Guild Wars 2

I played Wildstar during the beta and disliked it. The world seemed dead to me and the questing was so bland and tasteless. The combat was fun as hell and i’d get a huge grin when I heard the level up announcement. But, as previously said on this thread…

GW2 and Wildstar are quite different in terms of target audience. Wildstar is meant for hardcore players and GW2 the other polarity. GW2 does have some hardcore content (Teq, Wurm, High level fractals, and the few guild missions that are really annoying) but is mainly casually based and this isn’t a bad thing. The problem with MMO’s is that you are trying to appeal to a wide audience of players. You either appeal to the hardcore and shun out the casuals or appeal to the casuals and shun out the hardcore. Or, if you manage to do it right, take the middle ground- content for both.

The thing is that any MMO that leans too far one way or the other will alienate one part of the player base. Even if they take the middle ground there will still be both sides alienated. Hardcore saying things should be even tougher, casuals saying they should get all of the content, etc. WoW very much so went through phases like this. BC was very hardcore, WotLK was a middle ground, while Cata was easy-land. If Wildstar is leaning towards the hardcore audience there will be backlash from the casuals. Now the question is, will they continue with their ideals and miss out on an market or will they cave in?

In all honesty I believe MMO’s should stick to the middle ground. Enough content to appease to casuals but if you really want to experience everything you must put time and effort to get to the hardcore stuff. Currently, GW2 leans more towards the casual side and Wildstar vice-versa.

TL;DR- All MMO’s will alienate either hardcore, casuals, or both. You won’t ever get an MMO that can do everything perfectly. Should GW2 have more challenging content? Certainly. Will it be small hardcore content like dungeons? Who knows, although the way Anet is leaning in favoring massive raid type content, which isn’t a bad thing. All in all if the game isn’t challenging enough for you, then move on. It’s a game guys =P

This is what us filthy casuals are seeing about the complaints of the niche hardcore crowd, and yes this has been stated before at every stage of the game from launch until now.

The first time around the game is challenging for new players because they don’t know what to expect. They do it, they learn and then they realize the strat. So then they believe it’s easy after a period of time because they figure it out.

So then they come to the forums some time later and ask for things to be harder. Time goes buy and they change Teq and the Wurm. Suddenly people can’t do those anymore in the larger population of the casual crowd so where do the casuals go for rewarding experience and to gather the mats they need for what they are working on.

The Trains

Then people complain about the trains being in the way.

So basically. Ask for new content, ask for an update to the rewards system, ask for more metas and more DE’s but please be quiet about what’s left of the open world content to do because we don’t need them changing anything else we just need additions to the content with better rewards. If you don’t find something challenging fine, but leave the open world alone because that’s for the casual crowd. There aren’t any raids here there won’t be any raids in this game ever. Please quit asking for all of the open world content to be turned into raids just because you saw raids in another game! It’s not helping anyone.

All this is going to do is alienate more of the casual crowd who happen to be the money spenders and will take more revenue away from the game which will then slow down the corrections/updates which then will slow down the new content. I repeat you’re not helping anyone.

I have a feeling that mods and other add on are going to make wildatar very non challenging in time.

GW2 has a weird challenge early game tends to be super hard as well as mid game but the end game or high level zone tend to be a bit too easy. That being said places like fractals and wvw have endless challenges in them. GW2 needs more level 80 zones at the end of the day or simply add more effects to the current level 80 zones. With the mega world set up they can add a lot more zones and make big events much harder with out the fear of having no one on that world to populate that zone. I think this LS season going to bring a lot more harder content to the game and we will see events become harder and more complex soon.

Zelkovan.2630:

TL;DR- All MMO’s will alienate either hardcore, casuals, or both. You won’t ever get an MMO that can do everything perfectly. Should GW2 have more challenging content? Certainly. Will it be small hardcore content like dungeons? Who knows, although the way Anet is leaning in favoring massive raid type content, which isn’t a bad thing. All in all if the game isn’t challenging enough for you, then move on. It’s a game guys =P

But you can appeal to the sides of the spectrum with some features, while the remaining of the game lands in the middle. Currently, we don’t have content in PvE that is hard. Besides, I’ve always felt that hard content in MMOs makes the game itself feel bigger and a whole lot more epic, even when I was but a noob and wasn’t anywhere near to even participate in those challenging encountes =)

Phadde.7362:

Do you think that this is something that the game really, really needs?

NO! Not just no, but KITTEN NO!

Let’s be honest here. No game is going to do hard core challenging and casual both, and do them well. You can do both and do them kind of crappy, or you can do one and try to do it well. It’s not just encounters, it’s progression and stats and content gates. One style needs them, the other style does better when it down plays them as much as possible.

GW2 was made to be a casual game. It will NEVER measure up to the challenging gameplay put forth by a game that was made to give challenges from the get-go. Trying to do so just moves GW2 into being a second-rate, average or worse game. And changing it enough so that it DOES measure up means that it won’t be anything like the real GW2 any more.

People that really want challenging game play will move to a game that has it. That isn’t GW2, and it will NEVER be GW2. GW2’s strengths are casual play, and the communities that have formed around that. Arena Net can either return to working towards that, or continue their current slide towards being WoW Clone #17.

The only thing GW2 can gain from copying Wildstar is mediocrity.

Kill X quests weren’t really a problem. Plenty of X to go around.

Gather X quests are a pain because other players poach your item because you are dispatching the mob next to it so you have to wait for the item (or boss) to respawn.

Jski.6180:

With the mega world set up they can add a lot more zones and make big events much harder with out the fear of having no one on that world to populate that zone. I think this LS season going to bring a lot more harder content to the game and we will see events become harder and more complex soon.

Really ? Harder Zones ? Sorry but i don’t think we need more Karka Islands. That zone is still dead with Megaserver beside the time when the Queen Event is running.

And that zone was especially created because so many players cried for their harder zones and that everything is too easy.

I’d rather see more zones like Frostgorge instead.

Palador.2170:

Phadde.7362:

Do you think that this is something that the game really, really needs?

NO! Not just no, but KITTEN NO!

Let’s be honest here. No game is going to do hard core challenging and casual both, and do them well. You can do both and do them kind of crappy, or you can do one and try to do it well.

I disagree entirely and I think that there are numerous examples of games that do both without making any part suffer in a meaningful way.

I think where wildstar really shines and GW2 really could improve is in the dungeons and adventures.

WS has varied, complex, challenging dungeons that are rewarding.
WS also has even more varied, complex and slightly easier more story driven adventures that are equally as rewarding.

GW2 has stack and spam speed run dungeons that you need to run 20+ times just to get anything of value.

Beldin.5498:

Jski.6180:

With the mega world set up they can add a lot more zones and make big events much harder with out the fear of having no one on that world to populate that zone. I think this LS season going to bring a lot more harder content to the game and we will see events become harder and more complex soon.

Really ? Harder Zones ? Sorry but i don’t think we need more Karka Islands. That zone is still dead with Megaserver beside the time when the Queen Event is running.

And that zone was especially created because so many players cried for their harder zones and that everything is too easy.

I’d rather see more zones like Frostgorge instead.

Frostgorge was seen as a hard zone too or was planed to be one but it was too easy to get exotic items. Most of the content in this game should be done with greens and rares but exotic where too easy to get so every one thinks exotic are the stander of if content is hard or not. I think they are going to make new zones that are aimed at exotic level items if they add in new level 80 zones the old level 80 to 70 zones are more aimed at rare and greens.

Dalanor.5387:

Didn’t read the whole thread.
When everybody knows the content, tactics and game mechanics inside out and reaches the required gear or even go beyond that, Wildstar will be the same average and easy MMO as others. Only time will tell what will actually happen, but i’m sceptical.
GW2 started the same, as OP said it too. A lot of us dodged and tried to use tactics even against a simple boar and after days passed we realised two auto attack is enough.

Unless the npcs aren’t npcs but have people playing them then eventually sooner rather than later detailed guides to tactics will be available that, along with good gear, will allow medium players to beat them unless they are designed not to be beaten. If the dungeons aren’t randomly built tactics will also be devised for them.

As I said before: two very different games. GW2 is the ultra casual player’s dream. Nothing too challenging or deep to it, so you can just jump in and have fun. Blob play is rewarded and all you have to do is spam 1. There are only a few viable builds per class and one viable gear set, so nothing to really think too much about there.

No damage meters, no duels, no addons, no instancing, etc. so players don’t have to worry about being evaluated, scrutinized, or have their feelings hurt because they chose to “play how they want”. Really, I don’t even consider it an MMO at this point.

I wanted guild wars 2 to have challenging content but nope all we get are zerg train updates it’s a shame because i’ve been playing from gw1 beta preview weekend. Dungeons in gw2 consist of stack on me and the mobs have horrible a.i so they just sit ontop of each other getting cleaved to death in a few seconds. When they introduced the queens gauntlet a long with liadri I was finally happy they introduced something challenging and it would continue but no more zerg content:(

I’ve been playing ws since last year july the only things I enjoy are the raids and dungeons because they are somewhat challenging and you can’t sit there autoattacking mobs to death while watching Walking Dead.

RoRo.8270:

I wanted guild wars 2 to have challenging content but nope all we get are zerg train updates it’s a shame because i’ve been playing from gw1 beta preview weekend. Dungeons in gw2 consist of stack on me and the mobs have horrible a.i so they just sit ontop of each other getting cleaved to death in a few seconds. When they introduced the queens gauntlet a long with liadri I was finally happy they introduced something challenging and it would continue but no more zerg content:(

I’ve been playing ws since last year july the only things I enjoy are the raids and dungeons because they are somewhat challenging and you can’t sit there autoattacking mobs to death while watching Walking Dead.

This is the result in an “everyone wins”, “play how you want”, “special snowflake build” game. Extremely easy content.

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

Sorry I touched a nerve here and hurt you. I could go on with the tutorial area, being forced into lore quests, press more buttons, burn down hologram trees….that stuff.

But let’s go into starter zone areas. Oh there’s a mob near a resource! I’ll just kill it….and someone took it while I was fighting. No matter, questing I need to kill those lizards and free captives….in which someone is freeing the captive while I kill the guy….

Boy how I missed this in MMOs!

at how is that exactly different from GW2 save the missing exclamation and question marks? Help farmer X is usually nothing more than a differently worded kill 15 spiders or collect 10 apples. And it kinda supports my original perception that you did not realize there is a kill sharing mechanic just like in GW2.

Nothing in my post complained about kill stealing, or mob tagging. I understand they go by a system that xp and you earn from killing a mob based on percentage of damage you did to said mob fills up your quest meter like the hearts in gw2.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is the result in an “everyone wins”, “play how you want”, “special snowflake build” game. Extremely easy content.

If there was content that provided these kind of active challenges that I go on and on about, what exact build you run would matter less as there would be a much bigger emphasis on execution; Playing the build that you personally feel comfortable in is better when doing encounters with this type of challenge. Thus, “snowflake builds” would definitely be a thing! Yes, it’s speculation on my part, but it’s what I firmly believe will happen.
I feel this a lot while playing Dark Souls 2. You pick what you personally feel comfortable with and that makes you perform better.

[quote012635;Dark Catalyst.1028:]As I said before: two very different games. GW2 is the ultra casual player’s dream. Nothing too challenging or deep to it, so you can just jump in and have fun. Blob play is rewarded and all you have to do is spam 1. There are only a few viable builds per class and one viable gear set, so nothing to really think too much about there.

No damage meters, no duels, no addons, no instancing, etc. so players don’t have to worry about being evaluated, scrutinized, or have their feelings hurt because they chose to “play how they want”. Really, I don’t even consider it an MMO at this point.

[/quote]

By addons if you mean the ones that change the layout, collect Ah data, then OK.

But if your are talking about addons like DBM, or dot timers, or buff timers, then no. You can go ahead and ask for harder content all you want, but you have a program telling you how to play the whole time. When to press a button, shouting a warning at you before e a boss does his major mechanic, those addons dumb the game down and itself. You have a hand guiding you through the encounters.

If you want challenging content for the sake of challenging content, so long as it doesn’t take away from existing not-as-challenging content (i.e., Tequatl change bad; New 3 Wurm in Bloodtide good), then I’m all for that, and hope you get it.

However, I think deep, deep down in some souls (I dare not say all), the need is to have said challenging content then provide rewards which can not be obtained in any other fashion (gem store, time gated, many-many X more casual content), with the ultimate reward being your favored play style being rewarded with things other play styles are not.

That Starbelly Sneetchification, Free Market, America, NASCAR, Gordon Gekko, Bernie Maddolf -Esque view of reward is disturbing, and I think it’s sad and unhealthy that some games want to mimic that side of human nurture (not nature, as studies would suggest we’re born with the instinct to share and we learn to be greedy).

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

notebene.3190:

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

Thanks =)
In an Mmorpg, I feel that the “euphoria” of defeating a challenging encounter is enhanced if you get some sort of token to attach to your character as a proof that you’ve accomplished it. It’s primal pride, but in a rpg, it’s a fun part of the game!

Well, in PvE, Guild Wars 2 is certainly very easy (apart from maybe a few instances; the Prime Hologram foght comes to mind in the sense of active play). I would like it a lot if they added more mechanics to all champions, for instance (and got rid of defiant), but they can’t make everything hardcore, since it’s not the design philosophy of the game. However, if I want a challenge, I just hop into PvP, where the enemies are smarter than any AI in the foreseeable future. Problem solved?

The design philosophy of the game has been violated in so many ways, that putting in some more actual difficult content for small amounts of players would not cause the continuum to collapse upon itself or anything.

Dragonic Elemental.2674:

Well, in PvE, Guild Wars 2 is certainly very easy (apart from maybe a few instances; the Prime Hologram foght comes to mind in the sense of active play). I would like it a lot if they added more mechanics to all champions, for instance (and got rid of defiant), but they can’t make everything hardcore, since it’s not the design philosophy of the game. However, if I want a challenge, I just hop into PvP, where the enemies are smarter than any AI in the foreseeable future. Problem solved?

Soo bored with Conquest though =)
Courtyard is a blast though, when you find those rare servers with proper 1v1 and 2v2

I recently tried the WS beta and I gotta say that game cracked me up sometimes. Especially when I leveled up and heard a voice ’’Oh kitten you leveled up, way to go cupcake". But again and again I wanted to go play Gw2 all the time while playing.

I guess that would be mostly because I was just grinding my way up level after level. So I went on my 80’s in Gw2 and did what I usually do. Some daily PvP, dungeon runs, world bosses and ascended crafting. But while I was playing I got reminded about what I missed. The hardcore stuff, which WildStar has. So I went back and continued to level in WS and yet I became bored doing the leveling.

The point is. Guild Wars 2 really has a solid casual gameplay but in more recent times. I just log on daily and do the thing I least don’t feel like doing. Cause I’ve done everything in the game 100 times over and I’m growing further and further away from GW2. And I hate it. Because I love the game and I see so much potential it has. But it comes from an egoistic point of view since not everyone wants the hardcore stuff(since megaservers, teq and wurm doesn’t count).

WildStar is a game where you have to haul your kitten through all the boring low level zones all the way to the “elder(end)-games”. I maybe will give it a chance but I rather want GW2 to get that.

ArenaNet has spoken alot about “creating a foundation for the game”. So I’d guess they are speaking about alot to do regarding to the dungeons, achievements, daily rewards and so forth. But with their constant temporary content from the living story the game will never actually be any different and create a dull game. Dungeons as the aetherpirates hideout and the molten facility dissapears and queen’s gauntlet is still closed. Instead the game get new added permanent things such as crab toss, belcher’s bluff and sanctum sprint.

This game suffers from end game and suffers from ridiculous rng, so things to actually really work hard for right now such as legendary and fractal skins is not really worth putting the time into. And ever since the feature pack the inflation on precursors is frightening.

But then again, I have my hopes up for the future and since it’s f2p I won’t take any harm from taking a break from it. But I got to stop lying to myself, this game is starting to get really boring. And that’s an opinion from a player who was there from the beginning.

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

Sorry I touched a nerve here and hurt you. I could go on with the tutorial area, being forced into lore quests, press more buttons, burn down hologram trees….that stuff.

But let’s go into starter zone areas. Oh there’s a mob near a resource! I’ll just kill it….and someone took it while I was fighting. No matter, questing I need to kill those lizards and free captives….in which someone is freeing the captive while I kill the guy….

Boy how I missed this in MMOs!

at how is that exactly different from GW2 save the missing exclamation and question marks? Help farmer X is usually nothing more than a differently worded kill 15 spiders or collect 10 apples. And it kinda supports my original perception that you did not realize there is a kill sharing mechanic just like in GW2.

Kill sharing isn’t enough.

During events, you need to contribute, but you don’t need to contribute absolutely everything (Though they should increase situational awareness during events to reward those who engage in auxiliary activities around it, like protecting those harvesting).

Also, while the renown hearts are variants on typical quests, they usually carry a lot of options with them, so you can achieve a combination of 15 spiders or collecting 10 apples.

Sartharina.3542:

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Algreg.3629:

Serophous.9085:

Wildstar has a horrible tutorial area for both factions. They are boring. What does gw2 do? Through you into the middle of a battle, shoves a weapon into your hand and says ‘see those bad guys? Kill em!’.

Wildstar I’m filling out a questionnaire asking how much i drink then shoving a prop item into my hand, telling me to interrogate some people then press a button.

Yeah, that’s dominion, and exile is the same with the whole ‘help me find my wife!’ walk five feet we’ve found her! Press a button!

Throw me into the middle of a fight any day.

great, you apparently took the time to play it for 3 minutes. Guess we can call that an educated review.

Sorry I touched a nerve here and hurt you. I could go on with the tutorial area, being forced into lore quests, press more buttons, burn down hologram trees….that stuff.

But let’s go into starter zone areas. Oh there’s a mob near a resource! I’ll just kill it….and someone took it while I was fighting. No matter, questing I need to kill those lizards and free captives….in which someone is freeing the captive while I kill the guy….

Boy how I missed this in MMOs!

at how is that exactly different from GW2 save the missing exclamation and question marks? Help farmer X is usually nothing more than a differently worded kill 15 spiders or collect 10 apples. And it kinda supports my original perception that you did not realize there is a kill sharing mechanic just like in GW2.

Kill sharing isn’t enough.

During events, you need to contribute, but you don’t need to contribute absolutely everything (Though they should increase situational awareness during events to reward those who engage in auxiliary activities around it, like protecting those harvesting).

Also, while the renown hearts are variants on typical quests, they usually carry a lot of options with them, so you can achieve a combination of 15 spiders or collecting 10 apples.

which other MMORPG do too. The thing where GW2 excels is the lack of run back to quest giver-type situations, but the quests themselves are really just different by description. But that is a matter in all theme park games. Random events are also a strength of GW2 which some upcoming games are apparently going to adapt. Let´s hope they find a way to discourage the superzerg crush.

Phadde.7362:

But you can appeal to the sides of the spectrum with some features, while the remaining of the game lands in the middle. Currently, we don’t have content in PvE that is hard. Besides, I’ve always felt that hard content in MMOs makes the game itself feel bigger and a whole lot more epic, even when I was but a noob and wasn’t anywhere near to even participate in those challenging encountes =)

Well, you can’t really. I mean look at what happened with Teq/Wurm. There were plenty of people who were genuinly happy with the updates (myself included) because it actually brought challenging content that wasn’t a cake roll. Then you also had a bunch of other players at the launch of these events (and still even today) complaining that they will never be able to do the content daily and that they won’t ever get it. The same would happen if you add hardcore content, regardless where it is placed. There will be people who will complain.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think where wildstar really shines and GW2 really could improve is in the dungeons and adventures.

WS has varied, complex, challenging dungeons that are rewarding.
WS also has even more varied, complex and slightly easier more story driven adventures that are equally as rewarding.

GW2 has stack and spam speed run dungeons that you need to run 20+ times just to get anything of value.

GW2 dungeons were like that at launch too. It wasn’t until they got nerfed/buffed and when people started to become familiar with game mechanics and how dungeons worked did stacking play a role in it. The same will happen with Wildstar, give it enough time and people will begin speed-running/abusing things in the dungeons in that game too. It happens in every MMO.

Also I find a majority of players on this forum seem to dismiss a bunch of GW2’s content as zerg-mash button content are the ones who don’t fully understand the encounters or combat mechanics of this game. Wurm and Teq certainly aren’t like that nor was Marionette. Escape from LA wasn’t a zerg based content either- you needed to coordinate with other players in small groups to get the maximum award. Guild missions aren’t zerg mashing either, there are some bosses that can reflect and deal massive damage (there’s one bounty mission in a 15-25 zone. I forget the name but he can reflect projectiles, become immune, and deal massive damage so you need to be on your toes).

There is hard content in this game. It’s just a majority of the forums will see something and if it requires 10+ or more they will immediately dismiss it as “zerg-button mashing content”.

Zelkovan.2630:

There is hard content in this game. It’s just a majority of the forums will see something and if it requires 10+ or more they will immediately dismiss it as “zerg-button mashing content”.

I can kind of relate to that. I don’t find Teq, Wurm etc. particularly appealing, because it feels like you’re just one in a crowd of strangers. Sure, your guild can summon it now, so that’s a plus!
I know about that Guild mission boss as well, and even though it’s hard to survive on that one specific encounter, it doesn’t matter one bit if you die (at least not in my experience) since there’s always a bunch of people resurrecting you in the blink of an eye, or simply carrying your load for you. In this respect, this latter example feels quite zergy to me.

Gw2 was quite a bit harder at launch and this was not just because people didn’t know how things work.
I was in Orr last night for the first time in ages and I haven’t really spent any time there since just after launch- when I used to live in Malchor’s because I had a personal grudge against Balthazar.
I was shocked at how ridiculous Orr is now.

WildStar is an interesting game and it is a good game- sure it has it’s faults but I believe that is because it is very much still in beta.

If I look back at GW2 beta- it seems to me that WildStar is actually a more complete product at this point.

It is definitely much more traditional than GW2 will ever be and it flat out caters for more hardcore players- that is not a secret.

What I find so interesting that along with the 40 man raids, it also has smaller adventures as well as single player- lore instances.

Challenging single player instances or even content, is something I have missed in GW2.
Up until the mega server you could still work around that somewhat.
But while pushing the pact from Straits alone is challenging- it is not really designed for a single player at all

I also really like combat in WildStar- don’t get me wrong I love the fluidity of combat in GW2. Combat in WildStar just feels much more strategic to me- you timing and positioning matters a lot more.
You feel like you are getting better at your skill, even though WildStar is a gear dependent game.

I haven’t really felt that I get better tangibly in GW2 in a very long time.
New encounters are pretty much a matter of figuring out the mechanics and then going for it ( that might of course be because I have more than 2000 hours and can fight in my sleep at this point)

I have no doubt though that 2 years down the line people will think WildStar is too easy.
Where do you draw the line though?
If you keep ramping up difficulty to keep veteran players challenged- you completely alienate new players who are just picking up the game.
This is pretty much an MMO problem.

@Morrigan – it launches June 6th. This 10 day open beta is a shake down of existing mission bugs and what not. I’m not expecting any major changes between now and the 6th.

Behellagh.1468:

@Morrigan – it launches June 6th. This 10 day open beta is a shake down of existing mission bugs and what not. I’m not expecting any major changes between now and the 6th.

mmm might be that what I think of as bugs are just differences with GW2- I might have to actually look at the add on’s – I have been playing vanilla up until now _ actually I haven’t even really messed around with the options at all, was too busy rubbernecking.

I do think that WildStar is a more all round complete game for launch than GW2 was.
More modes- more options for different play styles, housing etc.
It just seems that the base game is more thought out.

Then again GW2 was such a completely engaging and beautifully mesmerizing world.
Two very very different games for different audiences.

Morrigan.2809:

Two very very different games for different audiences.

They seem to complement each other. I’ve been tooling around in the open beta (haven’t found this extra challenge yet btw) and I can see people who like GW2 would also get something out of the other. It going to be easy to switch between the two. I wonder if the publisher tried to arrange something like that.

Wildstar is designed to "coach"players through learning the combat and all of the game mechanics as they level. (Don’t forget, not everyone landing in Wildstar has played a game that has mobile combat). It is designed to ramp up and get harder the closer the player gets to endgame.

It starts out easy, and as players get past level 20, they sudden discover that they need to take a big step up to meet the game.

I am curious to see if the game actually will end up becoming more casual over a space of time, because at the moment, there exists a telling story about a beta tester saying the game was getting too hard to play and the producer responding with, “well then, don’t play”, indicating the developer would rather lose players than change the basic vision/character/structure/feel of the game. I admire that.

Now, to not upset Phadde and his original intent of the thread, I believe that ANet attempted to do something similar with Orr. The early zones in GW2 are easier, the mobs are spread out and it’s relatively easy to move around. Not the case in the original Orr zones.

At one point, 6 months or so after release, I remember threads complaining about the difficulty of Orr, and how players in GW2 had learned to modify their behavior in response to say the “gauntlet” on the way to Grenth…. just run. And how that behavior ended up becoming the norm when level 80’s wandered back down into the lower level zones and trailed mobs onto new players. Those zones ended up not getting a lot of traffic (for “endgame” zones) and eventually they were modified. And then new incentives were added to draw players back.

I agee with the posters who’ve said that it’s hard (if not impossible) to please all customers. WoW, given it’s size (both in terms of subscribers and the game world), tried to “be all things to all players” and managed somewhat successfully. They did reach a middle ground in WotLK, and many ex-players believe it was probably WoW’s peak. However, even that successful expansion failed by making heroic gear too easily available to everyone, cheapening it for those at the hard end of the challenging- content-spectrum, and creating boredom for those in the middle range.

RIFT also tried to please both ends of the spectrum and ended up attriting the customers in the middle who were neither into scheduled hardcore challenging content, nor those who were happier with a more casual approach. (Nothing wrong with either btw.) Finding that middle ground, providing enough content to keep everyone happy feels like an MMO’s developer’s holy grail.

GW2 does not seem to have the structure, from either a large world perspective, nor it’s basic gameplay foundation, nor frankly it’s business model, to be able to try and successfully support the wide diversity of playstyles demanded by today’s MMO players.

At the moment, GW2 feels somewhat fractured, with a little bit of everything it does somewhat well, instead of focusing on those things it can do exceptionally well and then sticking to them. That requires commitment and discipline. And a willingness to lose customers, in order to retain those that will be happiest.

I am willing to admit, that I might be one they just need to let go for the overall health of the game, even though personally, I am looking for more content from GW2.

zenleto.6179:

Morrigan.2809:

Two very very different games for different audiences.

They seem to complement each other. I’ve been tooling around in the open beta (haven’t found this extra challenge yet btw) and I can see people who like GW2 would also get something out of the other. It going to be easy to switch between the two. I wonder if the publisher tried to arrange something like that.

When GW2 was in beta, the biggest response from most of the players of games like WoW and RIFT was that GW2 was a nice casual game, with no monthly subscription, which would give the hardcore raiders something to keep them busy while they waited out their raid timers.

goldenwing.8473:

zenleto.6179:

Morrigan.2809:

Two very very different games for different audiences.

They seem to complement each other. I’ve been tooling around in the open beta (haven’t found this extra challenge yet btw) and I can see people who like GW2 would also get something out of the other. It going to be easy to switch between the two. I wonder if the publisher tried to arrange something like that.

When GW2 was in beta, the biggest response from most of the players of games like WoW and RIFT was that GW2 was a nice casual game, with no monthly subscription, which would give the hardcore raiders something to keep them busy while they waited out their raid timers.

I’ve been thinking since a week after the LS finished that I needed a game to keep me busy until LS2. The other game might be the filler between my bouts of casualness!

(And Phadde, I’ve been trying to find the challenge in the other game to actually participate in the thread as asked for so sorry for the disruption. I found the minor derailment was too interesting.)

From the look of things, wildstar’s dungeons are very scripted, meaning that if everyone does their stuff right, it goes all smooth. It’s kind of the same challenge as FF14, injury gotta learn the dance, but after you learn the dance, you’re golden.

But learning the dance is one tough job.

I can actually see GW2 being a lot more difficult than Wildstar, because one, GW2 on a personally level seems less forgiving than WS in terms of screwing up in higher-tier dungeons (although every hit being a 1HKO is not exactly good game design), and it’s not as scripted, with fights like the first miniboss in the harpies fractal being quite chaotic (that isn’t a hard fight at all, but represents what I’m talking about).

Beldin.5498:

Jski.6180:

With the mega world set up they can add a lot more zones and make big events much harder with out the fear of having no one on that world to populate that zone. I think this LS season going to bring a lot more harder content to the game and we will see events become harder and more complex soon.

Really ? Harder Zones ? Sorry but i don’t think we need more Karka Islands. That zone is still dead with Megaserver beside the time when the Queen Event is running.

And that zone was especially created because so many players cried for their harder zones and that everything is too easy.

I’d rather see more zones like Frostgorge instead.

Thank you! I noticed that too. The other two things that came from people crying for harder zones were Teq and Wurm and we saw how well that worked out right?

This game doesn’t have raids, people need to let go and move on and leave PVE open world alone! sheesh!

goldenwing.8473:

Wildstar is designed to "coach"players through learning the combat and all of the game mechanics as they level. (Don’t forget, not everyone landing in Wildstar has played a game that has mobile combat). It is designed to ramp up and get harder the closer the player gets to endgame.

It starts out easy, and as players get past level 20, they sudden discover that they need to take a big step up to meet the game.

I am curious to see if the game actually will end up becoming more casual over a space of time, because at the moment, there exists a telling story about a beta tester saying the game was getting too hard to play and the producer responding with, “well then, don’t play”, indicating the developer would rather lose players than change the basic vision/character/structure/feel of the game. I admire that…

…GW2 does not seem to have the structure, from either a large world perspective, nor it’s basic gameplay foundation, nor frankly it’s business model, to be able to try and successfully support the wide diversity of playstyles demanded by today’s MMO players.

At the moment, GW2 feels somewhat fractured, with a little bit of everything it does somewhat well, instead of focusing on those things it can do exceptionally well and then sticking to them. That requires commitment and discipline. And a willingness to lose customers, in order to retain those that will be happiest.

I am willing to admit, that I might be one they just need to let go for the overall health of the game, even though personally, I am looking for more content from GW2.

Well written =)
Trying to please both ends in the spectrum of difficulty in a more profound way with lots of content for both “extremes” (meaning the 10% on each end) is a bit too much of a heavy task. What I’m suggesting is smaller.
Perhaps adding hardmodes to a handful of dungeon paths, where simply knowing the tactics is never enough; You have to stay on the very edge of your toes and try your best to pay attention to all the mobs animation and the position of them and your teammates. An active challenge.

I like this idea, because ANet can use the already finished environments of the paths (which I imagine saves a ton of time!) and “just” add mobs and bosses with mechanics that requires you to think on the fly!
This is just an example of to what could be enough to finally please that last 10% of the spectrum. It’s not much, really

After spending two days downloading Wildstar (my internet isn’t fast), I was looking forward to seeing what all the fuss was about.

After an hour I uninstalled. Maybe I should have given it more time, but it just felt too juvenile to me. Combat is ok, but once you learn to dodge it just becomes a dodge fest with shots being telegraphed and easily avoided, so just a reaction game.

The graphics and the cartoon characters aren’t my style either. I didn’t get to the open world pvp enabled areas, but if that’s like Aion then they will have a lot of problems with that with higher levels griefing.

I’m sure it will suit a certain player type and maybe the higher level pvp might have been fun as i like a challenge (and it has a healing class) but the early stages put me off.

knightblaster.7420:

WildStar has been envisioned from the beginning as being a game that was trying to feature the kind of difficulty that existed in MMOs (even the leveling game) prior to WoW’s expansions. The concept was to create a game that was, from the very beginning of it, tailored to meet the needs and desires of the most hardcore, high-skill-cap players in the MMO community — a group which often feels like its needs are overlooked in MMOs these days. So, WildStar from soup to nuts is catering to the most intense, hardcore, high skill gamer — that’s it’s own niche.

So..basically..WS is a gathering place for hardcore elite players from GW2/WoW/Etc ?

Nice

JCROY.5730:

So..basically..WS is a gathering place for hardcore elite players from GW2/WoW/Etc ?

Nice

nah, just for people who look for excitement instead of relaxing in computer games, who see failing at a task as an incitement to improve (instead of asking to have that obstacle removed) and who generally enjoy being good at something and trying to get even better at it. For renaissance personalities maybe :P

I loved Wildstar’s style and I enjoyed the combat… in PvE at least.

I was able to enjoy the leveling process even through bland and repetitive quests because it offered a challenge! In PvE the combat against mobs felt exciting and engaging. You better worry when you run into a veteran mob, but all the fights felt winnable. Engaging combat in PvE is something gw2 just doesn’t have.

Where gw2 shines is the PvP, Wildstar PvP was so bad I immediately stopped playing the game after I tried it for the first time. I mean its that bad. Its a steaming pile of kitten.

^ WS I’d say is for people who missed the old days of vanilla WoW, where fights were tough as nails, failure is a rite of passage, and good players can really make a name for themselves.

Personally, I think I’m past my raiding days. If I was back in uni, I probably would enjoy that somewhat (I’m still a raid tank in TSW in a guild who raids very casually), but now, with a job and an increasing amount of real life responsibilities, I just don’t have the time or the effort to spare to be a hardcore raider.

I wonder if a game only for hardcore players works, since i often have the feeling that one of the main aspects from the hardcore folks is to get “better” stuff and show off what they have, and that means they need other players around that DON’T have that stuff.

However if now a game has only these hardcore players and everyone has the good stuff, will that not lead to the feeling that everyone of these hardcores in the end is just a casual / medium player and not the soooo much better than the rest player ?

I think the gaming industry is really kind of past that ‘hardcore’ stage. People always talk about vanilla WoW and how good it was, and how the new WoW us catered to casuals and carebears, but WoW didn’t change so it could screw itself over, it changed because the gaming scene has changed from people who’s games are their lives to people with jobs, with families, who plays seldomly, so it adapted so it can stay big.

WS will probably get at least some sort if a niche audience, but I just don’t see it being a big thing. And it’s Facebook likes count seems to agree with that.

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

Thanks =)
In an Mmorpg, I feel that the “euphoria” of defeating a challenging encounter is enhanced if you get some sort of token to attach to your character as a proof that you’ve accomplished it. It’s primal pride, but in a rpg, it’s a fun part of the game!

If I could get that same token by doing 100 events, or something else, does that somehow remove the euphoria you would get from defeating that challenging content and receiving your token?

If you would not begrudge my token, then I’m fine with it.

My concern is measuring wealth relative to what other people don’t have that you have that concerns me.

That we continue to make MMOs like that, to mimic what Western civilization has nurtured us away from, rather than exploring something new to see if it could be done better, is a missed opportunity.

And who knows, maybe that’s what the planet is trying to tell us, and it’s just prepping itself to let the bees have a crack at it next.

tolunart.2095:

knightblaster.7420:

It’s a pretty fundamental philosophical/design difference.

WildStar has been envisioned from the beginning as being a game that was trying to feature the kind of difficulty that existed in MMOs (even the leveling game) prior to WoW’s expansions. The concept was to create a game that was, from the very beginning of it, tailored to meet the needs and desires of the most hardcore, high-skill-cap players in the MMO community — a group which often feels like its needs are overlooked in MMOs these days. So, WildStar from soup to nuts is catering to the most intense, hardcore, high skill gamer — that’s it’s own niche. I think it will be successful in that niche, but there are many other players who play MMOs these days who are moderately skilled at best and are not hardcore — they will be punished by WildStar’s design, and will not find it rewarding --> and, that’s okay because they are not WildStar’s target audience. The most hardcore, skill-cap oriented players are what they are going for.

And when they realize that this is the smallest and hardest to please niche in the MMO market, they’ll dumb down the content and make everything easier to attract the mainstream players, in much the same way that GW2 devs added ascended gear and fractal dungeons to appeal to the rush of hardcore gamers who complained that there was nothing to do when they hit the level cap after 10 days of play.

Agreed. I don’t think people actually realize how small the hard-core niche is compared to casual players these days.

I foresee a constant stream of “content too hard! content too inaccesible!” complaints. Can’t find a group to do X, it shouldn’t require X people to do Y content, when are they adding solo dungeons, I don’t have time to play hard-core but I want all of the same stuff!

It’s going to happen. You will all see.

Draknar.5748:

tolunart.2095:

knightblaster.7420:

It’s a pretty fundamental philosophical/design difference.

WildStar has been envisioned from the beginning as being a game that was trying to feature the kind of difficulty that existed in MMOs (even the leveling game) prior to WoW’s expansions. The concept was to create a game that was, from the very beginning of it, tailored to meet the needs and desires of the most hardcore, high-skill-cap players in the MMO community — a group which often feels like its needs are overlooked in MMOs these days. So, WildStar from soup to nuts is catering to the most intense, hardcore, high skill gamer — that’s it’s own niche. I think it will be successful in that niche, but there are many other players who play MMOs these days who are moderately skilled at best and are not hardcore — they will be punished by WildStar’s design, and will not find it rewarding --> and, that’s okay because they are not WildStar’s target audience. The most hardcore, skill-cap oriented players are what they are going for.

And when they realize that this is the smallest and hardest to please niche in the MMO market, they’ll dumb down the content and make everything easier to attract the mainstream players, in much the same way that GW2 devs added ascended gear and fractal dungeons to appeal to the rush of hardcore gamers who complained that there was nothing to do when they hit the level cap after 10 days of play.

Agreed. I don’t think people actually realize how small the hard-core niche is compared to casual players these days.

I foresee a constant stream of “content too hard! content too inaccesible!” complaints. Can’t find a group to do X, it shouldn’t require X people to do Y content, when are they adding solo dungeons, I don’t have time to play hard-core but I want all of the same stuff!

It’s going to happen. You will all see.

Wait so which is it? Hardcore players are such a small niche that they can’t support the game, or hardcore players are such a large portion of the playerbase that they had to add in ascended gear, fractals, teq and wurm because the game can’t survive without the hardcore players?

You can’t have both… either hardcore players are a small niche or they are essential for the games survival…Which is it?

notebene.3190:

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

Thanks =)
In an Mmorpg, I feel that the “euphoria” of defeating a challenging encounter is enhanced if you get some sort of token to attach to your character as a proof that you’ve accomplished it. It’s primal pride, but in a rpg, it’s a fun part of the game!

If I could get that same token by doing 100 events, or something else, does that somehow remove the euphoria you would get from defeating that challenging content and receiving your token?

If you would not begrudge my token, then I’m fine with it.

My concern is measuring wealth relative to what other people don’t have that you have that concerns me.

That we continue to make MMOs like that, to mimic what Western civilization has nurtured us away from, rather than exploring something new to see if it could be done better, is a missed opportunity.

And who knows, maybe that’s what the planet is trying to tell us, and it’s just prepping itself to let the bees have a crack at it next.

Well, I’m thinking of these rewards being some kind of cosmetic trophy for completing specific, challenging encounters. It almost makes having trophies like these redundant if anyone can get it by doing something else entirely. The purpose is lost. Almost every other cosmetic item in the game can be acquired by doing pretty much whatever you want. I don’t see any valid reason for not having cosmetic items that represents your defeat on a specific, difficult challenge. It comes with a sense of pride, and I think that’s really important in an Rpg.

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

Thanks =)
In an Mmorpg, I feel that the “euphoria” of defeating a challenging encounter is enhanced if you get some sort of token to attach to your character as a proof that you’ve accomplished it. It’s primal pride, but in a rpg, it’s a fun part of the game!

If I could get that same token by doing 100 events, or something else, does that somehow remove the euphoria you would get from defeating that challenging content and receiving your token?

If you would not begrudge my token, then I’m fine with it.

My concern is measuring wealth relative to what other people don’t have that you have that concerns me.

That we continue to make MMOs like that, to mimic what Western civilization has nurtured us away from, rather than exploring something new to see if it could be done better, is a missed opportunity.

And who knows, maybe that’s what the planet is trying to tell us, and it’s just prepping itself to let the bees have a crack at it next.

Well, I’m thinking of these rewards being some kind of cosmetic trophy for completing specific, challenging encounters. It almost makes having trophies like these redundant if anyone can get it by doing something else entirely. The purpose is lost. Almost every other cosmetic item in the game can be acquired by doing pretty much whatever you want. I don’t see any valid reason for not having cosmetic items that represents your defeat on a specific, difficult challenge. It comes with a sense of pride, and I think that’s really important in an Rpg.

Thanks for responding. This is exactly what I’m getting at. Wanting difficult content is usually not so much about wanting difficult content for the sake of difficult content because it’s fun. It’s about wanting a structure that rewards that and doesn’t allow other people to achieve it through other means. That euphoria isn’t about achieving the task, as putting rewards, money, wealth, power, social status behind that task. A task which few people can do or enjoy.

I used to ask that question all the time in other MMO forums. The paradigm with the 5-man dungeon. Ultimately, it seems like it’s not that the 5-man dungeon is fun. Hooking up with strangers to get yelled at by mall cops turned weekend generals and being called badz and all that, just to be able to get a piece of armor you might want, or some gold to buy something else you want, because that’s the only place to make money isn’t particularly fun. People would do it because it was the only way to make money.

So what if ‘every’ play style was equally rewarded with similar tokens?

I personally wouldn’t complain if a PvP player or hard core player that hates, say, housing could achieve “The Uber Sword of Awesome” by doing something other than placing a rug on the floor of their house (which, as it turns out, is the original place The Uber Sword of Awesome was rewarded).

Conversely, it seems like people that like to gate rewards and awesome items behind ‘only’ the paradigm of the old 5-man dungeon, aren’t as keen on my getting some money for placing the rug in my house.

And that says a lot about the character of those different types of people.

In my opinion, of course.

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

Phadde.7362:

notebene.3190:

So sure, if it’s challenging content for challenging content’s sake, I hope you get it.

Thanks =)
In an Mmorpg, I feel that the “euphoria” of defeating a challenging encounter is enhanced if you get some sort of token to attach to your character as a proof that you’ve accomplished it. It’s primal pride, but in a rpg, it’s a fun part of the game!

If I could get that same token by doing 100 events, or something else, does that somehow remove the euphoria you would get from defeating that challenging content and receiving your token?

If you would not begrudge my token, then I’m fine with it.

My concern is measuring wealth relative to what other people don’t have that you have that concerns me.

That we continue to make MMOs like that, to mimic what Western civilization has nurtured us away from, rather than exploring something new to see if it could be done better, is a missed opportunity.

And who knows, maybe that’s what the planet is trying to tell us, and it’s just prepping itself to let the bees have a crack at it next.

Well, I’m thinking of these rewards being some kind of cosmetic trophy for completing specific, challenging encounters. It almost makes having trophies like these redundant if anyone can get it by doing something else entirely. The purpose is lost.

Of course that leads the whole oh so poupluar “i want just more challenge” argument ad absurdum and shows that in reality that it only means : i want challenge only to show off how great i am .. else i really don’t care about the challenge.