Guild Wars 2

Reiizm.5871:

…It’s time for some criticism.

Fanboys will definitely chew me out for making this thread, so to mitigate some of your crying, let’s go over a few things: I am not criticising GW2’s integrity as a game. By itself, GW2 stands out as a gripping, engaging and solid action-adventure game. As an MMORPG that has to compete with several others for a playerbase that which the majority of refuses to play more than one MMORPG at a time… The cracks begin to show to aficionados of the MMO genre.

I was so excited for GW2 back when it was being teased.
Began playing on release back in 012 but have since been reduced to an occasional player. I log on once, maybe twice a week when friends invite me to do something.
GW2 had a lot of promise and it’s upsetting to admit that it was definitely over-hyped. Remember the “Manifesto” ? They acted like they were curing cancer when the result was really nothing special. It all sounded too good to be true – because it was. “Cause and effect. A single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events.” … Where exactly in the game does that happen again?

Let’s break it down.

Combat: Charlie-Foxtrot (look it up). Spamspamspamspam. Zergzergzergzerg. Where is the intelligent looking combat shown in the third quarter of the Manifesto video? I’ve never seen combat like THAT in the game and it all looks like in-game footage to me.
PVP: Goes hand-in-hand with combat, but still deserves its own section. sPVP is – again – Charlie-Foxtrot. Also terribly unbalanced. Some class/weapon combos are barely viable for it. Have you tried staff elementalist in pvp? wPVP is just shallow and determined by the server with a higher population. Not to mention 1v1s are competitively impossible which IMO is just unacceptable.

Classes: I love the GW2 classes. They’re all fun and interesting in their own right. Different weapons providing different skills & being able to mix&match weapons on certain classes is genius. That’s where all the good stuff ends. Here comes the rant:
Why the hell does every class need their own heal? Why is there no dedicated healer? Why does Anet see the holy trinity as evil? Yes it inherently came with its own problems but this solution only introduces more. What about people who enjoy playing healer classes? Every class is every role rolled into one, so nobody is really special. There was a certain satisfaction gained from knowing you filled a specific role needed to succeed, but that’s completely devoid in GW2. You’re just a number and you can easily be replaced.

Unfortunately, I can’t really get completely engrossed or committed to GW2 like other MMOs. I guess I just really expected GW2 to be the ultimate final frontier of MMORPGs but was disappointed to find a casual time-waster with no real PVP that caters to the occasional solo-player.

You can’t classify GW2 as an MMORPG, it’s just not. It wants to be and the parts they bothered implementing are amazing. GW2 COULD have been the best MMORPG of all times but they failed in three huge areas.

- No PvE end game. (and no grinding boring no challenge dungeons over and over and over is not end game. Undefeatable raid bosses are end game)

- No gear progression at launch.

- Pay to win.

Triple fail. They should have charged a sub and implemented good PvE content at launch. Yes not having the trinity was a huge mistake also. It’s like all these new fail games are trying to fix stuff that isn’t broken. One things for sure they won’t get any more of my money unless they do a huge overhaul of the game, not likely to happen.

Gods Knight: You don’t understand what pay to win means if you think GW2 is pay to win.

OP: I’d stop playing in a heartbeat if they introduced a trinity. “LFH then g2g!” for hours on end is not my idea of a fun time.

Guhracie.3419:

Gods Knight: You don’t understand what pay to win means if you think GW2 is pay to win.

OP: I’d stop playing in a heartbeat if they introduced a trinity. “LFH then g2g!” for hours on end is not my idea of a fun time.

I know exactly what it is and GW2 is it.

Pay to win in the most common and less ethical example are:

1: the chance of getting advantage over other players

Examples like:
-the ability of upgrading your weapon (see infusion and extractor)*
-combat advantage over other players (revive orbs, repair canister, speed boost)
-and even the chance to get gold from real money in order to obtain the most powerful equip in game (gems to gold)

2 ability to raise a character via real moneys
-experience scrolls
-crafting boosters
-level scrolls

Now if you can compare me famous free to play korean mmorpg with GW2…..

Ita has every single characteristic of a common F2p with P2W…..as you can read in many outdated reviews the ONLY difference is the access to gem with gold…

This access slowly became a wall….infact was considered a non P2W when the gold to gem was less than 30 silver to 100 gems.

Now its near 300% of that….controlled by players or not, its defining this game as a common korean grinding game with P2W…

*this is particuarly interesting because its the SAME mechanic of every P2W title….you can waste your +X upgrade…or take it out with real moneys…..the difference is in other games you are not forced to have +XX to your character to play….here instead there are checks…

P.S. and my ONE and only complaint is being baited here by promises like “we don t make grindy games” and “we are different”.
Leaving friends in game is not easy unfortunately.

Gods Knight.4936:

Guhracie.3419:

Gods Knight: You don’t understand what pay to win means if you think GW2 is pay to win.

OP: I’d stop playing in a heartbeat if they introduced a trinity. “LFH then g2g!” for hours on end is not my idea of a fun time.

I know exactly what it is and GW2 is it.

Yeah indeed i dont like that im saying that that it is P2W, i bought some gold from gems worth 20$ only for my ascended and i realized that thats the definition of P2W

all “pay to win” arguments about guild wars 2 are invalid.

because you can buy gem store currency using in game gold.

Gods Knight.4936:

You can’t classify GW2 as an MMORPG, it’s just not.

And why is that exactly?

Last I looked, MMORPG stood for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

Gods Knight.4936:

- No PvE end game. (and no grinding boring no challenge dungeons over and over and over is not end game. Undefeatable raid bosses are end game)

- No gear progression at launch.

- Pay to win.

Triple fail. They should have charged a sub and implemented good PvE content at launch. Yes not having the trinity was a huge mistake also. It’s like all these new fail games are trying to fix stuff that isn’t broken. One things for sure they won’t get any more of my money unless they do a huge overhaul of the game, not likely to happen.

Except the Trinity is somewhat broken, or the aggro mechanic part of it at least. The tank charges in, and can keep threat indefinitely, despite higher damage coming from other sources, and someone keeping that meat shield that the boss keeps hitting alive. Now, if tanking didn’t rely on aggro control, rather body-blocking attacks and CC / damage mitigation, I’d agree.

In my opinion, the Trinity doesn’t represent true teamwork. Tell me, what sounds more like teamwork to you:

• Boss fight, healer goes down half way through, fight automatically fails.
• Boss fight, Player A gets Downed. Player B knocks the boss back and Immobilises, while players C and D get Player A back on their feet.

And while a lot of things aren’t ‘broken’, they could definitely be improved.

- Since when does a game have to have raids to become an MMO? If all you’re going to do is instanced content that divides the player base up, wouldn’t that make it more like a lobby game?

- Again, why is this a must?

- This phrase has lost all meaning. How exactly is GW2 pay to win? Do you ‘win’ when you get to level 80? Or when you get Ascended? I suppose it does depend on the individuals’ definition of ‘win’.

OP, the only thing I can say is that I feel there are a few main things that are fault more than the actual combat system itself:

• Event Scaling – Most big bosses only scale in damage, as opposed to mechanics, and that’s up to a maximum amount of players. Thus, you don’t need to pay attention to mechanics, thus zerging.

• Encounter Design and Mechanics – Most mechanics a) don’t utilise, or detriment, other aspects of combat, such as control or buffing, or b) these mechanics can simply be brute-forced by damage.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all “pay to win” arguments about guild wars 2 are invalid.

because you can buy gem store currency using in game gold.

That was the case when gold to gems was 30 silver for 100 gold…
And even then it was considered borderline p2w by VG press…..

And nowaday its even more P2W since there is also GEMS TO GOLD…..

LordByron.8369:

This access slowly became a wall….infact was considered a non P2W when the gold to gem was less than 30 silver to 100 gems.

Now its near 300% of that….controlled by players or not, its defining this game as a common korean grinding game with P2W…

Right when gold to gem was less than 30 silver, it was almost impossible to make 1 gold in one day. Today it’s really easy.

LordByron.8369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all “pay to win” arguments about guild wars 2 are invalid.

because you can buy gem store currency using in game gold.

That was the case when gold to gems was 30 silver for 100 gold…
And even then it was considered borderline p2w by VG press…..

And nowaday its even more P2W since there is also GEMS TO GOLD…..

Either you’re new and you just discovered this or you’ve been here forever and just discovered this. It’s been like this since day one.

Why do people even argue about P2Win….

There’s nothing to Win. No big competition, nothing in the store that gives you more than anyone else that doesn’t use it.

If you feel this game is pay to win then might i suggest you learn to actually make gold ? It’s not rocket science or that hard to do. Boring yes, but any joe wearing even off traited Greens off the TP can do it.

Gw 2 is pay to win… I’m disagree with this. i never found someone with equal skill to play in gw 2, to be able to solo more than 3 people at the same times….
If u want to try pay to win games. try to play Perfect World. played it awhile in it’s early stage… with $3000-$6000 u can solo 1 guild if u want…. (That is if everyone in the guild don;t have the pay to win rank armor ^^)lol

Although lacking in detail, some very nicely-worded criticism. Good job.

Sadly it will be ignored and swept under the rug like the myriad of other well-thought-out threads on the subject. Don’t get your hopes up.

“Come help us improve our game! We’ll listen to what you say and… just kidding, lol.”

Guhracie.3419:

You don’t understand what pay to win means if you think GW2 is pay to win.

Cosmetics are supposed to be the endgame goal in GW2, correct? Some of the best cosmetics are only available in the gem shop, correct? So in that case… You pay to “Win”.

But yeah, obviously GW2 avoids the pay-to-win nonsense. Not that this alone can make it great.

The P2W argument doesn’t work for GW2, and I’ll explain why. People have brought up two aspects that they seem to think is P2W. Firstly, let me debunk the one referring to the gem store. There is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING in the gem store that gives a significant advantage in PvE or WvW, and the skins are just that. The boosters last all of one hour, and can’t be used in PvP. Some can’t even be used in WvW. So that one goes right out the window. Second, the conversion to gold. Better people than me have done the overall math, and if I’m remembering correctly Ascended gear, even with infusions, only gives a 5%-7% overall stat boost. Even converting to gold to craft up to 500, there’s still time gating to deal with. So no, P2W does not apply to GW2.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Gods Knight.4936:

You can’t classify GW2 as an MMORPG, it’s just not.

And why is that exactly?

Last I looked, MMORPG stood for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

Well, it’s just MMOG, as all MMOs since WoW came out. And why, do you ask? That’s simple, there’s no “Role-playing” here, therefore it’s only MMOG. Still a good genre though, but not RPG anymore.

Come on guys…
I don’t understand.
Would you buy gold to a Chinese farmer? No, right? It’s bad, unbalances the economy, gives the buyers an easy way to obtain everything in game without effort.
But Anet is selling its own gold, and everyone thinks it is normal.

This game you win by obtaining skins, ascended and legendary. There is nothing else to win (in PVE).
If you can pay real money for those, you are paying to win. Period.

I understand that Anet needs the money and it’s their game. But anyone saying you do not pay to win has not really understood what Winning means in this game.

BeoErgon.9107:

Come on guys…
I don’t understand.
Would you buy gold to a Chinese farmer? No, right? It’s bad, unbalances the economy, gives the buyers an easy way to obtain everything in game without effort.
But Anet is selling its own gold, and everyone thinks it is normal.

This game you win by obtaining skins, ascended and legendary. There is nothing else to win (in PVE).
If you can pay real money for those, you are paying to win. Period.

I understand that Anet needs the money and it’s their game. But anyone saying you do not pay to win has not really understood what Winning means in this game.

There’s no competition in PvE, so you can’t win in PvE. I’ve been playing PvE for a year, and I’ve never won anything…and never tried to win anything. PvE is cooperative, not competitive.

Vayne.8563:

BeoErgon.9107:

Come on guys…
I don’t understand.
Would you buy gold to a Chinese farmer? No, right? It’s bad, unbalances the economy, gives the buyers an easy way to obtain everything in game without effort.
But Anet is selling its own gold, and everyone thinks it is normal.

This game you win by obtaining skins, ascended and legendary. There is nothing else to win (in PVE).
If you can pay real money for those, you are paying to win. Period.

I understand that Anet needs the money and it’s their game. But anyone saying you do not pay to win has not really understood what Winning means in this game.

There’s no competition in PvE, so you can’t win in PvE. I’ve been playing PvE for a year, and I’ve never won anything…and never tried to win anything. PvE is cooperative, not competitive.

You can’t win against other players. Sure. But you can win the best rewards, the best items… you can win them; or buy them…

PVE is always about your own objectives. When you get them you win. Don’t have any objectives? Well, then it is normal you win nothing.

BeoErgon.9107:

You can’t win against other players. Sure. But you can win the best rewards, the best items… you can win them; or buy them…

PVE is always about your own objectives. When you get them you win. Don’t have any objectives? Well, then it is normal you win nothing.

Except that’s dependent on the player; both the goals and their mentality.

What if my objective is to get all of the dungeon skins? Or certain achievements? Or Ascended gear? I have to play the game in order to do that.

And then you got to ask yourself ‘have you really won if you bought them?’

Draco.2806:

Cosmetics are supposed to be the endgame goal in GW2, correct?

Not really.

Draco.2806:

Some of the best cosmetics are only available in the gem shop, correct?

Not really.

TheDaiBish.9735:

BeoErgon.9107:

You can’t win against other players. Sure. But you can win the best rewards, the best items… you can win them; or buy them…

PVE is always about your own objectives. When you get them you win. Don’t have any objectives? Well, then it is normal you win nothing.

Except that’s dependent on the player; both the goals and their mentality.

What if my objective is to get all of the dungeon skins? Or certain achievements? Or Ascended gear? I have to play the game in order to do that.

And then you got to ask yourself ‘have you really won if you bought them?’

You don’t have to play the game for the dungeon skins. Anet allows path selling. You get the skins with gold.
Achievements are not yet for sale, thanks god.
Ascended you can buy it, at least 80% of the materials for it, breaking through the time gates of Anet at the same time. Ores are not for sale… yet.

Having a title, an armor, a skin in PVE should mean you played the game and won it. As long as you can shortcut the acquisition with gold and gold can be bought with real money you are paying to win.

AS for personal image of winning, there are two things to consider. Take your game objective is to have Arah armor. You fight, learn and endure to get it and then what? Well, you might feel you won something ,but that effort is ridiculed by the fact that anyone with a credit card can get that armor.
You won… but feel like a looser.

Darkobra.6439:

LordByron.8369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all “pay to win” arguments about guild wars 2 are invalid.

because you can buy gem store currency using in game gold.

That was the case when gold to gems was 30 silver for 100 gold…
And even then it was considered borderline p2w by VG press…..

And nowaday its even more P2W since there is also GEMS TO GOLD…..

Either you’re new and you just discovered this or you’ve been here forever and just discovered this. It’s been like this since day one.

It was so…but at the beginning it wasn t efficient….and that was the only reason why reviews on this game didn t say this is a P2W…

You can clearly find many reviews about gems and this game economy….to see the concern about the issue …..and the only good thing was the bearable Exchange rate….

P.S. and at the beginning you could do more than now……cof 1 and ORR provided huge incomes since release and were nerfed.

You could do 10-50 gold a day like now…

Pay 2 Win to me is only something that you can obtain with Real Money, and not via any other methods. Since all the stuff you can get for by buying Gems you can also get via Gold2Gems without paying a penny it’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s more like Pay For Convenience.

That, and the fact it is a skill based game, GW2 to me is not Pay 2 Win. I think people are misunderstanding the term P2W. But hey, that’s just my opinion.

Ashen.2907:

Not really.

Ya rly.

LordByron.8369:

…and the only good thing was the bearable Exchange rate… You could do 10-50 gold a day like now…

Play how you want! Horizontal progression! No grind! Wow!

Draco.2806:

Ashen.2907:

Not really.

Ya rly.

1) Cosmetics are not necessarily the endgame in GW2.

2) The gemshop cosmetics are among the least attractive options in the game.

Frankly speaking, most people don’t enjoy playing healer or tank. Most people prefers playing DPS. Evidence? Just look at the LFG of every MMO since forever. So taking out the trinity doesn’t change things much from the perspective of most players, except being DPS now is more involving.

The trinity is a broken concept. Having the entire encounter reliant on 2 people doing their jobs properly is just stupid. Have you ever seen a skirmish irl where if the medic dies the entire battalion commits suicide? No.

Not mentioning it massively restricts what you can do with fights. The Thermanova boss would have never happened because it doesn’t need healers or tanks.

As for Zerg Zerg Zerg, I question if OP has ever done high level fractals or dungeons like Arah. I would not be surprised if half the playbase has never seen more than AC3 a d Cof1.

P2W: yes, it’s pay to win. Except half the stuff arent obtainable via paying (fractal skins etc). You can pay for a legendary but hundreds of dollars for pixels? Go ahead.

Also, the kind of P2W people are talking about us starting to become a common sight, even in P2P. You can buy bonds for RS, PLEX for EVE, game time for WildStar, etc. I don’t like it but I guess business is business, what can I do?

I’m very surprised the OP hasn’t mentioned anything about character progression, which is the elephant in the room.

Ashen.2907:

1) Cosmetics are not necessarily the endgame in GW2.

That’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say something this out of touch with everything GW2 was supposed to be.

OF COURSE cosmetic are the endgame goal.

GW2 didn’t want the gear stat treadmill, so it used the GW1 model of rewarding players with cosmetic items. And you’re just… What?

Ashen.2907:

2) The gemshop cosmetics are among the least attractive options in the game.

Uh… No.

Hell no.

The bigger problem is that cash shop skins are pretty much the only thing being added to the game. GW2 started out with what would be an extremely modest selection of clothing even for a single-player RPG, and it never got better. For a game that’s supposed to be based on “horizontal progression” that translates into a rightfully very short lifespan.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Frankly speaking, most people don’t enjoy playing healer or tank. Most people prefers playing DPS. Evidence? Just look at the LFG of every MMO since forever. So taking out the trinity doesn’t change things much from the perspective of most players, except being DPS now is more involving.

Actually, “Trinity” is a mechanism of encouraging teamwork between players.

Take it out, and you get The Zerg.

GW2 had an opportunity to replace very rigid class roles (which are the one downside of Trinity and such) with dynamic or universal ones – but it didn’t. As a result, teamwork is non-existent in majority of everything, and effectiveness of most classes comes down to: do you want to play in a fun and enjoyable way, or an actually effective one?

If you have to make that choice, you’re playing a poorly-balanced game.

LordByron.8369:

Pay to win in the most common and less ethical example are:

1: the chance of getting advantage over other players

Examples like:
-the ability of upgrading your weapon (see infusion and extractor)*
-combat advantage over other players (revive orbs, repair canister, speed boost)
-and even the chance to get gold from real money in order to obtain the most powerful equip in game (gems to gold)

-?
-Does not work in the competitive settings (e.g. WvW and SPvP) and they’re not really combat advantages at all. They’re helpful to the entire team. P2W in the sense that you’re using it here isn’t at all how it’s intended to be used on the interwebz. If you’re helping EVERYONE by “paying to win” nobody is going to be upset that the game is pay 2 win.
-Exotics are easily obtainable after days, the gold required for certain ascended pieces is the EASY part. The gold does not matter much for the end game gear grind.

2 ability to raise a character via real moneys
-experience scrolls
-crafting boosters
-level scrolls

That’s not pay to win, and these are all found in game. Literally, I have dozens of boosters of all kinds just from playing the game, and “experience scrolls” (you mean skill point scrolls?) are now easily bought, just as level scrolls are (scrolls and tomes of knowledge, ftr).

Now if you can compare me famous free to play korean mmorpg with GW2…..

Ita has every single characteristic of a common F2p with P2W…..as you can read in many outdated reviews the ONLY difference is the access to gem with gold…

This is factually false. Korean virtually REQUIRE cash shop to level up. Take, for example, Rappelz. If you do not buy stamina savers, you’re literally going to take thousands of hours to even get close to max level. In GW2 it’s a VERY SLIGHT boost.

Brokenzz.9071:

Pay 2 Win to me is only something that you can obtain with Real Money, and not via any other methods. Since all the stuff you can get for by buying Gems you can also get via Gold2Gems without paying a penny it’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s more like Pay For Convenience.

That, and the fact it is a skill based game, GW2 to me is not Pay 2 Win. I think people are misunderstanding the term P2W. But hey, that’s just my opinion.

This is false. There are plenty of things you buy with money that you can’t get in game. Also you can buy levels and components for the best gear in game that you would otherwise have to grind. That is P2W. The End.

Arius.7031:

LordByron.8369:

Pay to win in the most common and less ethical example are:

1: the chance of getting advantage over other players

Examples like:
-the ability of upgrading your weapon (see infusion and extractor)*
-combat advantage over other players (revive orbs, repair canister, speed boost)
-and even the chance to get gold from real money in order to obtain the most powerful equip in game (gems to gold)

-?
-Does not work in the competitive settings (e.g. WvW and SPvP) and they’re not really combat advantages at all. They’re helpful to the entire team. P2W in the sense that you’re using it here isn’t at all how it’s intended to be used on the interwebz. If you’re helping EVERYONE by “paying to win” nobody is going to be upset that the game is pay 2 win.
-Exotics are easily obtainable after days, the gold required for certain ascended pieces is the EASY part. The gold does not matter much for the end game gear grind.

2 ability to raise a character via real moneys
-experience scrolls
-crafting boosters
-level scrolls

That’s not pay to win, and these are all found in game. Literally, I have dozens of boosters of all kinds just from playing the game, and “experience scrolls” (you mean skill point scrolls?) are now easily bought, just as level scrolls are (scrolls and tomes of knowledge, ftr).

Now if you can compare me famous free to play korean mmorpg with GW2…..

Ita has every single characteristic of a common F2p with P2W…..as you can read in many outdated reviews the ONLY difference is the access to gem with gold…

This is factually false. Korean virtually REQUIRE cash shop to level up. Take, for example, Rappelz. If you do not buy stamina savers, you’re literally going to take thousands of hours to even get close to max level. In GW2 it’s a VERY SLIGHT boost.

I like the way you think.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all “pay to win” arguments about guild wars 2 are invalid.

because you can buy gem store currency using in game gold.

The fact that you have a route to in-game gold via real cash is the issue that makes it p2w. It’s no mistake that Legendary items are not soul bound

Draco.2806:

everything GW2 was supposed to be.

was supposed to be =/= is.

Draco.2806:

OF COURSE cosmetic are the endgame goal.

And yet the game started out with very few such options not available from fairly early on in a character’s leveling process. Then there is the gear grind added… Hmm, more of that than cosmetic options added. Sounds like cosmetics are not really the endgame focus for ANet.

Draco.2806:

GW2 didn’t want the gear stat treadmill, so it used the GW1 model of rewarding players with cosmetic items..

No, Anet claimed that they didn’t want gear grind and intended to use the GW1 model of rewarding players with cosmetic items. That lasted how long ? Two months ? Compare the gear stat progression added to the amount of non-gemshop cosmetic progression added since launch.

Ashen.2907:

2) The gemshop cosmetics are among the least attractive options in the game.

Draco.2806:

Uh… No.

And yet others disagree. Perhaps cosmetics are purely subjective in value ? Personally there is not a single gemshop armor option that I would use even if Anet paid me rather than the other way around.

Draco.2806:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Frankly speaking, most people don’t enjoy playing healer or tank. Most people prefers playing DPS. Evidence? Just look at the LFG of every MMO since forever. So taking out the trinity doesn’t change things much from the perspective of most players, except being DPS now is more involving.

Actually, “Trinity” is a mechanism of encouraging teamwork between players.

Take it out, and you get The Zerg.

GW2 had an opportunity to replace very rigid class roles (which are the one downside of Trinity and such) with dynamic or universal ones – but it didn’t. As a result, teamwork is non-existent in majority of everything, and effectiveness of most classes comes down to: do you want to play in a fun and enjoyable way, or an actually effective one?

If you have to make that choice, you’re playing a poorly-balanced game.

In most game’s the choice comes down to if you want to play an effective class or a fun one. Imbalance isn’t something new. And there will always be optimal builds and fun builds.

As for teamwork. Have you done a 30+ fotm? Most of the game doesn’t require much teamwork but when the game does, oh boy it does. But I agree we need more content at that kind of difficulty.

Gods Knight.4936:

Brokenzz.9071:

Pay 2 Win to me is only something that you can obtain with Real Money, and not via any other methods. Since all the stuff you can get for by buying Gems you can also get via Gold2Gems without paying a penny it’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s more like Pay For Convenience.

That, and the fact it is a skill based game, GW2 to me is not Pay 2 Win. I think people are misunderstanding the term P2W. But hey, that’s just my opinion.

This is false. There are plenty of things you buy with money that you can’t get in game. Also you can buy levels and components for the best gear in game that you would otherwise have to grind. That is P2W. The End.

1 – you cannot buy levels.
2 – things like extractor you can buy by converting Gold 2 Gems and let’s face it getting gold isn’t hard.

You spend real money to buy JUST gems. BUT you can also get gems with GOLD which can be easily acquired.

The simple fact that there is NOTHING you can get with Real Money in the game that you cannot get otherwise makes this NOT P2W (since AGAIN you can get gems without paying money).

Your logic about P2W is flawed – please refer to my earlier post as you fall into the category of people who simply do not comprehend what Pay 2 Win is.

The end.

I actually thought that the whole rationale behind GW2 is that it is a race to see who is best dressed!

You never hear people brag about their combat moves, but you do hear them brag about how cool their weapon looks or how sexy their avatar is in that shiny new dress/battle armour.

Though most conversations on the forums these days seem to devolve into a “is a p2w or isn’t it” style discussions. Kinda gives you an indication of where the game is headed though.

Those who don’t feel they are getting value for money or who are getting bored walk (anyone remember RIFT? L), those who feel the value is worth it stay.

BeoErgon.9107:

Vayne.8563:

BeoErgon.9107:

Come on guys…
I don’t understand.
Would you buy gold to a Chinese farmer? No, right? It’s bad, unbalances the economy, gives the buyers an easy way to obtain everything in game without effort.
But Anet is selling its own gold, and everyone thinks it is normal.

This game you win by obtaining skins, ascended and legendary. There is nothing else to win (in PVE).
If you can pay real money for those, you are paying to win. Period.

I understand that Anet needs the money and it’s their game. But anyone saying you do not pay to win has not really understood what Winning means in this game.

There’s no competition in PvE, so you can’t win in PvE. I’ve been playing PvE for a year, and I’ve never won anything…and never tried to win anything. PvE is cooperative, not competitive.

You can’t win against other players. Sure. But you can win the best rewards, the best items… you can win them; or buy them…

PVE is always about your own objectives. When you get them you win. Don’t have any objectives? Well, then it is normal you win nothing.

I understand the point you’re trying to make but personally I think you have got one problem there, like vayne said PvE in Gw2 is entirely co-operative so even if there was such a thing as rewards you can only get from content that you can only win using items you can only buy with real money (which of course there isnt) all one would didnt buy said items would need to do is join others. 2 people supporting each other are way more powerful stat wise then any 1 person with the best gear. Never mind in gw2 you can technically group up with 500 people (maximum people in one map).

Thats why it can never be p2w even if they were to sell BiS in the gem shop and you could only get BiS through direct purchase. This is not a game in which another player can use their stat superiority to keep you from winning / earning a reward. If they have a stat superiority all they can do is help you, even unwillingly because all you’d need to do is join them in the fight to earn the same reward they’ll be earning.

As for your buying argument, I dont feel thats P2W, its convenience. Buying stuff to craft say your ascended gear is just saving you time, anyone else who doesnt spend a single cent or buy a single piece of mat (except for the vendor required mats) will still get the same reward. Again if person A has ascended gear and Person B does not there will never be a situation where person A can win a reward that person B cannot. Neither can person A win the reward before person B does. In PvE grouping up with someone who has better stats then you is actually a win for you not a loss because litterally all they can do is help you get your reward faster!

Draco.2806:

Actually, “Trinity” is a mechanism of encouraging teamwork between players.

Take it out, and you get The Zerg.

GW2 had an opportunity to replace very rigid class roles (which are the one downside of Trinity and such) with dynamic or universal ones – but it didn’t. As a result, teamwork is non-existent in majority of everything, and effectiveness of most classes comes down to: do you want to play in a fun and enjoyable way, or an actually effective one?

If you have to make that choice, you’re playing a poorly-balanced game.

I personally view the Trinity as simply another gating mechanism.

While in the encounter, each individual role is exactly like how GW2 encounters; you focus only on what you’re doing, with little awareness of your team-mates (unless a mechanic requires you to know where your team-mate is, and then that tends to be a mechanic that doesn’t require the Trinity to implement).

I’d also say that it’s an issue more with encounter design, as well as a few select mechanics such as Defiant, that cause the lack of team-work. Not the combat system itself. Look at the Lover’s fight. That could have been a prime example where mechanics required teamwork (awareness of your allies location, what they’re doing ect) without specific roles. However, it suffers from the ability to brute force it.

On your final point, I’d agree with you were forced into playing it one way in order to complete content.

Arius.7031:

-?
-Does not work in the competitive settings (e.g. WvW and SPvP) and they’re not really combat advantages at all.

PvE is 90% of the game….
also yes it will impact WWW….

5% base efficience +5 stats * 14 slots is a significant advantage in ANY pvp setting like WWW.

Soon will be 6 stats and then 7 stats and you will buy your extractors…

Also since fotm will soon have a leaderboard is competitive by definition.

Reiizm.5871:

Fanboys will definitely chew me out for making this thread

Ok I’ll read the rest of your post now, but I honestly need to point out that starting a post by calling everyone that doesn’t agree with you a fan boy, is just poor form. It indicates a certain detachment with reality on your part, a lack of desire to hear any opinion that is not your own pre-judging them to be the rambling of fan-boys and thus not deserving of your most wonderful acknowledgement.

EDIT:
Ok read the rest of it, not as hateful as I thought (some emphasis on the as part). Anyway I will agree that ANet hasn’t figured out fully how to get the non-trinity to work perfectly. It’s working but I also feel that there is something not there. That something is of course not the trinity. I think the problem lies in the fact that ANet is taking more classic trinity-style-bosses (the sort of boss encounters you’d see in WoW for example) and presenting them to players and although the non-trinity mechanics aren’t completely opposed to a more traditional boss encountered there is something not there. Of course this does seem like something ANet is slowly address, compare some of the launch dungeon bosses to some of the more interesting fractal or living story bosses and you’ll notice a slight progress. The introduction of new boss mechanics that require a player to do more than stand still and pew-pew occasionally getting out of the fire while someone else plays a healing-whack-a-mole is a good step.
So in a simply summary, yes GW2 combat can still be improved but trinity is not the way to do it. Boss Mechanics is where I think the big breakthrough will come from.

As for P2W. Here is my definition: providing a paying player a clear advantage over non-paying players. Not sure of GW2 constitutes P2W according to that definition. I think I should further add that convenience is not P2W, being able to gain a small increase to experience gain or karma is more convenience than win. It doesn’t create any gate, it doesn’t create some unattainable plateau that those non-payers can only gaze at. A dedicated player can easily farm the gold, or farm the gems and without paying anything gain all the same advantages of a paying player. And the amount of effort required to catch up to a paying player isn’t even that great.
As for the argument that getting skins is P2W, not sure of that one. Skin’s seems to fall into the meta-game, the stores gives no clear advantages in terms of the mechanics of the game in relation to other players i.e. you’re not getting harder or not getting hit as hard.

Pay to win is Diablo 3.
GW2 is so far from pay to win. It takes roughly 48-72 hours to get your toon in full exos and at level 80, and thats play casually. People cry too much. Everything else is just skins, and ascended are long term goals so we actually have something to do.

Play some other MMOs, especially the older ones, and youll see pay to win. Nearly every online game lets you use real money to achieve goals, and theres nothing wrong with that, and if youre crying about it get a better job or play something single player honestly. Not everyone has the chance to play 30+ hours a week to get the best of gear and enjoy everything so they toss out their hard earned money to keep up or get ahead. Its not paying to win because your same hard earned gold can get you the very same things.

The Trinity system is absolute obsolete garbage. Its like Turned Based RPGS, everyone loved it the past 20 years and then it did its bow out and its gone, because its obsolete. If you think not go play FF14 and have fun, seriously. Waiting 2 hours for a team that needs a DPS while the healer sits back then entire time not responding because hes watching youtube the entire dungeon is fun for like, a day, and then you say ok enough is enough. If you find that fun please mail me all your GW2 stuff and good luck.

Oh and for the record, when this game launched the Warriors had extremely weak healing and since 60% of the player base is Warriors, they cried and cried and cried and cried and cried and now that have the healing signet, the best possible heal there is. I have played high level fractals with Eles focused on healing and it was fun and I had no problem with it, but no way should GW2 need a dedicated healer. Even Dungeons and Dragons barely has dedicated healers anymore, Clerics have become more like Paladins over the years

Gods Knight.4936:

Brokenzz.9071:

Pay 2 Win to me is only something that you can obtain with Real Money, and not via any other methods. Since all the stuff you can get for by buying Gems you can also get via Gold2Gems without paying a penny it’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s more like Pay For Convenience.

That, and the fact it is a skill based game, GW2 to me is not Pay 2 Win. I think people are misunderstanding the term P2W. But hey, that’s just my opinion.

This is false. There are plenty of things you buy with money that you can’t get in game. Also you can buy levels and components for the best gear in game that you would otherwise have to grind. That is P2W. The End.

I feel your interpretation of pay 2 win is wrong. Its called pay to win for a reason, that reason being you pay money to gain an advantage that you would otherwise not have without paying.

paying to avoid “grind” or get there faster is paying for convenience not essentially for winning.

Because you can turn gold into gems you can essentially get everything that is sold by the gem shop without doing nothing other then playing the game. Sure it will take a long time but that’s why its pay for convenience and not to win because you’re paying to avoid having to earn the tons of gold you’d need if you choose not to invest any money.

In any case nothing you can buy will give you an advantage that you cannot gain without paying and that’s a crucial element for something to be pay to win. Temporary “advantages” do not count because the nature of every MMO provides some sort of advantages always Even those subscription base MMO with no cash shop. Better drops, having more time to play etc…

If you use money to buy mats to level faster using crafting you’re not getting an advantage by paying you’re just getting to a point were everything player who never pays a single cent more then the game’s purchase price will get there as well just a little bit faster. Even in that span of time you’ll not really get an advantage. In PvE you’ll be playing entirely cooperative. All you can really do is help the person who’s yet to reach max level, there is no way to get any form of win over them. in sPvP you’ll both at the same level regardless of your invested money and WvW isnt about any single combat encounter. One on One engagements alone are not a win and your advantage is negligible when compared to the whole server.

The definition of pay to win keeps getting stretched I mean look around on the forums and you’ll see posts arguing that in Gw2 skins for sale is P2W because in Gw2 cosmetics are a win. Definitions become meaningless when miss-used so much. Sure paying gives you an advantage, it will get you there faster no doubt. Doesnt have to be paying though If person A can play 3x then person B that will also get them there faster. is any of that game breaking or something to be angry about? As long as a player who doesnt pay can get to the same level in a reasonable amount of time its merely paying for convenience imho.

@OP:

First, LOL at the ‘012’ lol..its said 2012, and I don’t think you can say it as you would 2009 as in ‘09’. Hugs.

Kidding aside…

I agree with the spirit of your post in that GW2 is not what was hyped up, whether it was via the almighty manifesto or not…just the dev blogs, the interviews, the videos, the fansites, everything hyped GW2 to be what it is not today.

-My actions, let alone a single action, have no impact on the world.
-I do kill the boss and 10 minutes later he DOES respawn contrary to the manifesto(which was cleared up as she was referring to the personal story…well DUH, thats instanced and I will never see that part of the personal story again with that character. ? Really, you were referring to that)
-Combat IS grindy. 9/10 fights you can spam 1 and win. Aside from WvW, aside from certain explorable paths, you can get away with minimal effort and win. Hey I swung my sword, again and again and again Colin J. Thats not fun right? Thats something you said won’t be present in the game, but it is.
-The above bullet has nothing to do with materials grind and grind in general, but this is the most grindy game Ive ever played.

With that said, please don’t tell me you bought the game expected to play a healer class and be the sole savior of the group. Do the research. One of the reasons Ilike GW2 is because it is trying its hand with no classes and defined roles. I think its a positive. Now, if they can only make content that encourages more support, healy tanky builds, that would be great.

Overall, the game is good. Its hooked me for more hours than any other MMO combined aside from WoW. I can see that Im nearing the end of the road with GW2 as their design direction has major issues, and other awsome looking MMOs are just on the horizon. It might be time to cut my losses and try my luck in those games. But until the first one releases, I’ll probably stay here. Its just a matter of whether or not arenanet listens to us in the CDIs and impliments real change before any of these games releases.(from my part anyways)

BeoErgon.9107:

Having a title, an armor, a skin in PVE should mean you played the game and won it. As long as you can shortcut the acquisition with gold and gold can be bought with real money you are paying to win.

AS for personal image of winning, there are two things to consider. Take your game objective is to have Arah armor. You fight, learn and endure to get it and then what? Well, you might feel you won something ,but that effort is ridiculed by the fact that anyone with a credit card can get that armor.
You won… but feel like a looser.

If acquiring the title, armor, weapon, or whatever was only accessible through the gem shop for purchase only with real money then it would be considered P2W, but not only is it not the only way to obtain the object it isn’t the most popular or the way it is obtained in most cases, it’s a option to acquire for the folks that are in a hurry, have the disposable income, or just simply don’t want to do the content necessary to obtain the reward.

The other thing is there is nothing wrong with this, in a game that is F2P or B2P the company (Anet) needs cash to continue operating beyond box sales, the cash shop is a necessary evil to generate revenue, there are no in-game mechanisms forcing you to use the TP to acquire anything other than a desire to have the item. So with this in mind (the need to generate revenue) you have TP items that are only available through the TP and can not be obtained any other way. The people with a desire for those items have little choice but to use RL monies or convert in-game gold to gems to purchase the item they desire.

Still nothing wrong with this because nothing on the TP will give you a advantage over anyone else except the convenience of having it quicker, or the ability to salvage something to reuse the upgrades, or the cosmetics to have a certain look, these are preferences and desires not game changing mechanics forcing anyone to spend RL money which would be P2W if the object was a advantage over other players not having the item.

I’ve never felt like a loser in this game because I don’t have what another player has or do I care how another player acquired anything in game, nor have I ever felt like a loser because I completed content and got a reward that others could skip the content and buy the reward off the TP, it comes down to me in the satisfaction in knowing I was able to do the content and get the reward if you chose not to do the content and buy the reward it has no effect on me in any respect, it’s how you choose to play the game and how you view your accomplishments in the game. If your constantly comparing your achievements/rewards based on what others have done to get the same reward you will always come-away disappointed in any game same as real life.

Na guild wars 2 failed cause in Anets pursuit for a better game they forgot the basics and how to connect the player’s avatar to the world, PS means nothing, race means nothing, order means nothing, nothing matters in this game, all it is, is a game of i got better looking skins than you therefore i must be better, its a “keeping-up with the joneses” mentality that keeps people going, because other than that there is nothing more to play for here.

Players can whip out their credit cards, buy gold, craft their toons to 80, buy all the best armor and weapons from the TP, all without ever leaving LA.

IMO this is P2W. Is it gamebreaking? Nope.

Gods Knight.4936:

You can’t classify GW2 as an MMORPG, it’s just not. It wants to be and the parts they bothered implementing are amazing. GW2 COULD have been the best MMORPG of all times but they failed in three huge areas.

- No PvE end game. (and no grinding boring no challenge dungeons over and over and over is not end game. Undefeatable raid bosses are end game)

- No gear progression at launch.

- Pay to win.

Triple fail. They should have charged a sub and implemented good PvE content at launch. Yes not having the trinity was a huge mistake also. It’s like all these new fail games are trying to fix stuff that isn’t broken. One things for sure they won’t get any more of my money unless they do a huge overhaul of the game, not likely to happen.

This is worth looking over… let’s see…

No PvE endgame, that’s not accurate. Dungeons, Fractals, Meta events, Living Story, etc.

No gear progression at launch, not entirely accurate, the progression was simply very flat, as it still is with ascended. There was a little miscalculation it seems on how quickly people would get all exotics.

Pay to win. Mega-fallacy there. Nothing remotely resembles pay to win.

Triple fail… ok, you get that one.

root.9415:

Players can whip out their credit cards, buy gold, craft their toons to 80, buy all the best armor and weapons from the TP, all without ever leaving LA.

IMO this is P2W. Is it gamebreaking? Nope.

It’s not pay to win, no matter how you slice it.

It’s pay to be equal a little more quickly. You can do it slowly, you can invest a lot of time or you can invest more gold, all to reach the same power plateau.

Gods Knight.4936:

Guhracie.3419:

Gods Knight: You don’t understand what pay to win means if you think GW2 is pay to win.

OP: I’d stop playing in a heartbeat if they introduced a trinity. “LFH then g2g!” for hours on end is not my idea of a fun time.

I know exactly what it is and GW2 is it.

No… no, you don’t
No… No, it’s not

TheDaiBish.9735:

Gods Knight.4936:

You can’t classify GW2 as an MMORPG, it’s just not.

And why is that exactly?

Last I looked, MMORPG stood for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

Gods Knight.4936:

- No PvE end game. (and no grinding boring no challenge dungeons over and over and over is not end game. Undefeatable raid bosses are end game)

- No gear progression at launch.

- Pay to win.

Triple fail. They should have charged a sub and implemented good PvE content at launch. Yes not having the trinity was a huge mistake also. It’s like all these new fail games are trying to fix stuff that isn’t broken. One things for sure they won’t get any more of my money unless they do a huge overhaul of the game, not likely to happen.

Except the Trinity is somewhat broken, or the aggro mechanic part of it at least. The tank charges in, and can keep threat indefinitely, despite higher damage coming from other sources, and someone keeping that meat shield that the boss keeps hitting alive. Now, if tanking didn’t rely on aggro control, rather body-blocking attacks and CC / damage mitigation, I’d agree.

In my opinion, the Trinity doesn’t represent true teamwork. Tell me, what sounds more like teamwork to you:

• Boss fight, healer goes down half way through, fight automatically fails.
• Boss fight, Player A gets Downed. Player B knocks the boss back and Immobilises, while players C and D get Player A back on their feet.

And while a lot of things aren’t ‘broken’, they could definitely be improved.

- Since when does a game have to have raids to become an MMO? If all you’re going to do is instanced content that divides the player base up, wouldn’t that make it more like a lobby game?

- Again, why is this a must?

- This phrase has lost all meaning. How exactly is GW2 pay to win? Do you ‘win’ when you get to level 80? Or when you get Ascended? I suppose it does depend on the individuals’ definition of ‘win’.

---

OP, the only thing I can say is that I feel there are a few main things that are fault more than the actual combat system itself:

• Event Scaling – Most big bosses only scale in damage, as opposed to mechanics, and that’s up to a maximum amount of players. Thus, you don’t need to pay attention to mechanics, thus zerging.

• Encounter Design and Mechanics – Most mechanics a) don’t utilise, or detriment, other aspects of combat, such as control or buffing, or b) these mechanics can simply be brute-forced by damage.

+1