Guild Wars 2

Saving a village that stays saved.

Are they talking about renown hearts? And if so, are the gratitude you receive in the mail? Then the few lines of changed text the NPCs spiel afterwards?

What is so amazing and original about this? Pretty much every other MMO has this. I save a guy from centaurs in WoW, he won’t offer the same quest to me afterwards; he is saved. Permanently.

It doesn’t very heroic when you go around feeling for pockets of gratitude from all over the map. In fact, the way the NPCs shower you with money afterwards makes you feel a lot more like a sellsword than a hero.

Pretty sure it is in reference to the dynamic events.

There are some events where you defend an outpost from an onslaught of Centaurs. If you fail or are not there, another event will come up to take it back etc.

Jemmi.6058:

Pretty sure it is in reference to the dynamic events.

There are some events where you defend an outpost from an onslaught of Centaurs. If you fail or are not there, another event will come up to take it back etc.

Then why mention the permanence at all? None of that is felt in the brief 5 minutes before the event is restarted. I’m not saying events shouldn’t be restarted, but aren’t they working with an idea that can never come to fruition?

kKagari.6804:

Then why mention the permanence at all? None of that is felt in the brief 5 minutes before the event is restarted. I’m not saying events shouldn’t be restarted, but aren’t they working with an idea that can never come to fruition?

Being an mmo, you can’t really achieve permanence, and while the dynamic events do not grant it completely, it still is slightly more of a nod towards it. In itself, while they greatly exagerated it with that statement of course, that is something I feel gw2 did pretty well actually – quests don’t magically reset completely after you’ve done them at least, contrary to what most, if not all mmos did before that.
If you want to bash them however, my favourite is the “no grind” statement, and how “we want our rare weapons to only be different in their looks, never in their actual power!”, but that horse was beaten to death already I guess.

to you as a player you are suppose to feel like “ya I saved this village”

Renown hearts and dynamic events are two different things.

Renown hearts tasks could have a more traditional quest like feel to them. There must be other things going on in these towns then the random enemy DE attack.

Maybe Anet can add instanced traditional style quests to the towns. Or mini SP DE’s that only that player can activate, kind of like skill points with a story.

I dont think they can accurately deliver on this 100%. The events HAVE to repeat to some degree in order for other players to do them as well. If things worked that way, they would need to keep creating new content for every zone weekly and no company has the time or money to do that.

I agree that events need to be repeated. But tbh, I think they should have done away with tiny non-chain-events and went with several (note; several, not 1 or 2) meta events through the area.

For instance:
5 villages need to get saved. They are attacked at the same time. Due to the amount of players in the area, not all 5 can get saved at the same time. The villages that do get saved, will produce a militia, which will be different to the militia other villages produce. The militia will continue with you to fight off the raiders. If enough militia survives the encounter afterwards, you get different rewards.

With a lengthier chain event, it prevents the event from feeling like it will restart, just as soon as it was finished. Other players can easily join in mid chain and still continue to the end, and so on and so forth. The meta-events in the game right now are OK, the non-meta-event chains are completely stale.

There are only two ways I know to achieve permanence of events (or the illusion of such).

WoW has/had a phasing scheme where you would complete certain events and then you would be permanently shifted to a different “phase” where something that changed on the map would stay changed.

Of course, this is unsustainable for a large number of independent events, and it has some really annoying quirks like being unable to see party members who are standing on the same spot on the map who have a different set of completed events than you.

The other alternative is true permanence, where the outcome of an event for one group of players actually changes the map for all players. This would allow each server to organically change according to events that occur and do so in any number of ways. It involves allowing for NPC deaths and building/terrain destruction.

The potential issue with this is if your world/realm/server gets into an irrecoverable state – for instance, if Jade Quarry decided to sit out Claw of Jormag events, only to discover that the dragon wiped out every waypoint on the map, with no hope of allied forces re-taking them.

Imagine starting a game months (or years) after release, only to discover that the game is unplayable because of the state that previous players left it in. Or just as bad – there’s nothing to do because the previous players already eliminated the enemy.

ATMAvatar.5749:

There are only two ways I know to achieve permanence of events (or the illusion of such).

WoW has/had a phasing scheme where you would complete certain events and then you would be permanently shifted to a different “phase” where something that changed on the map would stay changed.

Of course, this is unsustainable for a large number of independent events, and it has some really annoying quirks like being unable to see party members who are standing on the same spot on the map who have a different set of completed events than you.

The other alternative is true permanence, where the outcome of an event for one group of players actually changes the map for all players. This would allow each server to organically change according to events that occur and do so in any number of ways. It involves allowing for NPC deaths and building/terrain destruction.

The potential issue with this is if your world/realm/server gets into an irrecoverable state – for instance, if Jade Quarry decided to sit out Claw of Jormag events, only to discover that the dragon wiped out every waypoint on the map, with no hope of allied forces re-taking them.

Imagine starting a game months (or years) after release, only to discover that the game is unplayable because of the state that previous players left it in. Or just as bad – there’s nothing to do because the previous players already eliminated the enemy.

Ah, I think the general consensus on the phasing idea from WoW was that it didn’t work. I guess they are sort of doing it with the living story thing now, but at the rate its going, I don’t think many people are interested in it anymore.

Dynamic events are about changing the world for a time.
You save the village so the centaurs do not have it. You can see what the results of your victory, freed villagers.
You could’ve let them all be wiped out, and you may of seen the bodies on the floor like the Giant of Dissea plateau.

There have been permanent one-time events.
These had destroyed the fountain of Lions arch, which is now repaired, and brought about and shaped the Southsun cove from a place with a bunch of trees which were then cut the hell down on our way to level the place and destroy the Ancient Karka.

You don’t get one-time events often, partially because players hate missing out on content.
The living Story atm is also not permanent, steps will be removed so your contributions today may be significant to you as you won’t be able to go back once the world moves on.

ensoriki.5789:

Dynamic events are about changing the world for a time.
You save the village so the centaurs do not have it. You can see what the results of your victory, freed villagers.
You could’ve let them all be wiped out, and you may of seen the bodies on the floor like the Giant of Dissea plateau.

There have been permanent one-time events.
These had destroyed the fountain of Lions arch, which is now repaired, and brought about and shaped the Southsun cove from a place with a bunch of trees which were then cut the hell down on our way to level the place and destroy the Ancient Karka.

You don’t get one-time events often, partially because players hate missing out on content.
The living Story atm is also not permanent, steps will be removed so your contributions today may be significant to you as you won’t be able to go back once the world moves on.

I’m sure any MMO can be sold on that same spiel then. WoW adds new maps every now and then. SWTOR adds new maps every now and then. I mean seriously, Arenanet can sell the idea to themselves how original it is and all, but they’re doing the same thing every other game is doing.

kKagari.6804:

In fact, the way the NPCs shower you with money afterwards makes you feel a lot more like a sellsword than a hero.

What is wrong with that? Is everyone supposed to be a hero?

Salacious.7358:

to you as a player you are suppose to feel like “ya I saved this village”

What about “only 2 hearts to go and I’m off this map”?

There was a clarification after the manifesto was posted, because it confused people due to editing. Colin is talking about dynamic events, Ree was talking about personal story.

So a couple of years before the game comes out, developers talked loosely about the idea of what they wanted to do with the game, which is what a manifesto is, btw, a statement of intent, and then people pick it apart word by word, often completely out of context.

Old promo tool is an old promo tool that 90% holds up. It’s a pretty good average. I just wish people would let it go already, because it’s getting old.

kKagari.6804:

Jemmi.6058:

Pretty sure it is in reference to the dynamic events.

There are some events where you defend an outpost from an onslaught of Centaurs. If you fail or are not there, another event will come up to take it back etc.

Then why mention the permanence at all? None of that is felt in the brief 5 minutes before the event is restarted. I’m not saying events shouldn’t be restarted, but aren’t they working with an idea that can never come to fruition?

Theoretically the town can stay saved as long as there are players guarding it and fighting the centaurs back.

OP, go play Firefall. The end

There is a quest where you have to remove centaur traps…and when you’re done, the traps disappear.

Permanence is relevant in MMOs, but they’re trying to do it in a subtle way that won’t disrupt gameplay for those that haven’t completed the event yet.

Salacious.7358:

to you as a player you are suppose to feel like “ya I saved this village”

Instead its like alright time to go grind this event… lol

ThiBash.5634:

There is a quest where you have to remove centaur traps…and when you’re done, the traps disappear.

Permanence is relevant in MMOs, but they’re trying to do it in a subtle way that won’t disrupt gameplay for those that haven’t completed the event yet.

In Kessex right? Those traps don’t actually affect anyone. I was really expecting an NPC to get injured by it or something.

The mines in that weird house in Gendarren on the other hand, had some sort of purpose.

I remember the first time I saw the manifesto video a few years back. I clearly recalled when I heard that part about the village staying saved, and immediately thought “WTH! How is that going to work?” Honestly though, I wasn’t surprised when it was eventually announced that dynamic events is a seesaw, tug of war system.

I initially had this bubbling excitement that ANet was going to come up with this insanely groundbreaking system. Something never before seen or even comprehend before within MMO development. Thinking back, I had no idea how to picture said groundbreaking world. I just thought there was going to be this majorly new way we play MMOs.

I am a bit disappointed that GW2 didn’t turn out to be the insanely recreation of MMOs that functions on a whole new level. That said, I’m not disappointed with how GW2 turned out. It’s still a fun game, but every now and again I imagine those rose-tinted goggles and what that whole new MMO could have been like.

I’ve made my peace with GW2 dynamic content,that
was supposed to result in longlasting effects in the
game world and make my actions matter.
It doesn’t,it’s not even close and that’s ok.
It could be done.If there were 5 times as many de
as we have now,and if there was a team unstopably
working on creating new content,
and if the maps were a lot larger etc etc.
I see the current DE system of Gw2 as an evolution
of the PQ system in WAR,and have no further expectations.
And of course I don’t take the manifesto seriously anymore.

Way back when, Everquest had a permanent encounter (The Sleeper). It was a one time per server deal. Once woken, he would actually leave his tomb and travel halfway across the world, insta-killing everyone in the zone as he passed. It was actually a pretty cool event if you ever saw it, because it was a part of the servers history. Many guilds on each server made pact’s not to kill him because the zone was the only place where you could farm weapons with a very powerful proc (chance on hit effect), and once he was defeated they were no longer available.

Of course, one day came, and one of the leading guilds wanted to ensure their supremacy after kitting out their entire guild, so they went and killed him specifically to stop other guilds gearing up. They eventually became shunned by the rest of the server, but by then it was too late to do anything about it.

That’s not the kind of drama we want in this day and age, trust me. If something is so important that once gone it would be detrimental to those who didn’t take part, it shouldn’t be permanent. If it’s not – then does it really matter?

What you’re saying OP is pretty unrealistic actually.
Stopping one bank robbery will not stop all bank robberies to that bank forever.
In my city a bank has been robbed hundreds of times even if half the attempts led the robbers to be arrested.
Just because you stop one bandit assault it doesn’t meant bandits are disappeared from the world and everyone starts holding hands and dancing in circles while singing Kumbaya.

I dunno the system we have is pretty much what I pictured form their marketing speak, but maybe I’ve just learned how to interpret marketing speak :P

I agree that the WoW phasing had it’s drawbacks. TESO has said they will have phasing, but that you will be able to choose the phase you want to play in at any time. That would be awesome.

I wish that Orr would phase. Once you complete the personal story up to the point that Treheane cleanses Orr, I wish that Orr would actually get cleansed gradually. There could still be things to do; we could have “hearts” to do instead of the pact events. Would be best to be able to pick the phase though, so if you wanted to help with the pact, you could still go back and do that. That’s my daydream…

Remember the Karka event? Yep. An event that had a long-lasting impact on the world – in fact, its effects can still be seen and visited today.

Remember the storm of complaints from people not able to participate?

It’s simply not realistic to expect a long-lasting impact on the world around you in an open world MMO. Yes, I too am sometimes annoyed by the crappy town that simply refuses to defend itself properly, but it’s still better than traditional MMO “go kill the bandits that are burning my farm so my farm will be saved” – type of quests, and when you’re done, the farm is still on fire and forever will be on fire. THAT is having zero impact.

If you want long lasting impact on the world you’ll either have to play a single player game or have something instanced.

Everything stated in the Manifesto is a complete lie. Every thought, every sentence, every word. All lies.

Too bad they overhauled this game a time or three before release. They tried to please the GW1 fans, tried to please the WoW hardcores, and failed at pleasing anyone. Somewhere in the middle, the Manifesto became rubbish.

Thanks to you artists at ArenaNet. kitten shame your management is what it is.

Chuo.4238:

Too bad they overhauled this game a time or three before release. They tried to please the GW1 fans, tried to please the WoW hardcores, and failed at pleasing anyone. Somewhere in the middle, the Manifesto became rubbish.
kitten shame. Had they just made the game they announced right after Eye of the North, we might just be looking at the millions who wanted something other than World of Warcraft.

Thanks to you artists at ArenaNet. kitten shame your management is what it is.

So what…the people that post that they like the game don’t exist? They haven’t pleased anyone?

I’m a GW 1 player and I’m pleased. So’s my wife. So are several of my guildies. I wish people would learn to speak for themselves, instead of trying to talk for everyone.

What they said there they delivered, there are several places in the world that if you take from your enemy wont magically be taken back, aslong as you or someone else defends it when the mobs try to take it back.

kKagari.6804:

Jemmi.6058:

Pretty sure it is in reference to the dynamic events.

There are some events where you defend an outpost from an onslaught of Centaurs. If you fail or are not there, another event will come up to take it back etc.

Then why mention the permanence at all? None of that is felt in the brief 5 minutes before the event is restarted. I’m not saying events shouldn’t be restarted, but aren’t they working with an idea that can never come to fruition?

Colin Johanson mentioned in an interview that their “dream” is to create a game without any repeating events, obviously that’s not possible. Still, it’s a great start.

Chuo.4238:

Too bad they overhauled this game a time or three before release. They tried to please the GW1 fans, tried to please the WoW hardcores, and failed at pleasing anyone. Somewhere in the middle, the Manifesto became rubbish.
kitten shame. Had they just made the game they announced right after Eye of the North, we might just be looking at the millions who wanted something other than World of Warcraft.

Thanks to you artists at ArenaNet. kitten shame your management is what it is.

Like you could do any better. Gw1 player and wow player here. I’m pleased and still playing.

the closest we have to permanent is living story that is going on atm. i am pretty sure that players that come in game after it, will only listen to the stories of our heroic deeds.

There is definitely permanence when taking/keeping outposts.

Go to Sparkfly Fen and in the middle there is an outpost and 3 outer outposts. I was there yesterday and it’s the first time I leveled a character and saw the outer outposts were not under Hylek control. I had to fight off the undead and the Hylek came back. Previously, with other chars, the Hylek were in control and I had to fight off undead attacks.

Presumably, the undeads continue to attack it over and over, and you have to keep defending it. You stop and the Hylek die. You can then come back and retake it, if you please.

The result of not defending it is it permanently being taken control of by the Risen.

Near the end of it’s life, City of Heroes implemented a system where different players saw different things while in the open world depending on what they’ve accomplished. Two players, not teamed with each other, standing next to each other could have one see rampaging mobs tearing up an area in flames while the other sees a peaceful scene of citizens going about their business.

I’m not sure how much of a strain tracking the world status for each player had on the server infrastructure. It also brings up the problem of when teaming whose world view do you see. Also if you are in a “saved world” and you come across a group running an event on an “unsaved world”, do you see them fighting nothing? Do you see them at all? Do they see you?

It’s all a very many-worlds interpretation nightmare.

I think they are referring to the dynamic events. No it doesn’t stay saved permanently, I don’t see how you could ever have this regularly in an MMO. We had the Kakra event which was like that but it turned into a disaster with too many people trying to the event at once and people missing out. It would be great if once the land was cleansed and Zhaitan defeated the land actually started to heal but I don’t really know how they would do this.

But at least when you save a village you see it saved, people rebuild and other events do or don’t happen based on if it was saved. It’s not like you kill X amount of enemies and get thanked for “saving the village” despite the fact that it’s still swarming with enemies and on fire. Eventually it will get attacked when no players are there to defend it and put you back at square one but it feels relatively natural (it’s not like the centaurs are going to stop attacking because they lost one battle) and you need to have the events reset otherwise you run out of them.