Guild Wars 2

Coming from WoW, what is the actual endgame in this game? From what I’ve played so far, it’s basically heart hopping and doing repetitive typical boring events.

What is there to actually strive for? I mean, you pretty much get everything handed to you at the beginning of the game and PvP has absolutely no point in progression.

correct, there is no real endgame. now, people will come here and will give you lists of what things you can do in endgame, like map-completion, achievements, farm materials for a legendary.

but imo, this is BS.

figured. considering every new zone I went to I was doing the same exact thing over and over on repeat. I enjoyed GW1 but that was like 8 years ago… i hate to say it but with no progression, MMORPGs are a complete waste of time and it’s part of the reason why I can’t bring myself to level past 25 on my Warrior unless i knew that all my ridiculously hard work to 80 was worth something other then what I’ve already been doing a million times already

Vinila wow had real endgame better than This????

people glorafiy what they feel nostalgic for

Riyu.2103:

correct, there is no real endgame. now, people will come here and will give you lists of what things you can do in endgame, like map-completion, achievements, farm materials for a legendary.

but imo, this is BS.

The problem lies in the fact that there is nothing in this game that enforces you to simply play the game and enjoy it. Money is constantly an outlying problem and why simply play the game and net an abysmal amount of reward when you can just simply farm the game and net a greater amount of reward?

Map completion and achievements is nothing more than preference, if someone wants to do that, they can do it, but it only satisfies ego strokers and not players who would rather be would-be adventurers. This game rewards adventurers really poorly since one of the main reasons a person would likely play an MMO is to seek fortune.

Don’t even get me to legendary crafting, since that is merely for a niche group of ego strokers, I don’t have a problem with that. What I do have a problem is people recommending people to ultimately craft their own legendary, using perhaps hundreds of hours and gold to do so.; not everyone is looking to do that.

The list of 80 things to do at 80 is totally trite and doesn’t actually bring any solutions, just someone else’s preferences of playing the game.

All in all, the WHOLE game should be endgame but it doesn’t reward you well for doing whatever you want, otherwise, the downscaling level system is all for nothing because what’s the point of playing the rest of the game when all you do is:

Stay in 70+ zones
Dungeons
PvP

Let me guess – youv’e started this thread because you genuinely want to express some valid and rational concerns, and given that your title is a question, you are open minded to having your preconceived notions challenged by those among your peers who have an alternate perspective? Why of course!

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Vinila wow had real endgame better than This????

What does that have to do with anything?

Do you have any idea how utterly pathetic you sound?

‘Ridiculously hard work’?

It’s a game. It doesn’t require you to do anything but sit on your fat kitten and click a button. Just like every game.

My own opinion is that, to me, PvP isn’t ‘pointless’ without progression. Last I checked, the ‘point’ of PvP is in its name: to fight other players. I enjoy doing that and don’t need a new piece of armour with +5 Dexterity or whatever in order to do it.

Some people just prefer to play the game, to have fun. Some people have different ideas about what constitutes fun.

Judging from other people I know and have spoken to that share you views, you might suffer from insecurity issues. You will probably deny this. But there’s not many reasons why you find the idea of having better gear than somebody else so important; you like to have better gear than people in the game because, most likely, your real life is severely lacking and devoid of any noteworthy achievements.

I think this thread is more of a complaint that there is nothing in this game that makes you feel like a better person than the person next too you with lesser gear.

You people cover this up with terms like ‘progression’, ‘strive’, ‘rewards’ and the dreaded ‘end game’.

I love the pvp has no progression.

Dunno why games like street fighter, mortal kombat, marvel v capcom, or counter strike did good at all. All pvp games with 0 progression.

What does that have to do with anything? The game is bran freaking new It dose a lot of things differently ((or re-imagind)) it still needs time to grow and get bigger

Vinila wow had its problems not much in the way of end game it did a lot of things differently ((or re-imagind)) it needed time to grow and get bigger.

people forget that and there all like “Oh weres the END GAME” it has plenty of end game for a bran new MMO

Electroflux.5320:

figured. considering every new zone I went to I was doing the same exact thing over and over on repeat. I enjoyed GW1 but that was like 8 years ago… i hate to say it but with no progression, MMORPGs are a complete waste of time and it’s part of the reason why I can’t bring myself to level past 25 on my Warrior unless i knew that all my ridiculously hard work to 80 was worth something other then what I’ve already been doing a million times already

Honestly, this sounds like it’s not your kinda game then. If gear progression via raiding the same dungeon “a million times” is what you’re looking for, there are plenty of options out there.

Romeo.4378:

.
Judging from other people I know and have spoken to that share you views, you might suffer from insecurity issues. You will probably deny this. But there’s not many reasons why you find the idea of having better gear than somebody else so important; you like to have better gear than people in the game because, most likely, your real life is severely lacking and devoid of any noteworthy achievements.

I’d be a little more concerned about yourself if you’re going to go that far into making a ridiculous assumption based off a tiny paragraph I posted, lol.

I can recommend you help, however.

PvP is supposed to be the end-game, but the removal of a lot of complex elements really killed the longevity of it. Making your unique dual-class character with the choice between hundreds of skill on a full bar was most of the fun. Skills were complex because they all had specific activation times, recharge times and energy usage. This allowed you to order specific attacks into eachother based on those properties. Not to mention there were literally hundreds of different hexes and enchantments, rather than the streamlined approach of only about 10 different modifiers.

I realize that it is designed for a group that just wants to jump into the fight and be able to do good by whatever they do, but they are not pleasing GW’s fanbase by this. I still remember that moment when Nightfall came out and I put a scythe on my assassin with a few specific critical strike attacks. I was literally wrecking faces doing 200 damage crits in an arc. Sure it was nerfed later, but finding out effective combinations is the most fun of the game: the thinking game. GW2 is simply not designed to be a thinking game, it’s streamlined for a new generation of gamers.

But ArenaNet is forgetting one thing with this group they are aiming at. As easy as they like just jumping into a game to play, as easy they will jump onto another game and forget about GW2 altogether. It’s the loyal fanbase where their future lies, that fanbase that allowed GW1 thrive into what it is now. To me it would only be logical to cater towards them and offer the truely unique and original GW experience, rather than to cater towards a new group for a short-lived profit.

Fox.1054:

PvP is supposed to be the end-game, but the removal of a lot of complex elements really killed the longevity of it. Making your unique dual-class character with the choice between hundreds of skill on a full bar was most of the fun. Skills were complex because they all had specific activation times, recharge times and energy usage. This allowed you to order specific attacks into eachother based on those properties. Not to mention there were literally hundreds of different hexes and enchantments, rather than the streamlined approach of only about 10 different modifiers.

While I loved Build Wars 1, GW2 is a whole new machine and implementing customisable weapon skills will change it completely and perhaps not the way to go with this game. I could probably live with a lot more weapon types however.

Another problem with having so many skills is that it ultimately unbalances the game. PvP builds over time were so homogenised because ANet nerfed builds like Scythe assassins and warriors. PvE was pretty much doable everywhere by simply having an Imbagon on the team.

GW2 Endgame is WvW and SPvP. Some people like the op, really. Why do you think millions and millions of people play games like CoD, Battlefield or League of Legends? Because of PVE progression?

You miss the hamster wheel. You want to earn something, then have it devalued, then earn it again, then have it devalued again, etc. That is pointless… but then that is what you call progression.

This game isn’t about progression. Never was. Never advertised that it would be.

If that sort of progression has meaning to you, there are a whole host of games out there that offer it. Please leave this game alone for those of us who bought this game precisely to get away from that hamster wheel of pointless progression. You know, we bought the game because it promised us no progression… just worlds to explore.

Another thread where people are all focused on the “end game” rather than being focused on “the game”.

Maybe GW2 is not the game for you?

IF you want to play WoW By all means play WoW. I hear that they just released a great new expansion that added in all sorts of “new” gameplay. Enjoy.

Fox.1054:

PvP is supposed to be the end-game, but the removal of a lot of complex elements really killed the longevity of it.

I agree with everything you said.

The PvP in this game isn’t that fun, like … at all. Seriously, if I wanted to play a game where I jumped into a game, killed people and left, just for fun, then I certainly wouldn’t be playing an MMO to do it.

The point of PvE and PvP in MMO is the progression. It feels more satisfactory to know that you could possibly have a chance at gearing your character to have that slight advantage against people who don’t. I know a lot of people hate this because they always say “blah blah, i don’t have the time to gear to be competitive in PvP” but who cares. If you don’t have the time to gear your character in an MMORPG then you certainly should not be playing an MMORPG as it requires nothing BUT time.

The fact is, there is no sense to casual bg in this game, like I said, it’s not even that exciting. We need something to strive for, something to make you feel good that you completed this goal that maybe a lot of other people haven’t.

They did do Gear Based PvP

They call it WvW. I am guessing your not fully exotic equipped at level 80 killing a level 30 or else you would immediately see the difference. Just take a team of 5 exotic geared players and go stealth cap points → Wait for lowbies to take it back → kill them.

The point of PvE and PvP in MMO is the progression. It feels more satisfactory to know that you could possibly have a chance at gearing your character to have that slight advantage against people who don’t. I know a lot of people hate this because they always say “blah blah, i don’t have the time to gear to be competitive in PvP” but who cares. If you don’t have the time to gear your character in an MMORPG then you certainly should not be playing an MMORPG as it requires nothing BUT time.

So, you just want to wave your kitten around because you think that gear/time=skill?

I also love that this very same argument was given by EQ players when WoW came out because WoW just handed you gear.

veritech.1048:

I also love that this very same argument was given by EQ players when WoW came out because WoW just handed you gear.

I was one of those people. “Seriously? No corpse run? You can log on and get an upgrade basically every day at level 1? Lolz World of CasualCraft!”

Then I realized how stupid that was. Then I realized from other games that no matter how much raid content you have the MMO hoppers will jump ship.

Cant complete the game though since no one is doing the last dungeon and I dont have a guild so Im pretty much screwed, more on that later.

A)Dungeons
-Are not fun.
-No one is doing them.
—The problem I see in them are that too cheap for the CPU to wipe your party without much effort. Monster groups that are larger and tougher than yours, Insta kill traps, insta kill skills, party wipe skills, and general cheapness on part of the enemies and without effort to kill your party.

B)Skills and Traits
-Descriptions
-Too much bugged skills and traits
—Theres a lot of skills and traits that lack description. Most of these skills are wrongly worded and/or written. Take for Example:
[Toss Elixir B] (Toolbelt skill)
—Toss Elixir B to grant fury, might, retaliation, and swiftness.
What it actually does is “Toss Elixir B to grant fury, might, retaliation, or swiftness.”
Same goes with the traits. Theres Trairs that have cooldown but are not mentioned.
For example Hidden Flask: “Drink Elixir B at 75% health.” Havent measure the
cooldown yet.
—Most Traits dont affect Elite skills and some do but you have no idea which Traits do this.

C)WvW
-Cant enter Eternal Battlegrounds do to heavy queue. Have not even entered once.
-Only a minor percentage of players of the world in a server can participate in WvW.
-Repairing armor constantly. Im not going to buy gold, already paid full price for the game.
-WvW is much like GvG but with free entry.
—If you dont enter with a guild or group(that is, if all of your group and/or guild can enter due to heavy queue), theres not much to look at.
-Building War Machines needs a lot of silver and materials.
—All of the time Ive spent playing WvW without a guild/group, no one buys War Machines.
-Notifications on the map most of the time leads to a trap of zerg rush.
-You cant see enemies on the radar.
—Theres no way to tell the danger ahead on the notifications. Unlike GW1, enemies cant be seen on the radar.

D)PvP
-Cant say anything bad about pvp, its fast, if you win/lose you just keep on gaming, other than a lot of Engies, Mesmers and Guardians.

E)Story mode
-Voice acting is bad.

Ive read that Dungeons are getting farmed? Maybe that less than 1% of players on each server that are doing this, and the dev team gets notice on their stats when is the same players doing this.

Right now I get a lot fun out of sPvP and Story.
Unfortunately, I find WvW and Dungeons obsolete. Maybe its bad on my part that you can only do those mode with guilds since theres no players hanging around for them.

@veritech

I had some feeling some troll would come in and cry like that.

You clearly have no idea what’s going on.

I am really enjoying this game, I’m level 80 and I WvW every night. It’s a blast.

That said. Isn’t it a bit odd that the game offers two paths from level 1-80? A PVP path and a PVE path (Even a crafting path). But then when you get to level 80, the “Endgame” is precised to narrow to just the one path of PVP/SPVP?

If WvW is the read end game, then I think we should all be more upset about the queues that we have to sit in during prime time every day.

Again. People are missing the point.

WoW TELLS you that you raid for “end game”
Its boring standing around waiting for 10 …let alone 25 people to get their act together and get going.
Fighting over who gets what gear when.
This so called “progression” you speak of goes something like this:
T56 raid comes out. Grind to get full set of T56 gear.
T57 raid comes out. T56 gear is obsolete. Grind to get full set of T57 gear.
T58 raid comes out. T56 AND T57 gear are now obsolete. Grind to get a full set of T58 gear.

In GW2 YOU get to choose what you want to do for your engame.
100% map completion?
World explorer?
WvW?
sPVP?
Legendary weapon?

And yes. You can level from 1 to 80 doing nothing but WvW, OR Pve, OR yes even crafting.

The point is you dont have to get to the level cap to “play” the game.

This isn’t a formula MMORPG where you eternally grind gear once you hit the level cap.

If you didn’t get the memo…

The concept of endgame isn’t really the same here. You’re supposed to enjoy the whole game the entire game, not just discard the bulk of the game chasing the endgame myth.

That said, the max level content in this game is pretty lacking. The Orr zones aren’t as compelling as initially described, for ex, and there is only ONE zone that is lvl 80 that has more bots in it than players.

Electroflux.5320:

Coming from WoW, what is the actual endgame in this game? From what I’ve played so far, it’s basically heart hopping and doing repetitive typical boring events.

What is there to actually strive for? I mean, you pretty much get everything handed to you at the beginning of the game and PvP has absolutely no point in progression.

It’s interesting you see raids in WoW and the high stats on the very, very hard to get items as a reason to keep playing WoW. MMOs such as WoW and others with similar endgame content produce a group of players who grind to max level, speeding through all the games content only so they can enjoy the endgame. I’m not saying you did that or that all players approached it in that way, but a good number did. IMO that’s where the traditional endgame model goes to stale.

It has been fun seeing so many grind to 80 in GW2 and then scream “where is endgame”. The game has some real problems at level 80 (namely a broken system where rewards do not equal payout) but it’s like of raids is not one of them. Every dungeon has story mode and an explorable mode. Explore mode can take hours and very structured team play, you have three to pick from that are geared for level 80 (endgame) play. Honor the Waves, Crucible of Eternity and of course the dungeon where Zhitan is

I would bet money on this fact: If gw2 had raids and progression like WoW, then people would post on the forums that gw2 is a wow clone. They would then ask why they should play gw2 when they can do the same thing in WoW.

I think it’s important to state where the game is at the moment, it’s been out for little over a month, it’s the bare bones of a world that is going to get bigger and better.

Suggestions? gear up now for probable new higher end content.

“End Game” is nothing more then a name for bad game design.

The idea that you have to get through some inconsequential part of the game in order to access some “End Game” only means that the majority of your game sucks.

GW2 has rightly recognized this, and spread the game activity over all levels. Level 80 just isn’t important here; if you don’t see an endgame, it’s because you rushed to 80 and skipped past the ACTUAL game. Get used to it, roll an alt, and go enjoy the hundreds of hours of incredibly detailed content that the world provides. Or don’t roll an alt and do it while downscaled. That’s what it’s there for.

Onza.7165:

I think it’s important to state where the game is at the moment, it’s been out for little over a month, it’s the bare bones of a world that is going to get bigger and better.

Suggestions? gear up now for probable new higher end content.

I agree. I don’t like the DR system and the current Orr setup for end game zones so I don’t do them much at all. Instead I’m gearing my 80 via dungeon runs and I’m leveling an engineer. I believe something better will come with time, so I’m finding other ways to have fun until then.

Electroflux.5320:

figured. considering every new zone I went to I was doing the same exact thing over and over on repeat. I enjoyed GW1 but that was like 8 years ago… i hate to say it but with no progression, MMORPGs are a complete waste of time and it’s part of the reason why I can’t bring myself to level past 25 on my Warrior unless i knew that all my ridiculously hard work to 80 was worth something other then what I’ve already been doing a million times already

Well, I hate to say it but even WITH progression MMORPGs are a complete waste of time. MMORPGS should be just that, role-playing games with a LOT of players playing with you. GW2 gets the exploration and fantasy part of the equation, and I’ve played through the story minus 5 dungeons, and now I’m good.

Hanging on to a game just to grind out gear and stats is a bore and a chore. You want good PVP? Play TF2 or battlefield or any of a number of RTS games. Good RPG? There’s a bunch of those in single player variety. Some people just want to run on the hamster wheel and be fed rewards like a dog, and I don’t understand that.

Since noone seems to remember it, or is laboring under the false impression that the Devs have not responded to all the complaints:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

Anet’s official position. Bam.

SideStep.1347:

A)Dungeons
-Are not fun.

B)Skills and Traits
-Descriptions

E)Story mode
-Voice acting is bad.

A) I think dungeon bosses need to be less ‘tank’ and spank, and more mechanic driven. Most fights go the way of, watch out for the circles and hit his huge bar, while sometimes the insanely heavy damage hit downs someone.

I don’t get this. I feel bosses should be more multi-faceted. Have strange effects happening, interacting with the environment, and just be all round different. To give an example, the one boss in TA story turns a player into a kitten that gets chased by hounds, while he also unloads heavy confusion on another. It’s a small example, but it makes the fight different and memorable.

B) I just wish traits would be better portrayed in the skill tooltips, like if something adds burning to a skill, let the skill show it. If a skill has a lessened cooldown, then show it.

C) I wouldn’t say the voice acting is bad at all. Considering the amount of recorded actors, there’s a decent lot in there, especially the main voices.

No, my problems with the story lies elsewhere, the last 10% to be exact. WHen you hit Orr, the narrative grows a bit shallow, and uninteresting.

What I dislike is the fact that Trahearne makes the story his own. I believe he should have been a mediator between the Orders, a neutral voice of the Pact, if you will. Not the leader. You should have been the general, which makes sense, but Trahearne makes you feel a bit too much like a flunky.

Then I dislike the way the Pact went. I appreciate the fact that there needs to be an alliance, but once it happens, it feels like your order looses its identity. Wouldn’t it have made more sense if the orders still went about their own methods, but coordinated their movements. While the OoW gain key information weaknesses and battle movements, the Priory uncover lost relics and ancient weaponry, while both provide an edge to the Vigil in their full out assault. Instead the story has too many ragtag elements of each, while Trahearne gives you small, unimportant options.

Wouldn’t it have been more engaging if Trahearne brought you information from the other two orders, while you make tactical decisions as to your own order’s movements? Where each decision you make have lasting effects on subsequent story missions.

I absolutely love this game for many reasons……but endgame content seems a bit thin to say the least. Why didn’t Arenanet basically just tell players that there really wasn’t an endgame rather than all of the verbal gymnastics that we got instead (ie. “The game IS the endgame”…blah..blah.). I think a lot of people still would have bought an endgameless (is that even a word?) game, especially because of the lack of subscription fee. I did my homework and I got what I expected. However, the language they used prior to release gave me the impression that longevity beyond level 80 was important to them, and gave me hope that there actually would be something to do after level 80 (not raids, which is fine by me). Oh well, I love the game for what it is.

Please note: I am absolutely not saying that Anet lied to me. Quite the contrary, actually, they are one of the most honest development companies I have encountered. However, I do think they would have saved themselves (and some players) a lot of grief if they would have been more blunt on this point.

Arenanet have always been masters of marketing spin. After all, the founders were original Blizzard devs back in 2003 era. And look at the marketing that happened back then.

If you look at the experience you get from level one, you’re pretty much getting the same kind of experiences you would take part in after working through a quest grind in a standard classic mmo. The idea being that you can take part in the majority of the type of experiences the game has to offer from the get go.

It’s a great idea, and is almost overwhelming the first few days you’re thrown into the mix. The “issue” being (I use the word issue lightly) that since you’ve so much on your plate from the very beginning, players are able to digest through the types of experiences the game has to offer rather quickly. As opposed to something where you’re working through road blocks. Such as gaining item score. Hitting max level. Attunement. Or finding a magic key. The type of game we’re used to playing is where we play X game 1-80, then Z game at the cap. Not so here.

To be fair, they had always stated that there would not be a traditional end game. What one person calls endgame in guild wars 2, another may not. I personally run a dungeon or two each day. Kill a few dragons if I run across them. Wvw with a large guild. And am working on crafting / purchasing a few exotics. This works for me for the time being. But some other players desire a structured experience.

I am of course rather curious to see what kinds of content they release next. (TIP – They’ve hinted at November.)

GW1 didnt have much of an endgame either beyond pvp. Arenanet said they wouldn’t be focusing on endgame progression in GW2 either. This is only news to the uninformed

Rhyse.8176:

“End Game” is nothing more then a name for bad game design.

^^^ x10

That’s the real issue I have with the GW2 has no endgame complaints. As said before, the traditional MMO structure created large mass of players who have conditioned themselves to be after one goal after character creation is done. That goal? To hit level cap, grab max stat gear and then focus on content that requires max stats. This group came into GW2 and approached it the same way as the last ten MMOs they played in doing so they only hurt themselves because ArenaNet put the best parts of the game in the game not tucked away in end game. Some really can’t get their head around this. Instead of trying to just have fun at level 1 they choose the path of must grind to 80 I’m very happy ArenaNet has made a game that punishes the player who grinds to 80 instead of rewards them. It’s a new type of MMO if they don’t get it or respect it it’s best for all parties if they move on.

At first I was angry at this group for disrespecting the game. It’s like taking a child through the Museum of Modern Art in NYC and they just speed through and wonder what’s next. My emotions changed from anger to indifference. Now I’m quite happy they are moving on to other MMOs or back to told ones. I could say they are too narrow minded to get GW2 but I’ve settled on the reality that some people really, really love traditional MMOs. They love to repeat the same task over and over and grind, they love having a giant grid of skills blocking 1/4 of the screen in the HUD they don’t care about graphics or art direction…. The world’s a colorful place big enough for many different types of games.

With the traditional MMO grind crowd headed out the door angry GW2 isn’t another clone of that other game, the future community of GW2 can start to build up and I’m happy to be part of that new community.

When you radically redefine things as GW2 has there is always a cleansing period.

Wasn’t their big thing that there was no end game? And people are shocked? I was following their progress in making this game for quite some time.

It seems to me people are trying to bring the WoW mindset and playstyle to a different game. MMORPG means multi-massive online role playing game, not grind your life away so you can get that one item or stat that makes you a fraction of a percentage better than everyone else until your gear is obsolete and you have to do it all over again.

(For the record, that would be a GYLASYCGTOIOSTMYAFOAPBTEEUYGIOAYHTDIAOA)

If you are under the notion that an MMO must abide by that play style and strict notion of “progression” you’re the one playing the wrong game. The whole point of GW2’s content is to give us something other than that endless grind. I have not done anything in-game that I have considered a grind. I have nothing to prove to anyone else and I could give a flying kitten if you have stuff that makes you just so much better than me.

Why do you guys keep comparing GW2 with WoW Endgame? I think the problem lies there.

You cant expect the same kind of endgame. I would compare GW2 to Call of Duty. Would you complaint that CoD has no endgame? Its silly. You log in when you feel like playing… and all you do is kill different people in the same maps again and again and again… yet its fun… Well… thats GW2 for me aswell.

I hit 80 already, and im in full exotic gear, so i log whenever i feel like to play some WvW with friends, play some dungeon for different skins, etc. I dont find myself forced to play 12 hours a day to farm stuff to be ready for “raid”. I dont need a new piece of gear with just a few more stats… and then to wait for the next raid site and a few more points of stats…

Its been said already. This is not a game you play for progression. Theres tons of other games for that.

There’s two kinds of players, those that tend to prefer improving their character, and those that tend to prefer improving their guild or group. Neither is better than the other. Toon-centred players come in two types, those that think WoW is a bad game because it’s all about the gear and those that think its great because its all about the gear.

The first kind love GW2 because GW2 is all about the gear but that gear never goes obsolete. The second type are disappointed in GW2 because it never gets better. But what about the team-centred player. These players loved WoW when WoW is about beating all the bosses and tend to get annoyed when their guildies seem more interested in gear. These types of players came to GW2 thinking great, here is a game with no gear progression, we can concentrate on the glory now. They were wrong. GW2 is just as gear centred as WoW but there are absolutely no group goals at all. So in the end the only group that a fully happy with GW2 are toon-centred players that don’t like their gear to become obsolete.

There won’t be stat progression in this game but there needs to be something more than toon-centred progression. Not every player is obsessed with improving their own individual toon and would rather work at group goals. Thats what progression in other MMOs offered to that type of player, not gear, but group goals and the toon-centred player never realised this because he/she can’t get beyond their own toon-improving way of looking the game. We need group goals to justify guilds, something like constructing a guild hall but you can only get the mats while doing group activities such as dungeons in a guild group.

From the Devs, since apparently noone read their article last month (see my earlier post for link):

“In the past, we’ve talked about how in Guild Wars 2 we designed the game to avoid a common problem in many MMOs: grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate.

When we looked at the concept of “endgame” for Guild Wars 2, we designed it the same way. We didn’t want the endgame to be something you could only experience after a hundred hours of gameplay or after you reached some arbitrary number. We wanted it to be something that players got to experience every step along the way, spread out across the entire world of Tyria, so we’ve introduced game elements that you’d normally associate with “endgame” at every level and every possible opportunity."

In short, it’s a feature, not a bug.

“Judging from other people I know and have spoken to that share you views, you might suffer from insecurity issues. You will probably deny this. But there’s not many reasons why you find the idea of having better gear than somebody else so important; you like to have better gear than people in the game because, most likely, your real life is severely lacking and devoid of any noteworthy achievements.”

Really? What is up with people trying to degrade other in order to achieve a point? My retort to that, if it was simply about PvP with no rewards, it really would not matter how you did it because you would have the same exact result. People play games because they seek enjoyment. Your downcast on someone who feels the endgame is lacking, is simply uncalled for. Simply by attacking someone else, you have shown that you have nothing of value to contribute and are only here to troll. You have demonstrated your lack of intelligence.

It is factual, in all forms of life, that organisms strive at tasks to complete goals. When no goals are given, their is often times no reason to perform such deeds unless it is done out of morality. Morality comes into play when you are willing to do tasks for people in ways that will not compensate yourself. Player vs. Player is specifically pitting one player, against another. (nokitten) This is the opposite of morality, and thus requires a goal. If the goal was as simple as killing someone, no enjoyment would be obtained unless you enjoyed repetition, which most people do not. If people enjoyed repetition, new things would not emerge. By providing goals, and rewards (even if they do not make you better) that give bragging rights, you are now able to give that player an excuse to keep playing. It is ego. Most PvP and “competitive” play is driven by insecure individuals who seek to downplay others to gain security of your own. That’s why you see so many ragers and trolls in PvP environments compared to the traditional PvE model.

And in retort to Anet’s anti-grind memo: After finishing the game, all you have left is to grind. Here, let me grind for weapons… Oh, armor now. Oh, a title. Oh, dungeons. etc.

Maybe I feel that way because I actually enjoyed team-oriented combat such as Fort-Aspenwood in Guild Wars 1. Or the Speedclears because they required teamwork.

The dungeons are a grindfest and a deathfest for most players. The sPvP is just short of pointless. It’s not even teamwork. It’s just lots of facerolling. If you do tourneys, I’ll exclude you from that comment. WvWvW is pretty fun, because even though it is chaotic, you can sit down with friends and actually accomplish tasks.

I spend all of my time in Guild Wars 1 helping other plays, and loved it. Even if I repeated the same content. Their was always something new, even in how we executed it. When we would vanquish, we would Rangerway some areas because it was a thrill. I have yet to find an avenue of thrill within this sequel. And the glorified speeches about anti-grind are BS. Spending hours of my life for a ‘Legendary’ weapon that means nada? Psh. Please. After seeing the artwork for weapons, I don’t even want to waste my time. Most of the items in the game are, to my taste, horridly ugly, especially medium armors.

To Romeo.4378, please refrain from simplistic, ignorant comments and stop trying to shoot down other members for your own satisfaction.

LanceHavenbay.2067:

Most PvP and “competitive” play is driven by insecure individuals who seek to downplay others to gain security of your own. That’s why you see so many ragers and trolls in PvP environments compared to the traditional PvE model.

Unfortunately that is true…. A proper ranking system and league system would transform sPvP into a true eEsport which is not as you envision it when players of similar skill are pitted against each other. Unless you view all sports in general as something played by “insecure individuals” in which case we have to part ways because that’s ridiculous. When PvP as an esport is designed well you don’t have the best of the best pitted against noobs and it can work quite well. In GW2 there is still no ranking system unfortunately.

And in retort to Anet’s anti-grind memo: After finishing the game, all you have left is to grind. Here, let me grind for weapons… Oh, armor now. Oh, a title. Oh, dungeons. etc.

Maybe I feel that way because I actually enjoyed team-oriented combat such as Fort-Aspenwood in Guild Wars 1. Or the Speedclears because they required teamwork.

The dungeons are a grindfest and a deathfest for most players. The sPvP is just short of pointless. It’s not even teamwork. It’s just lots of facerolling. If you do tourneys, I’ll exclude you from that comment. WvWvW is pretty fun, because even though it is chaotic, you can sit down with friends and actually accomplish tasks.

GW1’s story content was primarily delivered through cooperative missions, GW2’s story content is primarily delivered through personal story chapters. Non-repeatable personal story chapters…. Dungeons in story mode are the closest thing to cooperative missions we have in GW2. We need a lot more content like this sprinkled in from level 1-80 and they need to be cooperative story missions not dungeons. Shorter, but requiring strategic small group play.

I also agree WvW is a lot of fun. I think WvW should be developed a bit more to have short term (2-3 hour cycling) objectives. Capturing/repairing structures and protecting supply chains should have some other objectives sprinkled in I think.

Zzulu.5489:

GW1 didnt have much of an endgame either beyond pvp. Arenanet said they wouldn’t be focusing on endgame progression in GW2 either. This is only news to the uninformed

The difference is that the GW1 base experience had zero grind, so you really weren’t grinding towards an ‘end-game’. Whereas in GW2 the game starts feeling like a grind after lv20 considering the low veriety in skills, tasks and missions so people are expecting that grind to pay off in the form of end-game content. You can’t cut corners on two ends and expect it to be received well in the long run.

To say an MMO end game is only pvp is a pretty bad claim. Lots i’d be willing to say at least half don’t care for pvp at all and would really like pve end game. Because its an MMO not a first person shooter

Endgame in GW2 is everything you see. GW2 is not your typical, lame MMO clone.

I have one question for you Electroflux, what is your definition of end game?

If it’s raiding PvE content then this is not the game you should be playing.

If it’s raiding PvP content I.E. WvW then this is the game you should be playing.

Remember WoW was great in the beginning because it brought something new the the MMO world. In some cases that still exists but it really is a PvE oriented game with PvP as an option. This is a PvP game with PvE as an option.