins on the party.

I’m still willing to give people a chance, but I’ll admit I feel a bit better when I see high APs rather than low.

a bad measurement, still the only thing people have. And chances are, someone with 21k AP (wow, btw) has more of an idea what is going on than someone with 500. But these are not absolutes – and personally, I could not care less about other people´s AP.

Way to be hypocritical, OP. GJ.

AP isn’t intended to be a measuring stick, but people use it as such. People you’re kittening about, yet you do the same thing. Using AP as a means of making a judgement about a person’s playing ability is simply judging the book by its cover, rather than by its content.

You mostly see AP requirements in AC, and rarely elsewhere.

Yes they are an awful measure of skill. They should be renamed “Living Story Points”. Arguably, those with a high amount, say 15k+, are likely worse players than those with ~5k because it just shows they’ve spent their time achievement farming, daily farming & doing LS.

To defend OP, someone with 500 AP is a player that has barely played the game at all. Unless you’re running FoTM1, I could totally see why you would want to kick them.

On the other hand, it could very well be a skilled player who got a new/second account, so I guess I don’t even know what I’m saying.

Here’s what you do: you ask them questions specific to FoTM.

“I see you only have 500AP”
“Uh yea, well its a new account I’m actually quite skilled”
“Cool cool, I’m sure, I’m sure, but just to be sure, could you maybe explain the Jade Maw fight, like what you do with the crystals?”
“Uhh, Jade Maw, yea, well you have to destroy those uh crystals, and uhm, then, uh, it will blow up, gulp, the uhm, uh, Jade Maw?”

kick from group

Flissy.4093:

You mostly see AP requirements in AC, and rarely elsewhere.

Yes they are an awful measure of skill. They should be renamed “Living Story Points”. Arguably, those with a high amount, say 15k+, are likely worse players than those with ~5k because it just shows they’ve spent their time achievement farming, daily farming & doing LS.

Uh.. Not so true. Those with 15k are likely avid WvW and PvP players, as well as experienced Living World/PvE players. Still not someone I would necessarily trust with dungeon content, but AP isn’t a measure of skill anyway, so.. yeah.

Oh definitely, I can’t count the times during world bosses I’ve seen people with high AP/Legendaries (goes hand in hand) get floored, goes the same for sPvP where I usually dumpster them. (Usually their team loses due to constant chasing/generally sucking)

Can’t say I’ve been in a dungeon group with these types, but I can only guess they’re a hot tempered lot who can’t stand others. The best way to avoid them is to just do the opposite and call for all levels and skill types, you get much nicer people that way.

AP and skill are probably fairly strongly correlated. Only Anet has the exact metrics, but experience in the game will roughly translate into skill. Of course there are always outliers in the data, but the correlation will still stand.

Someone with 500 AP just hasn’t experienced enough of the game and the AI to have a good understanding of it. Someone with 20,000 AP has seen all aspects of the game and has put in a significant time investment. You can give all the outliers you want but AP is roughly related to skill no matter how much you yell that it isn’t.

AP, like PvP rank and WXP is not a measure of skill, but “veterancy”, seniority.

That is, higher AP, PvP rank or WXP means you’ve been playing longer, but not necessarily that you’ve been playing better.

Someone who has been playing longer is more likely to have developed skills, but correlation does not imply causation, so you may get low AP players with high skill and high AP players with low skill.

Flissy.4093:

You mostly see AP requirements in AC, and rarely elsewhere.

This is true, though I’ve only recently been exposed to this really.
I “only” have 8k AP, despite playing since beta, and this apparently makes me too stupid to play AC for some nowadays.

Never been an issue in the other hundreds of times I’ve been there, but whatever.
Shrug and move on.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

AP and skill are probably fairly strongly correlated. Only Anet has the exact metrics, but experience in the game will roughly translate into skill. Of course there are always outliers in the data, but the correlation will still stand.

Someone with 500 AP just hasn’t experienced enough of the game and the AI to have a good understanding of it. Someone with 20,000 AP has seen all aspects of the game and has put in a significant time investment. You can give all the outliers you want but AP is roughly related to skill no matter how much you yell that it isn’t.

If you want to crow about outliers and statistics, then you need to make sure that your construct has a higher validity. AP is a poor measure of “skill”. It is correlated with potential measures of skill (that have not been developed?), but it is not a reliable measure, especially specific to dungeon-running. There are too many other variables attached to achievement points, presenting statistical confounds.

Also, time invested means little without challenge. The previously accepted definition of “expert” was 10 years of experience/time-investment. That notion has since been challenged by the previous statement. [yeah, yeah, citation required, but I can’t be kitten d to do all the footwork at the moment]

Edit: Oh, and some stuff on the nature of false positives/negatives and the chance of that increasing due to low power/reliability of the measure.

Is there anyone who disputes that APs are NOT a measurement of skill?

Example: I have around ~12,000 APs personally. I have never stepped foot in a dungeon or fractal. So am I skilled? Well maybe in some parts of the game but in dungeon running… Absolutely NOT.

Anybody who would let me in a non-noob dungeon run just because I have over 7000+ APs would be just plain foolish.

Fear not oh ye leet dungeon runners, I won’t try to sneak into your groups

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

Fear not oh ye leet dungeon runners, I won’t try to sneak into your groups

You’re welcomed to join mine! I’ve been meaning to do a dungeon blitz, one of these days. =P

ZudetGambeous.9573:

AP and skill are probably fairly strongly correlated. Only Anet has the exact metrics, but experience in the game will roughly translate into skill. Of course there are always outliers in the data, but the correlation will still stand.

Someone with 500 AP just hasn’t experienced enough of the game and the AI to have a good understanding of it. Someone with 20,000 AP has seen all aspects of the game and has put in a significant time investment. You can give all the outliers you want but AP is roughly related to skill no matter how much you yell that it isn’t.

Unless the bulk of AP are given for the specific task you are looking for – the indication is merely that someone has done something, perhaps joined the queensdale zerg for monthly champion slayer completion, not that he “has to” be better at the specific task you are looking for than someone else with a lower number of AP.

To end this debate Anet could award individual dungeon path “speed clearing” titles and whatever equivalent might work for fractals. A mix of fun, tongue in cheek and semi-serious titles might do and could spice up the group advertisement as well as speed up the required checks – “yo, pop title yo” – not to mention will result in more varied forum threads a la “I have all speed clearing titles but just not this ONE and they did not let me play with them – how should I get the title!!!”.

Well, something like that

Or people could chill out about losing a few minutes on a run. That would be even better I’m sure.

Ironically, I often find “fast, zerk, random amount AP” groups to be the ones performing poorly.

ICEing.9237:

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

So AP isn’t a measure of skill… but if they don’t have good AP (a meaningless statistic that was never intended to indicate skill) they obviously don’t have skill? This thread is pointless and makes no sense. Don’t complain about something you obviously subscribe to.

recently saw an lfg for ac “legendary or kick”. ………….. I hope NOT to see more of that.

ICEing.9237:

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

This shows actually that you are the new player, inexperienced and he was probaly the one who actually knew what he was doing.

If a team member dies, its the partys fault for not communicating proper tactics and using proper utilities. Its the classic Cleric Staff Guard saying, dude why are you guys dying as he does 0 damage or 1500 range bearbow asking why people die when the rest of the team is stacking, and he is ranged. The rest of the team is melee, and he is far out. The rest of the team is properly pulling, and he is scattering the pulls forcing bad tactics and causing the team to die.

Your statement speaks volumes about YOUR inexperience , not his

I love when someone says “Blah blah blah blah blah……… BUT…… I do the exact thing that I’m complaining about” GG OP.

Evans.6347:

Flissy.4093:

You mostly see AP requirements in AC, and rarely elsewhere.

This is true, though I’ve only recently been exposed to this really.
I “only” have 8k AP, despite playing since beta, and this apparently makes me too stupid to play AC for some nowadays.

Never been an issue in the other hundreds of times I’ve been there, but whatever.
Shrug and move on.

OTOH, I’ve about the same AP, been playing since release, and I’ve only done about 8 dungeon paths ever. I’m bright enough to recognize “red ring = bad”, but when and where a graveling burrow’s gonna pop up, or what to fight and what to run past? Not really. Does that mean I’m a limitation to an experienced group? Hell yeah. And I’ve got no problem with that. But it goes to support the concept that the points are meaningless for this use. (I’m not sure there IS a useful measure either — “full zerk” isn’t gonna stay a “buy this to win” situation forever either.)

JJBigs.8456:

ICEing.9237:

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

This shows actually that you are the new player, inexperienced and he was probaly the one who actually knew what he was doing.

If a team member dies, its the partys fault for not communicating proper tactics and using proper utilities. Its the classic Cleric Staff Guard saying, dude why are you guys dying as he does 0 damage or 1500 range bearbow asking why people die when the rest of the team is stacking, and he is ranged. The rest of the team is melee, and he is far out. The rest of the team is properly pulling, and he is scattering the pulls forcing bad tactics and causing the team to die.

Your statement speaks volumes about YOUR inexperience , not his

So the guy who’s only strat is to zerg & stack has “less experience”? That he hasn’t learned to adapt to other situations, change trait, or prepare gear? Zerg/stack isn’t “skill”, it’s a practiced behavior that, while useful for speed runs on profitable/skippable content, isn’t “skill”.

JJBigs.8456:

If a team member dies, its the partys fault for not communicating proper tactics and using proper utilities. Its the classic Cleric Staff Guard saying, dude why are you guys dying as he does 0 damage

Well, that’d actually be useful if the guardian presses something other than 1 once in a while. (A properly-managed cleric guardian is a healing fortress. Darned little should hit teammates and what does should be fixed in about three seconds. But it’s not something that can be done well only by buying gear; one has to actually practice. And have teammates that are willing and able to stay closed up. Not a problem for the compulsive stackers out there, but that ranger in the corner’s probably going to be fixing a lot of armor….)

ICEing.9237:

“LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!”

I take those sorts of things as a sign that that group will not be the kind of people I want to play with.

JJBigs.8456:

ICEing.9237:

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

This shows actually that you are the new player, inexperienced and he was probaly the one who actually knew what he was doing.

If a team member dies, its the partys fault for not communicating proper tactics and using proper utilities. Its the classic Cleric Staff Guard saying, dude why are you guys dying as he does 0 damage or 1500 range bearbow asking why people die when the rest of the team is stacking, and he is ranged. The rest of the team is melee, and he is far out. The rest of the team is properly pulling, and he is scattering the pulls forcing bad tactics and causing the team to die.

Your statement speaks volumes about YOUR inexperience , not his

LOL ok so judging by that logic, I’ll go full zerk warr in a group and if I die for whatever reason, falling off a cliff, getting 1 shotted, not knowing when to dodge, I’ll blame you because as you say “it’s the party’s fault”

That post more speaks volumes about how bad you are than me. One of those annoying kids who die in a dungeon run from their own stupidity and types in party chat “this team sucks” and rage quits.

Foosnark.1784:

ICEing.9237:

“LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!”

I take those sorts of things as a sign that that group will not be the kind of people I want to play with.

Saaaaaaame here.

I have zerk gear. I think I’m at 7.5k AP (ish). But that doesn’t necessarily make for
1) fun people
2) a good group

I’d rather spend an hour laughing my kitten off, and dying repeatedly, than to be barked at by some of the people in that zerker only crowd. But that’s just me…

I know people who farm AP by salvaging only. Doesn’t make them good in WvW or PvE

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have zerk gear. I think I’m at 7.5k AP (ish). But that doesn’t necessarily make for
1) fun people
2) a good group

I’d rather spend an hour laughing my kitten off, and dying repeatedly, than to be barked at by some of the people in that zerker only crowd. But that’s just me…

If you run zerk and fall over, I’ll be there to scoop you up. (Unless I’m on my thief. :P)
Rezzing is a free service for people who aren’t kittenheads.

Azure Fang.8605:

All I read is hypocritical “I hate AP bias but I kick low AP”. Way to prove the improper metric.

I know right. This thread is funny as hell.

Rauderi.8706:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have zerk gear. I think I’m at 7.5k AP (ish). But that doesn’t necessarily make for
1) fun people
2) a good group

I’d rather spend an hour laughing my kitten off, and dying repeatedly, than to be barked at by some of the people in that zerker only crowd. But that’s just me…

If you run zerk and fall over, I’ll be there to scoop you up. (Unless I’m on my thief. :P)
Rezzing is a free service for people who aren’t kittenheads.

Why thank you Although honestly, unless I’m running in a very strict speed clear, I don’t typically wear it.

ICEing.9237:

I feel like so many players measure AP as a skill base. While yes it can determine how long someone has played for, it doesn’t measure how skilled you are. And while yes there is nothing in game to measure skill at first sight, capping LFG groups at “LFG Zerk Only 7,000+ AP Ping Gear or kick!” Is annoying at the least.

Last night In fractals I had a 21.000 ap guy repeatedly die at various parts more so than everyone else around 3-5k.

However I do agree if someone’s joining my group at high level fractals and has 500 ap I’m gonna kick them. I feel it should be loosely based on something like that to avoid wasting time.

This folks is how in one post you completely contradict yourself!

Bravo!

I avoid AP groups like the plague because they’re mostly full of incompetent players with no patience. I just set an lfg for a path, don’t specify anything and just go with the flow – sometimes I do a massive carry, other times I get people who play on my level and it just turns in to a casual speed clear. Though in my experience, people with very low AP normally aren’t that good (there has been like 1 exception in my year playing) but they are both eager to learn and apologise for mistakes they make a lot more willingly than higher AP players. Once you reach around 3k AP players it just goes completely random, it honestly means nothing.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Why thank you Although honestly, unless I’m running in a very strict speed clear, I don’t typically wear it.

What, like armour in general?

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Looking for hardcore dungeoneers that transcended the need for armour.

zenleto.6179:

Never seen this in game, only on the forums.

This.

I almost never see the kind of elitism cited by the OP actually in the game.

I know it will get flamed a little by the lone ranger types out there, but the best way to avoid this garbage (and probably why I never see it) is to find a friendly guild. This game really shines when you find a group of people who like to play the game the same way you do and tackle content with them most of the time.

Blaeys.3102:

zenleto.6179:

Never seen this in game, only on the forums.

This.

I almost never see the kind of elitism cited by the OP actually in the game.

I know it will get flamed a little by the lone ranger types out there, but the best way to avoid this garbage (and probably why I never see it) is to find a friendly guild. This game really shines when you find a group of people who like to play the game the same way you do and tackle content with them most of the time.

I’ve been playing since the 3-day headstart and I’ve only seen it once ingame.

Rauderi.8706:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have zerk gear. I think I’m at 7.5k AP (ish). But that doesn’t necessarily make for
1) fun people
2) a good group

I’d rather spend an hour laughing my kitten off, and dying repeatedly, than to be barked at by some of the people in that zerker only crowd. But that’s just me…

If you run zerk and fall over, I’ll be there to scoop you up. (Unless I’m on my thief. :P)
Rezzing is a free service for people who aren’t kittenheads.

What do you have against the Charr? D=

(Yes, I know that’s actually just the swear filter acting up)

Achievement Points are so easy to get, even my 2 braincell cow can get them, funny to see LFG asking for ppl over 5k AP – as if that means anything.

I remember playing another MMO with a gearscore addon, oh the joy of pugs asking for high gearscore and dying on stupid ways as certainly the score did not make them walk out of nasty stuff automaticly

What it comes down to is that AP shouldn’t be used as a measure to kick someone out a group under any circumstances!!