Guild Wars 2

This is something that I’ve had struck in my throat for a while now and just haven’t managed to swallow at all.

There’s a trend in the LFG system that involves asking for members with a minimum Achievement Points (AP) score for several dungeons, not even to get into the “Zerk Warr only” LFG ads…
So it’s got me thinking, AP only indicates how much you’ve played the overall game and beyond I believe 20 AP that you get for clearing every path in a dungeon, a player’s dungeon experience is in no way related to the amount of AP he/she has. In fact, I know players who’ve been absent from GW2 for quite a while with over 10k AP and they struggle to get their rhythm back and make the sort of mistakes you’d expect from somebody who’s attempting said dungeon for the first time.
Therefore, what does AP have to do with dungeon experience and player ability?

Keep in mind this is no rant, I just hate seeing groups disband for such idiotic reasons on the rare occasions I do use the LFG tool.

It’s indicates time spent playing the game. No one has 10k+ AP without having spent a lot of time in GW2. As a rule of thumb, someone who has spent more time playing tends to be better than someone who has spent less time playing. It doesn’t exactly have an overwhelming degree of accuracy, but it’s the best indicator available in game.

No, it’s not a real measurement, but it is more true than not in most cases because the more a usual player plays the more he naturally learns and the sharper his reflexes become.

So with the lack of any other methods of determining player’s experience, some players prefer to be on the safe side and filter out players by AP even though they clearly understand that in the process they may lose talented players with low AP or get lame players with high AP.

I for once understand people asking for certain amount of AP in LFG tool. There is much better chance to meet player with knowledge of the dungeon if he has 2-3k+ achievements, while 1k and less is most likely someone who has no idea what to do.

What makes me mad is that when you ask for experienced people and someone with 500 AP joins…

not at all, but the only indicator there is when it comes to strangers.

My personal experience from yesterday, COE path 3. Group consisted of my thief (9k AP), a warrior (10k AP), two other heavies and a caster (all 2k-3k AP). I went down twice all run and never died. The experienced warrior didn’t go down at all. The others all died on every alpha fight and died every time we jumped down to the destroyer boss in the lava. The run wasn’t actually that long as we never wiped.

That sort of thing doesn’t happen in every run but it does happen often enough for experienced players to be wary. I’m certainly a better player now than I was when I had 3k AP. Returning players can be unaware of modern skips and tactics but that isn’t going to cause repeated wipes. These players often know how to improvise and can fight a boss even without the current PUG tactic.

It indicates dedication the game, dedicated players tend to be experienced and skilled. It is elitist, but not unreasoned.

meh, I’ve seen people with 1k ap know they’re stuff in a dungeon…. and there’s people who farmed their ap through monthlies/dailies. Its a terrible indicator of “experience”.

I ignore and lfg ads asking for zerk only or over “x” amount of ap.

tend to stick to groupls that say lv80. Still skip and do fast clears but with none of the elitists and their attitude.

I have over 6k ap now, only dungeons i did was CoF and AC… on the other hand, my friend, doesn’t care about ap at all and he can do all dungeons with eyes closed.

Stooperdale.3560:

My personal experience from yesterday, COE path 3. Group consisted of my thief (9k AP), a warrior (10k AP), two other heavies and a caster (all 2k-3k AP). I went down twice all run and never died. The experienced warrior didn’t go down at all. The others all died on every alpha fight and died every time we jumped down to the destroyer boss in the lava. The run wasn’t actually that long as we never wiped.

That sort of thing doesn’t happen in every run but it does happen often enough for experienced players to be wary.

…i have seen enough legendary-wielding 10k+ AP players kissing the floor every two minutes to realize, that some players are just bad, and no amount of AP is going to change that.

Having higher AP doesn’t mean a player is going to play better, just like having higher gear score doesn’t mean the run will be smoother.

But having higher AP generally means a player is likely to be better at the game because they’ve played for longer. Since there’s no better measurement to skill check a player, that’s the one people use.

Its an indication of time spent on the game and with time spent comes experience. While its true you can find decent players with 1-2k AP it is much more likely that players with higher scores know what they’re doing and aren’t going to waste your time.

Its annoying for decent players when they are undermined by clueless people. Its the only way you can really separate the men from the boys as it were.

Obviously its not a foolproof system of selection. But its more LIKELY, not certain, the higher AP means smoother runs.

No real dungeon experts will use AP to screen (they’ll ask for zerker ping if anything).

People who believe high AP is worth something (5k++ only!!!) are, in my experience, often worse than your average pug. Be happy that they mark their parties like this, so you can avoid them.

All it is a measurement of time in GW1 and GW2 is all. Just because you grind things out, does not mean you play well. Sorry, AP means nothing.

I think it’s great. You know the mindset of the group right from the get-go and you can avoid it if that is not what you are looking for. No need to judge.

Astralporing.1957:

…i have seen enough legendary-wielding 10k+ AP players kissing the floor every two minutes to realize, that some players are just bad, and no amount of AP is going to change that.

…or they may be full-DPS glass canons who’re used to killing bosses in seconds with 25 stacks of might, perma fury, timewarps, blinds/aegis/reflects but go down if a PUG is not as coordinated as their usual guildies/friends party with Teamspeak/Skype.

Are they bad as players? No, they’re probably better players than many “casuals” because they’re playing with instincts that they’ve been sharpening for thousands of hours. Are they bad in suboptimal PUGs? You may say so, or you may say that the PUG is not good enough for them – it all depends on your mindset.

AP means absolutely nothing. Some 3k AP players are better than 22k AP players, and the other way around. I have21k+ at the moment so I know what I’m talking about.. I think.

In fact, most of 6-10k AP players have proven to be better than high achievers. High AP players are mostly about grind and repeating dailies and spending all time on finding the most efficient and the easiest way to get all the achievements as fast as possible. However, those players with lower AP will just do content because they actually enjoy it, and they will be quite good at the parts of the game they enjoy the most.

Achivement points are a measure of play time and overall mixed experience. What this means is not that the player has done any dungeons or anything, but that they can learn. Its signifies a pretty good chance that the player has been playing the game long enough to know how to adapt to a situation with a little advice.

Chances are that if a player has a high amount of AP, and is not completely dumb, one or two runs through a dungeon is all that they need to learn it.

On top of this, when mistakes occur (even pro players make mistakes constantly, its a part of the inefficient Human nature), someone with alot of experience will better understand how to salvage the situation into something useful.

For example, yesterday at Balthazar temple event, we were killing the priest, and the commander there kept saying DPS the priest! because of the timer, but he didn’t realize that he had no DPS because there were 20 players dead around him from the Champion Risen Abomination that everyone was ignoring. If it wasn’t for smart players resurrecting each other, pulling it away and salvaging the situation, they would not have killed the priest with the five players they had left in enough time.

As I have said before, skill isn’t just learning and refining repetitive behaviors, its also benig able to adapt to a changing situation.

As a joke my group of friends and I often advertise our parties as 25K AP +.

It’s true someone with 10K aps can be awful, and someone with 1K can be an amazing player (I’ve seen both), but that doesn’t mean that the AP metric has no value. As others have said it does indicate time spent in game since you can’t get 10K aps overnight. I personally don’t require a certain AP number, but I would be lying if when someone joins my party I don’t look and make assumptions based on the numbers I see. Whether you like it or not, the probability stands that the higher AP = more experienced. It is a faulty measure, but it isn’t completely without merit.

It might be the worst way to judge player skill out there. You can easily get 7k AP and have no idea how to play your class. You can get that much just by spamming 1 in open world and LS events.

Its a really bad filter and its been discussed to death. I know players with 13k+ AP that have never set foot in a dungeon. I also know new players with less than 2k AP who are already running meta builds, learning fast and doing well.

People are free to filter however they like. Its a silly requirement but theres nothing wrong with it. People who dont read requirements are the real problem with the lfg system at the moment.

Definitely do no agree that AP relates to player ability, especially in dungeons. I have almost 7k AP and I rarely do dungeons. While I could probably hold my own because I know the class I play, my AP does not in any way tell anyone about how good of a player I am in relation to running a dungeon. Period. However, if someone makes a LFG request with those requirements, they’re free to do so, and you’re free not to join even if you meet the requirement.

AP is not a real measurement of player ability but the best one available.

I think it’s a great filter! It instantly notifies me that people who advertise party with AP requirements are NOT worth grouping with (same as “No profession X, Y and Z” or “Zerker only”).

If they didn’t inform the world in their LFG advert that they are kittenbags I might unknowingly join their party and then be frustrated and loose faith in humanity – but because they do post such adverts, I’m a happier person overall eliminating toxic players from my environment.

EDIT- lol kittenbags. Meow. This is gonna be my new catchphrase!

AP doesn’t mean anything. I could give examples but I’m not going to bother do because it’s such a stupid thing to think past 1k AP (because those first 1k are incredibly easy to get).

In general, AP is not an indicator of ability, however, in order to get “over 9000” AP, one has to have at least a cursory knowledge of the mechanics of some parts of the game.

Those with less than about 2500 usually have mostly general PvE experience from hearts, DE’s and leveling, and not a lot of dungeon specific experience. This is not to say that they are not able to run a dungeon, as there are those who are good, even though they may not have been playing for very long.

So, while not an indicator of skill, it is an indicator of having been in the game for a while and knowing the basics.

The best thing to do in any case, is to simply ask. If (almost) all of my AP comes from Dungeons, I am going to be more able to run one with less than 5K as someone whose AP is over 9K but comes from general PvE. (figuratively speaking)

Ashabhi.1365:

In general, AP is not an indicator of ability, however, in order to get “over 9000” AP, one has to have at least a cursory knowledge of the mechanics of some parts of the game.

Those with less than about 2500 usually have mostly general PvE experience from hearts, DE’s and leveling, and not a lot of dungeon specific experience. This is not to say that they are not able to run a dungeon, as there are those who are good, even though they may not have been playing for very long.

So, while not an indicator of skill, it is an indicator of having been in the game for a while and knowing the basics.

I know quite a lot of people who have 2 or more accounts and play on whichever. Or players who gave their account to a sibling/friend.

Olvendred.3027:

It’s indicates time spent playing the game. No one has 10k+ AP without having spent a lot of time in GW2. As a rule of thumb, someone who has spent more time playing tends to be better than someone who has spent less time playing. It doesn’t exactly have an overwhelming degree of accuracy, but it’s the best indicator available in game.

This is basically how I would sum up exactly how AP is treated and rightfully so.
The biggest concern a dungeon group would have is to quickly and painlessly complete a dungeon run without having the need to carry a new player.
Without the ability to inspect armor/wep of another player, AP taken as your benchmark to make a somewhat educated guess.

I doubt that you can change how other players will perceive AP unless other information can also be viewed in future. Also I very much doubt Anet would ever add more information on players, for example: How many dungeon runs have the said player done? Average completion time?
This would only lead to more elitism

No it isn’t; except maybe for the first few hundred (altough you could have 500 points without even having played the game). I’ve got quite a few AP but no experience with most dungeons, those paths I have done I’ll only remember faintly and if I’d try to play a dungeon with any class other then Necromancer (by far my most played character) or Warrior (overpowered (and as far as I’ve played it easy to play) class) you might well be better off with someone with a tenth of my AP who has played the dungeon path a few times before (not that I’d be truly bad but the other player may well be better).

Lishtenbird.2814:

…or they may be full-DPS glass canons who’re used to killing bosses in seconds with 25 stacks of might, perma fury, timewarps, blinds/aegis/reflects but go down if a PUG is not as coordinated as their usual guildies/friends party with Teamspeak/Skype.

Are they bad as players? No, they’re probably better players than many “casuals” because they’re playing with instincts that they’ve been sharpening for thousands of hours. Are they bad in suboptimal PUGs? You may say so, or you may say that the PUG is not good enough for them – it all depends on your mindset.

The hypothetical players you describe fail to take the different party composition and the far lower degree of organisation into account (two rather obvious factors when changing from guild party to PUG) so I would in fact say they are bad players.

Nah, because dungeons aren’t needed to get a decently high AP.

Even if it was required, there is always the chance they could have been carried.

Coming from someone that hardly does any dungeons at all, they would be extremely disappointed if my AP were used as the reason to recruit me.

I have 10+K AP and [b]RARELY do dungeons, does that make me L337{:-þ

Maybe.

A player with 10k AP would most likely be better than they were when they had 2k AP; they may have learned to do whatever they were doing better.

It doesn’t make them better than anyone else with 2k AP though, especially given the poor balance of achievement points, especially regarding wvw.

It could have been a useful metric, but currently is extremely misleading and you shouldn’t set any arbitrary requirements like that.

So, at the moment there is a correlation, but a weak one.

And obviously if someone has never run any dungeons, then all the AP in the world from other content does not matter.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Astralporing.1957:

…i have seen enough legendary-wielding 10k+ AP players kissing the floor every two minutes to realize, that some players are just bad, and no amount of AP is going to change that.

…or they may be full-DPS glass canons who’re used to killing bosses in seconds with 25 stacks of might, perma fury, timewarps, blinds/aegis/reflects but go down if a PUG is not as coordinated as their usual guildies/friends party with Teamspeak/Skype.

Are they bad as players? No, they’re probably better players than many “casuals” because they’re playing with instincts that they’ve been sharpening for thousands of hours. Are they bad in suboptimal PUGs? You may say so, or you may say that the PUG is not good enough for them – it all depends on your mindset.

I sense defensiveness.

All these examples of people with xxxx AP and not knowing dungeons aren’t too relevant.

After all, someone who has run most dungeons and only has a few hundred AP would not be properly geared or doesn’t know how to play their class to the best of their ability.

While you have people who don’t know dungeon boss fights but know the most appropriate weapons and traits to use.

And as I said above, AP isn’t a good measure but it’s the best we have to deal with at the moment, so it’s what I use.

Either way, I don’t have any problems picking someone with 5000AP over a guy with 10000AP

RedStar.4218:

Ashabhi.1365:

In general, AP is not an indicator of ability, however, in order to get “over 9000” AP, one has to have at least a cursory knowledge of the mechanics of some parts of the game.

Those with less than about 2500 usually have mostly general PvE experience from hearts, DE’s and leveling, and not a lot of dungeon specific experience. This is not to say that they are not able to run a dungeon, as there are those who are good, even though they may not have been playing for very long.

So, while not an indicator of skill, it is an indicator of having been in the game for a while and knowing the basics.

I know quite a lot of people who have 2 or more accounts and play on whichever. Or players who gave their account to a sibling/friend.

Good point, but some perspective may be in order.

If GW2 has 500,000 players,
and if you know 50 people who have two or more accounts, etc,
then you are describing .o1% of of the player base. Not a particularly relevant number.

Then there is the question of what percentage of that .01% actually participate in dungeon runs through the LFG system to a significant degree ? Half ?

To content, I think ‘zerk/nonzerk’ is more important than an AP count.

In the gear case the playstyles do NOT mix, even if both work on their own.

For AP, how bad a group are people getting that they think they need this? For most of the dungeons, just about any group is fine, I can count the number of ‘bad’ (not even disastrous) runs on 2 hands. The number of failed runs is tiny and are all in the first rush of the game (back year and a half ago now).

I see a high AP req and I always think “They’re going to spend more time trying to fill their group than they would if they were just running with less experienced people.”

Windsagio.1340:

I sense defensiveness.

I run with PUGs 99% of time and use a PVT/zerk mix with traveler’s runes (with a zerk-ruby set in inventory if I see I’m in a DPS group). But it doesn’t stop me from admiring youtube people who manage to bring down bosses in seconds with organised play (as long as they don’t lie dead in my PUGs, yes).

Veckna.9621:

This is something that I’ve had struck in my throat for a while now and just haven’t managed to swallow at all.

There’s a trend in the LFG system that involves asking for members with a minimum Achievement Points (AP) score for several dungeons, not even to get into the “Zerk Warr only” LFG ads…
So it’s got me thinking, AP only indicates how much you’ve played the overall game and beyond I believe 20 AP that you get for clearing every path in a dungeon, a player’s dungeon experience is in no way related to the amount of AP he/she has. In fact, I know players who’ve been absent from GW2 for quite a while with over 10k AP and they struggle to get their rhythm back and make the sort of mistakes you’d expect from somebody who’s attempting said dungeon for the first time.
Therefore, what does AP have to do with dungeon experience and player ability?

Keep in mind this is no rant, I just hate seeing groups disband for such idiotic reasons on the rare occasions I do use the LFG tool.

Answer: Not that much.
You can only guess that people with high AP are less likely to screw up overall. I guess it’s just the most common way of predicting this. I am one exception to this likelyness myself ( 3man’d almost every path before I even had 1800 AP), but you can’t blame people for trying to control with whome the play -complaining won’t change their behaviour anyway.

The only way to improve their fairness is, infact, give them more accurace messurement tools but way too many people are afraid of that (especially casuals) so that won’t happen and nothing will ever change it.

Barring people from groups because of AP is stupid, but then again most LFG groups I end up in are full of the super elitists who die every ten seconds. If people really feel they need players with absurdly high AP, it’s not my problem — I avoid those groups (all of the ones like that I go into are filled with raging, slur tossing people that end up disbanding halfway through because they didn’t get their way on something or other). If I must LFG I’ll pick the more relaxed, the more “we don’t care what you bring we’re prepared to bash our heads against this until the end” groups, as they’re always more pleasant, they tend to always finish the content while being chatty, and I end up with some friends out of it.

Then again, I don’t care about finishing a dungeon in record farm time.

Ap means nothing at all regarding player skill.

One thing I can tell is that you SHOULD NOT join the groups that have AP requirement because I garantee you that these people fail alot.

This all go’s back to GW1, showing stones to get on a UW run, they dont mean kitten but some think they do, so it is what it is just have to deal withit.

How about reverse the question a bit.

If you see a person with 1000 or 2000 AP, do you not think there is a “relatively high percentage chance” that the person is inexperience in the dungeon path or even never ran the dungeon path before?

I have 6K+ AP and the only dungeon I’d ever ran more than 3 times was CoF P1.

I recently started doing dungeons again and I ignore most of the “ZERK ONLY” or “X+ AP only” ads. I’ve only had to ditch one party so far, this is including fractal PuG groups.

Most dungeons in this game are easy enough if you can comprehend directions and follow what everyone else is doing. It amazes me how some people can’t manage it.

There’s really no 100% accurate way to measure someone’s skill in a dungeon. You could go off of the dungeon armor they have on but they might have been carried and/or farm a different path (and some builds may not be compatible with the stats for that dungeon). Legendaries just indicate a lot of gold (or a parent’s credit card) and it’s unrealistic to say “LFG all legendaries and ascended armor”. AP indicates they’ve spent some time in the game, but doesn’t really mean much. Everyone tends to accumulate AP though, so it can target a broader audience.

Veckna.9621:

This is something that I’ve had struck in my throat for a while now and just haven’t managed to swallow at all.

There’s a trend in the LFG system that involves asking for members with a minimum Achievement Points (AP) score for several dungeons, not even to get into the “Zerk Warr only” LFG ads…
So it’s got me thinking, AP only indicates how much you’ve played the overall game and beyond I believe 20 AP that you get for clearing every path in a dungeon, a player’s dungeon experience is in no way related to the amount of AP he/she has. In fact, I know players who’ve been absent from GW2 for quite a while with over 10k AP and they struggle to get their rhythm back and make the sort of mistakes you’d expect from somebody who’s attempting said dungeon for the first time.
Therefore, what does AP have to do with dungeon experience and player ability?

Keep in mind this is no rant, I just hate seeing groups disband for such idiotic reasons on the rare occasions I do use the LFG tool.

So it’s gone from gearscore, to class discrimination, to this now. gotit. And people wonder why some of us were hoping when we bought this game that we’d never have to deal with the dungeoneer community again.

It’s a slightly better measure than nothing, which is what you’d have without looking at APs.

When I need to complete a dungeon with a moderate amount of time, I rely on the AP requirement, it’s not elitist at all.

Asking for zerker is elitis, because it goes against the “play the way you want” philosophy, even if a zerker party of good players is clearly the meta and the most efficent one in most cases, brace yourself: you don’t need it.
I.e. Khol, you can kill him with any kind of party composition, yeah clearly you can kill him fast with giving a fgs to a warrior and why not getting some help by a guardian, that’s the easy way, but in the end all you need from your members is that they know when to dodge and how to manage their vigor.

AP can’t clearly indicate if a player has or not the skills you’re looking from him, BUT at least tell you that that player is in this game for some time.

AP are just a Time Indicator.
With time invested in the game increases the chance that a players learned a bit of his profession, that’s all.

tigirius.9014:

Veckna.9621:

This is something that I’ve had struck in my throat for a while now and just haven’t managed to swallow at all.

There’s a trend in the LFG system that involves asking for members with a minimum Achievement Points (AP) score for several dungeons, not even to get into the “Zerk Warr only” LFG ads…
So it’s got me thinking, AP only indicates how much you’ve played the overall game and beyond I believe 20 AP that you get for clearing every path in a dungeon, a player’s dungeon experience is in no way related to the amount of AP he/she has. In fact, I know players who’ve been absent from GW2 for quite a while with over 10k AP and they struggle to get their rhythm back and make the sort of mistakes you’d expect from somebody who’s attempting said dungeon for the first time.
Therefore, what does AP have to do with dungeon experience and player ability?

Keep in mind this is no rant, I just hate seeing groups disband for such idiotic reasons on the rare occasions I do use the LFG tool.

So it’s gone from gearscore, to class discrimination, to this now. gotit. And people wonder why some of us were hoping when we bought this game that we’d never have to deal with the dungeoneer community again.

you’re playing the wrong type of game if you don’t want to deal with other people who want others that are similar to their playstyle.

There will always be speed runners, elitists, casuals and terrible players.

If you don’t like that, then I suggest playing an RPG or a single player game.

Otherwise, you gotta deal with it.

Windsagio.1340:

To content, I think ‘zerk/nonzerk’ is more important than an AP count.

In the gear case the playstyles do NOT mix, even if both work on their own.

For AP, how bad a group are people getting that they think they need this? For most of the dungeons, just about any group is fine, I can count the number of ‘bad’ (not even disastrous) runs on 2 hands. The number of failed runs is tiny and are all in the first rush of the game (back year and a half ago now).

I see a high AP req and I always think “They’re going to spend more time trying to fill their group than they would if they were just running with less experienced people.”

Very bad. Believe me. Me and my friend had enough groups, where its just me and him standing, slowly killing mobs, while everyone else is dead. Whole run… So yeah.

Ill better go gather some ori/wood w8-ing for smooth run, than do a hour long run (only 1 path) with a newbie group.