Guild Wars 2

Let me get this straight in case I missed some points.

1. Bleeds are limited to 25 stacks (with a single Condition focused player easily being able to maintain 15-20 stacks)

2. Bleeds don’t deal damage to objects or Siege weapons.

3. Conditions can be cleansed by numerous abilities and traits.

4. Conditions aren’t affected by %-based damage increases or Vulnerability .

5. Condition Damage builds generally deal significantly less damage than Power builds.

6. Very limited choice of weapons and abilities.

Someone tell me why Condition Damage is supposed to be a viable alternative?

how do you think a catapult can bleed?

The same way you bleed an ice elemental.^

The damage from conditions, imo is fine. The problem arises when you have 2+ on a team, also the duration stacking conditions.

It caps out the max damage you can do whereas damage builds don’t suffer from this.

6. Condition damage is not affected by the defensive stat Toughness

THAT is the idea by which some claim that condition damage is equal to power. But, it’s completely untrue. It makes your portion of your teams damage output dependent on your opponents build rather than your own, so you are only really useful against certain enemies in PvE and certain builds in PvP.

It also doesn’t help that the classes that can build toughness best, are those with the most condition removal abilities, and that blocks prevent new stacks of conditions.

Its not, in its current form, unless you’re solo 24/7 its pretty useless..

its not a viable alternative at all..hardly anybody makes conditions builds for this reason, slap a Earth sigil on my ranger and i can get 6-10 stacks on a power build, why would i need a condition build..

Are you playing a thief? You’re not limited to bleeds. As far as I remember most condition types can stack different conditions at the same time
Take ele for example – swap to fire, stack fire, swap to earth, stack a lot of bleeds, stack vulnerability, swap to water, put the freeze thing
Necro – there’s a sigil to do insta different condition damage, you can stack bleeds and poison, there’s a sigil to direct enemies conditions back at them when offensive, take conditions off your allies on you when passive. In a dungeon run if a boss does AoE, jump into a circle, use the sigil. Run into a group of enemies in WvW, have conditions stacked, choose a victim, direct it there, they die, you run away while in death shroud.
Guardians – you can have an enemy on permanent fire most of the time (nerfed in Spvp though). Once fire duration is about to run out, use another ability with fire on it, while still doing normal damage.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking-Boons/first

Nurvus.2891:

Please keep it constructive.

Currently, the Conditions that stack intensity have a cap (25), wich makes large scale battles penalize players that like condition builds.

A single player that focuses on 1 type of condition can easily get up to 10-15 stacks of a single condition by himself on an enemy. That’s about half the limit (25).

Increasing the cap to 50 or 100 just strains the server without really fixing the problem.

So I think the Condition mechanics should be changed for Conditions that stack Intensity.

Current Mechanics

1. Each stack of boon/condition is monitored individually, both in power and duration.
   Example:
   - You apply a 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It does 4 damage per second
   - 3 seconds later (3×4=12 damage done), 8 damage and 2 seconds remain.
   - At this point you apply another 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - Since each stack’s damage and duration are tracked individually, this is the damage you see per second:
   Time = Damage
   Second 1 = 4 –
   Second 2 = 4 –
   Second 3 = 4 –
   Second 4 = 4 4
   Second 5 = 4 4
   Second 6 = – 4
   Second 7 = – 4
   Second 8 = – 4
   Both stacks deal damage simultaneously during the 4th and 5th seconds, at wich point the first stack falls, and leaves the second stack dealing damage on the 6th, 7th and 8th seconds.
2. There is a maximum number of stacks, wich is understandable and probably has something to do with server performance.
3. A player can own more than one stack, wich penalizes other players.
   This includes poisons and burning.
   Several players applying poison or burning are penalizing each other because the effect doesn’t stack, only increases duration, and it simply gets overriden by the player with the best condition damage.
4. Effects that Cure 1 Condition remove all stacks of 1 condition.

Suggested Mechanics

1. Each stack is still monitored individually
2. There is still a maximum number of stacks (can stay 25).
3. Each player owns 1 stack, wich makes it fair for everyone when there happen to be multiple condition builds
   This includes Burning and Poison, making several players applying Burning and Poison no longer penalize each other.
   However, each player’s stack of Burning and Poison only gets extended in duration, and it can only be extended by its owner.
   The poison’s 33% Heal Reduction does not stack.
4. Effects that Cure 1 Condition would remove X stacks of 1 condition.
5. When applying a new Bleed, Confusion or Regeneration effect, it simply adds the new effect’s damage/healing to the old effect’s remaining damage/healing, and the new duration is a percentage of the new effect’s duration plus a percentage of the old effect’s remaining duration.
   These percentages are based on the weight of each effect’s damage comparing to the combined total.
   If the old effect’s remaining damage is 40% of the combined damage, then 40% of the old effect’s remaining duration is added to 60% of the new effect’s duration.
   The goal is making it so that the resulting damage and duration after the effect is updated has the adequate change in damage per second.
   Example:
   - You apply a 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It does 4 damage per second
   - 3 seconds later (3×4=12 damage done), 8 damage and 2 seconds remain.
   - At this point you apply another 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It will add the remaining 8 damage to the new 20 = 28.
   - Since 8 is 35% of 28 and 20 is 65% of 28, it will add 35% of 2 seconds to 65% of 5 seconds = 3.95 seconds.
   If it simply added the durations, you’d lose Damage per Second everytime you applied a new effect.
   If it simply used the the new duration, you’d gain Damage per Second by applying a shorter duration effect.
   Neither of these would be fair.

the problem I have is with my condition build for my thief I can only seem to get up to 9 or occasionally 10 stacks of bleeds before i have to wait for initiativeand by the time I have enough initiative 3 stacks are lost …

I like the condition build because they can still die if they run away, but I dislike it because of the low weapon damage and you are relying on condition to make up for it.

I use an elementalist as well. I have build my character based on power/condition/vitality. Using superior runes of undead and trinkets (still working on maxing those) based on defense I can get really high condition damage because 5% of toughness gets converted to condition as well. ATM I have 1100 Power and 915 Condition. I generally use burn and cripple (i.e. fire and earth) and can get good stacks.

I’m still playing around with this build, however, already seeing condition damage being beneficial to my character.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

I use an elementalist as well. I have build my character based on power/condition/vitality. Using superior runes of undead and trinkets (still working on maxing those) based on defense I can get really high condition damage because 5% of toughness gets converted to condition as well. ATM I have 1100 Power and 915 Condition. I generally use burn and cripple (i.e. fire and earth) and can get good stacks.

I’m still playing around with this build, however, already seeing condition damage being beneficial to my character.

There’s no doubt condition damage is useful, but the more players you are with, the less viable it becomes. Running around Orr and doing those big events chains with lots of people is one time you might notice it. Unless you have a dedicated build and do primo damage, chances are a lot of the stacks you are trying to apply to a boss are getting thrown out before they can even register, supplanted by more powerful stacks.

In a small group or by yourself, the fact that you can hit the stack cap all on your own is worthwhile. When you have to share that cap with 25 other sources, your contribution will be a lot smaller, despite putting the same amount of effort into it. And unfortunately, that can translate into a smaller reward if the system deemed your contribution to be less than Gold worthy.

This is why I’ve dumped condition builds for the time being and concentrate now on PRE/POW builds instead. Raw damage never hits a stacking limit.

Condition damage + Epidemic Necro = fun vs groups of trash mobs.

But it does get lackluster against most bosses.

Why people is so upset with CD?
I mean, it’s a kitten secondary stat. It’s not suppose to do the killing for you, just add some pressure to your target. Trying to kill with CD only is like trying to survive with healing power only (ignoring vitality and toughness).
Yes, it can be removed but you need to waste a trait, skill or an utility skill and that mean less dmg, defense or something else. And even if conditions are easily removed, you can always put more.

daimasei.4091:

I mean, it’s a kitten secondary stat. It’s not suppose to do the killing for you

Yes tell that to the weapons that do absolutely kitten all aside from the conditions they apply. Necro Scepter and Staff, Engy Pistols, pretty much everything in Earth Attunement and many things in Fire, Ranger’s Shortbow and Torch, Guardian’s Torch, Mesmer’s Staff, Warrior’s Swords, Thief’s Pistol…

daimasei.4091:

Why people is so upset with CD?
I mean, it’s a kitten secondary stat. It’s not suppose to do the killing for you, just add some pressure to your target. Trying to kill with CD only is like trying to survive with healing power only (ignoring vitality and toughness).
Yes, it can be removed but you need to waste a trait, skill or an utility skill and that mean less dmg, defense or something else. And even if conditions are easily removed, you can always put more.

In PvE, it actually does the killing for me on my necro, seeing as the attack power (and frequency) on my ranged weapons is….subpar. Even with an axe power build (I’m not fond of the melee range dagger requires) would be slower to kill mobs than a condition build. It’s really frustrating on objects though…
Apart from that, I just like putting dots on my enemies and watch them die

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Yes tell that to the weapons that do absolutely kitten all aside from the conditions they apply. Necro Scepter and Staff, Engy Pistols, pretty much everything in Earth Attunement and many things in Fire, Ranger’s Shortbow and Torch, Guardian’s Torch, Mesmer’s Staff, Warrior’s Swords, Thief’s Pistol…

Ermm… Have you ever tried the necro staff with Power/Precision? And I don’t mean with cannon glass build, just balanced P/P/V/T build.
And the scepter is plain lame but then again; CD is for suppot so if anyone go for the world with a scepter only (or any other wep with CD only) and didn’t carry a dagger (or any other weapon), then is not a problem with the CD, it’s a problem with that person.

By the way, I only play necro so I can’t comment on the other classes but I highly doubt they only have CD weapons and even if they did, the problem would be with the weapon itself.

Frotee.2634:

In PvE, it actually does the killing for me on my necro, seeing as the attack power (and frequency) on my ranged weapons is….subpar. Even with an axe power build (I’m not fond of the melee range dagger requires) would be slower to kill mobs than a condition build. It’s really frustrating on objects though…
Apart from that, I just like putting dots on my enemies and watch them die

I tried CD build once but had the same frustration with objects (and with so many events which require destroy objects it becomes more frustrating).
And yes, you CAN kill with CD only (I personally found more effective against groups than with single mobs) but then I don’t understand why people is complaining.
And if Power/Precision builds are more effective is simple because that’s the way it is meant to be, not because CD need a buff or is UP.

the dolls seemed to do fine with CD- just saying :p

daimasei.4091:

Why people is so upset with CD?
I mean, it’s a kitten secondary stat. It’s not suppose to do the killing for you, just add some pressure to your target. Trying to kill with CD only is like trying to survive with healing power only (ignoring vitality and toughness).
Yes, it can be removed but you need to waste a trait, skill or an utility skill and that mean less dmg, defense or something else. And even if conditions are easily removed, you can always put more.

You do know that condition damage is pretty much all the Necro profession has to work with, don’t you? Oh let me add some pressure to the target with my slow-moving, slow attack speed, sounds-like-a-dog-throwing-up staff #1 attack. Go go minor damage that’s a less than half as intense as any (even non-buffed) bleed I can place on a target.

PolarApe.9351:

You do know that condition damage is pretty much all the Necro profession has to work with, don’t you? Oh let me add some pressure to the target with my slow-moving, slow attack speed, sounds-like-a-dog-throwing-up staff #1 attack. Go go minor damage that’s a less than half as intense as any (even non-buffed) bleed I can place on a target.

But, but… C’mon, I already explain this. Oh well, here I go again.

Staff is the simple the best weapon for necromancer but no for the bleed or the poison. Just put points in Power/Precision, gather a lot of mobs around you and cast all the staff skills (2,3,4,5,1) and if they survive then just wait until the bleed/poison suck the little health they should have and, if one try to run, just kill it with your slow-moving, slow attack speed, sounds-like-a-dog-throwing-up staff #1 attack (which is highly underrated IMO). And if you really hate that skill just swap weapon and finish them with your other 5 skills or use DS and use the skill 4 for AoE attack or 1 for a single target (again, skills highly benefited from power/precision with no benefit from CD).

And before someone ask if I know anything about the necro, I had re-roll more than 50 times (I play in hardcore-survivor mode: If I die I re-roll again, no matter how level I’m or how much I had spent in that character) and I tried everything (all weapons, all utility skills, almost all the combination of attributes) and believe me, after the 5th re-roll, you start to see what’s wrong with trying to do what is not to be done.

And finally, I’m a PvE player so anything I say don’t apply to WvW/PvP and no, I’m not trying to teach anyone how to play (there are plenty of better players than me), this is just my opinion.

daimasei.4091:

Why people is so upset with CD?
I mean, it’s a kitten secondary stat. It’s not suppose to do the killing for you, just add some pressure to your target. Trying to kill with CD only is like trying to survive with healing power only (ignoring vitality and toughness).
Yes, it can be removed but you need to waste a trait, skill or an utility skill and that mean less dmg, defense or something else. And even if conditions are easily removed, you can always put more.

Show me exactly where any developer has stated condition damage is meant to be a secondary stat. Because they have talked about condition damage builds several times, you don’t base a build on a secondary stat.

Conncept.7638:

Show me exactly where any developer has stated condition damage is meant to be a secondary stat. Because they have talked about condition damage builds several times, you don’t base a build on a secondary stat.

Are you serious?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attribute#Secondary_attributes

Now, open the game, press H and look at the attributes part. Do you see Condition Damage? Oh wait! It’s there, listed in 3rd place on your “Attack Stats”, under POWER and Weap. Dmg.

And you thinks builds suggested by devs are to be taken seriously?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hamstorm

Just saying.

Giving me my own kitten stack would be a start, lol.

daimasei.4091:

Conncept.7638:

Show me exactly where any developer has stated condition damage is meant to be a secondary stat. Because they have talked about condition damage builds several times, you don’t base a build on a secondary stat.

Are you serious?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attribute#Secondary_attributes

Now, open the game, press H and look at the attributes part. Do you see Condition Damage? Oh wait! It’s there, listed in 3rd place on your “Attack Stats”, under POWER and Weap. Dmg.

And you thinks builds suggested by devs are to be taken seriously?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hamstorm

Just saying.

Hamstorm is even leeter than Echo mending.

daimasei.4091:

Conncept.7638:

Show me exactly where any developer has stated condition damage is meant to be a secondary stat. Because they have talked about condition damage builds several times, you don’t base a build on a secondary stat.

Are you serious?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attribute#Secondary_attributes

Now, open the game, press H and look at the attributes part. Do you see Condition Damage? Oh wait! It’s there, listed in 3rd place on your “Attack Stats”, under POWER and Weap. Dmg.

And you thinks builds suggested by devs are to be taken seriously?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hamstorm

Just saying.

And yet, they already had to nerf healing across the board because it was dominating high-end PvP. Additionally, any real PvPer can tell you that the best the best damage returns without going glass cannon come from critical damage.

Both are secondary stats, I am well aware what they’re called. But when you say ‘secondary’ you mean ‘inferior’, which is not meant to be the case according to the designers themselves. And as ‘leet’ as I’m sure you think you are, you do not know as much about the game as the developers. Especially when, they’e already made a statement in contrary to your opinion, here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#post267261