Guild Wars 2

knightblaster.7420:

It’s a pretty fundamental philosophical/design difference.

WildStar has been envisioned from the beginning as being a game that was trying to feature the kind of difficulty that existed in MMOs (even the leveling game) prior to WoW’s expansions. The concept was to create a game that was, from the very beginning of it, tailored to meet the needs and desires of the most hardcore, high-skill-cap players in the MMO community — a group which often feels like its needs are overlooked in MMOs these days. So, WildStar from soup to nuts is catering to the most intense, hardcore, high skill gamer — that’s it’s own niche. I think it will be successful in that niche, but there are many other players who play MMOs these days who are moderately skilled at best and are not hardcore — they will be punished by WildStar’s design, and will not find it rewarding --> and, that’s okay because they are not WildStar’s target audience. The most hardcore, skill-cap oriented players are what they are going for.

GW2 has a completely different philosophy behind it — the idea here was to appeal primarily to the casual gamer by eschewing (for the most part) endgame progression gear treadmills, locking substantial content up in parts of the game reserved for high skill-cap or high time-cap players, and so on. It’s a design that, from the get-go, was certainly destined to alienate the hardcore, high skill cap contingent of the MMO community, precisely because the entire design here is not something that revolves around their needs, but rather the more average, moderate skill, casual player who wants to play for a bit, have some fun, have easy seamless grouping, good QoL features and so on, and then log off, without feeling pressured to do anything in particular to keep up with everyone and mot be left behind the curve and become a social laughingstock in a video game.

So, as far as I can tell, you can’t really get two games that are more philosophically dissimilar than GW2 and WildStar. Almost 180 degrees different in philosophy and intended audience.

wow…….
nicely written, good descriptions….
i wish my english as fluent as your’s =((

Phadde.7362:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

GW2 is different than Wildstar, because GW2 is an ultra-casual, “everyone wins” sort of game. Hence, why nothing is instanced and blob play is so rewarded. No one gets their feelings hurt and no ones performance is scrutinized in a blob.

It’s why this community is so against things like duels and damage meters.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not for me.

Implementing some difficult content isn’t really affecting the ordinary casual player(?) no more than high level fractals currently are. Why not add content that provides a good active challenge for the portion of the playerbase that wants it (or longs for it)?

I can’t recall hearing anyone say that adding difficult content would be bad for the game =)

In theory it doesn’t impact the other players, but normally the higher skilled players don’t feel rewarded by this kind of content unless they are given gear/abilities that separate them statistically (not just aesthetically) from other, lower skilled players — they will say “there is no reason to do that, I don’t like just aesthetic rewards, we should have the best gear because we have the most skills” and so on. To a very limited degree this was done with Ascended gear, but it was pretty limited in terms of the impact. And of course it created a storm when they did it (eventually that passed). In theory they could do something like that again, but I think they are reluctant to create another tier of gear beyond Ascended at this point.

So, yes they could create this kind of content and have aesthetic rewards — but I don’t think that aesthetic rewards are generally very satisfying to the kinds of players that you would be trying to reach with that content to begin with.

knightblaster.7420:

Phadde.7362:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

GW2 is different than Wildstar, because GW2 is an ultra-casual, “everyone wins” sort of game. Hence, why nothing is instanced and blob play is so rewarded. No one gets their feelings hurt and no ones performance is scrutinized in a blob.

It’s why this community is so against things like duels and damage meters.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not for me.

Implementing some difficult content isn’t really affecting the ordinary casual player(?) no more than high level fractals currently are. Why not add content that provides a good active challenge for the portion of the playerbase that wants it (or longs for it)?

I can’t recall hearing anyone say that adding difficult content would be bad for the game =)

In theory it doesn’t impact the other players, but normally the higher skilled players don’t feel rewarded by this kind of content unless they are given gear/abilities that separate them statistically (not just aesthetically) from other, lower skilled players — they will say “there is no reason to do that, I don’t like just aesthetic rewards, we should have the best gear because we have the most skills” and so on. To a very limited degree this was done with Ascended gear, but it was pretty limited in terms of the impact. And of course it created a storm when they did it (eventually that passed). In theory they could do something like that again, but I think they are reluctant to create another tier of gear beyond Ascended at this point.

So, yes they could create this kind of content and have aesthetic rewards — but I don’t think that aesthetic rewards are generally very satisfying to the kinds of players that you would be trying to reach with that content to begin with.

thanks god that this game favor casuals over hard cores,i hate elitism, remind of a game called rift, they have time to raid 4-5 nights a week and spending 5-6 hours at least on raiding and when they were in those bis gear they were like look at us we are so awesome" cough lifeless nerds cough" . eventually rift became half dead game with low population of loyal fans and newbies messing around and leaving eventually because the game is free.
this game has solid population and well comes every one even hard cores can go after legendary weapon.

saye.9304:

knightblaster.7420:

Phadde.7362:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

GW2 is different than Wildstar, because GW2 is an ultra-casual, “everyone wins” sort of game. Hence, why nothing is instanced and blob play is so rewarded. No one gets their feelings hurt and no ones performance is scrutinized in a blob.

It’s why this community is so against things like duels and damage meters.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not for me.

Implementing some difficult content isn’t really affecting the ordinary casual player(?) no more than high level fractals currently are. Why not add content that provides a good active challenge for the portion of the playerbase that wants it (or longs for it)?

I can’t recall hearing anyone say that adding difficult content would be bad for the game =)

In theory it doesn’t impact the other players, but normally the higher skilled players don’t feel rewarded by this kind of content unless they are given gear/abilities that separate them statistically (not just aesthetically) from other, lower skilled players — they will say “there is no reason to do that, I don’t like just aesthetic rewards, we should have the best gear because we have the most skills” and so on. To a very limited degree this was done with Ascended gear, but it was pretty limited in terms of the impact. And of course it created a storm when they did it (eventually that passed). In theory they could do something like that again, but I think they are reluctant to create another tier of gear beyond Ascended at this point.

So, yes they could create this kind of content and have aesthetic rewards — but I don’t think that aesthetic rewards are generally very satisfying to the kinds of players that you would be trying to reach with that content to begin with.

thanks god that this game favor casuals over hard cores,i hate elitism, remind of a game called rift, they have time to raid 4-5 nights a week and spending 5-6 hours at least on raiding and when they were in those bis gear they were like look at us we are so awesome" cough lifeless nerds cough" . eventually rift became half dead game with low population of loyal fans and newbies messing around and leaving eventually because the game is free.
this game has solid population and well comes every one even hard cores can go after legendary weapon.

It’s possible to challenge yourself and still have fun. And there is nothing wrong with wanting more depth and challenge than 1 button spamming blob play.

Been in Wildstar beta for a while, have 2 deluxe copies pre-purchased. My guild has also bought copies and have been in beta as well.

We’ve exhausted content in GW2, I don’t know how long ago. We are PvX players (originally from DAoC), so at the moment the draw here is WvW. Unfortunately, other than Wexp (April 15th patch) and EotM (which most WvWer’s do not consider a real WvW map), have been the only updates in basically 2 years. We’ve done explorables ad nauseam with 4 of us. Ditto fractals. Have 2 characters in ascended, 2 more halfway outfitted in ascended, 26 level 80s in a minimum of exotic. And yes, done with personal stories through Zhaitan on several characters, although once through that was enough.

Having said all that, here’s is a snippet of a post I left on a thread out here regarding Wildstar, Housing and GW2:

Don’t like Wildstar’s graphics. Don’t like Wildstar’s overwhelming use of quests as rewards for quests. The combat is fantastic. The lack of weapon choice not so much. It’s like a hyped up world on super-sugared koolaid.

Love the humor.

The housing is just over the top… each character, not account mind you, each character can have their own house. Complete with bonus buffs.

I’m looking forward to playing Wildstar for PvE (in small doses) and staying with GW2 for WvW. If WvW goes downhill after Tournament…

….well, perhaps I’ll just need to permanently change worlds and invest in real estate. I hear Koolaid is an acquired taste. (shudder)

So there you have it.

I will play GW2 for WvW until it decays from lack of attention or ANet makes another ill-conceived ’intuitive" change to the system, leaving it worse off. OR until CU releases.

I will play Wildstar for the PvE challenge. And happily pay subscription for 2 accounts. It’s the business model I prefer.

I’d rather remain with GW2 for all of my play, but the game (which I do not consider an MMO), and the developer’s decisions / implementations over the last 2 years have clearly demonstrated I am not a customer they care to delight.

In Wildstar closed beta, was sailing through the lowbie zone doing quests (humorous artwork, some humor in the quests themselves bringing back memories of WoW at first release) when I found myself in combat with a mob with 20x the hp of those around it. Did not adapt quickly and it wiped the floor with me.

Assumed this was like the elites which wander a few of the lowbie zones in WoW classic, an intelligence test for awareness of what’s around you and avoiding elites.

Then, as I became more accustomed to Wildstar combat, I was able to solo one of those mobs. That’s when it hit me: Wildstar, like GW2, is very much about individual skill, evasive movement, knowing one’s toolbox and using it creatively. And that Wildstar has outdone GW2 in this space.

GW2, in turn, is trying to bring in these annoying large drill-team encounters, reminiscent of WoW and RIFT raiding, but using the (surprisingly limited) capacity of a zone rather than an instanced-raid-size cap. I think this is a fundamental blunder on Anet’s part, because it’s trying to bring in a playstyle that fits the gear-centric WoW/RIFT game fundamentals, rather than the player-skill-centric GW2 fundamentals. At least Anet didn’t import the guild/social-fabric shredding aspects of WoW and RIFT raiding, although Tournament is doing exactly that between GW2’s worlds.

Back to the point at hand: GW2 has an awesomely better world, and far more beautiful artwork, than Wildstar will ever have. If GW2 evolved bringing more solo or small scale player skill challenges, and evolved making spec and gear choices richer rather than “simplifying them for the Asian market” as RIFT did, it would play to GW2’s strengths and provide content for the higher skill players… particularly if the rewards were commensurate.

bewhatever’s post has carefully identified some of the issues that I and my guildmates have. Good analysis.

bewhatever.2390:

In Wildstar closed beta, was sailing through the lowbie zone doing quests (humorous artwork, some humor in the quests themselves bringing back memories of WoW at first release) when I found myself in combat with a mob with 20x the hp of those around it. Did not adapt quickly and it wiped the floor with me.

Assumed this was like the elites which wander a few of the lowbie zones in WoW classic, an intelligence test for awareness of what’s around you and avoiding elites.

Then, as I became more accustomed to Wildstar combat, I was able to solo one of those mobs. That’s when it hit me: Wildstar, like GW2, is very much about individual skill, evasive movement, knowing one’s toolbox and using it creatively. And that Wildstar has outdone GW2 in this space.

GW2, in turn, is trying to bring in these annoying large drill-team encounters, reminiscent of WoW and RIFT raiding, but using the (surprisingly limited) capacity of a zone rather than an instanced-raid-size cap. I think this is a fundamental blunder on Anet’s part, because it’s trying to bring in a playstyle that fits the gear-centric WoW/RIFT game fundamentals, rather than the player-skill-centric GW2 fundamentals. At least Anet didn’t import the guild/social-fabric shredding aspects of WoW and RIFT raiding, although Tournament is doing exactly that between GW2’s worlds.

Back to the point at hand: GW2 has an awesomely better world, and far more beautiful artwork, than Wildstar will ever have. If GW2 evolved bringing more solo or small scale player skill challenges, and evolved making spec and gear choices richer rather than “simplifying them for the Asian market” as RIFT did, it would play to GW2’s strengths and provide content for the higher skill players… particularly if the rewards were commensurate.

totally agree with you mate, gw2 can remain one of the best mmos around with solid population and financially successful for years to come if they stay faithful to what they promised and to their manifesto and also listen to players and fix/change some of stuff and improve their communication with players. their silence right now on state of the game is stepping toward wrong direction i hope they realize and get back on track.

Well, the thread will probably get shut down soon if people keep insisting to avoid the actual topic by making this a Wildstar discussion-thread.

Though my edit on the original post would do the job…

Phadde.7362:

Well, the thread will probably get shut down soon if people keep insisting to avoid the actual topic by making this a Wildstar discussion-thread.

Though my edit on the original post would do the job…

I’m not sure why you expected it to become anything else.

goldenwing.8473:

saye.9304:

bewhatever.2390:

Wetpaw.3487:

Serophous.9085:

saalle.4623:

Trevos.6473:

Doggie.3184:

Phadde.7362:

>>>Edit: THIS IS NOT A Gw2 vs Wildstar Thread.<<<
>>>Read this post before replying to the thread!!<<<

…. This is not supposed to be a praise to WS, it’s supposed to draw attention to what probably a lot of people miss in Gw2: Actual actively challenging content…

…(please keep on topic and be reasonable)

I am also trying the open beta of Wildstar and I am pretty much sold on it. I do not know if its worth it to compare the lack of challenge of GW2 combat to wildstar combat. Remember, with no trinity, there is also no reason to complain about lack of taunts, heals, etc. which automatically add towards the depth of the fight. GW2 just aint the place to look for this stuff. The actual problem which makes people even try new MMOs is simply lack of content. I think we can all agree that an expansion is long overdue, that being said, people jump ship…sadly, me included.

cmud.5689:

I am also trying the open beta of Wildstar and I am pretty much sold on it. I do not know if its worth it to compare the lack of challenge of GW2 combat to wildstar combat. Remember, with no trinity, there is also no reason to complain about lack of taunts, heals, etc. which automatically add towards the depth of the fight. GW2 just aint the place to look for this stuff. The actual problem which makes people even try new MMOs is simply lack of content. I think we can all agree that an expansion is long overdue, that being said, people jump ship…sadly, me included.

good for youu.. goodbye and have fun on wildstar.. were just here having fun..

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

gianz.2513:

cmud.5689:

I am also trying the open beta of Wildstar and I am pretty much sold on it. I do not know if its worth it to compare the lack of challenge of GW2 combat to wildstar combat. Remember, with no trinity, there is also no reason to complain about lack of taunts, heals, etc. which automatically add towards the depth of the fight. GW2 just aint the place to look for this stuff. The actual problem which makes people even try new MMOs is simply lack of content. I think we can all agree that an expansion is long overdue, that being said, people jump ship…sadly, me included.

good for youu.. goodbye and have fun on wildstar.. were just here having fun..

I am honestly happy for you, and of course for the community you are speaking for. Oh wait…

Phadde.7362:

bewhatever.2390:

Phadde.7362:

>>>Edit: THIS IS NOT A Gw2 vs Wildstar Thread.<<<
>>>Read this post before replying to the thread!!<<<

…. This is not supposed to be a praise to WS, it’s supposed to draw attention to what probably a lot of people miss in Gw2: Actual actively challenging content…

…(please keep on topic and be reasonable)

…Phadde, my point was describing the kind of challenge I think GW2 could and should include, exactly in line with your original post. Understanding the customer experience is essential to doing this right; a dry discussion of game mechanics is insufficient guidance for the people calling the shots at Anet.

Phadde.7362:

goldenwing.8473:

saye.9304:

bewhatever.2390:

Wetpaw.3487:

Serophous.9085:

saalle.4623:

Trevos.6473:

Doggie.3184:

Phadde.7362:

>>>Edit: THIS IS NOT A Gw2 vs Wildstar Thread.<<<
>>>Read this post before replying to the thread!!<<<

…. This is not supposed to be a praise to WS, it’s supposed to draw attention to what probably a lot of people miss in Gw2: Actual actively challenging content…

…(please keep on topic and be reasonable)

Listing the pros and cons just to help me layout an answer to your topic, edited post to better suit your results. But I can say their is a hell of a lot more missing in GW2 to fulfill that enjoyment your missing then just challenging content.

goldenwing.8473:

Been in Wildstar beta for a while, have 2 deluxe copies pre-purchased. My guild has also bought copies and have been in beta as well.

We’ve exhausted content in GW2, I don’t know how long ago. We are PvX players (originally from DAoC), so at the moment the draw here is WvW. Unfortunately, other than Wexp (April 15th patch) and EotM (which most WvWer’s do not consider a real WvW map), have been the only updates in basically 2 years. We’ve done explorables ad nauseam with 4 of us. Ditto fractals. Have 2 characters in ascended, 2 more halfway outfitted in ascended, 26 level 80s in a minimum of exotic. And yes, done with personal stories through Zhaitan on several characters, although once through that was enough.

Having said all that, here’s is a snippet of a post I left on a thread out here regarding Wildstar, Housing and GW2:

Don’t like Wildstar’s graphics. Don’t like Wildstar’s overwhelming use of quests as rewards for quests. The combat is fantastic. The lack of weapon choice not so much. It’s like a hyped up world on super-sugared koolaid.

Love the humor.

The housing is just over the top… each character, not account mind you, each character can have their own house. Complete with bonus buffs.

I’m looking forward to playing Wildstar for PvE (in small doses) and staying with GW2 for WvW. If WvW goes downhill after Tournament…

….well, perhaps I’ll just need to permanently change worlds and invest in real estate. I hear Koolaid is an acquired taste. (shudder)

So there you have it.

I will play GW2 for WvW until it decays from lack of attention or ANet makes another ill-conceived ’intuitive" change to the system, leaving it worse off. OR until CU releases.

I will play Wildstar for the PvE challenge. And happily pay subscription for 2 accounts. It’s the business model I prefer.

I’d rather remain with GW2 for all of my play, but the game (which I do not consider an MMO), and the developer’s decisions / implementations over the last 2 years have clearly demonstrated I am not a customer they care to delight.

You absolutely nailed it with this post when it comes to how I and the guild I came here with play this game, feel about it, and future endeavors in WS.

Phadde:

I was taught over 40+ years ago to look at both sides when analyzing / comparing for both pro and con.

I’ve done that.

And I’ve included my customer experience. Something that ANet tends to ignore which is rather perplexing in a genre that is basically in the entertainment field.

ANet is very good at looking a technical details. Usually for their own internal purposes. Losing sight of their customers’ emotional reactions to their game and the changes they create does not make sense in a world where almost all of the decisions that the human race makes are in the end, emotional.

There are things that GW2 does exceptionally well. Lack of trinity, lack of gear-centric endgame, and the beautiful artwork.

There are things missing: explorable and replayable permanent additions of content.

And challenging PvE content.

And not limited to just those two.

You opened the thread up yourself making the comparison. If you wanted to only provide feedback to ANet (which most of us have been doing since before release on multiple forums), then it might have been wiser to have a generic discussion without inviting a comparison to a specific competing game.

knightblaster.7420:

It’s a design that, from the get-go, was certainly destined to alienate the hardcore, high skill cap contingent of the MMO community

I know this conversation is primarily directed at PvE content however this is exactly why sPvP became so stagnant to the point where Anet had to essentially PvE-ize it with pve oriented rewards to get people to have interest in it again and it was quite successful in that regard with bringing in more people. The crowd of people they initially tried to target with sPvP/eSports community have no interest in the mindless 1 spamming the other 99.9% the game represents and PvP balancing that is far too influenced by that kind of PvE environment which is why you saw so many top teams/players leave the game. A perfect example of this is the official MLG streams of GW2 Tournaments when during the first part of the NA Tournament you had around 1200-1800 people only viewing. The game simply doesn’t appeal to that crowd despite the time, resources, and money they spend trying to specifically target them.

goldenwing.8473:

Phadde:

I was taught over 40+ years ago to look at both sides when analyzing / comparing for both pro and con.

I’ve done that.

And I’ve included my customer experience. Something that ANet tends to ignore which is rather perplexing in a genre that is basically in the entertainment field.

ANet is very good at looking a technical details. Usually for their own internal purposes. Losing sight of their customers’ emotional reactions to their game and the changes they create does not make sense in a world where almost all of the decisions that the human race makes are in the end, emotional.

There are things that GW2 does exceptionally well. Lack of trinity, lack of gear-centric endgame, and the beautiful artwork.

There are things missing: explorable and replayable permanent additions of content.

And challenging PvE content.

And not limited to just those two.

You opened the thread up yourself making the comparison. If you wanted to only provide feedback to ANet (which most of us have been doing since before release on multiple forums), then it might have been wiser to have a generic discussion without inviting a comparison to a specific competing game.

Stop it Goldenwing. I’m getting carpal tunnel from +1ing your posts. :/

I couldn’t agree more on ANet’s strengths and weaknesses. Overcoming challenge is an important aspect of the psychology of fun. ANet has many times made game decisions and communication decisions that a good psychologist on staff would have advised against.

Disastro.4086:

knightblaster.7420:

It’s a design that, from the get-go, was certainly destined to alienate the hardcore, high skill cap contingent of the MMO community

I know this conversation is primarily directed at PvE content however this is exactly why sPvP became so stagnant to the point where Anet had to essentially PvE-ize it with pve oriented rewards to get people to have interest it again and it was quite successful in that regard with bringing in more people. The crowd of people they initially tried to target with sPvP/eSports community have no interest in the mindless 1 spamming the other 99.9% the game represents and pvp balancing that is far to influenced by that kind of PvE environment which is why you saw so many top teams/players leave the game. A perfect example of this is the official MLG streams of GW2 Tournaments when during the first part of the NA Tournament you had around 1200-1800 people only viewing. The game simply doesn’t appeal to that crowd despite the time, resources, and money they spend trying to specifically target them.

Yes, it was kind of silly to expect that the PvP would be attractive to the high skill cap/eSports community. That’s virtually impossible to do in a game that is fundamentally oriented towards casual players in every other aspect. These are two different species of gamers — almost from two completely different planets, different worlds. They have nothing at all in common with each other whatsoever.

knightblaster.7420:

These are two different species of gamers — almost from two completely different planets, different worlds. They have nothing at all in common with each other whatsoever.

Well I’m not so sure I would go as far as to say nothing. I primarily play in sPvP/WvW(wvw being my primary interest coming from a very long DAoC RvR background) and occasionally enjoy other aspects of the game. I personally enjoyed the new Tequatl fight, Wurms, Marionette, and fractals are occasionally enjoyable but not worth mindlessly doing over and over. I also found Living story to be some what entertaining all be it I feel like the majority of Scarlet’s story arc was poorly written or written by someone who specialized in children’s books. People like myself are a minority with in a minority and you simply can’t market to a group that small and expect to be successful.

Started that beta today. I’m finding it, after nearly 1 1/2 in GW2, overly complex. I’m getting lost to easily in the Tutorial and why do I first have to enter the game before I customize the keyboard. And I haven’t found mouse sensitivity anywhere. Trying to mouse look causes me to spin the camera around 5 times, which helps getting me lost.

Maybe it’ll be better once I’m on the planet.

But GW2 was incredibly easy to learn the controls And the simplified interface is a blessing.

Behellagh.1468:

Started that beta today. I’m finding it, after nearly 1 1/2 in GW2, overly complex. I’m getting lost to easily in the Tutorial and why do I first have to enter the game before I customize the keyboard. And I haven’t found mouse sensitivity anywhere. Trying to mouse look causes me to spin the camera around 5 times, which helps getting me lost.

Maybe it’ll be better once I’m on the planet.

But GW2 was incredibly easy to learn the controls And the simplified interface is a blessing.

Stick with it. It’s worth it.

I think most players simply choose not to participate in the more difficult, or challenging content in Guild Wars 2. They may decide the challenge, or time spent doing the content, is not worth the reward when they can get close to the same amount doing faster or easier content. An example of this would be not many players choosing to do the aetherblade path of TA, and instead do the speed runs in CoF, or AC. I would consider the Triple Threat wurm a challenge now, but the challenging part is having players communicate and cooperate, and is based less on their skill in game to complete that event.

Of course the game still has plenty of room to grow, and I look forward to more challenging content. I remember the first time I stepped into all the dungeons, and was glad to experience how hard it was to complete them. I’d like to see more content like that in the future.

Wildstar to me seems to be a mash up of all the popular MMOs out to date. I keep coming back to Gw2 though. MMOs like anything are very subjective. I played Eve for 3 years, most people shutter at the thought.

Phadde.7362:

Corpus Christi.2057:

I totally agree with knightblaster.

Me too, it was well written.

But why can’t Gw2 have some content that caters to that other crowd as well? I’m not suggesting that they are to change anything fundamentally, just add content that provides active, on the fly challenges.

I remember Guild Wars 2 used to be tougher and more active, but it seems that’s changed over the years.

I disagree with the notion that it was meant for ‘casual’ as in low-skill people. Challenging content is engaging and fun. Level caps on areas was supposed to ensure you couldn’t completely outlevel and curbstomp an area so that it would always be a threat. Just because Guild Wars 2 tried to forego the loot treadmill didn’t mean they wanted to make the game ‘easier’ – after all, loot treadmills are generally the ‘easiest’ games around, because you need to be able to farm loot quickly and efficiently, with each tier of gear making your character outclass enemies even more. And, they tend to be based on how often you bounce yourself off the wall, instead of how hard you try to bounce off.

“Horrible tutorial, starting zones and generic mmo quests.”

I havne’t played any of the starting zones for moths, I couldn’t care less about the events, I already have 100%, and I couldn’t care any less for the story line of this game.

I play for epic battles and fights.

goldenwing.8473:

Phadde:

I was taught over 40+ years ago to look at both sides when analyzing / comparing for both pro and con.

I’ve done that.

And I’ve included my customer experience. Something that ANet tends to ignore which is rather perplexing in a genre that is basically in the entertainment field.

ANet is very good at looking a technical details. Usually for their own internal purposes. Losing sight of their customers’ emotional reactions to their game and the changes they create does not make sense in a world where almost all of the decisions that the human race makes are in the end, emotional.

There are things that GW2 does exceptionally well. Lack of trinity, lack of gear-centric endgame, and the beautiful artwork.

There are things missing: explorable and replayable permanent additions of content.

And challenging PvE content.

And not limited to just those two.

You opened the thread up yourself making the comparison. If you wanted to only provide feedback to ANet (which most of us have been doing since before release on multiple forums), then it might have been wiser to have a generic discussion without inviting a comparison to a specific competing game.

Well spoken. I’m just (desperately) attempting to keep the thread on topic and prevent it from being locked.

A general discussion between Wildstar and Gw2 is a good idea!
But this is not the topic of this thread. If anyone wish to have a topic where you compare the two games in a much broader sense, then start one!

knightblaster.7420:

Phadde.7362:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

GW2 is different than Wildstar, because GW2 is an ultra-casual, “everyone wins” sort of game. Hence, why nothing is instanced and blob play is so rewarded. No one gets their feelings hurt and no ones performance is scrutinized in a blob.

It’s why this community is so against things like duels and damage meters.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not for me.

Implementing some difficult content isn’t really affecting the ordinary casual player(?) no more than high level fractals currently are. Why not add content that provides a good active challenge for the portion of the playerbase that wants it (or longs for it)?

I can’t recall hearing anyone say that adding difficult content would be bad for the game =)

In theory it doesn’t impact the other players, but normally the higher skilled players don’t feel rewarded by this kind of content unless they are given gear/abilities that separate them statistically (not just aesthetically) from other, lower skilled players — they will say “there is no reason to do that, I don’t like just aesthetic rewards, we should have the best gear because we have the most skills” and so on. To a very limited degree this was done with Ascended gear, but it was pretty limited in terms of the impact. And of course it created a storm when they did it (eventually that passed). In theory they could do something like that again, but I think they are reluctant to create another tier of gear beyond Ascended at this point.

So, yes they could create this kind of content and have aesthetic rewards — but I don’t think that aesthetic rewards are generally very satisfying to the kinds of players that you would be trying to reach with that content to begin with.

Ah yes.. giving the best gear to the people who need it least. Real hardcore players wear Whites, and still wipe the floor with everyone else.

Anyway… I’m glad Guild Wars 2 isn’t Build Wars 2 instead. I’d rather see more enemy diversity (Possibly with enemies with multiple types of special attacks), new weapon types, a more dynamic AI, and possibly greater variation (But not power) in stat spreads for gear. Not a loot treadmill.

How is “Build Wars” bad?

Nick.6972:

How is “Build Wars” bad?

Because it’s about preparing to have fun (Tinkering with builds, waiting to get the exact item you want to complete your stats), instead of actually having fun.

Almost all mobs in GW1 ran different skills, I had fun theorizing and making different builds for each map and mission. I’m not even mentioning PvP.
I fail to see zerging, auto attack spamming and/or stacking being more fun.

Corpus Christi.2057:

I totally agree with knightblaster.

Again, just look at probably the most hyped about MMO game that is soon to come out, ArcheAge. The game is created by original Lineage creators. And I’ve got to tell you this: Lineage was the most complete, the most complex, original and the most demanding MMO I have ever played. Still my No. 1.

We will see what the market brings in the nearest future. The simplicity of GW2’s one of the issues I have with the game, unfortunately.

You sure about that? Ive never even heard of ArcheAge…

Behellagh.1468:

Started that beta today. I’m finding it, after nearly 1 1/2 in GW2, overly complex. I’m getting lost to easily in the Tutorial and why do I first have to enter the game before I customize the keyboard. And I haven’t found mouse sensitivity anywhere. Trying to mouse look causes me to spin the camera around 5 times, which helps getting me lost.

Maybe it’ll be better once I’m on the planet.

But GW2 was incredibly easy to learn the controls And the simplified interface is a blessing.

The controls are poorly designed, in my opinion. It plays much better with a few addons — one which allows you to bind attacks to your main mouse buttons so that you aren’t playing twister with the fingers of your left hand, and another one that allows you to lock mouselook. These, taken together, allow you to use WASD to move, and the mouse to steer and use your main attacks without removing your finger from WASD. Makes the game play much more smoothly. I’m surprised that the default controls are what they are — it makes little sense for the game, given how it plays (at least one thing that ESO got right in terms of the default contols).

Phadde.7362:

Well spoken. I’m just (desperately) attempting to keep the thread on topic and prevent it from being locked.

A general discussion between Wildstar and Gw2 is a good idea!
But this is not the topic of this thread. If anyone wish to have a topic where you compare the two games in a much broader sense, then start one!

Well I doubt it would result in a thread locking, since WildStar is made by Carbine, which is owned by NC Soft just like Anet is. They’re sister studios within NC Soft — both are wholly-owned subsidiaries of NC Soft. So they’re not competitors from NC’s perspective.

knightblaster.7420:

Phadde.7362:

Well spoken. I’m just (desperately) attempting to keep the thread on topic and prevent it from being locked.

A general discussion between Wildstar and Gw2 is a good idea!
But this is not the topic of this thread. If anyone wish to have a topic where you compare the two games in a much broader sense, then start one!

Well I doubt it would result in a thread locking, since WildStar is made by Carbine, which is owned by NC Soft just like Anet is. They’re sister studios within NC Soft — both are wholly-owned subsidiaries of NC Soft. So they’re not competitors from NC’s perspective.

Still, it would be better if there was a thread made for Wildstar and Gw2 -discussion (or whatnot) instead of hijacking this thread.

After spending a good 6 to 8 hours downloading the wildstar beta….I have to say…I am somewhat disappointed. The premise is very cool, but the reality is somewhat clunky.

2 issues stood out for me immidiately.. My Fps was pretty terrible in the starting zone..like 17fps..if I was lucky…and yet the graphics while colourful and entertaining don’t seem that graphically intensive. Certainly Graphics wise..GW2 is MUCH more sophisticated. Wildstar to me feels like a more polished wow.

Much more importantly though..the combat..seems very very clunky sadly You can dodge…but unless I am mistaken, you can only dodge forward or back..not left to right like GW2…ANd I don’t know if it was the class I picked..but the whole cone thing for targeting….did not feel intuitive at all.

The quests seem a mix of good and bad… While its cool you can call in for your rewards rather than running back to the npc..The quests themselves were merely glossed over kill these and fetch that quests..so nothing new there.

The customisation initially feels very expansive..but delve deeper and its actually quite limited….for example..I picked the zombie sort of looking class..and was while I could adhust my eyebrows and my eye sockets etc..I couldn’t adjust the direction of my mouth…which mean’t the entire face still looking VERY similar to the default choice.

I’m disappointed to be honest.and it actually proved to me how SLICK GW2 is..I just wish the devs would give us more permanent and top tier conetent

Mitch.4781:

After spending a good 6 to 8 hours downloading the wildstar beta….I have to say…I am somewhat disappointed. The premise is very cool, but the reality is somewhat clunky.

2 issues stood out for me immidiately.. My Fps was pretty terrible in the starting zone..like 17fps..if I was lucky…and yet the graphics while colourful and entertaining don’t seem that graphically intensive. Certainly Graphics wise..GW2 is MUCH more sophisticated. Wildstar to me feels like a more polished wow.

Much more importantly though..the combat..seems very very clunky sadly You can dodge…but unless I am mistaken, you can only dodge forward or back..not left to right like GW2…ANd I don’t know if it was the class I picked..but the whole cone thing for targeting….did not feel intuitive at all.

The quests seem a mix of good and bad… While its cool you can call in for your rewards rather than running back to the npc..The quests themselves were merely glossed over kill these and fetch that quests..so nothing new there.

The customisation initially feels very expansive..but delve deeper and its actually quite limited….for example..I picked the zombie sort of looking class..and was while I could adhust my eyebrows and my eye sockets etc..I couldn’t adjust the direction of my mouth…which mean’t the entire face still looking VERY similar to the default choice.

I’m disappointed to be honest.and it actually proved to me how SLICK GW2 is..I just wish the devs would give us more permanent and top tier conetent

I think GW2 is much, much better aesthetically than WildStar is. It isn’t just a style issue, but an art quality issue. GW2, being a game focused on aesthetics at all levels (including in terms of gameplay design) definitely excels aesthetically in terms of the art, the detail, the animations, the score and so on. No question it’s head and shoulders above WildStar in that area.

The controls are better with addons, as I noted above. Yes it’s very different from any targeting system, with the freeform AOE for every skill in a telegraph area. You can dodge sideways (called dashing) by double clicking the appropriate keys (you can also rebind what keys do it). I do think it isn’t for everyone, however — it’s different from how MMOs generally do combat (similar in some ways to how TSW did things, but that was also different and not played by too many people), and is probably either something that you like or don’t like.

The FPS issues are unfortunate. I haven’t had any of them, but probably I am just lucky.

I am one of the odd people who actually likes both games, because at some points I feel like a more relaxed experience, which is what GW2 is to me, while at others I feel like a more intense one which requires constant concentration, which is what WildStar is to me. But I think they’re both great games.

Played Wildstar, not very appealing, rather just something “different” I can see it getting old and stale rather swiftly.

Played ArcheAge on Russian servers, what a joke of a game, c’mon.

GW2 has the potential to become THE best MMORPG on the market today, all it needs is a breath of fresh air, stuff from GW1, expansion pack. It’d be very good for the playerbase for devs to announce what they’re going to do, apart from vague LS season 2 prognosis. I do hope they will give us some info after the launch in China.

echo.2053:

Phadde.7362:

Well spoken. I’m just (desperately) attempting to keep the thread on topic and prevent it from being locked.

A general discussion between Wildstar and Gw2 is a good idea!
But this is not the topic of this thread. If anyone wish to have a topic where you compare the two games in a much broader sense, then start one!

Lol where would we be if we didn’t have the forum safety patrol?

I just wanted to keep my thread on the topic that I created it for. (Active Challenges in GW2)
The original topic (which was the whole purpose of this entire thread) is lost and something else is now discussed.

knightblaster.7420:

Phadde.7362:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

GW2 is different than Wildstar, because GW2 is an ultra-casual, “everyone wins” sort of game. Hence, why nothing is instanced and blob play is so rewarded. No one gets their feelings hurt and no ones performance is scrutinized in a blob.

It’s why this community is so against things like duels and damage meters.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not for me.

Implementing some difficult content isn’t really affecting the ordinary casual player(?) no more than high level fractals currently are. Why not add content that provides a good active challenge for the portion of the playerbase that wants it (or longs for it)?

I can’t recall hearing anyone say that adding difficult content would be bad for the game =)

In theory it doesn’t impact the other players, but normally the higher skilled players don’t feel rewarded by this kind of content unless they are given gear/abilities that separate them statistically (not just aesthetically) from other, lower skilled players — they will say “there is no reason to do that, I don’t like just aesthetic rewards, we should have the best gear because we have the most skills” and so on. To a very limited degree this was done with Ascended gear, but it was pretty limited in terms of the impact. And of course it created a storm when they did it (eventually that passed). In theory they could do something like that again, but I think they are reluctant to create another tier of gear beyond Ascended at this point.

So, yes they could create this kind of content and have aesthetic rewards — but I don’t think that aesthetic rewards are generally very satisfying to the kinds of players that you would be trying to reach with that content to begin with.

And even then, in a game where end content revolves mostly about visuals, those unique aestethic rewards cannot be too good, or they will cause the same reaction in the casual group. So, “i was here” t-shirts and caps are okay, but armor and weapons that make you stand out in the crowd – not so much.

^If one doesn’t care about aesthetic rewards, perhaps that person is not someone that the game should build the game around, since end game progression pretty much comes down to the aesthetics. Gw2 isn’t about stats.

From my point of view, items that works both as a very epic “I was there” t-shirt while still being very aesthetically pleasing is the best kind of reward for those who complete really challenging content. When I first started playing MMOs as a kid, seeing people with items that they received from doing some really difficult content, that also (perhaps as a result) looked amazing was really epic. When I much later got to wear items like that, it felt pretty amazing and very rewarding.

In my opinion, the rewards for conquering this hard content should be a fairly easily solved part of the puzzle.

downloaded it, played it for a day. I am not sure what to think of it. The good thing is, after the first areas, single normal enemies can in fact be dangerous. Character building seems rather intricate and fun. The questing isn´t too bad, but quite a few fetch and run-types. I think GW2 is better in this regard. But I doubt this game will be anything hardcore in a few months. You can see the “oh, I am a casual player, don´t bother with reading about the attributes, I have a job”-complaints already all over the forum.

I tried it for a couple of days and I found it very archaic for my taste. If you are looking for an old-school gameplay, where you will always need someone to perform tasks, this game is good. If you just want to play the game solo and doesn’t have to wait for anyone, this game is bad for them. I personally don’t like it.

It is too early to compare both games though. The fundamentals are too far apart. To be able to fully compare the two, the players of WS must be able to play the game at least to the point where bugs has been found, endgame has been discussed for some time, and players are fully geared. Until then, all discussions as to the merit of WS vs GW (and vice versa) is just face value and not “the real” experience.

I have a lvl33 character in Wildstar, I love it. The tutorial and the 3-6 zones are a bit slow, but as the quests get more challenging the game gets alot better. If you try it out I’d say get to lvl20 and try out 1 of the 2 dungeons. PvE group content is where Wildstar really shines. That said though, Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar are 2 very very different kinds of MMO’s.

RainbowSyrup.4130:

I have a lvl33 character in Wildstar, I love it. The tutorial and the 3-6 zones are a bit slow, but as the quests get more challenging the game gets alot better. If you try it out I’d say get to lvl20 and try out 1 of the 2 dungeons. PvE group content is where Wildstar really shines. That said though, Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar are 2 very very different kinds of MMO’s.

Would you say that a harder difficulty does a lot to make the game more enjoyable?

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

Sorry I touched a nerve here and hurt you. I could go on with the tutorial area, being forced into lore quests, press more buttons, burn down hologram trees….that stuff.

But let’s go into starter zone areas. Oh there’s a mob near a resource! I’ll just kill it….and someone took it while I was fighting. No matter, questing I need to kill those lizards and free captives….in which someone is freeing the captive while I kill the guy….

Boy how I missed this in MMOs!

Serophous.9085:

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

Sorry I touched a nerve here and hurt you. I could go on with the tutorial area, being forced into lore quests, press more buttons, burn down hologram trees….that stuff.

But let’s go into starter zone areas. Oh there’s a mob near a resource! I’ll just kill it….and someone took it while I was fighting. No matter, questing I need to kill those lizards and free captives….in which someone is freeing the captive while I kill the guy….

Boy how I missed this in MMOs!

at how is that exactly different from GW2 save the missing exclamation and question marks? Help farmer X is usually nothing more than a differently worded kill 15 spiders or collect 10 apples. And it kinda supports my original perception that you did not realize there is a kill sharing mechanic just like in GW2.