Guild Wars 2

The so called ‘Holy Trinity’. Making combat dull. Why do people insist on a trinity? Seriously, the trinity is just dull. People say Guild Wars 2 is just a spamfest… Well isn’t that every MMO with the trinity? In Guild Wars you have to think, and the more you play the more you realise. Saying the game is every man for himself is insane. You go into Arah with everybody doing that and see how long you are in there. I just do not understand why everybody loves the trinity so much. Kind of off subject but the upcoming ‘action’ MMO with the trinity??? An abomination. You cannot have real action combat with a trinity. I honestly think people need to realise what Guild Wars 2 has created is great. It has the best MMO combat I have experienced in ANY MMO. Thankyou ANet!

What do you think of the trinity?

Well for me honestly I loved being a healer class and it was fun relying on heals and buffing your teammates instead of everyone trying to do the highest dps they can. Can’t say I know much about any trinity, but I do know that every dungeon team outside of fractals wants flat dps, dps, dps and nothing else.

I always hear about gw2 has no trinity but is just a dps game. My usual party includes at least 1-2 of us that do not have high dps. In fact, their dps is quite laughable compared to mine, which i am not even a ‘zerker build’ (and i never will make this build) but they do provide valuable support functions. Keeping ppl up (not just by healing) and this is how we run dungeons and fracs. We may not be the fastest ‘elite’ runners type but my guild leader always promotes our little group within the guild as those that will likely guarantee success in any run, best to help new ppl get into dungeons and such. Not trying to brag, but trying to point out that it need not always be dps dps dps, which seems to me largely a player choice. (dps centric zerker type groups also seemed to be very unforgiving of mistakes, another thing i despise about it.)

What do i think of the trinity?

I dont think its an abomination. I dont think its THAT bad. but i can respect, and encourage, systems that try to break away from it, go in a different direction. I think there will be some games that will still have trinity, and why not? it worked, in its own way. But we need it NOT in GW2. So for me, if i want a trinity game, ill go elsewhere, and no, im not saying "this game is not for you, trinity lovers " but rather that should i want it or in the mood for it, i can get it elsewhere but if im tired of it, i can come here. having choices is nice

The people plays togheter more often with it.

I love GW2 system, but i miss a lot the roles in a party . . . it was really fun to be a tank, healer or DD.

That is the problem though, now I have played Guild Wars 2 I can never seem to get back to sitting in one spot hitting 1234567890 whilst the tank and healer does all the work. I tend not to go zerker as well. Zerkers are so squishy. Damage isn’t everything. People sometimes tell me to stop using my rifle on boss fights because my damage will be too low. Thing is, can my GS put vulnerability on them? No.

Glovebox.5724:

Thing is, can my GS put vulnerability on them? No.

You mean warrior? Actually GS auto attack do put vulnerability on them. Also many melee warrior use axe/mace so they can actually spam vulnerability. You also need to consider attack speed, weapon attacking faster might have more chance to cast vulnerability if you trait for it.

Hmmmm, fair enough. Haven’t played for a few days and already forgetting the basics… Haha!

They should’ve just made this game with the trinity. I mean, there’s no other role to play besides dps with this game. Don’t give me that “But what about the support roles, and the guardians that buff?”, because those aren’t useful at all in this game at the moment. Don’t argue with me. If those were useful, then bosses would do certain things like put conditions on you so that certain classes would almost have to spec as a condition remover, or the bosses could make meteors fall from the sky that can be deflected with a mesmer shield. But the bosses don’t do that. So this game would’ve been much better with a trinity, because it seems like it was made for the trinity anyway.

I just fail to understand where people get the idea that trinity = sitting in one spot spamming moves. Granted, maybe in vanilla wow and eq that was the case, but there are a plethora of bosses that require you to do more than simply spam buttons and stand still. I am not saying you should like the trinity, but at least be plausible, otherwise you just sound biased.

Glovebox.5724:

What do you think of the trinity?

I have no problem with them wanting to replace the tank/healer/dps trinity with a damage/control/support one, but I don’t think they’ve gone about it the right way. Right now there is a huge imbalance in the need between damage and control/support.

If control is all but useless (don’t need it against trash mobs, doesn’t work against bosses) and support brings less to a party than more damage, there just isn’t a reason to run anything but damage with enough self-sustainability to keep yourself upright. That means the new trinity is little more than The One (damage) with a bit of window dressing.

Galtrix.7369:

They should’ve just made this game with the trinity. I mean, there’s no other role to play besides dps with this game. Don’t give me that “But what about the support roles, and the guardians that buff?”, because those aren’t useful at all in this game at the moment. Don’t argue with me. If those were useful, then bosses would do certain things like put conditions on you so that certain classes would almost have to spec as a condition remover, or the bosses could make meteors fall from the sky that can be deflected with a mesmer shield. But the bosses don’t do that. So this game would’ve been much better with a trinity, because it seems like it was made for the trinity anyway.

No, no boss in the game ever puts a condition on you… wait wut?

sinzer.4018:

Galtrix.7369:

They should’ve just made this game with the trinity. I mean, there’s no other role to play besides dps with this game. Don’t give me that “But what about the support roles, and the guardians that buff?”, because those aren’t useful at all in this game at the moment. Don’t argue with me. If those were useful, then bosses would do certain things like put conditions on you so that certain classes would almost have to spec as a condition remover, or the bosses could make meteors fall from the sky that can be deflected with a mesmer shield. But the bosses don’t do that. So this game would’ve been much better with a trinity, because it seems like it was made for the trinity anyway.

No, no boss in the game ever puts a condition on you… wait wut?

I mean a bunch of different conditions. And most of the bosses’ conditions aren’t removable anyway. For example: There’s no reason in the world you would need to switch to the water attunement on an Elementalist and use the aoe condition remover, because you just remove a condition every 10 seconds anyway.

Galtrix.7369:

sinzer.4018:

Galtrix.7369:

They should’ve just made this game with the trinity. I mean, there’s no other role to play besides dps with this game. Don’t give me that “But what about the support roles, and the guardians that buff?”, because those aren’t useful at all in this game at the moment. Don’t argue with me. If those were useful, then bosses would do certain things like put conditions on you so that certain classes would almost have to spec as a condition remover, or the bosses could make meteors fall from the sky that can be deflected with a mesmer shield. But the bosses don’t do that. So this game would’ve been much better with a trinity, because it seems like it was made for the trinity anyway.

No, no boss in the game ever puts a condition on you… wait wut?

I mean a bunch of different conditions. And most of the bosses’ conditions aren’t removable anyway. For example: There’s no reason in the world you would need to switch to the water attunement on an Elementalist and use the aoe condition remover, because you just remove a condition every 10 seconds anyway.

Funny you mention elementalist as i play one. By removing condition every 10 seconds you on about sig of water? Yeah, i don’t use it. My condition removal is switching to water, dodging in water and dagger#5. The bonus to all these is that i also remove conditions off nearby allies. Far more useful imo plus i free up a utility slot.

The majority of conditions bosses put on players are removable and there are bosses that put multiple conditions on you.

edit: i use elementalist as support in dungeons, it is probably one of the strongest professions in an unorganised group.

Nothing in any MMO I’ve played to date has yet equaled the fun I experienced learning to play a Tanker in City of Heroes.

The Trinity is awful – not only is it very uncinematic and unrealistic but it also is bad for gameplay mechanics – it basically imposes forced min/maxing on the characters.

The game is better off allowing lots of dynamic strategy and requiring all characters to pull some weight in a variety of areas.

dcypher.2590:

I just fail to understand where people get the idea that trinity = sitting in one spot spamming moves. Granted, maybe in vanilla wow and eq that was the case, but there are a plethora of bosses that require you to do more than simply spam buttons and stand still. I am not saying you should like the trinity, but at least be plausible, otherwise you just sound biased.

Because the point of a tank is to draw up all the aggro to keep the enemies off of everyone else. So the better trinity works, the less people have to move.

So whether or not that’s the case, that’s what people classically think of when you say trinity. A tank gathering up the mob, a healer or two using all their spells to keep it alive, and the rest standing there showering the enemy with dps.

I feel like by itself, the trinity is very shallow. As a healer in you-know-what I’d say 90% of the time it wasn’t really involved, and not really as deep as people claim. There were things I’d have to pay attention to sometimes, but I think those things could just as easily be present without the trinity. Most of the time I’d just relax, press some keybindings, and things would die.

For anyone who wants trinity, there are so many games that already do it, and do it well enough for them to come here and rave about the trinity. I don’t see why anyone would want it amended into a game that historically has never wanted to go that route – a game some have disliked for that very reason.

All that said, I really don’t see GW2 as perfection incarnate or anything, but trinity? nah. I may not think the game is perfect, but I am able to enjoy it just fine. I think there are big changes that could be done to make it better, but not trinity. I’d rather see them try other things, like re-evaluate the combo system and beef up fights (especially world fights) with new abilities that challenge folks (let’s face it, most bosses are loot/exp/karma pinatas at the moment).

I have mixed feelings regarding the trinity, I enjoy GW2 combat but I do miss healer/tank style gameplay on occasion. I think it would be fun if there was a dungeon (or Raid)that let two players “tank” and “off tank” in a Golem, and a couple of players can equip a wrench or Asuran ranged repair gun (like a welder). It could still be done without changing the way the game works.

I just don’t like Defiance stacks, they remove the trinity but then punish tactical gameplay. Seems like poor design there

I’ve seen threads every now and then that talk about the trinity and I struggle as to whether or not this game would be better with it. That obviously doesn’t matter because we’re never going to get the trinity. I think what is really missing from this game for me is more defined roles within a party. I don’t think we need to have a trinity if someone wants to be a damage sponge or if someone wants to be a healer. Why is it you can completely kitten your dps output to take healing power, but all of your heals go up by about 1,000 more hp healed? Hardly seems fair for all that damage you lose.

Elthurien.8356:

I just don’t like Defiance stacks, they remove the trinity but then punish tactical gameplay. Seems like poor design there

The thing with defiance is that it seems it was introduced to stop us keeping bosses stunned. However, i think it was done in a very bad way. It would be better if you gain stacks each CC used and it reduces the effectiveness while being on a timer for them to disappear. This would make CC more useful without resulting in perma-stunning bosses.

Glovebox.5724:

Why do people insist on a trinity?

Because a lot of people don’t want to play Guild Wars 2. They want to play a copy of their first online world, often without even realizing it themselves. Requests for a trinity are only one step in asking for said copy, but it would not be enough. Those asking for a trinity are the same asking for raids, mounts, a change to the reward system, and so on and so on.

Ironically, if ArenaNet gave them everything they are asking for… Those players would still leave. They will never, ever, find the perfect clone they are looking for. This is very easy to see, considering how traditional MMORPGs have been failing over and over – take a look at The Old Republic, Tera, Aion, more recently Rift, and so on and so on. All games with the trinity, all games with mounts and raids, and all games that went free to play because they couldn’t keep enough subscribers.

This is what happens when you build your game for players who don’t want to play your game. ArenaNet has been making this mistake since before release, but it got worse after the introduction of Ascended gear and Fractals of the Mists. I wouldn’t be surprised if they introduced a Holy Trinity in the game, considering how desperate they are in trying to cater to players of classic MMOs. Too bad the game those players want isn’t GW2.

sinzer.4018:

Elthurien.8356:

I just don’t like Defiance stacks, they remove the trinity but then punish tactical gameplay. Seems like poor design there

The thing with defiance is that it seems it was introduced to stop us keeping bosses stunned. However, i think it was done in a very bad way. It would be better if you gain stacks each CC used and it reduces the effectiveness while being on a timer for them to disappear. This would make CC more useful without resulting in perma-stunning bosses.

That doesn’t matter. Defiant isn’t the problem. The issue is that no boss has anything worth interrupting. Even if Defiant didn’t exist, no one would bother using any kind of CC – why waste time with that, if it’s not needed anywhere, and it would still be faster to just kill the bosses?

The issue with GW2 isn’t the lack of a trinity. It’s poor PvE design. The concepts in the game are fine, they are simply badly implemented.

To be fair, they’re getting better. Each release is better than the last. This last release, while inciting a lot of emotions, was actually an amazingly well-done job on Arenanet’s part.

Sure, it could have been better (what can’t be?), but from a developer standpoint, they INCITED REAL EMOTIONS IN THEIR PLAYERS FROM A VIRTUAL WORLD. That’s pretty darn good, if you ask me.

sinzer.4018:

Elthurien.8356:

I just don’t like Defiance stacks, they remove the trinity but then punish tactical gameplay. Seems like poor design there

The thing with defiance is that it seems it was introduced to stop us keeping bosses stunned. However, i think it was done in a very bad way. It would be better if you gain stacks each CC used and it reduces the effectiveness while being on a timer for them to disappear. This would make CC more useful without resulting in perma-stunning bosses.

Yeah I understand why, I just think it could have been done better. Rather than having defiant stacks, allow the first CC to work and add immuniy after the fact for a specific duration. You could also add diminishing returns on the subsequent attacks of the same type if the immunity wasn’t enough. That way you can interrupt when it is required but chaining CC will be inneffective.

If this were the case then maybe the developers could actually give bosses something worth interrupting too

Defiance does prevent perma stun, but control classes aren’t really shafted at all in concept. I think the design concept of the control classes on bossfights was to make sure that either the boss gets moved around by force, or that the boss can’t even attack once. I don’t know if interrupts pass through defiant stacks, but if they don’t, I think that’s another oversight ANet probably has to fix, since there’s a difference between stun-locking and perma-interruption (where one is the constant uptime of control effects, providing passive bonuses to people with added effects on the application of stuns and the other the constant denial of an enemy to launch his attack).

Support classes, on the other hand, provide support either by pure healing, condition cleansing, and boon application, or stacking non-DoT effects on targets (cripple, chill, immobilize, poison, etc). The main issue people see is that they focus too much on the healing aspect, and not on the boon/cond cleanse aspect, as well as the application isn’t that really effective in most fights because of their simplistic design.

The other two types of combat classes become more favorable in quicker reaction fights and much more complex ones, as seen in the PvP scenario. If adaption was implemented in AI, then we could see classes that would find use again.

You’re forgetting one important thing – you can be DPS, support and control while wearing berserker gear. Nothing is stopping you from using CC, applying block or reflects by wearing zerk. That’s why everything looks like DPS – because they deal high damage while also filling other roles.
And about healing gear – please just stop. When the boss hits my 10-20k HP ele for over 5k your +50 regeneration health per tick or +250 AoE heal isn’t going to help. Everything scales terribly with healing power for the numbers that are thrown around in PvE even on ~3k armor.
Oh, I’d also like to mention that I’m not against the trinity. I usually like being a tank or dps.

Erasculio.2914:

Ironically, if ArenaNet gave them everything they are asking for… Those players would still leave. They will never, ever, find the perfect clone they are looking for. This is very easy to see, considering how traditional MMORPGs have been failing over and over – take a look at The Old Republic, Tera, Aion, more recently Rift, and so on and so on.

Ah, but is that really the case? Failure is relative. Sure, they failed to reach subscriber numbers like WoW had in its heyday. So what? While that might be a disappointment, it is not failure.

Development companies have more information than we do. I know it’s chic to say that moving to freemium or F2P from a P2 P model is a sign of failure, but is it? When Blizzard announces thakittens new MMO, Titan, is “unlikely to be a subscription-based MMO,” have we reached the point where developers are concluding that people will pay more to a cash shop than they will to rent the game?

Sure, the developers of those games would have been pleased if they had sub numbers like WoW akittens peak, but is that ever going to happen again? I don’t think so.

Freemium conversion or B2P could very well be recognition that a smaller customer base with options to spend more than a sub fee is more profitable than a sub fee where everything is expected to come with the rental fee.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ah, but is that really the case? Failure is relative. Sure, they failed to reach subscriber numbers like WoW had in its heyday. So what? While that might be a disappointment, it is not failure.

The reason why those games went free to play isn’t because they failed to get 12 million subscribers; it’s because they failed. EA stated that The Old Republic was a disappointment, in one of their quarterly reports, as the profits from the game were “not good enough”. Square Enix went in details about how much of a failure FF XIV was (and they even stated how another such failure would break them). Not to mention all the MMOs that not only tried to went Free to Play, but eventually closed and led the studio that was publishing them to bankrupt (The Chronicles of Spellborn, Fury, and so on; even the studio behind Amalur had a MMORPG as one of the reasons behind its messy fall).

Big companies continue making MMORPGs because they believe they, and only they, are special – everyone else has had a lot of issues, but the “It won’t ever happen to me!” mentality appears to be stronger. Well, they are wrong. The lesson Titan gives us, considering how Blizzard has moved a lot of its staff to other projects, is that even the mother of WoW is realizing how MMORPGs aren’t the best investiment they could have right now.

Glovebox.5724:

The so called ‘Holy Trinity’. Making combat dull.

I disagree.

Im…in the middle. When GW2 released, I despised the trinity. After playing some MMOs with it, some recent MMOs, I began to miss the trinity.

In most GW2 boss fights, its every man for themselves, dodge for yourself, heal yourself and revive the ocassional downer. Chaotic and self serving until someone goes down.

The trinity provides more of a group collaboration.

Not sure where I stand on this.

cesmode.4257:

In most GW2 boss fights, its every man for themselves, dodge for yourself, heal yourself and revive the ocassional downer. Chaotic and self serving until someone goes down.

When fighting Kholer, though, a Guardian applying area Stability can prevent the entire party from having to dodge in order to avoid the boss’ pull. In the Underground Facility Fractal boss, you need to coordinate your party to have pullers and someone pressing the levers, plus having someone to interrupt the heals, and a mesmer with Feedback really helps. Even the CoF1 speed run requires some coordination between players.

The issue, IMO, isn’t that GW2 lacks the Trinity – that’s not needed. The issue is that a lot of the PvE design in the game is poor.

I see a lot more teamwork and coordination in GW2. It’s a lot less reliant on one or two people and more reliant on the party as a whole, unless you’re running something like CoF, as opposed to high level Fractals or guild runs.

I think I like the emphasis on “Rely on yourself” in GW2, it’s just the dodge mechanic is the same across all classes, and can get quite boring.

What about some alternate uses Endurance? How about instead of just dodge, we can choose a:

Sprint: Drain endurance to move a short distance at great speed, does not evade or reduce damage taken.
Deflect. Same as dodge but easier to use. Reduce damage taken by 75%
Block: Same as Deflect but usable with shield and reduce by an extra 5% (80%DR)
Counterattack: Reduce damage taken by only 50% but retaliate with an attack.

I don’t know… I just feel like a few more options would make the system more interesting/engaging.

You could always block if you’re not fully confident in your timing, but a person who dodges at the right moment yields a higher reward. Having sprint would just be a neat alternative if you need to chase someone down or flee. Counterattack for the lulz.

I’ve never been a fan of the trinity. Then again, I’ve never played a game with the trinity.

Th closest thing I played was City of Heroes, which had a 4-base syste3m of melee, range, support, and control. In that game, having enough of one usually meant that you could blow past nearly any challenge that came by. High enough damage and you could obliterate enemies before they were a threat. High enough durability and they could pound on you all day. High enough support and you make everyone else have incredibly high damage or incredibly high durability or heal away their damage. Have enough control, and you can shut down masses of enemies without taking a single hit.

Best part is, you could build for multiple things at once. My strongest character in CoH was a control/support toon. I figured out how to give them high defense and damage, and then suddenly he’s soloing some of the toughest bosses in the game. The hardest content in the game wasn’t about how much damage you had, but how much support you had. Teams that were just pure tank and DPS did neither effectively.

The whole trinity design just seems limiting and lazy. It is like they made a real time RPG, but couldn’t figure out how to deal with classes that have different focuses and roles in a multiplayer environment, so they decided to give enemies an aggro system and then give players the ability to abuse the aggro system in the worst way possible. When you are fighting the great tenebrous lord of evil darkness, he’s not going to be stupid enough to chase after the most armored, durable, and least threatening member of your party like a cat after a laser pointer. No, he’s either going to go after the player who is the most threatening, or he is going to go after the healer or support linchpin that holds your team together. But instead a gigantic monster spends all its time fighting what is essentially a gigantic shield, while other players who might as well not be wearing “armor” at all sneak behind him and poke him with a 5000 lbs sword.

Worst part is, by making some classes so much more durable than others, they now have to balance content around the fact that you’ll have a gigantic shield and a heal bot behind him, and thus they limit diversity and gameplay in this manner. As more content is added, they keep making the enemies stronger, and the tanks tankier. It isn’t tactical, it is stupid. It might as well be a game of spreadsheets at that point.

Something I’d like to see a lot more of is better AI and class design that isn’t just a scale between how durable you are and how much damage you do. The guys who draw aggro shouldn’t do it because they have some arbitrary provocation mechanic built into their class, but because not fighting them first would be suicide. I think in one of the many iterations of D&D, there was a positioning mechanic where if you ran by a warrior, they could strike you in the back for twice the damage. Because of this, you didn’t run by warriors. Putting something like this in a game makes sense, and provides deeper play.

Something else I’d like to see in a game is an intelligence based ranking system for enemies, broken up into 3 different categories:

Low intelligence: These are primitive enemies who attack based on presence and whomever is closest.

Medium intelligence: these guys start with presence, but quickly adapt and concentrate on the damage dealers, then the support roles.

High intelligence: these guys analyze your group composition before the fight begins, and instantly go after the healing and support players, as well as the squishier and less defensive players. If there is a weakness, they will find it and know it beforehand.

This would be intelligent game design, and it would add a layer of difficulty not reflected in mere stats and numbers. You’d have to make your class with forethought in mind, since building entirely to heal and nothing else will get you mercilessly slaughtered by the first high-intelligence enemy you find. The way a battle unfolds will depend greatly on the intelligence of the enemy or the skills present. You have to think about what is happening, instead of doing the same tank and spank for every encounter ever.

in GW2, mobs have varying intelligence, with some mobs targetting based on certain stats (in addition to normal targeting mechanics) and others just hit whoever is closest.

An example is Lupicus, who will go after one person but will attack anyone (with his Lupine Bolt, aka PB). In his final phase, he will typically drain one target (but he may swap occasionally) and chase after one target. He will cast on anyone in melee range if they come close during an opportune moment, but other than that, he’s actually just a tank and spank boss.

they have to design bosses like that or else what would happen is you’d have boss fights where all they do is ping pong across the map chasing different people. The idea is nice, but besides locking everyone in a very small space where they couldn’t just kite the entire time, the execution would look awkward.