Guild Wars 2

Every once in a while a very interesting addon pops up and I am reminded that the potential for UI customization (and a lot more!) exists in GW2 as well, but is not permitted by the rules.

Today, I’ve seen a reddit thread regarding Combat Mode 2.0. I was instantly reminded of the countless hours I have spent trying to achieve the perfect UI in WoW, even though in the end I went back to using the default UI. I know that many players prefer control over their UI, over the size, color and position of everything.

People have different views on how the game UI can best relay important information to them, and because of that it’s hard for devs to come up with a “perfect” UI that everyone will be pleased with. I think it would be a much better experience for everyone if people could customize the UI as much as possible.

The subject has been discussed many times before, but maybe if devs can see how awesome GW2 addons can get (while they’re against the rules, no less!), one day we might be granted the freedom to play with the UI. This is not the first time a great addon appears. Still, only people very passionate about GW2 and modding do these things, because their practical use is very limited. They might even get people banned If players would be given some freedom to customize the UI, then surely interest would rise to make even more great mods.

The game have an UI. Use it or left IMO.
A modified UI can give some advantage… Skills positions, colours, Bars positions… A user with the default UI play the whole game and the user with the modified UI play the same game with ( maybe) some advantage ( More free space in the screen for example).
Its true that the default UI can be better but if you play pvp with a modified UI you maybe can have more free space in the screen and see the player that with the default UI you cant see it.

Please, The read the word MAYBE before flame me.

P.S: I play a lot other games where addons are “must be” and sincerely, they are a game killer. For example: You need X addon/mod for be better in PVP bcoz with the addon/mod you have more data about ( put here anything like agro, rage, HP, mana, etc, etc..)

Fox Soul.4809:

The game have an UI. Use it or left IMO.
A modified UI can give some advantage… Skills positions, colours, Bars positions… A user with the default UI play the whole game and the user with the modified UI play the same game with ( maybe) some advantage ( More free space in the screen for example).
Its true that the default UI can be better but if you play pvp with a modified UI you maybe can have more free space in the screen and see the player that with the default UI you cant see it.

Please, The read the word MAYBE before flame me.

P.S: I play a lot other games where addons are “must be” and sincerely, they are a game killer. For example: You need X addon/mod for be better in PVP bcoz with the addon/mod you have more data about ( put here anything like agro, rage, HP, mana, etc, etc..)

I had a hard time reading your post, but I think I got most of it.

What you say is true at the end, about mods. Like in WoW DPS monitors, and the like are killers and can really ruin a game.

However, I believe what the OP was saying is if we only had the opportunity to modify JUST the UI each player could enhance their own experience and put together a UI that reflects their values in terms of game play.

I understand players fear of pvpers gaining unfair advantages because of this. However, I believe the fear is unfounded. In Guild Wars 1, you were able to adjust your UI (built into the game) and customize graphics using textMOD and no one ever called foul. In fact as a Guild Wars 1 vet who has played over 5,000 hours and pvped A LOT (GvG, HoH/HA, TA).

I can honestly say there was never a moment I ever heard anyone say “Oh man dude, you have GOT to use this UI mod because it is just going to send your game above and beyond!” Let’s not forget GW1 was a “Competitive RPG”, titled that by Anet themselves. If there were going to be pvp imbalance issues relating to the UI, it would have happened there and it would have been a big issue. But it never was.

I understand the fear players have about players having an unfair advantage in pvp (being that you can customize the UI), but what I have learned from experience is that it is simply not as big an issue as people would think.

I also understand Anet’s desire to have a very minimal UI to really show case the game in their vision to players, and that is great! Have that as the default, make it look as good as you can! However, allow players to tinker with the UI a little like in GW1. I would love to be able to completely hide the mini map. In fact I would love to be able to hide everything BUT the skillbar to maximize immersion. (Yes, I know you can shift+h to hide all UI elements, but I would like to see the skill bar still)

It is my hope one day Anet will relax their restrictions on UI modding, and not allow their vision of how they want the game to be experienced, to get in the way of the individual player simply enjoying it.

Fox Soul.4809:

The game have an UI. Use it or left IMO.
A modified UI can give some advantage… Skills positions, colours, Bars positions… A user with the default UI play the whole game and the user with the modified UI play the same game with ( maybe) some advantage ( More free space in the screen for example).
Its true that the default UI can be better but if you play pvp with a modified UI you maybe can have more free space in the screen and see the player that with the default UI you cant see it.

Please, The read the word MAYBE before flame me.

P.S: I play a lot other games where addons are “must be” and sincerely, they are a game killer. For example: You need X addon/mod for be better in PVP bcoz with the addon/mod you have more data about ( put here anything like agro, rage, HP, mana, etc, etc..)

I agree with you at some points, that there needs to be a line drawn in the sand. However, the line doesn’t need to be a straight one. The combat mode addon is not IMHO giving any unfair advantage. Also, granting the ability to change the UI is in no way an advantage because everyone should be able to do it. In GW1, this was built right in the game, you could change the appearance any way you wanted. When everyone has equal ability to change the UI for instance, there is no advantage granted.

The problem with your argument of having more free space is that it is inherently in the game and is made available by buying a larger monitor. By extension, you could even say that this is pay to win because you throw down more money, get a larger monitor or two and all of a sudden you have a significantly increased FOV and amount of free space on your screen.

Basically, my counter argument to you is that the unfair advantages you listed off are already present in the game, and this addon will not be a “must have” because it simply changes the style of gameplay. I do not believe it will create some ridiculous advantage for anyone, besides, most people want to use it for PvE just to enjoy the game more – just like we all wanted (and still do want) increased FoV… We just want to take our enjoyment of the game to the next level.

There are things that I believe are ok and things I think are not.

I think that GW2 offering a combat mode option would be stellar. I do NOT believe that offering ways of seeing the DPS of other people is ok.

What I do think ANet needs to do is offer more gameplay options. Scaling and repositioning the UI elements should not be and issue at all.

Just add UI customization to the list of not allowed since it was a feature in GW1.

UI looks cleaner in some ways. It’s still not as clean as Elder Scrolls.
*I like the addion of a reticle. But I don’t like the design of it. For me it should be more semi-transparent.
*Map, I would like campus option.
*Whats that thing above the skills?

Onshidesigns.1069:

UI looks cleaner in some ways. It’s still not as clean as Elder Scrolls.
*I like the addion of a reticle. But I don’t like the design of it. For me it should be more semi-transparent.
*Map, I would like campus option.
*Whats that thing above the skills?

The thing above the skills, from the top down, is your endurance bar, your health bar, and your initiative count

WoW has tons of addons, and while it is true that some of them do offer a clear advantage (Deadly boss mod, for example), using it is both allowed by the devs and player personal choice. You can be good at raiding without it, no doubt, but it gives bad players who want it a real helping hand with raiding. Personally I think it makes the game similar to Guitar Hero (omg alarm alarm push button 3 now strafe to the left), but I do appreciate the hard work put into the mod and how it drastically changes the way users experience raiding content. If it helps people get into the game, learn the mechanics, I can’t say I disagree with it’s use, even if it’s basically “training wheels mode”.

If something as simple as an UI mod can make the game enjoyable for more people, I’m all for it, even if said players have an easier time in PvE than a player not using it. So all cooldowns show up on the screen, I can have a good time learning the mechanics by heart and counting myself, other people can have a good time whacking the boss with the help of a mod. As long as the boss drops dead and loot is to be had, I don’t see a reason to not be in the same group!

This needn’t be the case in GW2, as how far they’d let addons go is dev personal choice – so far, as seen here , they’ve said “if it gives players ANY advantage, it’s against the rules”. And that’s not a bad position at all to have. I think it’s a great start that we have that answer from an Anet employee. I’ve found it after I have created this thread and I was quite happy that some of the mods can be used without fear of punishment – including Combat mode!

Now that this is settled, I hope more talented people will start making addons. Who knows, maybe sometime in the future if interest is high enough, devs might even be persuaded to talk more about addons and give mod makers a helping hand to get the customization ball rolling.

I would love to see some UI addons. As a WoW vet myself, having dps/heal meters made running the same dungeons/raids over and over again much more fun. It helped me progress my own ability because i was receiving real-time feedback on my effective heals/over heals. It also provided me with feedback on what kind of dps i was getting from different rotos and strats, allowing me to better determine how i could play more effectivly. And as a healer, it was also fun to see how much damage i could sneak in by the end of the run.

Now-a-days, dps meters are a pipe dream (see the way they were implemented in SWTOR), and add-ons of any sort don’t exist in newer games.

What I would really like to see in GW2 is a freakin cooldown monitor. I play an ele, and it would be very helpful to get a little notification or a timer-window that would let me know when fire grab was off cooldown if i’m attuned to an element that is not fire.

Scrambles.2604:

I would love to see some UI addons. As a WoW vet myself, having dps/heal meters made running the same dungeons/raids over and over again much more fun. It helped me progress my own ability because i was receiving real-time feedback on my effective heals/over heals. It also provided me with feedback on what kind of dps i was getting from different rotos and strats, allowing me to better determine how i could play more effectivly. And as a healer, it was also fun to see how much damage i could sneak in by the end of the run.

Now-a-days, dps meters are a pipe dream (see the way they were implemented in SWTOR), and add-ons of any sort don’t exist in newer games.

What I would really like to see in GW2 is a freakin cooldown monitor. I play an ele, and it would be very helpful to get a little notification or a timer-window that would let me know when fire grab was off cooldown if i’m attuned to an element that is not fire.

Yeah, I would love to see a personal dps/healing meter just for my own amusement. Personally, I don’t care what other’s numbers are.

One of the things I loved Recount for in WoW was to be able to look at my spells and see what I’m doing right and what I’m doing wrong to try to improve.

GW1 UI was already customizable to a great extent. It was an awesome feature, I spend a lot of time changing things and researching “my” version of the UI.

I felt (very) disappointed when we aint got something like that in GW2.

Onshidesigns.1069:

*Map, I would like campus option.

What is “campus option”?

I actually preferred the minimap in a compas we had back in the GW2 BWE

I dislike the minimap of today.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Scrambles.2604:

I would love to see some UI addons. As a WoW vet myself, having dps/heal meters made running the same dungeons/raids over and over again much more fun. It helped me progress my own ability because i was receiving real-time feedback on my effective heals/over heals. It also provided me with feedback on what kind of dps i was getting from different rotos and strats, allowing me to better determine how i could play more effectivly. And as a healer, it was also fun to see how much damage i could sneak in by the end of the run.

Now-a-days, dps meters are a pipe dream (see the way they were implemented in SWTOR), and add-ons of any sort don’t exist in newer games.

What I would really like to see in GW2 is a freakin cooldown monitor. I play an ele, and it would be very helpful to get a little notification or a timer-window that would let me know when fire grab was off cooldown if i’m attuned to an element that is not fire.

Yeah, I would love to see a personal dps/healing meter just for my own amusement. Personally, I don’t care what other’s numbers are.

One of the things I loved Recount for in WoW was to be able to look at my spells and see what I’m doing right and what I’m doing wrong to try to improve.

Yeah, i forgot the name for it until you said it. Recount was awesome. I was never one to harass/exclude people due to DPS, but i really liked the competitive element it brought between group members….whether it’s trying to get #1 on dps, or trying to get #1 on dps amongst your fellow healers

I’m going to necro this because a friend and I were discussing this today.

Guild Wars 1 could use its included modifiable UI as justification for disallowing mods. Guild Wars 2 provides no such justification, and in fact, several things about the UI are inherently flawed.

For example, Conditions and Boons. The game has WAY too many particle effects to keep track of conditions on your actual character model (not to mention small ones like Asura). This means that Conditions and Boons need to be VISIBLE and EASILY IDENTIFIABLE. Having all conditions be red-backed and all boons be gold-backed was a good start, but having to identify the boon/condition by the shape of the icon is just forcing the player to look more at the UI, which is what the Devs stated they didn’t want in the first place. The icons are also at the moment WAY too small.

You also cannot separate the Boon/Condition bars like you could the Condition/Hex/Enchantment bars in Guild Wars 1.

Basically, the developers are maintaining their no-mod stance without retaining any of the inherent mutability that their first game had. And that just makes no sense at all, from any standpoint.

For those of you talking about how mods give people certain advantages…There is no reason you can’t go out and get those mods yourself, you know. It is YOUR choice not to use them.

got this from an article

“Allowing players to play the game rather than the UI is the third rule. This rule is responsible for the lovely and minimalistic UI, which is meant to convey as much information as necessary while staying more or less out of the way. Important combat information isn’t necessarily going to be relayed through the UI so much as through the game world. Taking risks, ArenaNet’s fourth guiding rule, allows devs to iterate and try new designs without being terrified of failure. Not all ideas work out, but learning why they didn’t work out is key to growth.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/arenanet-explains-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2/

Krosslite.1950:

got this from an article

“Allowing players to play the game rather than the UI is the third rule. This rule is responsible for the lovely and minimalistic UI, which is meant to convey as much information as necessary while staying more or less out of the way. Important combat information isn’t necessarily going to be relayed through the UI so much as through the game world. Taking risks, ArenaNet’s fourth guiding rule, allows devs to iterate and try new designs without being terrified of failure. Not all ideas work out, but learning why they didn’t work out is key to growth.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/arenanet-explains-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2/

And yet they released the api tools, and now people either run those on another screen, alt tab out, or run them on a mobile device. They may as well just put them in game at this point regardless of what they have as rules.

In WoW I spent more time trying to customize the UI than actually playing the game. That proves something’s wrong with the game inherently, otherwise that would not have been necessary.

Allowing addons is an excuse for designers to release shoddy games.

marnick.4305:

Allowing addons is an excuse for designers to release shoddy games.

These kinds of statements just baffle me.

Krosslite.1950:

got this from an article

“Allowing players to play the game rather than the UI is the third rule. This rule is responsible for the lovely and minimalistic UI, which is meant to convey as much information as necessary while staying more or less out of the way. Important combat information isn’t necessarily going to be relayed through the UI so much as through the game world. Taking risks, ArenaNet’s fourth guiding rule, allows devs to iterate and try new designs without being terrified of failure. Not all ideas work out, but learning why they didn’t work out is key to growth.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/arenanet-explains-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2/

The problem with this is that the indicators for each condition/boon are not uniquely identifiable enough in the complete particle spam that this game is made up of. There’s no way you’re going to identify that you have several terrible conditions on you if you’re taking shelter in the middle of an Elementalist’s Geyser, or Lava Font to lure mobs into it.

So Anet here has 2 options: Increase the visibility and distinctiveness for boons/conditions on screen on the player model (especially for small ones like Asura) or improve the size/appearance of the icons in the UI.

I’d really like to get a dev response to this, because I’ve had a lot of feedback from people that the UI is what keeps them from enjoying GW2 fully.

marnick.4305:

In WoW I spent more time trying to customize the UI than actually playing the game. That proves something’s wrong with the game inherently, otherwise that would not have been necessary.

Allowing addons is an excuse for designers to release shoddy games.

It’s at least better than having to settle for whatever UI that the developers settle on, which I guarantee you, will be unsatisfactory to at least one person playing the game somewhere. It just makes more sense to support addons just so people can have the UI look the way they want it. Because while person A might dislike trying to pick out conditions/boons through particle effects on the character model, person B might have no problem with it.

Whether ANET does it, or a third party, UI customization needs to be done. It is an essential aspect of MMOs. Not doing this is bush league, pure and simple; and gives the impression of a cheap F2P game. Wait…..I’m starting to come to the realization that that’s what this game is.
It’s literally the 1st thing I do in a new MMO – fiddling with the UI. I would guess a lot of players are the same way. It’s funny, too. Some people I know didn’t even give the game a chance because in their words “it felt cheap”. This is one of those reasons for that. Although a lot of corners were cut by the devs in general in terms of designing features for an MMO, at least I know that GW1 had a great flexible UI, so this gives me hope.

Mercurio.4970:

Whether ANET does it, or a third party, UI customization needs to be done. It is an essential aspect of MMOs. Not doing this is bush league, pure and simple; and gives the impression of a cheap F2P game. Wait…..I’m starting to come to the realization that that’s what this game is.
It’s literally the 1st thing I do in a new MMO – fiddling with the UI. I would guess a lot of players are the same way. It’s funny, too. Some people I know didn’t even give the game a chance because in their words “it felt cheap”. This is one of those reasons for that. Although a lot of corners were cut by the devs in general in terms of designing features for an MMO, at least I know that GW1 had a great flexible UI, so this gives me hope.

The problem is that the devs don’t want you meddling with their precious painterly UI which, by the way, has been ruined by the BIG RED BUTTON of a health bar in the center of your skill bar (Diablo II much?).

Sometimes, I feel like the developers try too hard to be artsy and don’t focus enough on the practicalities of a situation.

TLDR to the devs: You tried to make your game super pretty but in the process removed practical functionality of your UI and have reduced what actually happens in the game to an incandescent bloom-riddled display of particle effects.

I understand you wanted to make your game abit prettier than the default GW1 skill-cast effects, but this might have been taking it abit too far.

Fox Soul.4809:

The game have an UI. Use it or left IMO.
A modified UI can give some advantage… Skills positions, colours, Bars positions… A user with the default UI play the whole game and the user with the modified UI play the same game with ( maybe) some advantage ( More free space in the screen for example).
Its true that the default UI can be better but if you play pvp with a modified UI you maybe can have more free space in the screen and see the player that with the default UI you cant see it.

Please, The read the word MAYBE before flame me.

P.S: I play a lot other games where addons are “must be” and sincerely, they are a game killer. For example: You need X addon/mod for be better in PVP bcoz with the addon/mod you have more data about ( put here anything like agro, rage, HP, mana, etc, etc..)

Following this logic, everyone should also be using the same screen resolution and use the same keyboard and mouse. If I play in a high screen resolution on an HD screen I will have more free space showing than someone playing a 3:4 aspect ratio screen with lower resolution. If I have a gaming keyboard or mouse, then I can do some things others can’t. You can’t use the equality logic because it isn’t equal as it is now. Also, everyone should theoretically have access to the same mods and therefore be able to emulate a UI someone else is using (like one with a lot of space on their screen).

I just wish they do something about the chat window and settings.

Regarding the argument of a level playing field…

If everyone has access to the same mods, or everyone has the ability to modify the UI in the same way, then it’s still fair.

Someone with one selection of skills / traits may have an advantage over another person with different skills / traits. This might give them an advantage in PvP, so should those varying selections be allowed? Of course.

Customization is a core element of any RPG based game. There’s no reason the UI shouldn’t be an element in this if it contributes to the enjoyment of the UI and game experience. It’s just a matter of personal preference to show information which is relevant to what one’s doing. I think most game companies are more concerned about things like automation.

The design choices for the average player vs. someone who is a hard-core / end-content raider will typically oppose each other. A product manager wants to make the UI slick and beautiful so people are attracted to the game, which is great…. I love beautiful UIs and pictures of my pets… but they contribute nothing to encounters where i want to focus on the fight). When I raid I want the option to eliminate elements which don’t add value. I also want to rearrange elements on the screen in a way which allows me to focus more on the encounter and less on the HUD. For example by removing xp bar / achievements / pet pictures, while placing my buffs / conditions exactly where i want them so i’m not constantly looking at different parts of the screen just to get everything i need from the HUD. More time looking at the HUD is less time enjoying the encounter.

In this way, WoW’s UI configurability might be unparalleled. It’s certainly a feature that I miss.

I want a game that’s challenging, but not because I’m struggling with character controls or UI elements.

As this discussion has already run its course some time ago, the thread is now closed.