Guild Wars 2

I figured it would be far more beneficial to have an intellectual discussion over the writing merits of how Guild Wars could improve it’s story elements instead of hashing out little responses in other threads – which usually leads to people rambling on about irrelevant and meaningless interpretations.

So to preface, please do keep an open mind. My points are in no way meant to suggest that the story of GW2 needs to be more violent etc. Usually when the base of this topic arises, it always goes in the direction of “well adults like children’s stories too” or “death doesn’t make a good story”. As much as those could be valid arguments, they are completely devoid of the actual problem.

The Value of Adult Concepts
In my opinion, adult stories by definition are meant to push people in directions that go beyond simple notions. We see these concepts take place, even in Disney movies, when a character we’ve become emotionally attached to dies (citing one of my favorites; The Lion King). It’s a powerful moment and thrusts our emotions into that deep realm where the heart of mature stories comes from.

However! The issue is not whether a story has an adult concept or not. The value comes from how you treat those concepts. This is precisely where mainstream PG-13-esque stories fail. There are some exceptions, of course, yet the overall majority are unable to grasp it.

The Treatment of Adult Concepts
In order to understand the difference between a minute concept and a meaningful one, you first have the realize that adult elements should be taken seriously. In other words, the impact should be at least equal to if not greater than the overall theme of the story.

Right off the bat you can see how a Disney story doesn’t quite fit. Sure it has adult concepts, yet they’re not given the amount of value required for a meaningful adult repertoire. Instead, these concepts are treated as gimmicks; a minor toy for emotional disparity only later retorting back to that happy, all smiles feel-good state. This isn’t a bad thing, mind you. Yet it simply degrades the power of the adult concepts.

A prime example is the latest of J.J. Abrams Star Trek series. Spoilers exempt, the end of that film had an incredible step towards a substantial adult element, yet it was destroyed moments later when we realize that all is good. As a result, the audience was treated like they’re bi-polar and the film ended. Ouch.

Impact That Matters
Building a sincere & mature story component means honing in on the emotions that cater to those aspects and keeping them throughout the entirety of the story, even when the events themselves have ended. You’ve implemented a great deal of adult concepts, yet none of it has been able to hold ground long enough to be relevant to most players interests. Dragons, wars, pillaging and death. All of it being shut down by dailies and shop items. Even the LS has people diverting their attention to if you care about the game or are simply dragging it like a dead horse.

Breaking free of that mold means showing the power of those concepts. In order to do this, you have to give all of those aspects a purposeful encounter that later develops and evolves into further complex conditions. These conditions become the driving force of character interaction and atmosphere.

An example of how to achieve this goal while still keeping to your T-rating; let’s take the events of Marjory and her sister, Belinda. I’m not going to draw out any lavish details, but a general concept should still make the point.

Let’s say that Belinda’s death was so traumatic, that Marjory begins to change. Her personality starts to shift towards anger and hate. She begins to push her friends aside and even starts to discourage her relationship with Kasmeer. Revenge becomes overwhelming, to the point of self-mutilation. Perhaps Marjory ends up making a brash decision during battle that results with her losing an arm.

Now being less effective in the fight, Marjory is beginning to lose traction. She starts to feel worthless and pushes herself further away from friends and family. This, of course, affects the characters around her. Kasmeer has tried everything to uplift Jory’s spirits, yet to no avail, she begins to feel deep guilt. Kasmeer’s heart takes a plunge and attempts to commit suicide, yet is saved by Braham. It’s then that the head-strong brute fumbles, helping Kasmeer yet sacrificing his own life. . .

This can go on forever, yet that’s the kind of value required. It’s a matter of keeping everything within the fabric of those powerful moments. One effective element should become a force that drives to further elements, rooting your story into something compelling and memorable.

Good luck. I have no faith in the writing getting any better.

Sometimes I wish there was a method to create player-made stories into the game like some MMOs could. At the very least, one could enjoy the musings of a writer with different values of the elements of a story.

I agree, that with some of the writing in GW2, I get attached to characters but rarely is that attachment tried and tested. In general, I wish there were more quests and interactions with the various characters of the story as well so a stronger bond can be formed.

My expectations aside, I agree but it’s tough making suggestions to the lore/story. If such themes aren’t explored gradually (not rushed!) it kind of feels hamfisted to me, inserting some suicide and gloom suddenly making me wonder how sudden such was executed.

Please no depressing crap, I play GW2 to get away from that.

Please define “adult concepts” and “meaningful.”

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Two big concepts which are not relegated to “adult concepts” would make the story better for having them though:

1. Worldbuilding. There is a whole world to Tyria, and the problem is how the writing seems to always focus like a laser pointer on one particular aspect. To the exclusion of everything else. While the fight against the Mordrem is going on, no other plots or events are in motion elsewhere. Every other aspect of Tyria is “on hold” through this crisis, except when it’s needed to further the story going on around the Mordrem. This isn’t good and it doesn’t foster the idea of the world as a “living entity” which proceeds without the players’ presence.

2. Consequences. Not necessarily death, but actions and developments need to have an impact on characters and locations rather than being shrugged off or handled in a simple one-note matter. You chose Belinda’s death, so I’ll run with that. Aside from Marjory’s grief in the scene and Kasmeer wishing she could help, nobody seems to care. We should see the family at a monument or a tombstone, have a chance to see others she knew make themselves known and go “we’re going to miss her”. She was a two-bit excuse for shoving pathos onto the Kas/Jory pair, and remains that way until she starts having more to her than what happened.

Oh dear kitten, I would absolutely love it if all of the fluff added in to these LS updates, in terms of character dev and whatnot, were more mature.

Tobias is more on the right path here to my way of thinking. What novels draw me in the most? The ones with fully realized worlds, with complexity of interaction. Peter Hamilton, Lois Bujold, S.M. Stirling, they all have a gift at making worlds where while there may be central characters, the whole world keeps on going on its own. They delve into the economics, the demographics, the politics, all without losing any impetus of action.

“Adult” doesn’t have to mean grimdark sex and violence. It just has to assume the person ingesting the story is not an idiot and can handle multiple threads.

Now, I read an essay — by Bujold, I believe, or by Connie Willis maybe? — which said that a good book leaves some of the story up to the reader. That in fact the books we love the most come out that way because we collaborate in it. She spoke of a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser story with one of them eating a fruit while sitting on a ship deck, and how immersed she was that she could taste that perfect fruit, feel the wind and sun. So in that respect, we the players are providing our own share of the imagination — I know that I let the smallness of LA, the scattered civilians in the burning wreckage, I let all that translate in my mind to the lore-appropriate 35K dead, 5K survivors, and what sort of impact that level of tragedy would have on my characters and on the world.

Too bad the world didn’t react as strongly. Economic impact from the obliteration of the trade hub of the continent? Zilch. Massive amounts of NPC discussion of it? Nada. The NPCs in the Salma District to this day talk about the LA caravan being late. Think about the US and world reaction to 9-11 and multiply that hugely and you’ll have an idea of how drastically Tyria should have been affected.

And we have five interacting races, each with their own agendas, each with their own threats diverting their resources. We have a minor introduction of prejudice against Sylvari. Why are these things not factors wherever we go?

I know it is a phenomenally difficult job to revise all the dialogue of all the NPCs we encounter, especially the voice acted ones. Yet surely we could get some reaction to world events visible as we travel the world? Have multiple fronts of action?

Yes, all this has to take game play and development time into consideration. I understand that, and likely am just daydreaming here about having a fully complex world to run around in. At least through RP I can form a small consensual reality where the global events do have global and individual impact, and let my imagination fill in the gaps. I just wish the gaps were a tad smaller

Your concepts are sound, although I’d claim the particular example of yours is not really adult storytelling as much as it is “teenage angsty storytelling” which I don’t think is particularly better and I’m afraid it gets confused with so called “mature storytelling”.

The point of having change in characters is to illustrate concepts of significance. You can’t simply just go “well, bad stuff happens, and then people react badly”. I mean you can, but that is not really particularly more engaging than anything else. Naturally this just isn’t possible when you introduce satellite characters just to be killed for shock value. But you can write stories, about say, subtle changes in someone’s demeanor that will never disappear due to trauma, and other stuff that lets the audience picks up the pieces rather than with the approach of holding a neon sign saying “wow, she is so kittened up now” But I guess this game tends to like neon signs.

I think what you really want to illustrate is to have impact, a storyline has to have real impacts, as in not killing off no-names or what not. On one end, we have the cartoony aspect where nothing really matters and our hero comes to save everything blah blah blah.

There have been good examples of stuff that worked, such as destroying Lion’s Arch; it wasn’t all just death and destruction, but there was that and it had lingering effects. On the other hand, a lot of season 1 just felt like “Hey, let’s watch Scarlet ruin everything while everyone runs around like their heads are cut off because she’s totally ahead of you”. That’s just simply banal.

In the end, it’s not really a point to label the relative maturity of concepts but rather if the story sets out to do what it intends to do. Unfortunately, the writing often usually doesn’t aspire to be much, and thus comes across as lacking. Sup Mr. Tree Savior guy.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Relative to saying “death doesn’t make a story good”. Like I said, that’s not what I’m suggesting. The problem is that GW2 already has adult concepts. They simply haven’t implemented them correctly or at least in a meaningful way.

ArchonWing.9480:

Your concepts are sound, although the particular suggestion of yours is not really adult storytelling as much as it is “teenage angsty storytelling” which I don’t think is particularly better and I’m afraid it gets confused with so called “mature storytelling”.

That was a very narrow and blunt example. Given appropriate details, it could have far more significance. I suppose something I should have mentioned is how character’s should be dense in their own right.

As it stands, the lot of characters in GW2 are way too versatile. You could pretty much swap them around and nothing much would change. Instead, especially when you have such a vast selection, they all need to be more focused and centered around deeper conditions. So when there’s collision, it provides a powerful event that then leads to further conditioning.

Characters are nothing more than the harbinger for emotive emphasis. Constructing meaningful adult storytelling inevitably means taking advantaged of how far you can push those emotions so that the audience is able to develop better connections for or against; then leading them on a well-rounded path.

Blackmoon.6837:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Relative to saying “death doesn’t make a story good”. Like I said, that’s not what I’m suggesting. The problem is that GW2 already has adult concepts. They simply haven’t implemented them correctly or at least in a meaningful way.

ArchonWing.9480:

Your concepts are sound, although the particular suggestion of yours is not really adult storytelling as much as it is “teenage angsty storytelling” which I don’t think is particularly better and I’m afraid it gets confused with so called “mature storytelling”.

That was a very narrow and blunt example. Given appropriate details, it could have far more significance. I suppose something I should have mentioned is how character’s should be dense in their own right.

As it stands, the lot of characters in GW2 are way too versatile. You could pretty much swap them around and nothing much would change. Instead, especially when you have such a vast selection, they all need to be more focused and centered around deeper conditions. So when there’s collision, it provides a powerful event that then leads to further conditioning.

Characters are nothing more than the harbinger for emotive emphasis. Constructing meaningful adult storytelling inevitably means taking advantaged of how far you can push those emotions so that the audience is able to develop better connections for or against; then leading them on a well-rounded path.

Yea I understand, it’s just that there’s a very fine line between these kinds of things.

I think for that to work, they would have to really have to decide on what to focus on. At the moment, I guess they are trying to focus on a few characters, but a lot of it just isn’t being bought though I guess Taimi actually works to some degree taking things into context.

As it is now, I think the writers have to take a step back because the question of “What are we trying to express beyond having stuff to happen?”though I guess that is standard RPG fare.

Goose.5196:

Good luck. I have no faith in the writing getting any better.

Well I feel just the opposite. I’ve only seen improvements in story treatments and I have faith it will continue.

Peace.

Read Blackmoon’s post…
and totally agree.

Do you not think it’s to do with a lack of “real” stories within a fantasy setting?

I’ve always felt that it’s still “Fantasy” stories being told in a fantasy setting.

I don’t think “Adult” is the right word for the topic OP is trying to portray. I’d say that “Substantial” is a better word.

You look at the Order of Whispers storyline up through the assault on Claw Island (not to give away any spoilers) and cast of characters, and it feels excellently done. What happens there (although if one really thinks about it, is not necessary at all) is frankly the only time in the story of GW2 where I genuinely felt attached, engaged, and as though a particular character close to the PC had a genuine story which kept me engaged and attached to said NPC.

The story doesn’t have to be all bad all the time. Actually, making it that way would be rather dreary and overly heavy-handed. Do remember that Tyria is in a constant state of war against Dragons, and that the PC is the hero and s part of a genuinely strong group of individuals. That said, story elements do not often reference past events or interactions as well as they should, and the relationships between entities appears to be quite thin throughout.

Frankly, the prospect of good and evil is a rather “childish” concept in its entirety., and one of what I believe to be one of the biggest caveats in the GW2 universe. Emphasizing the gray areas of stories and making the player feel as though they have committed a wrong (or done a true good for the world) leads to a very dynamic and interactive way of getting them involved in the world. I DM for a Pathfinder group and recently put my party in a position where at the beginning they wanted to kill a particular “enemy” NPC from their past adventures. They were assigned by their faction so to speak to clear a cave of bandits of an enemy faction. By the end, they realized that they slaughtered many non-combatants and people with real names and identities/stories, and were effectively rescued by their “enemy” who was affiliated with these people (how is a long story). With the realization that they were given the task to blindly kill innocents as a test of loyalty, the party had no idea how to respond and was faced with a very difficult decision on what to do and who to side with when asked to reveal what information they knew about their own faction, and demanded to make a commitment to the new one.

Simply, a “good vs bad” method of storytelling through interactive media always struck me as quite linear with little room for expansion and done so for the purpose of simplifying things as though the audience would be incapable of making a difficult decision or carefully planning their decisions to reach the best one for them.

Guild Wars 2 could take a page out of Pyscho-Pass and have a meaningful villain with complex societal issues.

We need a Makishima Shougo or a Kirito Kamui. A Smart Villain whose motives are neither White nor Black. But are out to drastically change society and the way people view it.

I am afraid that I have to disagree with the OP’s portrayal of what he/she considers, “adult,” storytelling. The specific example given is pretty much the opposite of mature or adult in my opinion. It does very much coincide with common young adult angst driven melodrama however.

Ashen.2907:

I am afraid that I have to disagree with the OP’s portrayal of what he/she considers, “adult,” storytelling. The specific example given is pretty much the opposite of mature or adult in my opinion. It does very much coincide with common young adult angst driven melodrama however.

Again, don’t take it at face-value. Think about the ways that those elements could be drawn out. The Kasmeer part, for example, doesn’t need to be crap where her hand is flailing in her forehead as she wails around with great despair. It’s nothing that pathetic. You have think about how all of the other minor interactions that help build her condition to the point that perhaps her committing suicide isn’t as simple as an abrupt decision. Maybe it’s something where there’s a new enemy which injects a poison that makes people a little insane. Marjory’s arm was cut off to save her from the the sting she received on her hand. She got the sting due to her overly zealous behavior of wanting to avenge her sister etc.

Perhaps Kasmeer even had a part in Marjory losing her arm, thus driving more motive for their relationship problems and also adding to why she would feel guilty. Kasmeer then gets stung herself, yet she’s unable to do anything about it. So she suffers the full effects. As a result, her mind ends up focusing too much on the guilt factor, which then leads her to a cliff, Braham stepping in to the rescue. Yet Kasmeer’s mental state has her fighting Braham, which results in him falling etc.

It can go even deeper than that and beyond!

In addition, that’s only minor stuff compared to the larger elements at hand. Again, you’ve got dragons and war etc. Toss all of those into the mix and the complexity goes further.

It’s important to understand the concept of triggers.

What to you seems to be “dark” story elements that you enjoy watching or reading about in your entertainment are actual life experiences for some people.

Some people do turn to self-harm when they are in bad situations and presenting that as a storyline element can trigger them to remember the bad experiences they’ve had in life.

Otherwise, different people find different themes more or less meaningful. It’s an MMO built to appeal to a wide audience so it can’t be too niche in any way. Like for myself, I’m aromantic so any romantic storyline is just a waste of screentime in any movie or anything. And some people like action more than others, some people people like thriller scenarios more than others.

You’ve got a little experience customization with the first storyline, and as for the rest of the game there are lots of different things you can do depending on what you enjoy.

But as for “improving” the storyline or making it more gritty, you’ve gotta keep in mind that a storyline improvement for some people may be a storyline pitfall for others depending on interests. The storyline for an MMO like this has to be generic.

If you really want in depth storyline you should get more involved with RP guilds or fanfic groups.

Maybe it’s a matter of semantics but when you talk about “adult content” it sounds like you’re referring to events having lasting consequences.

For the most part I agree. The concept of a Living World has largely been lost in the execution here. Events only matter in the immediate chapter of the story and in the locations where the story takes place. Outside of the characters remembering it happened in future chapters, the events have little to no impact.

When LA was destroyed, outside of a few isolated story areas, nobody seemed to care. Here was this economic hub of activity and it’s destruction isn’t even talked about in the other cities? Why is there no economic/cultural impact? Thousands died and nobody outside of LA seems to care.

Kessex hills got destroyed? Even with events spawning in other maps, none of the NPCs seemed to care. It was just business as usual. A region of Kryta destroyed and Queen Jennah isn’t talking about it or marshalling resources to fix it? Um, ok.

Scarlet is dead but we still have NPCs talking about strange and mysterious creatures of metal coming out of portals? Isn’t that a bit old news? Why can’t they move on?

We’ve found a new dragon and it’s attacking everywhere but most of the people don’t seem to notice or care.

It’s like the story is taking place in a vacuum. Actually making events have a presense in the world would go a long way to helping the issue.

Donari.5237:

Tobias is more on the right path here to my way of thinking. What novels draw me in the most? The ones with fully realized worlds, with complexity of interaction. Peter Hamilton, Lois Bujold, S.M. Stirling, they all have a gift at making worlds where while there may be central characters, the whole world keeps on going on its own. They delve into the economics, the demographics, the politics, all without losing any impetus of action.

Holy crap, someone else who knows who Lord Lieutenant Miles Vorkosigan is.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t think “Adult” is the right word for the topic OP is trying to portray. I’d say that “Substantial” is a better word.

You look at the Order of Whispers storyline up through the assault on Claw Island (not to give away any spoilers) and cast of characters, and it feels excellently done. What happens there (although if one really thinks about it, is not necessary at all) is frankly the only time in the story of GW2 where I genuinely felt attached, engaged, and as though a particular character close to the PC had a genuine story which kept me engaged and attached to said NPC.

I agree – that is the reason most people like Tybalt despite him being . . . on long reflection, a rather bad character. (People discussing in other topics about Braham being an idiot? Tybalt was there first, but he was more lovable.) The setup and the flow really hid that the first time through . . . and he has the benefit of having a real excuse as to why he doesn’t flee Claw Island – he’s missing part of a leg.

(I still think as an engineer he could have rigged explosives up to help. I would have written that step, honestly, to defend Tybalt as he sets a charge . . . let him die on the boat because the corruption got to him, or something. It’s better than all three of the mentors having the same point they all die in. Vary them for Dwayna’s sake, all of them aren’t the same character with the same abilities to call upon so you should have played to their characters! Forgal holds the line against impossible odds and goes out like a bad-kitty and nobody comes close to the boat as it escapes. Tybalt is talked out of a blaze of glorious explosives but has to die – but he can still reflect he went out with success and not another botch on his record. Sieran tries to use sylvari influence to set up brambles on the gate and run to the ship before the champion pounces over the wall to get between the ship and her and you can only watch as the ship leaves and she tries fighting it. Six GODS I with Claw Island was better handled.)

Ahem.

Blackmoon.6837:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Relative to saying “death doesn’t make a story good”. Like I said, that’s not what I’m suggesting. The problem is that GW2 already has adult concepts. They simply haven’t implemented them correctly or at least in a meaningful way.

Where in my post did I suggest otherwise? I just pointed out they need to pick two tools in particular and suddenly things get much . . . much better. Before needing to rely on “going dark”, there’s a better way. There were children shows which were very . . . VERY good at storytelling without needing to dip too deeply into what people nowadays think of as “adult” work. (Probably should change the title to “mature storytelling” since it doesn’t matter what age you’re at – child or adult, good storytelling is good storytelling.)

How do you know what I mean? The Hobbit was a repurposed bedtime story.

I’ll even go one better and fish it up: Sleeping Beauty . . . perhaps one of the best old Disney animated series. (Also a better dragon fight than Zhaitan. Slightly.)

Donari.5237:

“Adult” doesn’t have to mean grimdark sex and violence. It just has to assume the person ingesting the story is not an idiot and can handle multiple threads.

You’ve hit the nail on the head right there. Games aren’t novels and many game players aren’t readers and Anet has to make a story for everyone…or at least as many people as they can reach. I’ve brought this analogy up before, but I’ll repeat it here, because it applies.

On stage, you have to overact. Why? Because there’s no cameras for a close up and many people are sitting quite far away. Too far away to read the nuances of facial expression.

William Shatner on the original Star Trek is known for his over acting, but that’s partly due to his time traveling with a Shakespearean stage company.

The writers have to reach people who read AND people who don’t read. It’s not as easy as it sounds.

What you call adult writing isn’t adult writing at all. It’s writing for an audience. One of the first things I ever wrote was pretty bad…until you took into account who I wrote it for. It was pretty much made for that audience. To this day it remains my least favorite thing I’ve written. And to this day, there are people who still like it and remind me they like it.

Writers write to spec, at least good writers do. They can’t write more than most people can handle who don’t read often….or they’ll lose more people than they need to.

If you want a book, read a book. You’re not really going to find that writing in an MMO.

I’ve tried almost every MMO out there, and the only one that’s come close to “adult” writing is TSW in my opinion. And for that purpose it plays much like a single player game.

Blackmoon.6837:

As a result, the audience was treated like they’re bi-polar……

What exactly do you mean here?

People this is a game. I love Character development which is why I love works of people like J. Micheal Straczynski and Peter F Hamilton. It so happens those two have one thing in common that makes them great at character development. They invest in it, the characters change over time and there is a lot you’re expose to character wise before that change happens.

In a Game like Gw2 thats probably impossible to do. Lets take OPs suggestion. Yes it makes perfect sense that Jory might blame herself and more so us for Belinda’s death. we were all there busy on our “stupid” quest and we neglected what was truly important to her… her sister and she paid the ultimate price for it. Yes it would make sense that guild would slowly drive her to anger, hate potentially even madness. Here’s the thing though. These things dont happen over night. If in the next 2 or 3 episode the change started to manifest itself it would just feel wrong.. These things change gradually very slowly not all of a sudden out of the blues just like that.

In turn this would make it feel gimmicky, drama for the sake of following a cliche’ which would make it worst.

Now as for being more Adult oriented, isnt being strangled by a vine Adult enough? How about Jory’s facial expression? her leaving and needing some alone time away from all of us? How about her expression of sadness when she sees her ghost ? The children narrative is generally much more hopeful like you correctly pointed. We try to hide a lot of what death means from children, how it can destroy your balance. How it effects you. Generally its portrait nearly like a “celebration”… S/he went to a better place. S/he is with God now… etc..

Don’t think the writers chose to ton it down for the sake of being compatible with a children narrative. There is plenty of darkness in the story and has been since season 1. The refugees stories how they lost their loved ones come to mind. Some were pretty dark. Its just that the medium limits you on some things. Gradual character changes are tricky and if implemented they’d have to span a long time (multiple Living story seasons worth of long time) with only just subtle hints thrown in here and there. Subtle hints like Jory disagreeing with the team now and then. Dialog with Kasmeer starts to have a more serious ton etc…

In fact I am personally really looking forward to the next release to see what they’re going to do with Caithe’s story as it seems to me it might have some of these very elements discussed here based on the teaser we were shown on Tuesday. We’ll see.

No chance that the story is going to improve. Especially not since it has to be compatible with the chinese version too. In China for example its forbidden to depict dead people and their bodyparts like their skull. Also it has to be approved by the chinese media ministry. Things like freedom of speech, democracy and many others wont ever appear in this game.

“Games aren’t books.”

No, they aren’t. Books/ words use and work out your imagination. Games put you right into the world, and allow you to interact with said world and its characters through enjoyable mechanics.

Gaming is the most immersive form of storytelling. We, as gamers, have all the rights to wish for quality storytelling in this medium.

DiogoSilva.7089:

“Games aren’t books.”

No, they aren’t. Books/ words use and work out your imagination. Games put you right into the world, and allows you to interact with that world and its characters in an enjoyable way.

Gaming is the most immersive form of storytelling. We, as gamers, have all the rights to wish for quality storytelling in this medium.

Matter of opinion. Not even the best game, to me, is as immersive as a good book. And no game, in my opinion, can touch a great book.

I’m not even sure most games can equal really good movies for immersion, because there’s almost always something stupid happening in a game, having nothing to do with the writing.

This is particularly true of MMORPGs.

There are adult concepts in guild wars 2. families discuss lives and so on, its in the ambience.

There is also a LOT of sadness.

In lions arch read through the posters of the lost, for example. We’ve seen heroes come and go and death in-game.

Also, todays teaser is really, really forboding something terrible happening. I think its going to be Rytlock.

Schwarzseher.9873:

No chance that the story is going to improve. Especially not since it has to be compatible with the chinese version too. In China for example its forbidden to depict dead people and their bodyparts like their skull. Also it has to be approved by the chinese media ministry. Things like freedom of speech, democracy and many others wont ever appear in this game.

What are you talking about? A truck load of people have died in Gw2. Just last release we had 2 deaths.

As for skulls and body parts you the staff deathwish. Got 3 skulls right there with a spinal cord wrapped around for extra effect.

Kitsunami.6241:

There are adult concepts in guild wars 2. families discuss lives and so on, its in the ambience.

There is also a LOT of sadness.

In lions arch read through the posters of the lost, for example. We’ve seen heroes come and go and death in-game.

Also, todays teaser is really, really forboding something terrible happening. I think its going to be Rytlock.

This…

And I’d like to add one little thing. Story telling is just about the writing. Characters actions are part of the writing too. Something that struck me for example was when we first got to Scarlet’s house and you’d get Taimi limping in. That was a really powerful scene in my opinion. It made you feel sorry for Taimi because its naturally sad to see a child dealing with such things but at the same time you cannot help but admire her determination and drive. Thats part of the writing and story telling too. A lot of story is delivered there without a single word being spoken.

Galen Grey.4709:

Schwarzseher.9873:

No chance that the story is going to improve. Especially not since it has to be compatible with the chinese version too. In China for example its forbidden to depict dead people and their bodyparts like their skull. Also it has to be approved by the chinese media ministry. Things like freedom of speech, democracy and many others wont ever appear in this game.

What are you talking about? A truck load of people have died in Gw2. Just last release we had 2 deaths.

As for skulls and body parts you the staff deathwish. Got 3 skulls right there with a spinal cord wrapped around for extra effect.

I mean you wont see their bodies getting thrown into graves or their burial.
About the skulls: Did you ever noticed that they are missing on the centaur deathmarkers in queensdale?

Vayne.8563:

Matter of opinion. Not even the best game, to me, is as immersive as a good book. And no game, in my opinion, can touch a great book.

I’m not even sure most games can equal really good movies for immersion, because there’s almost always something stupid happening in a game, having nothing to do with the writing.

This is particularly true of MMORPGs.

By immersive, I meant about being inside the world and interacting with it. Obviously, quality has a huge factor in it. But you can have a decent/ mediocre story (by book standards) in a game to rival the level fo immersion a good book can offer, as long as the gameplay (and how it interacts with the soundtrack, graphics, story, etc) is successful at making you feel inside the world and care about the characters.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vayne.8563:

Matter of opinion. Not even the best game, to me, is as immersive as a good book. And no game, in my opinion, can touch a great book.

I’m not even sure most games can equal really good movies for immersion, because there’s almost always something stupid happening in a game, having nothing to do with the writing.

This is particularly true of MMORPGs.

By immersive, I meant about being inside the world and interacting with it. Obviously, quality has a huge factor in it. But you can have a decent/ mediocre story (by book standards) in a game to rival the level fo immersion a good book can offer, as long as the gameplay (and how it interacts with the soundtrack, graphics, story, etc) is successful at making you feel inside the world and care about the characters.

You should read Leah Hoyer’s interview…it’s still on the first page…if you haven’t already. She says some things I’ve already pointed out on the forums a few times (like lore not being story). But more than that, she goes on to say the problems with telling stories in games that both TV and movies don’t have and by extension that would apply to books too.

Games have mechanics. Things have to happen in games for the benefit of the game. Boss fights for instance, are scripted and repetitive, in just about all MMOs. Certainly all the MMORPGs I’ve played.

If a guy in a book repeated “Your weakness makes me sick” over and over again it would be ridiculous. In the fractals, it’s an audio cue that the boss has come down again. It’s definitely not immersive, but it’s part of the game.

There’s a certain type of immersion that can happen no matter what you’re doing. You can get immersed in anything. But games have too many balls to juggle to be as immersive as other forms of storytelling.

As I said, read the interview it touches on that (and it’s interesting anyway).

Schwarzseher.9873:

Galen Grey.4709:

Schwarzseher.9873:

No chance that the story is going to improve. Especially not since it has to be compatible with the chinese version too. In China for example its forbidden to depict dead people and their bodyparts like their skull. Also it has to be approved by the chinese media ministry. Things like freedom of speech, democracy and many others wont ever appear in this game.

What are you talking about? A truck load of people have died in Gw2. Just last release we had 2 deaths.

As for skulls and body parts you the staff deathwish. Got 3 skulls right there with a spinal cord wrapped around for extra effect.

I mean you wont see their bodies getting thrown into graves or their burial.
About the skulls: Did you ever noticed that they are missing on the centaur deathmarkers in queensdale?

well we had the blood prince coming out of his grave last halloween not sure if that counts, not a burial per-se strictly speaking even though he ends up resealed in there.

As for Deathmarkers, I have no clue they’re tied to the heart, if you finish the heart they disappear could that be it? I didnt read anywhere this was changed though considering they made a lot of changes to hearts in starter zones you could be right. Still I doubt it would have been because of cultural issues I mean if grave markers was really an issue wouldnt they have removed the many cemeteries in the game after all? Those are a lot more prominent then those little markers for sure.

Vayne.8563:

There’s a certain type of immersion that can happen no matter what you’re doing. You can get immersed in anything. But games have too many balls to juggle to be as immersive as other forms of storytelling.

Maybe GW2 and MMORPGs aren’t the best examples. But taking control of and/ or help characters in battle, being able to equip and customise them, and chatting with them, while at your own pace, with a great soundtrack on the background, and inside an artistically and mechanically enjoyable world, leads to a very immersive experience. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, among other single-player rpg franchises/ games, are generally great examples of that.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vayne.8563:

There’s a certain type of immersion that can happen no matter what you’re doing. You can get immersed in anything. But games have too many balls to juggle to be as immersive as other forms of storytelling.

Maybe GW2 and MMORPGs aren’t the best examples. But taking control of and/ or help characters in battle, being able to equip and customise them, and chatting with them, while at your own pace, with a great soundtrack on the background, and inside an artistically and mechanically enjoyable world, leads to a very immersive experience. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, among other single-player rpg franchises/ games, are generally great examples of that.

Sure, but single player games have less balls to juggle. If you want to compare single player games with MMOs go right ahead. But then I’ll just point out that Final Fantasy XIV is not nearly as immersive as many other Final Fantasy products and ESO is certainly not as immersive as many of the other Elder Scrolls products, and I’m pretty sure most people don’t find SWToR more immersive than most of Bioware’s products. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

And I’ve been very immersed in many games, and to me, none of them can touch a book for immersion.

Again, that whole darker means better attitude is being brought up. Try to ignore that, it only eludes the actual problem.

It’s a fair assessment though. Arguably, some of best adult stories have all kinds of sex, violence etc. Yet that’s not the inherent point of it. It’s not about shock value. A good adult story has those elements due to character development or even atmosphere. It’s meant to progress a mental state that ultimately gives opportunity for profound thought. I suppose part of the problem is the fear of having those thoughts. People not wanting to see any value from those situations, hence why a David Fincher film won’t be exceeding that new comic book adaptation in box office anytime soon. =P

In seriousness, the core of GW2’s faults stems from what others already mentioned – the lack of impact. Everyone appears so benign and nonchalant about the supposedly intense elements. The gravity of those events are taken with a grain of salt, which ultimately means GW2 has work to do.

As long as ANET has the average age of its’ playerbase and also how many of those people enjoy the Living Story content, they would be capable of gauging focusing the story to a more mature audience.

Like the OP said, this idea does not mean Game of Thrones Wars 2.

Blackmoon.6837:

Again, that whole darker means better attitude is being brought up. Try to ignore that, it only eludes the actual problem.

It’s a fair assessment though. Arguably, some of best adult stories have all kinds of sex, violence etc. Yet that’s not the inherent point of it. It’s not about shock value. A good adult story has those elements due to character development or even atmosphere. It’s meant to progress a mental state that ultimately gives opportunity for profound thought. I suppose part of the problem is the fear of having those thoughts. People not wanting to see any value from those situations, hence why a David Fincher film won’t be exceeding that new comic book adaptation in box office anytime soon. =P

In seriousness, the core of GW2’s faults stems from what others already mentioned – the lack of impact. Everyone appears so benign and nonchalant about the supposedly intense elements. The gravity of those events are taken with a grain of salt, which ultimately means GW2 has work to do.

And there are many great adult stories that don’t have any of that. Read some O’Henry short stories like “Gift of the Magi” or “After 20 Years”. They’re adult stories with no sex, violence or death.

In fact, adult stories as well as being dark and be heart warming.

Kids would just see stuff like that and screw up their faces in disgust…but some of us adults like happy endings occasionally.

You need light to balance dark.

Vayne.8563:

And there are many great adult stories that don’t have any of that. Read some O’Henry short stories like “Gift of the Magi” or “After 20 Years”. They’re adult stories with no sex, violence or death.

In fact, adult stories as well as being dark and be heart warming.

Kids would just see stuff like that and screw up their faces in disgust…but some of us adults like happy endings occasionally.

You need light to balance dark.

As true as that may be, you’re ignoring the fact that the Guild Wars franchise already has violence. Hell, GW1 is far more potent with it’s portrayal of such concepts than it’s successor.

Out of curiosity though, would you care to elaborate on what makes the stories, you cited, adult? Just because you call it adult doesn’t make it so. Please explain.

Honestly the quality of the writing between LS season 1 and 2 has improved – but it still isn’t where it should be.

I expect more serious themes, more complicated decisions and why not consequences for our actions?

I’d really like the story to give us choices not good vs bad but something vs something else.

Maybe the smallest of two evils. Maybe choices that aren’t as morally defined as the right one and the wrong one.

The personal story tried this sometimes – I remember the first time I had to choose between saving the orphanage and hospital it was a very interesting choice for me.

Maybe we could have some similar choices with actual consequences in the future.

Blackmoon.6837:

Vayne.8563:

And there are many great adult stories that don’t have any of that. Read some O’Henry short stories like “Gift of the Magi” or “After 20 Years”. They’re adult stories with no sex, violence or death.

In fact, adult stories as well as being dark and be heart warming.

Kids would just see stuff like that and screw up their faces in disgust…but some of us adults like happy endings occasionally.

You need light to balance dark.

As true as that may be, you’re ignoring the fact that the Guild Wars franchise already has violence. Hell, GW1 is far more potent with it’s portrayal of such concepts than it’s successor.

Out of curiosity though, would you care to elaborate on what makes the stories, you cited, adult? Just because you call it adult doesn’t make it so. Please explain.

There are many things that make stories adult stories. In the case of O’Henry, who’s considered one of the great short story writers of all time, it’s about the target audience which was adults. The topics he wrote about wouldn’t generally interests children. We were forced to read some of them in school and I can assure you most of the kids weren’t happy about it.

Adult means just that. It’s a story written for and targeting adults. Guild Wars 2 with it’s teen rating can’t really just target adults, because there are people playing who aren’t adults.

And there are people playing who don’t really read or follow stories all that well.

The violence comment I made was in response to another post. It has nothing to do with whether there is violence in Guild Wars 2 or not. My comment was about whether things like sex and violence are necessary for adult story telling.

I don’t believe they are.

The thing that I find makes MMO stories less interesting is the lack of insight into the characters. This would include emotions and thought process. Consider for a moment the differences between third person narratives and first person narratives in fiction. In a first-person narrative, the reader sees only the thoughts/feelings of the protagonist. In third-person narratives, you can sometimes see these from many character perspectives.

In MMO stories, our characters are like the protagonist in first-person narrative. It’s up to us to supply our own character’s thoughts and feelings, presuming we’re role-playing at all. We are then free to discern the thoughts and feelings of the NPC’s just as a first-person protagonist would.

We see tiny bits of this with the LW NPC’s, but nowhere near to the degree to make them fully comprehensible or interesting in themselves. MMO writers really cannot afford to invest the player time required to fully develop the NPC’s. Remember, they’re writing for a demographic that includes those who consider Short-Attention-Span-Theater to be too involved to bother with. Even if Marjory were to angst more over her sister’s death, how many players would complain about having to listen to her “whining.”

Schwarzseher.9873:

No chance that the story is going to improve. Especially not since it has to be compatible with the chinese version too. In China for example its forbidden to depict dead people and their bodyparts like their skull. Also it has to be approved by the chinese media ministry. Things like freedom of speech, democracy and many others wont ever appear in this game.

Sorry but vilifying the Chinese for every thing people disagree with in game is getting old … and in this case it’s totally wrong too.

For example: the death of Belinda (dead body hanging from vine), dead bodies all over first area and town in Dry Top, and death of Master of Peace in recent LS ep. If the above was the case then these would not be in the game at all.

Stop being a bigot.

Peace.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Adult concepts do not necessarily make a story “better” just for having them.

Two big concepts which are not relegated to “adult concepts” would make the story better for having them though:

1. Worldbuilding. There is a whole world to Tyria, and the problem is how the writing seems to always focus like a laser pointer on one particular aspect. To the exclusion of everything else. While the fight against the Mordrem is going on, no other plots or events are in motion elsewhere. Every other aspect of Tyria is “on hold” through this crisis, except when it’s needed to further the story going on around the Mordrem. This isn’t good and it doesn’t foster the idea of the world as a “living entity” which proceeds without the players’ presence.

2. Consequences. Not necessarily death, but actions and developments need to have an impact on characters and locations rather than being shrugged off or handled in a simple one-note matter. You chose Belinda’s death, so I’ll run with that. Aside from Marjory’s grief in the scene and Kasmeer wishing she could help, nobody seems to care. We should see the family at a monument or a tombstone, have a chance to see others she knew make themselves known and go “we’re going to miss her”. She was a two-bit excuse for shoving pathos onto the Kas/Jory pair, and remains that way until she starts having more to her than what happened.

I agree with Tobias and I think the word “heavy” or “dramatic” (or even “Shakespearean” :P) fits better with this discussion than “adult.”

Plenty of “adult” conflicts are relatively mild and fit just fine in a Disney movie.

But there is certainly a problem, due to MMOs needing to fit within the structure of gameplay, where story can feel like a sideshow that largely doesn’t matter. And although GW2 has tried to skirt around this problem by having a “living world,” the reality is that the changes to the world don’t happen fast enough and they don’t happen in big enough ways (cause GW2 just doesn’t have the resources to do it).

Furthermore, I think a lot of the stuff that people are thinking is childish is more just underdeveloped, again due to lack of resources to pull off something deeper. In the scene where Marjory confronts Belinda's ghost, for example. It is a cool scene, but it is also incredibly short. The exchange gives us little to understand the relationship between the sisters, or get much insight into the Delaqua family and why Belinda's ghost would become part of the sword somehow.

In other words (without any spoilers involved): I feel we are presented with too many characters and too many plot threads, without any way to actually explore those characters/plots in-depth. It’s sort of like reading Game of Thrones, but without the close POV on different characters. As if you were observing all of the events as an outsider. The salt and garnish without a lot of the meat – the thing you really wanted to chew on.

Notice how in some story-based games, they work around this by giving you various side missions that you can do to explore a character or plot further. For example, in Knights of the Old Republic, talking to the various characters of your crew as you complete parts of the game would reveal more about who they are and occasionally lead to a side mission about something from their past.

Only children think that dark and brooding is adult and mature…

Labjax.2465:

Notice how in some story-based games, they work around this by giving you various side missions that you can do to explore a character or plot further. For example, in Knights of the Old Republic, talking to the various characters of your crew as you complete parts of the game would reveal more about who they are and occasionally lead to a side mission about something from their past.

You mean Neverwinter Nights, right? (Note: this is a Bioware staple to their games, and another company which did good with it was Black Isle Studios.)

I tend to equate GW2 storytelling with certain cartoons. Pirates of Darkwater, Masters of the Universe, GI Joe, and so on. Not exactly the most nuanced stories you’ll ever encounter but they can be fun. Would story with more depth, nuanced characters, and so on be a nice change of pace ? Of course, but Vayne has a solid point that games such as this have to appeal to those who are not serious readers for whom such would go right over their heads.

My only major gripes with the story in GW2 are:

How did I supposedly become the leader of this new group of characters (Marjory, etc) ?

Why are characters that I do not really know or care for (some of whom I actively dislike) being referred to as my friends

Why am I not allowed to kill Trahearne when he continuously uses his AOE cone knockback skill to interfere with my efforts to dispatch servants of the dragon. He is clearly working for the other side and summary execution of traitors during a time of war seems reasonable to me.

Why am I being greeted as an old comrade by characters before I meet them for the first time ?

nethykins.7986:

Do you not think it’s to do with a lack of “real” stories within a fantasy setting?

No. It has lot to do with the amount of workhours you’d need to put into creating the consequences Blackmoon speaks about, however.

Think through bigger events of LS season 1. Massacre in Divinity’s Reach. Krait-incured devastation in Kessex Hills. Razing of Lion’s Arch. None of these had any lasting effects beyond the zone they happened in (and often those effects were limited to only parts of the zone).
Think how widespread effect those events should have had. Now, think of manhours that would have been required to put those effects into the game.
It’s not the matter of adult storywriting. It’s the matter of storywriting being constrained by not enough resources.

Yes, it would be nice to have something better. No, we’re not going to get it, beyond maybe some individual, small-scale cases. Well, unless an expansion is in the works, but i wouldn’t count on this either.

Id just like to point out that the razing of Lion’s Arche has had a permanent effect in that the area itself is devastated and there are also refugee camps around.

Plus, the time of the world moves in real time now. Things change and move as we go!

Kitsunami.6241:

Id just like to point out that the razing of Lion’s Arche has had a permanent effect in that the area itself is devastated and there are also refugee camps around.

Yes. A localized consequence, limited to the zone (and entrance from Lornar’s). The Lionsguard outposts in other zones (as well as the people in racial cities) still seem to be completely unaware something has happened. Trade apparently was completely unimpeded – even during the time LA was a killing ground.
Of course, combing through the whole game, in order to see if there are any places where references to LA should have ben added/dropped/modified would have been a monumental work. Which is the point i am making – most of the time we will not see those far reaching impacts, because Anet will not have the people or money (as well as time) to make them.